
Xavram5 |
Dazed reads as...
"The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC."
So, two questions.
1. If I am flanking with a Dazed ally, does he threaten? Would I get the +2 Flank bonus and Sneak attack (if I had it)? My first impulse is to say No, but want to confirm.
2. This is a little more tricky. Creature with 4 attacks goes after a character and something after the first attack causes him to become Dazed. Does he lose the subsequent 3 attacks? Or, since he started the Full Round action prior to becoming Dazed, do the attacks continue?
Thanks!

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1 "Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn."
A Dazed creature can't attack, to it doesn't threaten.
2: When a creature become Dazed it loses all its actions, even if it is in the middle of doing them.
So, someone that is making his iterative attacks lose all the attack he would have done after becoming Dazed.
For creatures that have multiple natural attacks, the situation is somewhat different. Normally the multiple natural attacks are delivered at the same time, there is not a "bite first, then left paw and right paw" sequence. So a creature with multiple natural attacks will deliver all of them (specific creatures can have different attack sequences).

Mysterious Stranger |

I agree with Diego Rossi on this. The only thing I would point out is that in Pathfinder you usually finish one characters turn before moving to the next. There are of course exceptions to the rule like taking an immediate action. But unless the source of the dazed can interrupt the full attack it will not stop the full attack.

Mysterious Stranger |

Does the creature have 5 mouths to bite with? There is no reason that if the creature has multiple natural weapons that any attack would be the first one that hits. If this was a hydra or similar multi-headed creature who is to say which one hit first. All the attacks could have happened simultaneously.
More than likely this is going to be up to the GM.

Wonderstell |

Being dazed would stop the full-attack from continuing.
Here's a FAQ on the subject:
"Limited actions on my turn: If an AOO or other interrupting effect reduces what actions I can take on my turn, does this reduction apply immediately?
Yes, even if it interrupts or limits your in-progress. /.../"
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It being natural attacks does not change this. While you can thematically describe that a tiger pounces into its foe with its bite and both claws simultaneously, the attacks are mechanically speaking happening subsequently.

bbangerter |

It being natural attacks does not change this. While you can thematically describe that a tiger pounces into its foe with its bite and both claws simultaneously, the attacks are mechanically speaking happening subsequently.
This. While a hydra or tiger might make its attacks near simultaneously, in the game mechanics each attack and all its consequences are resolved one at a time. If attack #1 results in the creature being dazed, all other attacks are forfeited.
Likewise an intelligent creature, like a dragon, could make attacks against a target until that target was below 0 (falling to the ground) then continue making attacks on another target. If they were simultaneous the dragon would have to declare where each one of its attacks is going before making any actual rolls. (Technically even an animal level intelligence creature can run its attacks this way too, but a GM might decide a beast stays on the same target till clearly dead/no longer a threat before switching).
The rules tell us this
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

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I've never seen the logic about the "multiple natural" attacks vs iterative attacks. Is there some source rule or FAQ that can back that up?
Knowing how a cat attack, I would say it attack with one or two paws, then gab and bite/rake.
In Pathfinder, generally, they are treated as simultaneous because there is a rule that gives an order of resolution for iterative attacks (and "iterative" isn't a term used in the CRB, AFAIK, so the term uses when speaking of rules are born from outside the RAW).
There is a rule citation that point to the natural attacks being sequential:
You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
If a creature can see how the previous attack goes before choosing who it targets with its next attack, the attacks aren't simultaneous.
On the other hand, I wouldn't allow a pouncing creature to choose different targets for its bite/claw/claw/rake/rake routine.
It should have been something that had to be explained in the Bestiary, as the base races don't have easy access to natural attacks, but it wasn't done.

bbangerter |

In Pathfinder, generally, they are treated as simultaneous because there is a rule that gives an order of resolution for iterative attacks (and "iterative" isn't a term used in the CRB, AFAIK, so the term uses when speaking of rules are born from outside the RAW).
The attacks aren't treated as simultaneous, there just is no defined and required order. A cat can bite/claw/claw, or claw/bite/claw, or claw/claw/bite. Just like a creature using TWF with improved and greater TWF could Main Hand/Main Hand -5/Main Hand -10/Off Hand/Off Hand -5/Off Hand -10, OR Main Hand/Off Hand/Main Hand -5/Off Hand -5/Main Hand -10/Off Hand -10, etc. The iteratives have to be in order, but outside the bounds of the iteratives a creature can choose any order it wants. But they are still sequential.
This is the base rule. Pounce uses the base rules unless there is something in pounce that indicates an exception. The question then is are there any special rules about pounce that change it from the base rule? There are not, but as Java Man pointed out, with a charge you declare a target, in a charge you have a "designated opponent" that you attack.
Edit: Quoting additional rules from the entry for full attacks
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

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This is the base rule. Pounce uses the base rules unless there is something in pounce that indicates an exception. The question then is are there any special rules about pounce that change it from the base rule? There are not, but as Java Man pointed out, with a charge you declare a target, in a charge you have a "designated opponent" that you attack.
I agree with you and Java Man, but I have seen enough lance pounce barbarians arguing (in this forum) that they can switch targets after the first attack to know that not all people share that opinion.