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I'm not as impressed by the new feats as others seem to be.
I just can't get excited by the fact that my L13 wizard will get to become Expert with his bow. Wow, a +1 to hit. At L13 where that +1 will just get me from a 35% to a 40% hit rate (or something like that. Wizards are going to be behind the expected curve at that level by a fair bit)
That seems incredibly underwhelming to me. But Paizo is obviously VERY proud of it and thinks it a wonderful and powerful addition to Elves
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Well, Centaurs used Medium weapons so the benefits and drawbacks of Size generally balanced out - if anything I'd say it left them a tad on the weak side since they often had trouble moving in enclosed areas. Their unique anatomy played havoc with Item Slots, Trip, and certain skills like Climb or Swim though.
In 3.5, at least, they also got insanely good stat boosts that made them quite overpowered in wilderness campaigns where their size was rarely an issue
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Was there any word on the fabled resonance overhaul?
In 3.5, at least, they also got insanely good stat boosts that made them quite overpowered in wilderness campaigns where their size was rarely an issue
Well, Centaurs used Medium weapons so the benefits and drawbacks of Size generally balanced out - if anything I'd say it left them a tad on the weak side since they often had trouble moving in enclosed areas. Their unique anatomy played havoc with Item Slots, Trip, and certain skills like Climb or Swim though.
Yeah if your DM didn't use the LA or racial die rules. If he did you would be like 6? levels behind it's just not worth the stat boost when you could be casting 4th level spells already.
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how would this work going forward for the other half-races? it'd be a shame to see them all tied to humans despite how fitting they may be (such as an oread-dwarf or an aasimar elf)Just to clarify a bit...
Every ancestry has 4 heritages to choose from in this implementation of the rules. Half-elf and Half-orc are two of the human ones.
Given they're making the base Ancestry chassis' equal to each other, there is nothing mechanical preventing them from making Ancestry-neutral Heritages.
That's what I'd expect Aasimar and Tiefling to be.
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Ya, any ancestry should be able to be Planetouched.
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Ancestry-neutral Heritages actually open up a lot of design space. Entirely aside from Tieflings and Aasimar you could easily have one for living in extremely cold (or hot) climates, to pick an extremely mundane counterpoint to the planetouched. Or lots of other things.
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I'm not as impressed by the new feats as others seem to be.
I just can't get excited by the fact that my L13 wizard will get to become Expert with his bow. Wow, a +1 to hit. At L13 where that +1 will just get me from a 35% to a 40% hit rate (or something like that. Wizards are going to be behind the expected curve at that level by a fair bit)
That seems incredibly underwhelming to me. But Paizo is obviously VERY proud of it and thinks it a wonderful and powerful addition to Elves
The 5 casting classes, Alchemist, and Rogue are limited in proficiency bonus on most weapons (Rogues get Expert in some, but lack Longbows and good options for STR-based weapons). For the casters, they'd get Expert a Level faster than they would with Fighter Dedication / Weapon Expert. Also, taking these instead of Fighter Dedication saves you two class feats, which are usually better than Ancestry Feats.
It's still not a large boost to accuracy, but every +1 helps. I'm not over-the-moon excited about it, but it's a nice touch. Plus now I can build an Arcane Archer-style build without losing accuracy if I don't take the Fighter Multiclass.
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I'm not as impressed by the new feats as others seem to be.
I just can't get excited by the fact that my L13 wizard will get to become Expert with his bow. Wow, a +1 to hit. At L13 where that +1 will just get me from a 35% to a 40% hit rate (or something like that. Wizards are going to be behind the expected curve at that level by a fair bit)
That seems incredibly underwhelming to me. But Paizo is obviously VERY proud of it and thinks it a wonderful and powerful addition to Elves
The 5 casting classes, Alchemist, and Rogue are limited in proficiency bonus on most weapons (Rogues get Expert in some, but lack Longbows and good options for STR-based weapons). For the casters, they'd get Expert a Level faster than they would with Fighter Dedication / Weapon Expert. Also, taking these instead of Fighter Dedication saves you two class feats, which are usually better than Ancestry Feats.
It's still not a large boost to accuracy, but every +1 helps. I'm not over-the-moon excited about it, but it's a nice touch. Plus now I can build an Arcane Archer-style build without losing accuracy if I don't take the Fighter Multiclass.
The other thing is that a wizard specced for Combat isn't going to be behind the expected curve by a "fair bit," at least not if you consider +1 an insignificant amount of advantage. A 13th level Ranger only has a +1 advantage over the elf wizard from getting master that level, and maybe another +1 from having their key Stat be Dex. And that second one is only going to be true for half of the levels because of diminishing returns.
Then you add magical striker. That gives the wizard an extra +1 to hit and another damage dice, too, on any round he casts a spell. Such as a single action true strike. You'll be casting spells and firing the bow a lot, because that's why you made a wizard Archer. This also helps offset the Hunt Target advantage on iterative attacks-- the wizard has plenty of other stuff to do instead.
All that being said, I'm not actually having my mind blown by this feat. But approaching it from the perspective of "wizards suck with weapons anyway" ignores how close they can get to the martials already.
Was drow as a heritage mentioned?
No, it has not been mentioned yet, or I'd be throwing a party already! :D
One can hope, though.
The only thing we had about elves were "arctic elves" and "sea elves" but I'm not sure whether Mark used these as generic examples or if they are indeed two of the final heritage feats.
They seem rather bland compared to the possibility of having Drow heritage or just simply compared to Fell Gnomes, so I'm hoping these are not actual heritage feats.
Was drow as a heritage mentioned?No, it has not been mentioned yet, or I'd be throwing a party already! :D
One can hope, though.
The only thing we had about elves were "arctic elves" and "sea elves" but I'm not sure whether Mark used these as generic examples or if they are indeed two of the final heritage feats.
They seem rather bland compared to the possibility of having Drow heritage or just simply compared to Fell Gnomes, so I'm hoping these are not actual heritage feats.
Well I can't speak much to the Snow Elves, but the Aquatic Elves of yester-edition had a full-fledged Swim speed, which would be quite the addition for some campaigns (probably the ones where being an Aquatic Elf would make the most sense anyways TBTH) and will probably come up at some point in a lot of pre-made campaigns anyways.
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Well I can't speak much to the Snow Elves, but the Aquatic Elves of yester-edition had a full-fledged Swim speed, which would be quite the addition for some campaigns (probably the ones where being an Aquatic Elf would make the most sense anyways TBTH) and will probably come up at some point in a lot of pre-made campaigns anyways.Was drow as a heritage mentioned?No, it has not been mentioned yet, or I'd be throwing a party already! :D
One can hope, though.
The only thing we had about elves were "arctic elves" and "sea elves" but I'm not sure whether Mark used these as generic examples or if they are indeed two of the final heritage feats.
They seem rather bland compared to the possibility of having Drow heritage or just simply compared to Fell Gnomes, so I'm hoping these are not actual heritage feats.
Oh, I agree, Aquatic Elves are a very flavorful and useful addition to the game.
It's just that I would be disappointed if all elven heritage feats end up being about terrain variations. :)
So, someone is not happy about a Wizard's to-hit chances in the mid levels, and what does he do? He goes complaining and makes sarcasm about a new option that gives some help hitting. Wow!
Well I can't speak much to the Snow Elves, but the Aquatic Elves of yester-edition had a full-fledged Swim speed, which would be quite the addition for some campaigns (probably the ones where being an Aquatic Elf would make the most sense anyways TBTH) and will probably come up at some point in a lot of pre-made campaigns anyways.
Well, with Athletics now covering Swimming, Climbing, and Combat Maneuvers I think you are likely to see a lot more characters investing in Athletics than you ever did in Swim or Climb, so the benefit of a Swim/Climb speed is probably less dramatic than it used to be.
So, someone is not happy about a Wizard's to-hit chances in the mid levels, and what does he do? He goes complaining and makes sarcasm about a new option that gives some help hitting. Wow!
Weirdest part about the comment is that barbarians stay with expert the whole way to 20 don't they? Isn't it weird to think a full wizard has the same bonus as a savage who fought his whole life?
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I do hope most of the Ancestries mentioned in the Survey make it into subsequent books, including Pixie and Centaur. They don't have to be Large creatures. Plus, horses are awkward on stairs but a sentient humanoid does not have to be. Dealing with the animal lower half would make for interesting dungoneering challenges.
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So, someone is not happy about a Wizard's to-hit chances in the mid levels, and what does he do? He goes complaining and makes sarcasm about a new option that gives some help hitting. Wow!Weirdest part about the comment is that barbarians stay with expert the whole way to 20 don't they? Isn't it weird to think a full wizard has the same bonus as a savage who fought his whole life?
Thats more of an issue with Barbarians than anything else. Even Paladins, the martial clearly in the defensive niche, gets expert at like 5 I think. They should at least keep pace with Paladins but thats another topic.
I'm not as impressed by the new feats as others seem to be.
I just can't get excited by the fact that my L13 wizard will get to become Expert with his bow. Wow, a +1 to hit. At L13 where that +1 will just get me from a 35% to a 40% hit rate (or something like that. Wizards are going to be behind the expected curve at that level by a fair bit)
That seems incredibly underwhelming to me. But Paizo is obviously VERY proud of it and thinks it a wonderful and powerful addition to Elves
The 5 casting classes, Alchemist, and Rogue are limited in proficiency bonus on most weapons (Rogues get Expert in some, but lack Longbows and good options for STR-based weapons). For the casters, they'd get Expert a Level faster than they would with Fighter Dedication / Weapon Expert. Also, taking these instead of Fighter Dedication saves you two class feats, which are usually better than Ancestry Feats.
It's still not a large boost to accuracy, but every +1 helps. I'm not over-the-moon excited about it, but it's a nice touch. Plus now I can build an Arcane Archer-style build without losing accuracy if I don't take the Fighter Multiclass.
The other thing is that a wizard specced for Combat isn't going to be behind the expected curve by a "fair bit," at least not if you consider +1 an insignificant amount of advantage. A 13th level Ranger only has a +1 advantage over the elf wizard from getting master that level, and maybe another +1 from having their key Stat be Dex. And that second one is only going to be true for half of the levels because of diminishing returns.
Then you add magical striker. That gives the wizard an extra +1 to hit and another damage dice, too, on any round he casts a spell. Such as a single action true strike. You'll be casting spells and firing the bow a lot, because that's why you made a wizard Archer. This also helps offset the Hunt Target advantage on iterative attacks-- the wizard has plenty of other stuff to do instead.
All that...
In the case of bows it's a bit tricky, since casters can use the highest-damage bow relatively easily while not interfering with Magical Striker. It's easily the one point where they're about as good as materials, done right. I myself plan on running a Sorcerer / MC Ranger build using Magical Striker and Favored Aim to make those True Strike snipes even more deadly.
However, try any other weapon and you'll find that Magical Striker is often about on-par with just using a 2H weapon on the same character. This is due to the higher damage die size of 2H weapons as compared to 1H weapons, which are required to use Magical Striker at all. Even with the same weapons, the bonus +1-2 from proficiency and higher STR/DEX ensures that classes like Ranger and Paladin deal more damage. Besides that, these classes typically have other sources of damage or accuracy that set them ahead, like Hunt Target, Rage, and Sneak Attack. Additionally, classes with higher attack bonuses benefit more from further accuracy increases like buff spells thanks to how crits work now. It's really hard to make melee attacks on casters effective thanks to the hand limitations.
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Thats more of an issue with Barbarians than anything else. Even Paladins, the martial clearly in the defensive niche, gets expert at like 5 I think. They should at least keep pace with Paladins but thats another topic.So, someone is not happy about a Wizard's to-hit chances in the mid levels, and what does he do? He goes complaining and makes sarcasm about a new option that gives some help hitting. Wow!Weirdest part about the comment is that barbarians stay with expert the whole way to 20 don't they? Isn't it weird to think a full wizard has the same bonus as a savage who fought his whole life?
Barbarians and Rogues get Expert at Level 13 and never higher. This is probably due to Rage and Sneak Attack - thanks to these damage bonuses the Barbarian's expected damage is nearly as high as the Fighter's, which is the highest in the game for Weapon use, and a Sneak-attacking Rogue hits about as hard as a Monk. As far as damage is concerned, Barbarians are nearly the highest even with lower accuracy and Rogues are about tied for 3rd in the right conditions.
Barbarians and Rogues get Expert at Level 13 and never higher. This is probably due to Rage and Sneak Attack - thanks to these damage bonuses the Barbarian's expected damage is nearly as high as the Fighter's, which is the highest in the game for Weapon use, and a Sneak-attacking Rogue hits about as hard as a Monk. As far as damage is concerned, Barbarians are nearly the highest even with lower accuracy and Rogues are about tied for 3rd in the right conditions.Thats more of an issue with Barbarians than anything else. Even Paladins, the martial clearly in the defensive niche, gets expert at like 5 I think. They should at least keep pace with Paladins but thats another topic.So, someone is not happy about a Wizard's to-hit chances in the mid levels, and what does he do? He goes complaining and makes sarcasm about a new option that gives some help hitting. Wow!Weirdest part about the comment is that barbarians stay with expert the whole way to 20 don't they? Isn't it weird to think a full wizard has the same bonus as a savage who fought his whole life?
Agreed, i am surprised that now they are giving this feature so easily, it's quite strong to get expert in weapons.
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I do want more ancestries. Since seemingly a lot of people want centaurs I think that could work okay. I'd also want 3 more, to bring it up to 12 ancestries to match the 12 classes... Or 5 more if we don't count half elf and half orc, since they're just human variants now. :)
Centaur could get +2 Str, +2 Int, +2 any, -2 Dex. Speed +5, large size but uses medium equipment, bonus carry capacity.
Ratfolk could get +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 any, -2 Cha. Small size, low-light, scent.
Kobold could get +2 Dex, +2 Cha, +2 any, -2 Str, because f~&#ing goblins should not have Cha or any mental stat and should be Dex/Con instead. Small size, Darkvision, +1 AC.
Orc could get +2 Str, +2 Wis, +2 any, -2 Cha. 10-12 hp, Darkvision.
Tengu could get +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +2 any, -2 Con. Low-light, linguist.
It's be nice to see races getting skill bonuses back, the ones in the corebook and all the ones above too. I didn't include any above since the ones in the playtest book don't have any. But they should.
Not saying they should be a race options but I have had problems in the past with centaurs in partys. Stairs for example, and obstacles that involve climbing.
Horses can take stairs just fine. Climbing though is problematic.
It was a spiral staircase though!
It was a spiral staircase though!Ha, cast reduce!
We should of shrunk him. its ok he didn't last very long. We were attacked while lowering him down a ravine. IT didn't go well.
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Also, Centaurs in greek myths already would have been much smaller
Huge horses are a relatively recent invention.
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how would this work going forward for the other half-races? it'd be a shame to see them all tied to humans despite how fitting they may be (such as an oread-dwarf or an aasimar elf)Just to clarify a bit...
Every ancestry has 4 heritages to choose from in this implementation of the rules. Half-elf and Half-orc are two of the human ones.
Given they're making the base Ancestry chassis' equal to each other, there is nothing mechanical preventing them from making Ancestry-neutral Heritages.
That's what I'd expect Aasimar and Tiefling to be.
Not sure why the half-race design isn't ancestry-neutral to start with. Anyone else confused as to why half-elf is human only? Not also an elf option?
Given the default lore of Golarion, one would assume there are a whole variety of half-<somethings> running around that lead to all those <something>-touched bloodlines out there. PF2E seemed like an opportune time to put that chassis in the rules for actual play, instead of sticking to the traditional half-elf/half-orc only and all the other co-mingling bloodlines just being handwaved away into backstory.
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Not saying they should be a race options but I have had problems in the past with centaurs in partys. Stairs for example, and obstacles that involve climbing.
We had merfolk in pathfinder already and they aren't known for their climbing. ;)
Not saying they should be a race options but I have had problems in the past with centaurs in partys. Stairs for example, and obstacles that involve climbing.We had merfolk in pathfinder already and they aren't known for their climbing. ;)
Climbing is probably more of a issue in PF1 since "magical solutions for flying" (something I have seen literally 100% of Merfolk characters build towards) are a lot harder to come by now.
But once again, I want to point out how Cecaelias are great, since your octopus legs are super-useful for climbing (an actual octopus can climb sheer vertical glass, but you're not quite as good because you have that human torso).
Climbing is probably more of a issue in PF1 since "magical solutions for flying" (something I have seen literally 100% of Merfolk characters build towards) are a lot harder to come by now.
I never went that route myself. I found it easier to find methods of altering shape and boosting speed. It's not that hard to bump their speed to acceptable numbers and alter self is pretty low level and gets you 2 legs when you need them. ;)
But once again, I want to point out how Cecaelias are great, since your octopus legs are super-useful for climbing (an actual octopus can climb sheer vertical glass, but you're not quite as good because you have that human torso).
Oh no doubt. I LOVE them and am really surprised they came out as a race. There are a lot of builds you can make with them.
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I'm kind of dubious about how canonical some of those earlier player companions are, to be honest, but ymmv. I mean, Elves of Golarion was literally printed before the Core Rulebook so it's kind of a 3.5 supplement anyway.
Regardless, I would prefer elf sleep immunity stay an option. It was a thing I always traded away anyway.
The Serenading Pharasma Scenario was referenced in a recent softcover, dealing with a Bardic Masterpiece from it. Which is where I learned about that bit of lore, I didn’t know it was originally in EoG.
Yeah, about that...bad at stairsHorrifically off-topic, but I still have this horrible temptation to one of these days just stat up a golem based off of a dalek.
Oh yes, I'm aware of this.
It's still hard to forget the early ones getting beaten up with a lasso, though.|
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how would this work going forward for the other half-races? it'd be a shame to see them all tied to humans despite how fitting they may be (such as an oread-dwarf or an aasimar elf)Just to clarify a bit...
Every ancestry has 4 heritages to choose from in this implementation of the rules. Half-elf and Half-orc are two of the human ones.
Given they're making the base Ancestry chassis' equal to each other, there is nothing mechanical preventing them from making Ancestry-neutral Heritages.
That's what I'd expect Aasimar and Tiefling to be.
Not sure why the half-race design isn't ancestry-neutral to start with. Anyone else confused as to why half-elf is human only? Not also an elf option?
Given the default lore of Golarion, one would assume there are a whole variety of half-<somethings> running around that lead to all those <something>-touched bloodlines out there. PF2E seemed like an opportune time to put that chassis in the rules for actual play, instead of sticking to the traditional half-elf/half-orc only and all the other co-mingling bloodlines just being handwaved away into backstory.
That is due to the attribute bonus based on Ancestry/Race
Half-Orcs and Half-Elves in PF1 shared the versatility of the Human race, which was a very good thing for Half-Orc IMO compared to 3.5. So in PF2 they stuck to that by making them variants of the Human ancestry
It does not preclude later Half-whatever heritages for other ancestries. The diversity this opens for ancestry options boggles the mind in a good way :-)
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Not sure why the half-race design isn't ancestry-neutral to start with. Anyone else confused as to why half-elf is human only? Not also an elf option?
As noted, it's probably because Half Elves do, and should, use the Human stat-mods. Part of the Heritage is almost certainly the ability to use Elf Ancestry Feats, so those are the main thing locked in by it being Human-based.
Given the default lore of Golarion, one would assume there are a whole variety of half-<somethings> running around that lead to all those <something>-touched bloodlines out there. PF2E seemed like an opportune time to put that chassis in the rules for actual play, instead of sticking to the traditional half-elf/half-orc only and all the other co-mingling bloodlines just being handwaved away into backstory.
For whatever reason, it's pretty well established in the world that Humans and Elves can interbreed with no weird magic involved, as can Humans and Orcs. Most other crossbreeds (other than Dragons and Outsiders, which are excellent candidates for the Ancestry-neutral option) require direct magic intervention or very weird circumstances.
In short, Human/Elf and Human/Orc hybrids are more common in-world than something like an Orc/Dwarf by several orders of magnitude. Having them be an established thing long before such unique one-offs get rules of their own is thus pretty reasonable.
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It's my personal preference that all "hybrid/planetouched" persons be at least half human. My headcanon is that the human superpower is that they can (and will) breed with a surprising variety of things. Like I know that Pathfinder has rules for like Gnome Aasimar, but it's my preference to just house rule that stuff out of existence.
It's also my preference that there are no half-dwarves anywhere.
It's my personal preference that all "hybrid/planetouched" persons be at least half human. My headcanon is that the human superpower is that they can (and will) breed with a surprising variety of things. Like I know that Pathfinder has rules for like Gnome Aasimar, but it's my preference to just house rule that stuff out of existence.
It's also my preference that there are no half-dwarves anywhere.
Well, according to Bastards of Golarion, half-dwarves and half-gnomes don't exist. Outside of stuff like Wishes.
So, that should make you happy.
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Just a thing worth pointing out: today is a holiday for the Paizo staff, so they've asked for patience if 1.4 is late coming out today.
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Just a thing worth pointing out: today is a holiday for the Paizo staff, so they've asked for patience if 1.4 is late coming out today.
They're celebrating Croatian Independence Day too? That's nice of them.