Wise Old Man's page

You won't run into them forever, unless your GM is looking for a way to spike your Slumber.

My hex list would include, Slumber, Misfortune, Cackle, Evil Eye, and perhaps Flight.

And Invoker...well, good luck!

What an astonishing and intriguing class archetype, Isabelle. Thank you. I'm going use the Brazen Deciever as the base class for my Rakshasa heritage Tiefling.

And I will check out the verbal duels as well, thank you ngc.

As I've stated multiple times, I've never had any problems with my GM's and players, because I know when to separate a game from real life to accommodate my groups free time.

Thank you, everyone. I appreciate all of you taking the time give your honest thoughts and opinions. I will try and give you my most helpful answers in your future posts in the most friendliest manner, and I will also defend you with your merits whenever I see that you are being targeted. And I mean it.

Love, power, respect. Peace.

In no way am I a disruptive player. IRL, I'm a super polite, cooperative, and overall friendly person.

I'm not talking about being disruptive, I think if you have a personality problem, it should be dealt outside of game.

I've seen people play evil characters for the sake of wanting to steal from other players and kill them, or just cause shenanigans and they give me an excuses like "That's my alignment. I'm trying to play in character!"

I've also seen players trying to act the scientist for the campaign rules, like when a GM says "There is no astral plane." and players would say "Well, how does teleportation work then? And it wouldn't make sense because of this, this, and this."

And it's like...why are you trying to start this debacle, when it's very unnecessary. The GM puts in rules at the start, that's that. People don't need to justify in their own minds why it wouldn't work.

Those are disruptive players.

I hold back all the time to give my respected players a chance to have the spot light, so everyone can shine equally. Because it feels good to shine.

But I don't like how people are judged based on what kind of character builds they want to make.
I'm very honest about what kind of character I want in the beginning of the game, and I tell my GM's,
"I want to play an admixture wizard"
"No. Pick something else."
"I want to play a summoner synthesist"
"No. Pick something else."

Even when I'm researching a build and show them the link for my resources and FAQ's. They say "I don't know...Would it be okay with you if you just play a fighter?"

And then other player's jump in "You can't make these characters man! You're being disruptive!"

"How am I being disruptive??"

And the crazy thing is that if one of the guys is a closer friend to the GM, he let's him play like a slumber hexcrafter build. And they're always laughing and giggling about it.

It's frustrating. I'm all honest and nice about it and I get burned for it. It's not cool. And I see that it happens all the time. Favoritism.

I don't want to subjected to polite politics on a gaming table. And it's not easy finding a gaming table near me.
So it's "Too bad so sad for me"?
That's not fair.

Get a party rule set book out there, so people can play their favorite builds on an equal level and have fun.

I mean...if you actually read what I put instead of having the knee jerk reaction you did, alot of things you said were addressed in my first post.

...what kind of beef jerky did you need?

I just want put out my thoughts out on this subject matter.

I think a lot of people mistreat players who want to optimize their character's.

This is a game, and should be treated as such. Everyone comes together at the table to play, some people like it for the story, and some like it for the mechanics. There is no reason for people to judge other's based on personal preference or play style. There is no reason for people to think they have the right to demoralize a power gamer for wanting to make his own cool character or maybe even copy a build from the internet. There is no hierarchy when it comes to gaming. It's just people sitting at a table.

Now a lot of you might be thinking
"It ruins the game for everyone if one player can simply do everything and the other players are just looking to interact with the role playing aspect of it. People are there to have fun, not to cheat. Simple as that."

That is the most derogatory answer. People are there *to have fun*, just because the majority of the groups idea of fun doesn't correlate with the individual, doesn't mean they should cast him out, or try and "convert" them into a more "understanding" player.

In fact, you can learn a lot from them, because they actually have the patience to invest in the games principles, rather than narrative actions.
In another fact, power gamers are responsible for most of the errata, to balance the game even further. Power gamers are a developers best friend, because they get everyone's ideas flowing.

It's the GM's responsibility to create a game for everyone, not just for the story.

Some of you may be asking: "Well, what about the new GM's? What are they suppose to do against an experienced power gamer!?"

Simple. Compromise.
Nothing is true, everything is permitted.
Again, we come together for everyone to enjoy the imagination. GM's make up everything, including the probability of the games outcome. There is has no 100% random chance when you're telling the story. Don't be afraid to tell it a little differently.

"What about fighting monster's and CR??"

If you notice, all the monster's have about average hit points listed, but they have the total hit dice, max them out or suit it to your liking on how you think will fair against the party. Use the monster's feats that come with the monster. You'd be surprised to find that monster's are actually a lot stronger when used at their full potential.

Practice outside of game. One the smartest GM's I know pits our party against an enemy outside of the game before we start, and we have this unofficial players vs big bad monster battle, so he could challenge our character's survivability, then ends it prematurely and starts the game. I always have a blast at his games because he challenges his ideas with the players.

------

I say this because whenever I post something on the advice or rules board about my interests in optimization, there's always someone with a bag full of resentment looking to down me. And I think that's not right, and perhaps the people at paizo should take it a little more seriously in addressing this issue in their books and understand that it is a type of bullying.

People should understand that's it's not a one way world, and that respect goes a long way.

Yes, all ranger combat styles allow you feats without the prerequisites, as with th faithful: sarenrae let's you have Whirlwind Attack at level 6.

You mentioned "tattoo dip" I am assuming you are wanting to dip tattooed and crossblooded sorcerer. There are many threads on these boards talking about this. The consensus is that it doesn't work for pfs and probably doesn't work in general, but there is debate there. Talk to you GM to see what he thinks.

You mention +3 evocation spells. Thasilonian magic replaces the regular evocation school, so you don't get the +1 from evocation school and than +2 more from thasilonian, it is just +2 from thasilonian. I think this was covered up thread but it may have been missed.

I'm aware of the tattoo dip.

The regular 3 comes from a high intelligence, and the bracketed 3rd spell slot is when you specialize in a school, from Evocation, as Rysky mentioned, plus the Sin Magic.

----

Ouch. Right from the lead designer. :P

I don't want the sin magic for extra fireballs per say, I want it for extra evocation spells.

The best way to learn in my opinion (braces himself for attack) is to learn how to break the game. Challenge yourself in making the best class builds. Be a regular of the Advice and Rules boards here on Paizo, look at everyones answers and ask more curious questions. You will find yourself referencing through all kinds of material on your trusty SRD.

It's astonishing what you'll find. I went from knowing the basic rules, to understanding the core mechanics of Rules as Written and Rules as Interpreted in just under a year.

Also, it would help if you have a close friend to talk to with your findings, to try and disipher the rules together.

Wise Old Man wrote:

Penumbral Shadow wrote:

Wise Old Man wrote:

My only concern is that ertw's class and it's updated version is ridiculously broken, especially everything about the spells (my god the spells). I like where you're going with it, the feint abilities, the class abilities..but it looks like it's trying to be better than all the core classes.

As somebody who has played the 3.5 beguiler a great deal and extensively playtested this conversion, you're way off the mark. The beguiler, for all its abilities and features, is vastly outclassed by every other 9 level caster in the game (well maybe all except the druid). I've talked about this before in this very thread, so I'll just link my comments from earlier to point out the difference between a beguiler's spells and any other caster. I'll also link to my first hand experience with how beguilers play in comparison to wizards, sorcerers, or clerics.

I'd like to take your word for it, though it just seems way too powerful. Although this may be a direct conversion from 3.5, a lot of people would state that pretty much everything was broken in 3.5. Though that's not the soul reason of my argument, there is simply too many great class abilities compiled into one class i.e. Trapfinding, Free Feints, Order Powers, Surprise Casting, Cloaked Casting, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Hide in Plain Sight, as well as a plethora of spells known and all the way to 9th level without preparation and with Savvy Preparation!? That is crazy talk. Comparing this class to any other class in Pathfinder doesn't even make sense.

The idea that everything in 3.5 was broken is absolutely ludicrous, if it's true we'd better throw out everything in pathfinder since the system is built on the bones of 3.5. Regardless I'm going to choose to rely on my at-table experience with...

I wasn't trying to offend you, good sir. Just stating the things I also have some experience with, no need to get rancorous. I can express my opinion on matters as well. I can just as easily say that I playtested this particular conversion ever since ertw's first release one year ago, with multiple groups, but I would be a damned liar. I can also say that my opinion plays a pivotal role because David Noonan, the designer of the players handbook 2 came to me for advice on how to create the beguiler, but I'd be a liar and a nanny. So your word is as good as mine. 3.5 was arguably unplayable because of it's broken language, that's partly why Pathfinder was born, to create a balanced system.

Ever heard of Pun-Pun?

Wise Old Man wrote:

My only concern is that ertw's class and it's updated version is ridiculously broken, especially everything about the spells (my god the spells). I like where you're going with it, the feint abilities, the class abilities..but it looks like it's trying to be better than all the core classes.

As somebody who has played the 3.5 beguiler a great deal and extensively playtested this conversion, you're way off the mark. The beguiler, for all its abilities and features, is vastly outclassed by every other 9 level caster in the game (well maybe all except the druid). I've talked about this before in this very thread, so I'll just link my comments from earlier to point out the difference between a beguiler's spells and any other caster. I'll also link to my first hand experience with how beguilers play in comparison to wizards, sorcerers, or clerics.

I'd like to take your word for it, though it just seems way too powerful. Although this may be a direct conversion from 3.5, a lot of people would state that pretty much everything was broken in 3.5. Though that's not the soul reason of my argument, there is simply too many great class abilities compiled into one class i.e. Trapfinding, Free Feints, Order Powers, Surprise Casting, Cloaked Casting, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Hide in Plain Sight, as well as a plethora of spells known and all the way to 9th level without preparation and with Savvy Preparation!? That is crazy talk. Comparing this class to any other class in Pathfinder doesn't even make sense.

I'd say at least make it some kind of balanced.
-If you're going to put up to 9th level spells, then at least make the BAB that of a 9th level caster. I'd recommend to bring it down up to 6th level spells if you want the 1/2 BAB.
-Make the spells known/per day that of an Inquisitor.
-Get rid of all the 3.5 class abilities, and replace them with a fewer/more refined abilities that speak potential.

Sagacity (Ex)
Hiding in plain sight, beguilers are masters of charm and trickery, using her wit more so than the sword or magic, to bend the laws of perception in her favour. At the start of each day, a beguiler gains a number of sagacity points equal to her Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). A beguiler spends sagacity to accomplish deeds (see below), and regains panache in the following way.

Each time a beguiler rolls a 5, 10, 15, or 20 with a d20 on any attack rolls, saves, and skill checks, she regains 1 sagacity point.

Deeds: Beguilers spend sagacity points to accomplish deeds. Most deeds grant the beguiler a momentary bonus or effect, but some provide longer-lasting effects. Some deeds remain in effect while the beguiler has at least 1 sagacity point, but do not require expending sagacity to be maintained. A beguiler can only perform deeds of her level or lower. Unless otherwise noted, a deed can be performed multiple successive times, as long as the beguiler has or spends the required number of sagacity points to perform the deed.

Swift Feint (Ex): At 1st level, as a standard action, a beguiler can spend 1 sagacity point to purposefully miss a creature she could make a melee attack against with a wielded light weapon. When she does, the creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC until the start of the beguiler's next turn. At 11th level, this becomes a swift action.

Savvy Preparation (Ex): At 3rd level, a beguiler can spend 2 sagacity points as a swift action, to prepare a single spell one level lower than her highest caster level.

Cunning Casting (Ex): At 7th level, a beguiler can spend 3 sagacity points as a standard action, to gain the effects of the Silent Spell feat for a number of rounds equal to her Intelligence modifier (minimum 1).

etc..

I have been looking for a class like the beguiler for a very long time, since I skipped from 3.0 D&D to Pathfinder. I really love everything about it, using magic and deception together sounds like a lot of fun. My only concern is that ertw's class and it's updated version is ridiculously broken, especially everything about the spells (my god the spells). I like where you're going with it, the feint abilities, the class abilities..but it looks like it's trying to be better than all the core classes.

-Make the spells known/per day like the bard or the inquisitor
-Get rid of the Feint abilities except for the last one, only if they have Greater Feint by that time.
-Give less than a few key class abilities, which means getting rid of everything else. I'd keep Charlatan's Cant, Order Powers, Savvy Preparation, and Swift Feint.

It looks like all the archetypes also have a lot of special class abilities. Look at the paizo archetypes and see how rich yours is compared them...less is more.
-Maybe put the Silent Spell & Still Spell as an archetype.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to knock it, I really love all your ideas, but my GM (being the rules lawyer that he is) would never allow this, and that saddens me. :(

It just looks too good to be true.

Sleight of Hand

Cutpurse (Archetype)
Measure the Mark (Ex): When a cutpurse makes a Sleight of Hand check to take something from a creature, the target makes its Perception check before the rogue makes her Sleight of Hand check, and the rogue knows the Perception check result. She can decide whether or not to make the check based on the results of the target's Perception check. If the rogue elects not to make the check, she can make a Bluff check, opposed by the target's Sense Motive, to prevent the target from noticing the attempt. This ability replaces trapfinding.

Stab and Grab (Ex): At 3rd level, as a full-round action, a cutpurse can make an attack and also make a Sleight of Hand check to steal something from the target of the attack. If the attack deals sneak attack damage, the rogue can use Sleight of Hand to take an item from the creature during combat; otherwise this ability can only be used in a surprise round before the target has acted. If the attack is successful, the target takes a –5 penalty on the Perception check to notice the theft. This ability replaces trap sense.

A) Rogue Talents
Deft Palm (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check to conceal a weapon while holding it in plain sight, even while she is being observed.

Underhanded* (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. Furthermore, if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn't know about, she does not have to roll sneak attack damage, and the sneak attack deals maximum damage. A rogue can only use the underhanded talent a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 0).

Weapon Snatcher (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check in place of a combat maneuver check when attempting to disarm an opponent.

B) Ninja Tricks
Hidden Weapons (Ex): A ninja with this ability can easily conceal weapons on her body. The ninja adds her level on opposed Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. In addition, she can draw hidden weapons as a move action, instead of as a standard action

C) Abilities that Compliment the Sleight of Hand:

Bandit (Archetype)
Ambush (Ex): At 4th level, a bandit becomes fully practiced in the art of ambushing. When she acts in the surprise round, she can take a move action, standard action, and swift action during the surprise round, not just a move or standard action. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): A rogue with this talent can select a single terrain from the ranger's favored terrain list. She is a master at hiding in that terrain, and while within that terrain, she can use the Stealth skill to hide, even while being observed. A rogue may take this advanced talent more than once, each time selecting a different terrain from the favored terrain list.

Convincing Lie (Ex): When a rogue with this talent lies, she creates fabrications so convincing that others treat them as truth. When a rogue with this talent successfully uses the Bluff skill to convince someone that what she is saying is true, if that individual is questioned later about the statement or story, that person uses the rogue's Bluff skill modifier to convince the questioner, rather than his own. If his Bluff skill modifier is better than the rogue's, the individual can use his own modifier and gain a +2 bonus on any check to convince others of the lie. This effect lasts for a number of days equal to 1/2 the rogue's level + the rogue's Charisma modifier.

Coax Information (Ex): A rogue with this talent can use Bluff or Diplomacy in place of Intimidate to force an opponent to act friendly toward her.

Rhetorical Flourish
You rapidly change topics and employ confusing rhetoric to distract people from your true intent.

Prerequisites: Cha 13, Persuasive.
Benefit: When using the Diplomacy skill to make a request or change a creature's attitude, you can use verbal misdirection. To do so, make a Bluff check against that creature. If you succeed, you gain a +4 bonus on your next Diplomacy check against that creature if the check is made within the next minute. If you fail by 5 or more, you instead take a –2 penalty on your next Diplomacy check against that creature.
Alternatively, you can use this feat to retry a single failed Diplomacy check against a creature. You take a –4 penalty on your Bluff check when using Rhetorical Flourish in this way. If you succeed, rather than gaining this feat's normal bonus, you can retry your last Diplomacy check against the creature if that check was made in the past minute.

Disarming Threat Deed (Panache)
Even your threats are curiously charming.

Prerequisite(s): Amateur Swashbuckler or panache class feature; Diplomacy 2 ranks, Intimidate 2 ranks.
Benefit: When you succeed at an Intimidate check to force an opponent to act friendly toward you, you can spend 1 panache point to cause the target to regard you with indifference when the duration of the effect expires. A target influenced in this manner is unlikely to report you to authorities.
Normal: An opponent forced to act friendly toward you by Intimidate becomes unfriendly when the duration expires, and is likely to report you to the authorities.

As well as the
Shadowdancer
&
Assassin
&
Arcane Trickster

I will be starting in a new campaign very soon and my GM said it would be appropriate if I played as an Investigator, but I'm not really a fan of the Alchemy, even though some say that it is effective at higher levels. I'm more interested in using the talents and skills, so I was thinking of going for the Sleuth and multi-classing to Swashbuckler for a mix of Inspiration, Luck, and Panache.
I'm not quite sure which archetype would be more effective for my Investigator, I'm toying with...

• Inspired Blade
-Inspired Panache

• Musketeer
-Musketeer Instruction
-Quick Clear

• Mysterious Avenger
-Secret Identity
-Greater Charmed Life

• Picaroon
-Two Weapon Finesse

They all seem pretty advantageous.

I have always been fascinated with the Deft Palm talent because of its passive-contradictory behaviour, and now with Disarming Threat Deed. I've never had a chance to use them, so I'd like to incorporate those two into my character. Also, if there are any other abilities like those two that are contradictory, please let me know.

The talents I was thinking of suiting into my character are,

• Investigator
-Expanded Inspiration
-Inspired Intelligence
-Underworld Inspiration
-Quick Study
-Perspective Tracking
-Empathy
-Eidetic Recollection
-Inspired Alertness
-Inspired Intimidator

• Rogue
-Coax Information
-Convincing Liar

I've marked down the "acing" skills from the Investigator's class skills.

Acrobatics *
Appraise
Bluff /
Climb *
Craft
Diplomacy /
Disable Device /
Disguise /
Escape Artist *
Heal /
Intimidate /
Knowledge (All) /
Linguistics /
Perception /
Perform
Profession /
Sense Motive /
Slight of Hand /
Spellcraft /
Stealth
Use Magic Device
* Those Marked with an asterisk are from the Sleuth's Daring class feature.
/ Those marked with the slash are from the Expanded Inspiration, Inspired Intelligence, and Underworld Inspiration Investigator talents.

The attributes I will be focused on are Int, Cha, Dex in that order.

Again, I want to try and get the most out of skills and talents.

Unfortunately that is an Advanced Ninja Trick, something that a Rogue does not qualify for, however a Ninja on the other hand may choose to attain the Advanced Rogue Talents.

In other words, I wish...

Just wanted to stop by and mention that, while Seraph oozes cool, it is an injustice to Chinese boxing to say that what he is practicing there is Wing Chun. The movements are far too circular, too far from his centre, his stance is all wrong and I would hardly call anything in that clip chi sao. In Wing Chun, you never stop touching your opponent. Imho, that is probably a long hand style, perhaps something like Hung Gar.

As a practitioner of the art, I am pleased to see that it is gaining appreciation in the movie community but even the best example I have witnessed on screen (Robert Downey Jr.'s use of it in the Sherlock Holmes films) is still not completely accurate because Wing Chun is so small, tight and in close that it doesn't make for very good theatrics. My Sifu calls Wing Chun "fighting in a phone booth" and, as such, it needs to be exaggerated on screen to the point where it's not really Wing Chun anymore.

A truly skilled practitioner of Chinese boxing will tie your arms up, hurt you 6 times and have you begging for mercy while barely moving their arms from their centre. The farthest your arm gets from your body is tan sao, where your arm is extended chest high from the shoulder in front of you with your elbow bent so your forearm is protecting your centre and ready to deflect or catch attacks as needed. To most people, Wing Chun would probably look like little more than a slap fight with one guy crowding the other guy out, possibly appearing to hump his leg. It certainly does not involve kicking to the head or circular strikes made with an arm that is fully extended from the body.

No suggestions on how to achieve what you want in game, I'm just being insufferable over here :)

Well, if you want to get technical...*laughs*

Neo and Seraph are both MMA Master's, saying that they aren't properly using the form is an understatement because they're using all sorts of martial art styles combined.

I was merely using Wing Chun as good example of Sticky Hands for my build, constantly parrying and striking. I used the video to emphasize what I meant.

Going 6 to 8 levels in Slayer after starting 3 levels in Swashbuckler would be quite beneficial.

Slayer gets Deadly Range and Ranger Combat Style as Talents.

You can also select Firearm Training and Grit rogue talent from your Slayer Talents. Grit (Talent) allows you to get Amateur Gunslinger with one level 1 Deed of your choice as well as one Grit Feat of your choice.

Swashbuckler and Slayer both have full BAB, plus panache/grit go together with your Sword and Pistol, as well getting talents, with sneak attacks.

A flavorful path.