How to become a Pathfinder "expert".


Advice


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First of all, I apologize because I made slightly similar thread a while back about the sheer amount of Pathfinder rules to read. I just wanted to make a new topic since this is a bit different and it's always good to get new perspectives.

So 15 years ago or so I played a lot of 3E D&D, though I never DM'ed. Then, around 5 years ago we had a slight resurgence with Pathfinder, so I've played a bit of that too. Now I'd like to get back into it, and it seems like I'm the one willing to GM. So I'd like to take it seriously and use Pathfinder to its fullest extent.

Since it's been so long I thought I would start from scratch and read the Core Rulebook (I read the Inner Sea World Guide recently just for fun). The problem is, I've got just enough residual 3E and Pathfinder knowledge that it makes trying to read through the Core Rulebook frustrating. I struggle with reading through the stuff I already know, but I don't want to skip anything and risk missing things I don't.

How would you recommend dealing with that? I'd like to get the basics down solid so I can start exploring things like the Advanced Players Guide, Ultimate Combat/Magic, some of the more advanced stuff we never touched back in the day. Anyway, I should be asleep so I'm rambling. Thanks for the help!


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I spent like 10 months cramming www.d20pfsrd.com into my head. It is pure mechanics, with none of the fluff from the books.

Honestly, its been really helpful. I'm DMing my own game with some players, new and old, who are really enjoying it. The nice thing about d20 is that if you need to hunt something down on the fly you can, without flipping through 8 different books and hundreds of pages.

D20 is a big jumble of all the books, but they are sorted by common elements. Having ONE place to look for feats, uses for skills, GM rules, and etc is nice instead of plowing through chapter after chapter about feats across a ton of books.


Expert? After playing Pathfinder in the GM chair for 3 years, I'm still just winging things with the occasional reference. A lot of things are still the same as 3.5, and most of the changes are found in spells and combat maneuvers. Aside from that, you should be fine.


ShroudedInLight wrote:

I spent like 10 months cramming www.d20pfsrd.com into my head. It is pure mechanics, with none of the fluff from the books.

Honestly, its been really helpful. I'm DMing my own game with some players, new and old, who are really enjoying it. The nice thing about d20 is that if you need to hunt something down on the fly you can, without flipping through 8 different books and hundreds of pages.

D20 is a big jumble of all the books, but they are sorted by common elements. Having ONE place to look for feats, uses for skills, GM rules, and etc is nice instead of plowing through chapter after chapter about feats across a ton of books.

Thanks! That site seems super helpful. I bought the PFRPG RD app on my iPad which seems similar, but I like the way D20 is laid out. I'd really like to GM mostly from my iPad as much as possible. Planning to build a PDF library all in one place.

I also found a pair of apps called Game Master (for planning campaigns) and Fight Club 3 (for building characters/NPCs) which seem really cool and work together. Sorry to go off on a tangent.

mourge40k wrote:
Expert? After playing Pathfinder in the GM chair for 3 years, I'm still just winging things with the occasional reference. A lot of things are still the same as 3.5, and most of the changes are found in spells and combat maneuvers. Aside from that, you should be fine.

Haha, yeah, that's why expert was in quotes.


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I'd start with the classes first. There are several things in the classes that have been changed. Look at the Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, Monks, etc. A lot of them have features not available from 3.X, so reviewing what these changes are will make you current. (It also supports full-level classes, though in some cases, dipping or multiclassing can be beneficial overall.)

Then, scope over some of the newer classes, such as Inquisitors, Alchemists, Summoners, Maguses, etc.

Next would be the new elements of combat. Combat Maneuvers are going to be the biggest change, given how the implementation of CMB and CMD drastically change how Combat Maneuvers operate in comparison of 3.X.

Following that, looking at some of the equipment in the game, both general and magical. Crafting rules are also very different from what 3.X does (i.e. there's no longer an EXP cost to create items, as one example), so familiarizing yourself with that will help speed that process along.

I'd also make sure you look over the FAQ page on this site, especially for the Core Rulebook, so as to keep yourself up-to-date on the intent behind mechanics. One of the most common misconceptions I see on these boards is "Using 2 Weapons = TWF," when there is a FAQ that says you're only doing TWF if you're spending the action to get extra attacks.

Otherwise, you can probably carry the rest over from 3.X


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SORD PF is your friend.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

I'd start with the classes first. There are several things in the classes that have been changed. Look at the Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, Monks, etc. A lot of them have features not available from 3.X, so reviewing what these changes are will make you current. (It also supports full-level classes, though in some cases, dipping or multiclassing can be beneficial overall.)

Then, scope over some of the newer classes, such as Inquisitors, Alchemists, Summoners, Maguses, etc.

Next would be the new elements of combat. Combat Maneuvers are going to be the biggest change, given how the implementation of CMB and CMD drastically change how Combat Maneuvers operate in comparison of 3.X.

Following that, looking at some of the equipment in the game, both general and magical. Crafting rules are also very different from what 3.X does (i.e. there's no longer an EXP cost to create items, as one example), so familiarizing yourself with that will help speed that process along.

I'd also make sure you look over the FAQ page on this site, especially for the Core Rulebook, so as to keep yourself up-to-date on the intent behind mechanics. One of the most common misconceptions I see on these boards is "Using 2 Weapons = TWF," when there is a FAQ that says you're only doing TWF if you're spending the action to get extra attacks.

Otherwise, you can probably carry the rest over from 3.X

That's definitely helpful, thanks! I didn't even know about the FAQ, that's great.

Technotrooper wrote:

SORD PF is your friend.

Oh nice, thanks. I think I'll pick that up.


I would say learning all the core classes at least well help a lot.

You don't need to know every feat and sub system, but knowing THAT the books exist is going to help you a lot more. Look through the catalog of resources and know what the titles of the books are. If you or the players find yourself in need of certain abilities, or if you want to see if there are more options, then knowing what sources are out there will be more useful than memorizing it all.


There are some notable changes from 3.5 to Pathfinder listed here - not sure if that's useful to someone with 3.0 experience.


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

IMHO, the most helpful thing for someone new to Pathfinder and new to DMing in general is to use a published scenario or adventure path.

RotRL (Rise of the Runelords) is an excellent choice. The Anniversary Edition brings everything together in one place, and there is an excellent forum here to get advice from others who have run it or who are running it now - like me. I'm just starting chapter 3, with PCs reaching 7th level, and it has been a blast!

You can also find a few free one-off adventures here on the Paizo site that you could run if you're not ready to start a years-long campaign.

As far as knowing the rules, having a DM screen can help by presenting a condensed 4-page summary of most of the key rules you need. Paizo also sells a set of cards, a double deck of rules summaries that I find helpful from time to time. Not to mention their condition cards and critical hit and critical failure decks.

Contributor

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You're an expert if you know enough to help someone else have fun at the table.


somewhere there is a document of what changed from 3.5 to Pathfinder. Ah, Matthew D posted the link, good.

You most likely have a good concept of how to run a game. Unless you have rules lawyers at the table, wing it, make note of things you weren't sure of how to handle and look them up after the game. If there is a disagreement on how to handle a situation, delegate the research of the rule to one of the players but don't spend more than 2 minutes deciding how you are going to do it. Make a ruling, move on, look it up later and decide if you want to go by the rules or your house ruling going forward.

I've been playing 3.5 and PF for over 10 years, and an still by no means an expert.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm going to come right out and say that you really do not need to be a full expert. Know the core classes and the APG classes. If you are in an ongoing campaign, know the classes and archetypes that your characters are playing.

If you're GMing PFS with a rotating cast of builds, assume that players are experts in their own classes. If they have a weird class or archetype, have them explain it to you at the beginning of the game so that you can understand.

I've had people explain to me their level one or two occult builds, and then just played, looking stuff up afterwards so that I'm more knowledgeable when I play with them again.

My philosophy is that it's more important for me to understand tactics, monsters, the motivations of the NPCs and pacing. If I can hold up my end of the story, I trust the players to hold up theirs.

Hmm


Have you considered taking a level in it? Not what I'd normally go for, but I won't judge.

Oh. But yeah. I generally wouldn't say being an expert is necessary. Proficient is fine.


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Hmm wrote:
I'm going to come right out and say that you really do not need to be a full expert.

This right here.

You'll go nuts trying to read the Core Rulebook and 20 or so other hard-cover rulebooks and several dozen soft-cover companions and guides books. I haven't counted, but I'm pretty sure that's oh, say, like a million pages. Maybe two million.

Nobody has time for that, unless you're a speed reader with a photographic memory. If you are, you're probably not here asking this question, so I'll assume you're not.

So don't even do it.

Just read the rules for generating characters. Don't read every race and class, just look at a few to see what they have. HP, Skills, racial abilities, class abilities, BAB, Saves. That's about it. Generate a couple characters (think of some YOU played in the past and create them in Pathfinder as level 1 characters). This should only take a few hours.

As questions come up, search the forums for answers, or ask on the forums if you can't find the answer by searching.

Now you're ready to have everyone make characters. Read the races and classes THEY picked - there is no need to read all the rest at this time. Read the skills they put points into. Read the spells they started with. Read the feats they selected. Read the equipment they chose. If you have questions, search the forums or ask if you can't find the answer by searching.

Now you're ready to play. Before you do, read the combat section. Pick an adventure from any publisher but I'd start with a level 1 adventure published by Paizo fairly recently (earlier ones might still have 3.5 rules in them). For example, get their latest Adventure Path and start there. Whatever adventure you choose, read it. If's it's a whole adventure path, just read the first book for now. If you see an encounter with some monster coming up in the first session or two, read that monster in the Bestiaries. If you see situations that require rules you don't know, look them up. Find answers here if you need to.

You can do all of this in a week if you have the time. It's really only scratching the surface of the Pathfinder rules but that's all you need to get started. You'll learn the rest over time until you really become an expert.

In any case, this is MUCH easier than reading millions of pages up front, especially since you won't use about 92.73% of those rules in your first adventure.


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I am throwing my voice in with DM_Blake and the others, focus on the mechanics you will need before going from cover to cover in a certain book order.
When I started here's what I did:
#1 Combat Rules in and out. This is a pretty dense set of rules that everyone has to interact with. Getting things wrong here can have pretty big impacts at the table.
#2 Classes of your players: read through them yourself also take a look at the Guide to the Guides so you are familiar with the optimized options in those classes.
#3 Building an Encounter rules: I read these then looked at an Adventure Path so I could see how it added in. (Not Perfect but it helps)

Last I went to YouTube to look at some DM's in action. The best I've seen so far is Matt Mercer from Critical Role. They play 5e now but started in PF.


Thanks for all the replies! They've all been super helpful. I'll put the idea of reading the Core book cover to cover out of my head.

Silver Crusade

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Really there's only one way to master pathfinder.

100 push ups
100 sit ups
100 squats
10km run

Every
SINGLE
DAY

And yeah, aside from that, just read over what's interesting to you and learn that, no one's an expert, not even me, and I can build an epic hero who can defeat every monster with one punch.


N. Jolly wrote:

Really there's only one way to master pathfinder.

100 push ups
100 sit ups
100 squats
10km run

Every
SINGLE
DAY

And yeah, aside from that, just read over what's interesting to you and learn that, no one's an expert, not even me, and I can build an epic hero who can defeat every monster with one punch.

This sounds doable if I can subtract the 100 push ups, 100 sit ups, and the 100 squats. I can definitely pull that off!

Oh, and the run, I'm gonna have to drop the run.


The reason why reference material exists is so you don't have to remember it. Learn through playing and dedicate study to more serious things. ;-)

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If you can play well enough to have fun, then that's all the expertise you need. Any expertise you gain beyond that is just adding depth.

-Skeld


All you need is a montage.


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The best way to learn in my opinion (braces himself for attack) is to learn how to break the game. Challenge yourself in making the best class builds. Be a regular of the Advice and Rules boards here on Paizo, look at everyones answers and ask more curious questions. You will find yourself referencing through all kinds of material on your trusty SRD.

It's astonishing what you'll find. I went from knowing the basic rules, to understanding the core mechanics of Rules as Written and Rules as Interpreted in just under a year.

Also, it would help if you have a close friend to talk to with your findings, to try and disipher the rules together.


Don't.


born_of_fire wrote:
All you need is a montage.

That's exactly what I need. Cool 80's pump up music over shots of me staring at an iPad as pages fly off a calendar. Done and done.

captain yesterday wrote:
Don't.

This is probably the easiest advice to follow.

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