You are looking at this from Asmodeus' perspective, not House Thrune's...
Asmodeus is a god, so his perspective is the most important one.
Remember that mortals tend to be full of themselves.
*Channeling Red of Overly Sarcastic Productions*
"Hubris: It's okay when the gods do it."
More realistically, it depends on what House Thrune has to offer. Asmodeus certainly wouldn't be willing to renegotiate the terms of the contract with House Thrune for "less" than what he gets out of it currently, but that's only if House Thrune is offering "less".
If House Thrune can get their hands on something that Asmodeus values more than what he currently gets out of their contract, then they may have a viable bargaining position.
Szuriel and Moloch have been penfriends for quite some time.
Seems like a good way to transfer info about infernal contracts.
So Moloch filled out the FOIA request?
Because if Asmodeus finds out Moloch or one of his minions stole it or otherwise gained access to it, Moloch’s ass is grass.
Remember, Asmodeus is a full-fledged deity. Moloch is not.
If you’re an Arch-Devil and want to screw with Asmodeus or his pets, you’d better be at least as smart as the ruler of Hell. Moloch is not that guy.
I mean, that's assuming Asmodeus wasn't using Moloch as a backchannel to leak the information to Szuriel in the first place.
Whether Asmodeus actually wants House Thrune to default or simply wants to put some extra pressure on them, I think it's safe to assume the contract is set up in a way where Asmodeus benefits either way.
I mean, "getting Isger out from under the thumb of Cheliax" is itself a noble goal. Like Isger is literally "not part of Cheliax" so it's reasonable to think that they shouldn't be as beholden to Thrune as they have been of late.
Probably if I was to anticipate an endgame here it's less that Thrune is deposed or Cheliax is under the control of Hell itself or alternatively good people, but that Isger becomes an independent state/satellite state of Andoran.
We know the fight for Isgeri independence is the focus of the Hellbreakers AP - the question is whether that's the focus of the Hellfire Crisis writ large or only the focus of "Phase I".
If Hellbreakers ends with Isger no longer under Chelaxian control, what does the Phase II "sequel" AP focus on, if not a direct attempt to take down House Thrune itself? And what does Cheliax look like in that AP's wake? That's my concern.
Abby nationalizing the Hellknights pretty much puts a stop to that. She's making a firm statement that the Hellknight orders (to say nothing of Isger itself) belong to Cheliax and that if Andoran wants a fight, they're fighting with her directly.
Pardon?
I am not familiar with any source that says Abrogail did or is definitely going to "nationalize" any Hellknight order.
Link plz.
It's mentioned in one of the PaizoCon panels, which should be archived on Paizo's Twitch channel at the moment, though I imagine they'll make it to Youtube sooner or later.
In the meantime, someone on Reddit did a live writeup: Link
General idea is that Abrogail nationalizes the Hellknight orders in response to the Eagle Knights forcing the Order of the Rack out of Breachill. Not all of them submit to her authority - the Orders of the Torrent and Nail are called out as such specifically - but those that do are now official agents of the Chelaxian state, rather than their previous quasi-independent status.
Fair enough. I admit, I was being somewhat hyperbolic.
But this whole thing was billed as being the start to a massive Inner Sea War, and when I think "war story", I think something along the lines of a Gundam series. A story where even the "bad guys" have a point and rationale behind their actions that reasonable people can get behind and which side is in the right is entirely a matter of perspective.
My favorite Gundam series, 1985's Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam, is about a heroic rebellion fighting against fascists who do things like fatally gassing civilians en masse in the name of suppressing dissent against their rule. There's no question about the morality of our protagonists and antagonists, but somehow it's one of the most acclaimed entries in the series.
Cheliax is a dystopian nightmare of surveillance, propaganda, and torture, where widespread racist slavery was recently 'replaced' with conscription and debt traps, ruled by a despotic regime in thrall to literal Hell - almost none of which is new to 2e. What kind of "reasonable both sides" do you want them to depict with the Chelish state, exactly?
Aren't the villains you're referring to from Zeta Gundam ultimately reveled to be a part of the Earth Federation? The same Earth Federation that the heroes fought for in the original series, just a handful of years after winning the One Year War?
My familiarity with the Universal Century timeline is admittedly limited, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm mostly a Cosmic Era kid (along with a number of the other spinoffs), so let me frame this through a "Gundam SEED" lens since I know it significantly better. If you'll forgive a rough summary of the core conflict, for context:
A 'Quick' and Dirty Summary of the Core Conflict in Gundam SEED:
Quote:
Within the past few generations, human genetic engineering has become a thing. Some people are fine with it, a lot of people are very much not. A group known as Blue Cosmos picks up the anti-genetic engineering cause and starts pushing an agenda that swiftly goes full-on "Natural" supremacist, funding assassinations, terrorism, violence, etc. against people who are genetically engineered and those who create or otherwise support them, and in the process managing to worm their way into significant positions of political and military power, particularly within the Atlantic Federation (basically the US equivalent).
In response to this, many genetically engineered people - often labeled and/or self-identifying as "Coordinators" - start moving to the relatively new PLANT space colonies (or else to various nations on Earth that don't share Blue Cosmos' ideology). But while the PLANTs have a large enough Coordinator populations that they generally don't need to fear the kinds of prejudice and violence they see on Earth, the colonies are still ostensibly under the sovereignty of the same Earth nations that built them (such as the Atlantic Federation), leading to a gradual push toward increased autonomy from their Earth-bound parent nations, if not outright independence.
Then, in an incident so comparatively minor to what follows that it's never actually mentioned in the series itself, someone blows up a UN meeting, killing several world leaders in one fell swoop. The Atlantic Federation pounces on this and proposes the formation of the Earth Alliance - more or less a global NATO-style defensive pact - and gets most of the major powers on Earth to sign on (most notably the Eurasian Federation), then uses the fact that an influential Coordinator, scheduled to speak about colonial autonomy/independence at the UN meeting the day of the explosion, happened to survive because his flight was conveniently delayed as "evidence" of Coordinator involvement in the incident and, before anyone could stop them, launched a military assault on the PLANT colony of Junius 7, culminating in the use of a nuclear warhead that torn it apart, killing the more than 240,000 people that lived onboard. On Valentine's Day.
The PLANTs colonies respond in turn by declaring full independence from their Earth parent nations and join together militarily in the Zodiac Alliance of Freedom Treaty (usually abbreviated as ZAFT), then mass produce a new device known as Neutron Jammers that generates a field around it that suppresses nuclear fission reactions, and essentially seeds the Earth with untold millions of the things, burrowing them deep enough into the crust that removing them becomes infeasible.
This, along with Neutron Jammers in and around the PLANTs themselves and their growing fleet of spaceships, has the intended effect of rendering the Earth Alliance's vast stockpiles of nuclear weapons entirely unusable. It also has the unintended effect of crashing much of the Earth's energy infrastructure, which is at this point largely running on nuclear reactors, whereas the PLANTs are largely powered through massive solar arrays.
Now the (First) Bloody Valentine war is raging. The Earth Alliance expected to win a quick victory since they had the bulk of world's the existing military arms and infrastructure in their pocket, but ZAFT managed to hold them off long enough that the enhanced capabilities of their Coordinator population begin to give them an edge - they're having to build a military from more or less scratch, but they're advancing blindingly fast, and once they field the first mobile suits (designed specifically for Coordinator pilots, so as to be overwhelming and unwieldy for Naturals) the war starts to turn in their favor. Getting desperate, the Earth Alliance starts looking to develop their own, more heavily armed mobile suits to close the gap, and in particular puts intense pressure on the ostensibly neutral nation of Orb for help in doing so, leading to the secret production of the Archangel warship and five prototype "G-Weapons" which sets the original SEED series in motion.
There are bad people on both sides, but there are also good people on both sides.
The Atlantic Federation is infested with Blue Cosmos and proves all too willing to throw away the lives of both its own soldiers and those of its Eurasian Federation allies in order to increase its own power within the Earth Alliance and simply to kill more Coordinators, as well as perfectly happy to employ chemical enhancement and psychological conditioning on Natural children to create supersoldiers capable of matching the best Coordinators. At the same time, the (surviving) crew of the Archangel are part of the Atlantic Federation military and spend the first half of the series fighting for the Earth Alliance, until they are unknowingly ordered to serve as bait in a deathtrap and they see firsthand just how deep the Blue Cosmos rot has burrowed into their military leadership, ultimately leading them to defect and join up with Orb. And though the Earth Alliance is (rightfully) portrayed as probably the most unambiguously villainous faction in the series, we are nonetheless shown a number of figures that are either outright heroic in their own right or at the very least are more focused on resolving Earth's energy crisis than in Blue Cosmos's genocidal crusade against Coordinators.
On the other side, most ZAFT soldiers are fighting what they see as an existential threat, an enemy that wants everyone like them exterminated down to the last man, woman, and child, and has already shown themselves eager to use nuclear weapons on civilians in that pursuit. The majority of PLANT leadership is (initially) moderate, looking for little more than the recognition of their independence and an immediate end to the war, but there is also a growing militant faction that desires nothing short of complete victory no matter the cost, headed by a hardline Coordinator supremacist who (stupidly) backs the development of a "Neutron Jammer Canceller" so that ZAFT can begin developing their own nuclear-powered superweapons, which just puts the EA's nuclear arsenal back on the table when it inevitably gets leaked to Blue Cosmos.
That's the sort of conflict I'm looking for in a war story. You can have clear bad guys, you can have clear good guys, but I don't want the war itself to be structured around "those guys are bad, let's go beat them up about it." I want room for stories to be told from either side.
So to bring it back to the Hellfire Crisis, from Cheliax's perspective it's a matter of sovereignty. They sent in the Hellknights because they had reason to believe that Isgeri rebels in Breachill were hiding warshards, and by all accounts, they were correct - it was mentioned in one of the PaizoCon panels that the Hellbreakers League does indeed have a warshard. Andoran sending in first an observer to assess the situation and/or get in touch with the Hellbreakers and then a contingent of Eagle Knights to drive out the Order of the Rack is Andoran saying that Cheliax does not have sovereignty here - Isger is/should be a free, sovereign nation unto itself that Cheliax has no power to police.
All of that is fine so far - Hellbreakers is ostensibly about the fight for Isgeri independence, after all.
What I'm saying is, make Andoran go farther - the full French Revolutionary mindset. They're starting with Isger/Cheliax due to proximity and shared regional history, but they've decided it's time to do away with monarchy as a governmental system all across the Inner Sea, at the point of a sword if necessary, and are ramping up revolutionary propaganda to that end.
Now there's an angle beyond just beating up Cheliax for doing Cheliax things: Empire vs Republic. Liberty vs Security. Centralized Power Structures vs Decentralized Power Structures. Put simply, Order vs Chaos.
The entire thesis of Cheliax is that it's a nation that traded freedom for security. People can legitimately hate House Thrune, while still thinking that the devil they know is better than the devil they don't, and that the Andoran army marching across the border expecting to be welcomed as liberators as they upend the government that has kept this nation comparatively stable for decades may be a threat to their livelihoods. And even other nations that have no love for Cheliax (namely Taldor) may be wary of Andoran seeding anti-monarchy ideals among their populace.
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
I can't help but think you've missed the point of the Gundam franchise and most of the post World War One literary tradition in which it sits--it's not that the "bad guys" are justifiable, it's that modern great power war is unjustifiable. Because World War One especially but hardly uniquely among modern wars was a vast squandering of human life for the sake of a very few variously dynastic or imperial ambitions on every side.
I'm very aware of Gundam's central thesis. In general, I very much agree with it.
But we're not discussing the morality of a war in the real world. We're discussing how a fictional war is framed in-universe to create a compelling narrative.
War is never justifiable, but that doesn't stop those who engage in it from crafting arguments attempting to justify their actions. All I'm looking for the Chelaxian side of the Hellfire Crisis to have a compelling argument to bring to the table beyond "We're the evil empire. Are you expecting us to NOT do evil empire things?"
Travelling Sasha wrote:
I am curious if the rationale behind Thrune's nationalization of the Hellknight orders is going to be expanded at all... I imagine it's going to be sold as something as simple as an attempt by Thrune to coalesce power. I hope that's not the case though, because by making them chelish orders in this particular moment will make the butchery of Breachill be seen as a Chelaxian action, which should burn whatever goodwill Cheliax has left with its non-allied neighbors. For a nation that serves Hell and thus Asmodeus, they could really take note from his game plan... They are really dense when considering their image and relationships, and other soft power notions.
I dunno. Seems very trivial for Thrune to avoid war here, she just has to like... Not nationalize them and stay quiet, since they don't represent Cheliax. So, I wonder if she actually wants to initiate it? Maybe she can argue that the defense of Breachill by Andoran forces against Chelaxian forces (the Hellknights in question) was an Andorian agression in Chelaxian territory, which... Can be seen as true with an odd legalese reading, I guess. If this can be sold properly as such, then maybe Taldor and Kyonin involving themselves in Andoran's behalf could make them look bad and as such, isolate Andoran in the war? So Thrune thinks she could have a chance? Sounds kinda flimsy, to be honest.
I hope there's some sort of devilish plan going on and the Chelaxian leadership isn't just going full in against a stacked deck, just because.
By all accounts it was Andoran's intention to frame their actions in Isger as a proxy war, since the Eagle Knights are also a quasi-independent military order that aren't technically under Andoran's control, thus allowing Andoran to distance itself diplomatically.
Abby nationalizing the Hellknights pretty much puts a stop to that. She's making a firm statement that the Hellknight orders (to say nothing of Isger itself) belong to Cheliax and that if Andoran wants a fight, they're fighting with her directly.
How that plays diplomatically depends on a lot of factors that we don't know yet, I think. Hellknights slaughtering innocents while engaging in a policing action is bad, but Andoran invading to kick them out is a violation of Chelaxian sovereignty (at least in their eyes).
Not particularly surprised, but seriously, is playing a Chelaxian character who isn't actively fighting against House Thrune even supported anymore?
It's supported in any AP that isn't about fighting House Thrune, I imagine. There are many adventures and APs that are fitting for a Chelaxian character to be present. If you instead mean "When will I be able to play a Chelaxian fighting on the side of House Thrune?" then I think you'll be waiting some time - they've stated that there aren't many writers interested in writing an AP that explicitly evil, and that players show substantially reduced interest in it as well, so it'll likely not happen in an AP for some time. Perhaps an Adventure might be more possible?
Fair enough. I admit, I was being somewhat hyperbolic.
But this whole thing was billed as being the start to a massive Inner Sea War, and when I think "war story", I think something along the lines of a Gundam series. A story where even the "bad guys" have a point and rationale behind their actions that reasonable people can get behind and which side is in the right is entirely a matter of perspective.
Instead, by all accounts, it's seemingly been narrowed down to Cheliax vs. Andoran (over Isgeri independence, at least initially) and there is absolutely zero ambiguity over who the good guys are and who the bad guys are.
I was hoping for "Gundam", instead we get "Star Wars". You are the heroic rebellion fighting for freedom. You're fighting against the tyranny of the evil empire. Stop thinking Darth Vader is kinda cool, you're supposed to fear/hate him.
I've been a fan of Cheliax from my first forays into the setting back in 1e, when I joined up with a local PFS lodge. They needed a dedicated healer, I chose an oracle - I enjoy a bit of edge/moral ambiguity to my characters and was reading A Song of Ice and Fire at the time, and so I took some inspiration from Melisandre the Red Witch and gave my oracle the flames mystery. Learn a bit more about the setting, weave in some Planescape Blood War/Law vs. Chaos influences, and before long the character's a LN Asmodeus-worshiper from Cheliax that is a committed demon hunter.
I played that character through retirement (13th level) and have watched 2e gradually strip away aspects of her characterization from basically day one. Can't be a neutral Asmodeus worshiper anymore. Demons aren't weak to Law damage anymore, just Good damage. Original 2e flame oracle made it so using any non-AoE targeted spell came with a flat failure chance once your curse got going because visual impairment was baked in - great for blasting, not so great for individual spot healing and hitting demons with dimensional anchor and banishment. Ironically, I'm among the few who actually likes the remastered oracle more.
Come the remaster, and Law/Chaos has been stripped away entirely and the only thing that matters anymore is Holy/Unholy - not blaming Paizo for WotC's OGL nonsense, but they've still gone out of their way to make Holy sanctification and wielding cold iron basically the only ways to specialize in demon slaying now. Guess I should get used to spamming the Needle Darts cantrip.
And now, it seriously feels as though Cheliax as it currently exists is on the verge of being written out of the setting. We have two upcoming APs tied to the Hellfire Crisis, with the first being centered on freeing Isger from Chelaxian influence. As to the second, I honestly don't know what else Cheliax has left to lose except House Thrune itself and/or its alliance with Hell, and either one of which would basically cripple Cheliax for years to come and functionally destroy one of my favorite parts of the setting.
If this were a long running war game, Rahadoum claiming the Arch of Aroden would have serious long-term strategic ramifications while leaving Cheliax itself intact, but that doesn't feel "climactic" enough to be the central focus of an entire AP's narrative arc. Likewise, I can't see Andoran successfully fending off a Chelaxian invasion to be sufficient - maintaining status quo (sans Isger) isn't going to be enough. They're going to hit Cheliax hard and Cheliax is going to lose something significant, and again, I don't think that they really have all that much left they can lose without fundamentally changing into something different.
On top of that, the bulk of my actual play experience has been in PFS and between not being able to worship Asmodeus (evil/unholy only, and now full-on restricted), not being able to have an imp familiar (boon-only as of PC2's release), and now having the Pathfinder Society itself take side in a war against the nation my character is still ostensibly loyal to, I have a hard time seeing how my character is even feasible anymore outside of a home game.
So yes, I was being somewhat hyperbolic. But only somewhat.
With both the inciting incident of the Hellfire Crisis and a major related Adventure Path set in Isger (with a direct sequel to follow), I have to wonder if next year is an Old Cheliax year.
Wouldn't be surprised.
I believe they mentioned in the Hellfire Crisis panel Q&A that remastered Hellknight archetypes are not in Battlecry, but "stay tuned", so between that and Abrogail's push to nationalize the Hellknight orders under the Chelaxian state following the Battle of Breachill, I suspect that make either a LO: Old Cheliax, a LO: Hellknights, or both fairly likely.
I guess the real question is, would an Old Cheliax book be the region as it exists currently or as it will exist following both Hellfire Crisis APs (and thus potentially post-Thrune)?
The Order of the Torrent is based up in Kintargo, so...
To be sure. I never assumed everyone would just bend the knee - just wasn't sure if those that didn't would still be Hellknights in the end, or drop the name and either reorganize into something else or transition to more generic knightly orders and mercenary groups.
Watching the PaizoCon Keynote and Hellfire Crisis panels.
Seems Abrogail's response to Eagle Knights kicking the Order of the Rack out of Breachill is to officially nationalize the Hellknight orders as agents of the Chelaxian state.
Not sure how I feel about that...
EDIT: They mention a bit later that some of the orders refuse to submit to the crown, so there are still some independent Hellknights out there. They specifically called out the Orders of the Torrent and Nail as such.
EDIT II: "Hellfire Crisis Phase II" AP is essentially a direct sequel to Hellbreakers, so we're not getting anything from the Chelaxian perspective...
Not particularly surprised, but seriously, is playing a Chelaxian character who isn't actively fighting against House Thrune even supported anymore?
Like the thing about Villains in an ongoing story that is not building to a specific conclusion is that you need for villains to lose both because "good triumphing over evil" is generally satisfying to the reader and in order to make room for new villains. Like we closed the Worldwound, but then Tar-Baphon got out. When Tar-Baphon gets put down for good, almost certainly something worse is going to crop up.
So even if the Thrune dynasty were ended completely, there is very little that Cheliax has contributed to the ongoing story that couldn't be replaced going forward with an expansionist Molthune or Mzali or Oprak if they wanted. I'm all for putting the "devil-themed" villains in the background for a while so we can have other problems, just like how Batman has to beat the Joker from time to time so we can tell stories about Bane or Clayface or the Riddler.
Due respect, but you're not talking about "defeating" Cheliax. Cheliax has been defeated loads of times - you yourself were previously bemoaning about how it was mainly known for being menacing and taking Ls.
What you're talking about is ending the Cheliax we've had for the entire lifetime of the Lost Omens setting and turning it into something else.
It genuinely feels unlikely that Cheliax is going to prevail here, since the Pathfinder Society is throwing its weight against Cheliax (what with Thrune closing the lodges in her country) and we know how much weight they carry in the metaplot.
While Cheliax is one of the few that outright kicked them out, many nations would like the Pathfinder Society to be more careful, then there is the Aspis thing.
The observation that "whichever side the Pathfinder Society ends up on is likely to prevail" is less about actual geopolitics and more that the actions of the Pathfinder Society in the metaplot will he modeled in PFS scenarios and you don't really want to just tell your dedicated organized play people that everything they did was pointless due to editorial fiat.
Like when PFS sets out to do something over the course of a season, that thing usually happens.
The Pathfinder Society fought against agents of Tar-Baphon in the tie-ins for Tyrant's Grasp and is arguably why the heroes of that AP even had the opportunity to defeat him at all. None of that saved Lastwall or stopped the Whispering Tyrant's return to power in the Gravelands.
Just because the PFS is throwing in on one side of the conflict doesn't mean that side is guaranteed to win - it's possible their contributions will be the difference between Cheliax securing a limited victory and utterly steamrolling over the other powers of the Inner Sea.
On a more personal note, it does nonetheless continue a frustrating trend of discouraging any Chelaxian PFS character that isn't actively fighting against their homeland in some way. Even if I were able to find an active PFS group in my area and find a 2e build that works for her, my main PFS character is now squarely in the position where staying true to her character and established loyalties means I just flat out can't play her anymore.
It was the opposite of a pyrrhic victory. It revealed and caused the removal of a number of internal enemies, it turned its most troublesome province into a reluctant allied nation, it forced the Church of Asmodeus and House Thrune to stop playing quite so many games with each other, and it gave them a strong drive for real victories.
To be sure, it was absolutely a win. But it was still an internal uprising, and House Thrune wants to look like its hegemony and infernal dealings are keeping Cheliax stable.
Even though they are arguably in a better position now than they were before, the Glorious Reclamation and the secession of Ravounel make it look like they didn't have their own house in order. It makes them look weaker and more fragile than they actually are, and that plays into the perception of their role in the coming Inner Sea War.
Cheliax marshalling for war should make people think "How are we going to stop them and what will we lose in the attempt?", not "Well, guess it's finally time to go put down Abby."
Morhek wrote:
I don't know if I count Hell's Vengeance as a W, more like not taking as bad an L for once. A clear, unambiguous W is long overdue I think.
And as someone who hasn't been particularly interested in Andoran, a Chelaxian occupation of Andoran might get my attention. Especially if it brings Cheliax's functional borders right up against Taldor's, and sets up a protracted Cold War before the even bigger conflict that I've often thought would be perfect, with Cheliax as a fading great power trying to revive its fortunes, while Taldor's star is on the ascent but still fragile as it recovers from centuries of decline. Taldor funding and supporting the Andoran resistance, supporting an Andoran government-in-exile, Cheliax recruiting its own Quislings and Petains and consolidating the Lumber Consortium under the Chellish banner, the Andoran colonies going independent and having to rely more on their Segadan neighbours to fight of Chelaxian ships trying to assert their dominance, that sets up a very cool future status leading up to Inner Sea War II. Especially since, given their histories, most Inner Sea powers have no reason to look more kindly on a resurgent Taldor than they do Cheliax's waning iron grip. At least Cheliax has been doing something to oppose the Whispered Tyrant.
Also was against a homegrown rebellion that managed to take and hold (however briefly) the old capital of Westcrown and occurred at roughly the same that Ravounel was engaging in their ultimately successful secession.
Sure, it was a win, but Cheliax/House Thrune still walked away with one heck of a black eye.
I imagine the ending of the war after Cheliax loses is not going to be "Cheliax is a good place now" but "Cheliax is deeply unstable- even if parts of it are better, other parts are much worse."
Since the history of Pathfinder, Cheliax has served as "the stable authoritarian country where the evil people are in charge" but they don't really do much in the metaplot sense than "be menacing" and "take 'L's." "Cheliax falls into chaos" is more interesting than "Cheliax just continues as is."
I happen to like big, stable, evil, authoritarian Cheliax.
All you're suggesting is explicitly blowing it up and reducing one of the big power players in the Inner Sea to a chaotic morass of squabbling factions and civil wars (again) that will inevitably be under the thumb of various neighboring powers for years to come.
It's like taking a painstakingly crafted lego model, smashing it into its component pieces, and telling those of us that liked it to be satisfied with all the cool stuff that can be built with it now.
If you want a menacing evil empire that keeps taking Ls to start doing more in the metaplot, let it get a W or two every once in a while - a Cheliax with some wind in its sails is FAR more interesting to me than torching the whole thing and hoping something compelling can rise out of its ashes.
As someone who finds the idea of a post-Thrune Cheliax to be way less interesting or narratively compelling than the "good" ol' devil empire we have currently, I'm not particularly thrilled with the idea of this war being framed entirely around toppling the current Chelaxian regime.
If we're doing a war story, I want something in the vein of a Gundam series (sans mecha), where both sides legitimately have a point about the causes of the war and what is needed to end it that "good" characters can get behind even while recognizing the bad actors among their ranks and the atrocities committed in the name of their cause.
If I recall, it's the non-OGL replacement for the term "great wyrm" - basically, the term referring to the oldest and most powerful of dragons.
My reasoning is how not all Archdevils are deities like Asmodeus, just like not all Demon Lords are deities like Lamashtu. In both cases, they grant spells and domains nonetheless.
For me, those "archdragons" feel like VERY ancient dragons, powerful enough to grant divine favors.
Misunderstanding on my part. Thought you were asking what archdragons are.
Because I'm predictable, let's get the obvious ones out of the way:
Lost Omens: Old Cheliax (For whatever reason, I love Cheliax and want to see how it responds to the upcoming Hellfire Crisis and broader Inner Sea War)
Lost Omens: Hellknights (With the loss of alignment, the Hellknight archetype needs a complete overhaul)
Book of the Damned (A Fiend creature type and Hell/Outer Rift/Abaddon planar deep dive, a la Rage of Elements - I need me some Diabolist options)
Beyond that, I have a lot of disparate interests.
I'd like to see something that brings the Beastbrood Rakshasa-spawn heritage up to date (I imagine as a stand-alone versatile heritage, a la Hungerseed, given that Rakshasa are spirits now rather than fiends, just like oni), along with more about how the post-remaster de-OGL-ification has impacted Rakshasa lore. Depending on how much Impossible Lands content is touched on in the book the "Impossible" playtest feeds into, it might fit there, but otherwise, might need to wait for a Lost Omens: Vudra.
I'd also like some deeper insights into the current state of New Thassilon, so a Lost Omens: Saga Lands would be nice.
And while I don't know where it would fit product-wise, I'd like to finally get a proper Synthesist Summoner option. Honestly, while I know they've stated it'd likely be a class archetype, I'd prefer if they figured out a way to work it into the base Summoner class so that playing the summoner and eidolon separate or merged can be a tactical choice, rather than something you're locked into from level 1.
So with this war, are we going to see Cheliax take more beatings and stop being a threat, or be utterly defeated and another big bad empire is removed from the board?
I am afraid about the same thing to be honest. "Hellbreakers" sounds a lot like Cheliax will loose this. And removing the last "Big bad evil empire" might feel good while doing so in the story itself, but leaves a big hole afterwards narrative-wise.
I believe "Hellbreakers" is also the name of an anti-Cheliax faction in Isger, so it may just be named that to signify that the group known as the Hellbreakers are a central focus of the AP.
It's admittedly been a while since I went through either in detail, but aside from relative proximity (both being set in different Varisian city-states) the only direct connection that comes to mind is the disease, Vorel's phage, and it's much more contagious variant blood veil.
Obviously, spoilers for The Skinsaw Murders (RotRL Book 2) and Seven Days to the Grave (CotCT Book 2):
Essentially, in the backstory for the second book of RotRL, the wizard Vorel Foxglove was interrupted at a key moment in a ritual to transform himself into a lich by his wife (who knew nothing about her husband's actions), causing the ritual to fail spectacularly and seemingly "killing" him with the backlash. However, instead of truly "dying", Vorel was instead transformed into a kind of vaguely-sentient disease, later named Vorel's phage, which swiftly killed his wife and children and has lingered in the mold and vermin in the depths of Foxglove Manor ever since, never really spreading beyond it's borders but inevitably dooming anyone who attempts to claim the property, particularly his various relatives.
Decades later, the manor's current owner/occupant Aldern Foxglove murders his new wife over an assumed affair with one of the workers helping to renovate the manor and falls under the sway of Magnimar's Skinsaw Cult in his attempts to cover it up. The cult, which has its own ties to the property (and to Vorel himself), was recently taken over by the lamia matriarch Xanesha, one of Karzoug's underlings, who doesn't really care about the cult itself and was merely using it for her own ends but definitely recognizes a business opportunity when she sees one, as the cult was also in contact with Red Mantis assassins who were looking for new and interesting diseases that might be useful in their line of work. So, as part of payment for their "help" in covering up Aldern's crimes, she tasks him with delving into the depths of the manor and returning with a number of disease samples to pass along to the Red Mantis, making a tidy profit for herself and definitely ensuring that Aldern was infected, leading to his gradual transformation into the psychotic ghast he becomes by the time the events of the book start in earnest.
While Aldern Foxglove and the Skinsaw Cult are the primary antagonists for The Skinsaw Murders, that's pretty much as far as the disease subplot goes in RotRL. It picks up again in the second book of CotCT (Seven Days to the Grave), where the newly crowned Queen Ileosa of Korvosa hatches a scheme to purge her city of undesirables, namely Varisians and the poor, and tasks the Red Mantis, whom she was already in contact with due to their aid in her murder of her late husband, with engineering a plague.
With the aid of an amoral Chelaxian doctor and the cult of Urgathoa, they develop their samples of Vorel's phage into a less immediately deadly, but far more contagious variant they name blood veil, which is then unleashed upon the city, forming the backbone of the plot for that book.
There's a decent chance Battlecry! is tied into an in-universe event similar to how War of Immortals was tied to the death of Gorum and the Godsrain, which isn't too surprising as we've had murmurings of a coming war for some time - there are plenty of theories as to who will be fighting whom, but because I'm extremely predictable, I'm hoping for Cheliax vs. Andoran.
If that turns out to be the case, I think there's at least a chance we might see an update to the Hellknight archetypes - even though the Hellknight orders aren't technically subservient to the Chelaxian state.
Probably more likely to end up in a Lost Omens: Hellknights faction book a la Firebrands, to be fair, but I figure there's at least a possibility.
By no means an exhaustive list, but I've had a couple of hypothetical "new" versatile heritages on the brain of late...
First is a "Jotunblood" heritage that does for giants what Dragonblood does for dragons.
Second is bringing the Beastbrood Rakshasa-spawn up to date. Between the changes to Rakshasa as a creature family post-remaster (no longer being fiends, for one) and the fact that Hungerseed got spun off into their own VH, it seems inevitable that Beastbrood will eventually be given the same treatment. Perhaps in the upcoming book that the Impossible playtest is linked to, if it is thematically tied to the Impossible Lands as a region? Or a full-on setting guide for Vudra?
Whatever book this playtest feeds into has presumably been cooking for some time, so it's entirely possible they couldn't delay the playtest even if they wanted to without disrupting the book's planned release schedule.
That is FAR more impactful than a batch of errata needing to be delayed, so it makes sense to me why the playtest would be given priority - assuming the decisions on release timing for either are even connected in the first place, which is an assumption I'm dubious on.
Don't have the source on hand at the moment, but I remember them stating on stream (PaizoCon, perhaps?) that Mortal Herald is both a high level (12+) archetype and can serve as a mythic destiny if you're using the mythic rules - i.e. it's been built in such a way that you can ignore the options that explicitly require the mythic ruleset and still have a functional archetype to work with.
Which is pretty much how the mythic destinies from WoI are constructed anyway, so far as I've seen.
Don't have my physical copy of War of Immortals yet, so I can't recall if it's in the book proper or in the alternate mythic rules pdf they released to accompany it, but I seem to recall they've stated that you can use the WoI mythic destinies as regular archetypes by simply skipping over any option that requires the use of mythic points.
Had a long simmering character concept that I've considered for Strange Aeons in the past... Let's see if I can shake of the 1e rust enough to build them into something coherent...
Cliffsnotes version:
Transient Varisian who was caught up in a nebulous Dark Tapestry-esque event in his youth that left him with a split personality floating around in his head. May or may not have originated as two separate individuals somehow forced into the same body - opinions differ.
Considering building as a Cabalist Vigilante or Dark Tapestry Oracle, but need to think on it for a bit to see where things shake out.
So will there be a way to get access to this in PFS or is this just for home games?
The degree to which mythic rules generally do or do not get integrated into PFS will be dependent of the needs of the campaign.
The rules clarifications and updates will be treated just like any other official rules clarifications and updates are generally treated for organized play.
I mean more specifically the exemplar class and archetype. I'm not too concerned/worried about mythic rules being in PFS. Unless you're saying this class is part of 'mythic rules' and to play with an exemplar is synonymous with playing with at least some part of the mythic rules.
I'd love to play it in PFS, I guess, is what I'm saying.
There are a number of character options that PFS specifically grants players access to that would otherwise be locked away behind a boon (that may or may not exist) due to their rarity - a number of ancestries (poppet, kobold, etc.) and versatile heritages (nephilim, changeling, etc.), the gunslinger and inventor classes, and so on.
No official word on whether the exemplar is going to be added to that list as of yet, but it wouldn't surprise me.
I suspect we'll get an answer fairly soon, possibly by the book's official release day.
So, will the mythic rules be used at all in Pathfinder Society? I imagine that we will hear soon about what will be sanctioned from the book.
Unlikely, though there might be specific scenarios that allow PCs to dabble in mythic in a limited, controlled manner - there was a two-parter module for 1e PFS that did something along those lines, if I recall...
Still in the proverbial larval stages, but the Hungerseed heritage and Spirit Warrior archetype have tapped into my inner weeb to the point that I - a lifelong caster main - am seriously considering a "straight-up" fighter for the purposes of putting together a shounen-manga-style swordsman/samurai.
Possibly two, actually... The Hungerseed idea started it, but it also helped revive a much, much older non-TTRPG "samurai" character concept I've had, which then proceeded to pick up some lightning flavoring by way of the Dragonblood heritage and the imperial sky dragon from PFS's expanded dragon options table, in the process absorbing elements of an unrelated blue dragon draconic sorcerer concept that had been languishing ever since chromatic dragon options were deprecated with PC2.
If you are detecting the influence of One Piece - and more specifically, of the Wano arc - in there, that is absolutely intentional.
I do hope that Cheliax gets some representation amongst the assorted minor schools - my first/favorite PFS character was a Chelaxian demon hunter of the Hellknight (Signifer) variety who spent a large chunk of her career killing demons in the Worldwound during the tie-in season for Wrath of the Righteous, so even if the official position is that Cheliax and the Hellknight orders didn't have much of a presence in the Fifth Crusade, this seems like precisely the kind of event she'd be interested in attending.
Also because this is liable to be the only place we might get some diabolist/devil-binder options, short of a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax or Book of the Damned...
For what it's worth, it seems the Ashes and Time mysteries are getting remastered in the upcoming Divine Mysteries book, alongside the introduction of an entirely new Blight mystery: Reddit link
As someone who played the heck out of a flames oracle in 1e PFS, the original 2e oracle never sat quite right with me.
I adored the 1e oracle for its capacity for customization, and 2e locked that down tight. I never felt that I could do much with the original 2e oracle except lean into the playstyle prescribed by its chosen mystery, which was particularly irritating since the 2e flames oracle was all about being visually impaired and spontaneously combusting while my 1e oracle spent her first couple of revelations on fire resistance and the ability to see through flame and smoke. I genuinely felt that I'd be better able to represent my old oracle in 2e as a diabolic sorcerer (to try and keep some measure of divine casting) or fire kineticist (sacrificing casting entirely to go full fire bender) than trying to do so as an actual oracle.
For all the supposed loss of "flavor" in the remastered 2e oracle, I feel like I can actually use it to build something approaching my old oracle now, at least so far as base class is concerned. Obviously mandatory spontaneous combustion is still a thing, but I can live with that.
Not especially surprised that the chromatic/metallic draconic sorcerer options are being phased out, but I can't help but be a bit disappointed.
Had a concept for a blue dragon sorcerer simmering in my head for some time, but no real opportunity to actually build and play it, and neither the Imperial Sky Dragon nor the Primal Cloud Dragon - the only two "lightning" dragons now available - hit the aesthetic I was aiming for...
"Cannot be avoided or mitigated" means that fire damage caused to a flames oracle as the direct result of their curse cannot be mitigated through fire resistance or immunity.
Resistance/immunity works fine for mitigating any other fire damage they may take, but the persistent fire damage from their curse bypasses it.
Same concept with anything else. If your curse imposes a condition, effects that mitigate that condition in other circumstances won't help.
and I likewise only had to pay for a single atonement in my entire PFS career (played through the Eyes of the Ten "retirement" scenarios), due to an effect that forced alignment shift toward evil written into the scenario being played at the time.
Flashback:
I played that scenario with a *Mystery Cultist*. (Prestige Class like a diabolist, but for angels.) When the choice came up, I started off refusing the thing, until the GM started not-so-subtly-hinting that I should do it. So I did, made the alignment shift and *immediately* lost 3 levels of abilities (including spellcasting). The GM was chagrinned that she hadn't realized how alignment dependent my class was, but I was the one who was useless until we could get an atonement. (Which she did make available before the end of the scenario, but it was pretty rough until then.)
Oof... I got off easy on that one.
Unrelated, though, it does remind me... When are we getting a Rage of Elements-style book for fiends, Paizo? I have zero illusions of being able to play it in modern PFS, but I need me some Diabolist options!
Never had a problem playing a Lawful Neutral Asmodean in PFS when it was still allowed. I was only given a warning for being "disruptive" once due to making a joke about wanting to banish another player's quasit familiar (my character was styled as something of a professional demon hunter) and I likewise only had to pay for a single atonement in my entire PFS career (played through the Eyes of the Ten "retirement" scenarios), due to an effect that forced alignment shift toward evil written into the scenario being played at the time.
The issue I have - the issue I have always had - is that that conceptual space has been erased out from under me in 2e. I'm now put in the position where I must either make my character more evil/unholy (and thus more unplayable) in order to keep their faith in Asmodeus "legitimate", or purposefully delegitimize their faith by making them a heretic, a poser, or simply delusional.
And that's before accounting for the fact that leaning into Law vs. Chaos is what made the character work, and that has been all but gutted. I built my entire character around the 1e Asmodean Demon Hunter religion trait and the backstory of the Hellknight orders, namely that they were initially founded to combat a cult of demon worshipers - now the "official" diabolic position (per Monster Core) seems to be "Why kill demons when we can USE them?" and the only things Hellknights seem to be focused on combatting these days are "terrestrial" matters like rebels and criminals.
My issue is that the way they've handled him in 2e has always been a change from how they did it in 1e, where LN Asmodeus worshipers were at least theoretically supported.
Dispater is always there for when you want to be a kinder, friendlier devil worshiper, after all.
Dispater isn't the patron deity of a major Inner Sea nation and, if past is prologue, will be just as banned as Asmodeus as far as PFS is concerned, regardless of his sanctification allowances.
I get that the official line is that you can't have a neutral/unsanctified Asmodeus worshipper anymore. Reiterating that fact doesn't make it less frustrating that it renders character concepts I enjoyed effectively unplayable and makes me feel like I have to work extra hard to justify playing any Chelaxian character that doesn't come with the words "Ask me how I'm a subversive element" tattooed on their forehead.
While there are certain social observances a citizen of Cheliax is expected to participate, I'm pretty sure there are members of the nobility in good standing who aren't really whole-hearted devil worshipers. There's a big gulf between "participating in the social aspects of a state religion" and "accepting spells from Asmodeus."
Certainly consistent with how they've handled Asmodeus throughout 2e.
My issue is that the way they've handled him in 2e has always been a change from how they did it in 1e, where LN Asmodeus worshipers were at least theoretically supported.
That was a conceptual space I enjoyed playing in, and it no longer exists.
I understand the reasoning, but it still irks me that Chelaxian PCs are basically locked out of their state religion in PFS (and anywhere else that bans evil/unholy characters).
Like the reason the only sanctifications available are "Holy" and "Unholy" is that if you look at all previous Pathfinder adventure, almost all of the "Law" vs. "Chaos" stories also map onto "Good" vs. "Evil".
Like Hell's Rebels was "Chaotic Good vs. Lawful Evil" story, Wrath of the Righteous was "Lawful Good vs. Chaotic Evil". They just weren't, for whatever reason, interested in "Lawful Good vs. Chaotic Good" or "Lawful Evil vs. Chaotic Evil" sorts of stories.
But it's easy to make your own systems for something like this.
The first Hellknights were canonically brought together in order to combat a cult of demon-worshipers.
Why should a Hellknight champion need to be holy-sanctified in order to be an effective demon slayer?
Is it officially called archfiend? I seem to recall them saying that "apocalypse rider" was one of the nine, has that changed?
Apocalypse Rider and Archfiend are both present- they are separate Mythic Destinies.
Fascinating - this was in the keynote, I assume?
Aenigma wrote:
ornathopter wrote:
I guess we have another reason why they couldn't call the mythic destiny Horseman of the Apocalypse - the iconic is riding a goblin dog.
I don't remember I have ever seen that particular art. Where can I see it?
The "Godsrain - Death and Renewal" panel from yesterday. Hopefully it will make it onto YouTube at some point, but it's on the Paizo twitch channel, about three and a quarter hours into yesterday's 8-hour PaizoCon stream: Twitch Video Link (Skipped to start of the panel)
Bokavordur wrote:
I haven't read everything, so unsure if it's been said (it almost certainly has haha), I REALLY want and hope for an Eldest/Archfey path. Whether or not becoming fey or just kind of channeling the power and becoming the embodiment of fey nature.
Don't know if there's a Fey related destiny, but for what it's worth, they mention that Divine Mysteries will have a "Mortal Herald" Mythic Destiny, so it seems to be a system they plan add to in future products, where appropriate.
I'm interested in all the class updates, especially oracle and champion which are really a pain to play until they update since their major class features should be heavily modified.
I'm curious how much champion will actually change outside of grouping it's subclasses in holy or unholy buckets and making its application of spirit damage less fiddly
Still hoping for a Champion who can be neither Holy nor Unholy.
Hope is fading faster these days though.
This sort of statement makes me believe that's some of the reason they made the guardian class. For people who want a tank type class without getting tied up in the holy/unholy war
If a cleric isn't required to be sanctified by the deity they worship, then a champion shouldn't be either.
There should be options available for unsanctified champions, if for no other reason than the fact that some deities (notably Pharasma) forbid sanctification entirely.
Magus isn't going to be in Player Core 2, so as far as I understand, we won't be getting anything more than standard errata passes for the time being. Certainly not a full-on revision like many of the core classes are getting.
That may change if/when they decide to do a big "arcane magic" sourcebook again - we know they have to revisit the Runelord class archetype, for one, so I expect it'll happen eventually - but there's nothing announced to that effect as of yet.
