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Wow! I didn't expect this many responses!

Thank you Rysky for the previous thread link! Thank you, both James and Mark, for responding. I'm super excited for the release of the core game and for the upcoming GMG! Gladdened to hear there will be a chapter on how to change stuff like Alignment. Can't wait to read the whole book!

Despite the modular nature of PF2, I'm always somewhat hesitant to remove or adjust mechanics that touch on such a wide breadth of the game. Too afraid to break everything. That's why it's nice to see official suggestions on how to adjust it from people who have a much deeper understanding of the system than myself.

As for the rest of the thread- My short answer is: I save myself from having any of these alignment arguments by removing it entirely in the vast majority of my games. I most often use a home-brew setting. If alignment is too integrated into a system be easily removed, I try to adjust all the words away from moral and ethical concepts.


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I was wondering if there was going to be official suggestions on how to remove it. That won't be the case. I'll still be doing it for my own game. Most likely by divorcing the verbiage of Alignment from ethics and morality. Again, don't want to start a debate about Alignment nor it's usefulness. Those have been done to death and back again.

My group and I are extremely excited for PF2nd and that's what matters.


From James himself! That answers that! Ahahahaha! Thank you for the response.

EDIT to respond to Jame's further explanation: Completely understandable with Alignment baked into the rules and setting. I've been watching the "World as We Know It" stream since posting this question and it's quite clearly baked into the nature of various regions/themes as explained by the the Undead answer.


This is an extremely early question as the Gamemastery Guide isn't due to next year and the finalized core rules haven't even launched yet. I ask because I absolutely loathe Alignment. While I'm extremely excited for Pathfinder 2nd as a whole, the level of integration of Alignment (see Champions) concerns me. I hope the modular nature of PF2nd will make it easy enough to remove/ignore Alignment.

I don't mean for this thread to discuss the various aspects of Alignment, nor it's basis as metaphysical forces in the setting. I'm just wondering if the removal of Alignment from PF2nd has been discussed by the Paizo team.


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PF2 isn't as math complex as PF1, which I think is a good thing. Only a few of my players enjoyed wrangling up all the floating modifiers and tracking all the different numbers to get them as high as possible.

It's more meaty than 5e though. I love the new action economy and the new monster designs. "Everything is a feat" is kind of confusing but I find that players have more available to them to customize their characters than 5e.

Also: Can't go wrong with supporting Pazio. Pazio pumps out quality adventure content, character options and other goodness monthly. I really hope finalized PF2 wins over some of the ol' PF1 grognards and all of the people burned by the Playtest.

So... Yeah, check it out when it's out.


The locked door scenario was used twice when "Fail Forward" was first introduced to me. The first scenario was trying to save a good dragon from an evil princess. If the Rogue beat the DC then they unlocked the door before the princess sacrificed the dragon. If they failed the DC, they unlocked the door but the dragon had been sacrificed. No matter what, they unlocked a locked door but the narrative cost was huge.

The second was trying to unlock a door while avoiding notice by a guard. If they succeeded on the DC, they unlocked the door silently. If they failed, they unlocked the door but the guards were shouting an alarm. Sure, the second scenario would have worked the same way if the lockpick roll failed and thus required the team to bash down the door.

These examples showed me that it was largely better to think of the reasons why the players were generating tests instead of the binary "this door has a DC of 15, do they unlock the door or fail to unlock the door?"

However, by the same merits, I'm not really sure the first example counts as failing forward. Their ultimate goal is rescuing the dragon, not unlocking a door. If they failed to save the dragon but still opened a door, I'm pretty sure the players will still feel like they failed and didn't go forward.


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Greylurker wrote:

I wanted a better version of 1E.

at this point it's pretty clear I'm not going to get that so my best option is to steal a couple of things that I feel work well and be done with it.

Mark also talked about survey responses that said they wanted changes to be reverted back to 1e, such as the Bard and Sorcerer. The 10% of people who responded that they wanted it to be "like 1e" tended towards that same answer across each question phrased that way. Those sorts of changes are pretty likely to stay.


Mark pointed out on yesterday's stream that, since the system is so easy to modify, coming up with variant rules for books like the game mastery guide is much easier than PF1. Adding Half or no automatic progression or adding AMB are prime changes likely to be found in that guide.

I love how easy it should be to house rule up Ancestry variants for my personal setting and archetypes to reflect the factions/classes in it.


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Goblin Scuttle is level 9, but Skittering Scuttle is also level 9 and requires Goblin Scuttle as a pre-req. Can't help but feel one of those numbers are off.


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I do hope most of the Ancestries mentioned in the Survey make it into subsequent books, including Pixie and Centaur. They don't have to be Large creatures. Plus, horses are awkward on stairs but a sentient humanoid does not have to be. Dealing with the animal lower half would make for interesting dungoneering challenges.


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I'd prefer if Paladin's were tied to knightly orders and their Oaths. Such orders and oaths could be tied to the deities, countries or alignments. Even Hellknights could be factored in that way.


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The fighter is billed as a master of weapons in the Playtest. Someone who can perform impossible feats with weapons that are matched by no other. Athletics and feats allow for several interesting melee fighter actions. There are several melee options to use the Open -> Press and Enhancement systems. While the power of any of this is arguable, they are still far more interesting than what is on offer for a ranged weapon specialist.

Other systems, including PF 1e, allow for daring feats of Archery. Archer PF1 Fighters can choose one trick shot to Sunder, Feint or Disarm at third level. After 11th, they can bull rush, trip or grapple too. 5e Battlemasters can push, trip, intimidate enemies or command allies while shooting.

What do PF2nd Ranged Weapon Fighters get?

Baseline- Only three really useful actions. Stride, Strike and reload if using a crossbow or sling. Most battlemats tend to be within 50 feet, so Longbows are at quite the disadvantage. Should have a backup melee weapon, even though we want to be using our favoured ranged weapon. Can't use our crowning baseline feature Attack of Opportunity.

1st level- Point-Blank Shot: Only feat useful for a ranged weapon user. An Open and Stance attack for those systems. Removes the volley penalty for Longbows or gives +2 damage to other weapons. An interesting feat if we use the Open-Press or Stance systems. Feels like a feat tax otherwise.

2nd level- Assisting Shot: Only feat useful for a ranged weapon user. Using Assist at weapon range. Opens up another action for tactical usage. Fairly interesting.

4th level- Double Shot: Reload fighters don't get anything at this level. Might as well multi-class. Bow users, declare Strike on two targets for better bonuses. Doesn't apply multi penalty so third declared strike is at -5. If you weren't bored of declaring Strike for four levels, you can now use a different name. The new Ranger action is more interesting. Boring.

6th level- Exotic Weapon Training: Want to throw Shuriken or use a Halfling Sling? Go ahead.

Improved Bravery: If something fears you out at range, you can be less scared. Boring but might be useful.

Triple Shot: Using a Crossbow? Might as well ignore this tier too. Thought Double shot was boring? Add to it by declaring Strike three times under a different name. More powerful than three strikes? Yes. More interesting? Nope!

8th level- Incredible Aim: More interesting than Double and Triple Shot. Add another action to Strike to ignore concealed/screened/cover by 2 or add 2 if they don't have those conditions. Not amazingly interesting but better.

Slippery Shooter- Another Stance means we can start weaving between them each turn. It's another Opener but we have no Press yet. You don't trigger AoO or reactions triggered by ranged attacks. You can now use AoOs but they are within 5 feet. Rather boring still. If you want to disrupt spellcasting or shoot at a marked area, you still need to use two actions to Ready a reaction.

10th level- Agile Grace: You're much better at Blowdarts, Darts and Shurikens. Woe betide you if you grabbed those Double or Triple Shots as a Shuriken thrower.

Blindfight: It's only to adjacent targets.

Combat Reflexes: If you took Slippery Shooter, you can AoO twice in melee range with a ranged weapon. Fun /s

Debilitating Shot: After 10 levels, you can now interact with the Open-Press system! Follow-up shot that can cause Slowed 1 or Flat-footed for a turn. Neat! Might be able to help out a sneak-attack user or capitalize with the next Strike. Rather interesting.

Disruptive: Would be great if we could AoO at range. We can't.

Unyielding Fortitude: Useful if you face a ton of fortitude saves at range.

12th level- Desperate Finisher- You know that Press attack we just got? We can use a bonus Debilitating Shot nearly every round since we don't have much use for our AoOs. Depressing that this feat is so useful because we don't have much use for one huge mechanic of our class.

Incredible Follow-up: Another Press attack. It's a basic strike that ignores concealed, screen or cover. /yawn

14th level- Determination: Likely going to have plenty of spells slung our way. Interesting enough.

Stance Savant: We can start each fight in Slippery Shooter, I guess.

16th level- Multishot Paragon: Remember those boring Double and Triple Strikes? They are better now. You can even use Stance Savant to enter this. Doubling down on Double Shot.

18th level- Impossible Volley: Longbow only. Not bored of 18 levels of saying "I use Strike on two of the mooks"? Now you can say "I use Strike on ALL of the mooks! (within 10 feet of each other)"

Savage Critical: Crit success on 19-20. Took 18 levels but now rolling dice is slightly more interesting. 5e Champions get this at level 3.

20th level- Weapon Supremacy: Not bored of Strike? Now you can always Strike an additional time in combat. Fun?

As you can see, almost nothing here comes close to the narratively interesting things you can do in other games including PF1. No hitting their weapon to disarm them, no pinning their clothing to a wall, no knocking them off the bridge with a well-placed shot. I do hope those extra pages in the final PF2 edition have some more interesting ranged options or an Archer archtype. Dedicated masters of the Bow are going to have some pretty boring times in PF2 otherwise.


GentleGiant wrote:
Vornesoul wrote:
GentleGiant wrote:
Vornesoul wrote:
Joana wrote:
If you ordered from Paizo.com, you will not be getting a shipping confirmation email.
I received a shipping confirmation email on July 13th from Pazio stating the order would arrive in 7-11 days via Amazon Standard Shipping. On the 31st, after I contacted customer support, I was informed that the shipping company was holding the order back till the 2nd. A friend told me about the Amazon delay as I never received an email about delay
That wasn't an "it's shipping!" email, it was an intent to ship email. According to what a lot of people have reported it actually doesn't say that it's about to ship, but that it'll take 7-11 days (in your case) when it ships. Try re-reading it carefully and see if it doesn't match up with the emails others have reported about.
GentleGiant wrote:
According to what a lot of people have reported it actually doesn't say that it's about to ship, but that it'll take 7-11 days (in your case) when it ships.

It states "A package containing 1 item from Paizo Order #5044507 is about to ship from Amazon Canada Warehouse via Amazon Standard Delivery, estimated 7 to 11 business days in transit."

The email also links to my Pazio account which states: Shipped Fri, Jul 13, 2018

Yes, that would indicate that Amazon was "about" to ship it, not that they had done so on the 13th - the intent/ready to ship part. Since Amazon has/had all the books it was automatically marked as shipped in Paizo's system (hence why it shows up like that on your Paizo account). The intent from Paizo was that Amazon would ship the books so they would arrive as close to August 2nd as possible. That's where something went wrong in Amazon's system. We don't know what went wrong on their end yet, though. It couldn't have been that they shouldn't start shipping until the 2nd, as they had already shipped a few books before that.

EDIT:
As the coven of...

The original quote, and your response, both stated that it wasn't a shipping confirmation email. It was. I, personally, understand what happened. The shipping confirmation email was unclear. It did not explain that Pazio was confirming that the product had been shipped to Amazon, not the customer. The wording was "about to ship from Amazon Canada Warehouse". "From" indicates, it is already at the Amazon Warehouse and being shipped from that location. That doesn't mean a shipping confirmation email did not exist.

Furthermore, of greater concern to me personally, I didn't receive an email regarding the delay and figured Pazio CS might want to know that. This isn't a case of the email being lost in junk or other folders.


GentleGiant wrote:
Vornesoul wrote:
Joana wrote:
If you ordered from Paizo.com, you will not be getting a shipping confirmation email.
I received a shipping confirmation email on July 13th from Pazio stating the order would arrive in 7-11 days via Amazon Standard Shipping. On the 31st, after I contacted customer support, I was informed that the shipping company was holding the order back till the 2nd. A friend told me about the Amazon delay as I never received an email about delay
That wasn't an "it's shipping!" email, it was an intent to ship email. According to what a lot of people have reported it actually doesn't say that it's about to ship, but that it'll take 7-11 days (in your case) when it ships. Try re-reading it carefully and see if it doesn't match up with the emails others have reported about.
GentleGiant wrote:
According to what a lot of people have reported it actually doesn't say that it's about to ship, but that it'll take 7-11 days (in your case) when it ships.

It states "A package containing 1 item from Paizo Order #5044507 is about to ship from Amazon Canada Warehouse via Amazon Standard Delivery, estimated 7 to 11 business days in transit."

The email also links to my Pazio account which states: Shipped Fri, Jul 13, 2018


Joana wrote:
If you ordered from Paizo.com, you will not be getting a shipping confirmation email.

I received a shipping confirmation email on July 13th from Pazio stating the order would arrive in 7-11 days via Amazon Standard Shipping. On the 31st, after I contacted customer support, I was informed that the shipping company was holding the order back till the 2nd. A friend told me about the Amazon delay as I never received an email about delay

Cebaron wrote:

Just like to report, I pre-ordered through Paizo so my order is part of this debacle, and my book just arrived today.

Everyone is acting like the sky is falling over what seems like will amount to a lot of nothing, it's slightly later than expected but earlier than I thought it would be with everything going wrong.

I'm glad that it was only slightly late for you. It would appear that it will be over a week late for some others. Maybe even longer. Having an expected delivery date is important for a limited product like a Collectors Edition (which I ordered).


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Raven Gravehart wrote:
Denim N Leather wrote:

This is a huge fumble. Huge. We forked over good money in good faith for a product that can be downloaded for free, to have zero tracking info, zero amount of real feedback, and just a disappointing ‘oops’ email.

I ordered the book because I don’t like large PDFs. I like books. I ordered a book. There is no book, at least no this week. I suspect this won’t be sorted until after GenCon.

Major, major disappointment here. I will not make this mistake again, more fool me.

The fault lies with Amazon, not Paizo. I'm not surprised that it happened because Amazon has been messing up their shipments more and more often lately. And it hasn't just been shipments. Their site will show that they have more than enough of an item to ship it and get it to you by their standard delivery dates but then for some reason it is suddenly out of stock a couple of weeks later and you don't get what you ordered for at least a month. Next time maybe instead of ordering via Amazon, try your nearest gaming and hobby store if they are doing preorders.

I ordered from Pazio. They chose to work with Amazon. My LGS is tiny and wasn't going to get any collectors editions of the playtest.


Joana wrote:
Sirmac wrote:
They could of emailed everyone who preorded the books!

They did, on August 1st. Have you checked your junk mail folder?

It's also in the main Paizo blog.

I didn't receive this e-mail. I have checked every folder, as I use gmail. I had to find out through a friend about the Amazon delay. Customer service told me to check this thread for updates. As I'm Canadian, I have no idea when I might receive the book even after reading this over.