The fact that NPCs can change alignment at all is evidence to the contrary of your "Alignments are hard-wired. Period." stance. The fact that there are rules, spells, and items, that deal specifically with alignment change, whether to force it or prevent it, makes the argument of alignment change being possible a moot one, since it's spelled out that yes, it is, and it isn't just limited to PCs.3. I am, and I believe the thread is too, discussing the population of Golarion in general, not characters. Characters are our special flowers that we control. Thus the internal alignment struggle can be an excellent part of our roleplay experience but PC's are not normal people.
4. Although the possibility of redemption and alignment change do exist in Golarion, that sort of thing is in my opinion for special NPC's and PC's for the purpose of driving adventure and story telling. Your average evil BBG is evil because he is evil and he will always be evil and that is if he is not absolutely evil because he is a race or creature that is inherently evil. Assuming of course that he is evil.
Did you read the "that sort of thing is for special NPC's and PC's etc? I mean you quoted it!
Anyway, as I said above while we were posting at the same time, I made too absolute a case. Of course alignment can be changed. But for the vast majority of NPC's it does not change unless it is in service to the story. IF you want to look at the world as a vast constantly shifting field of alignments where all NPC's alignments fluctuate daily based on their decisions then ...OK. But I don't think evil merchant #2's alignment is really neutral and he is just currently making a lot of bad decisions.
To go back to the OP...Why worship an evil deity?
"Because I am evil, not neutral and currently making a lot of bad decisions. I am an NPC who exists solely to make the world an interesting place for a group of heroes and possible as an opponent for them to come and stop."
Since this thread has slightly degenerated into an afterlife discussion anyway... I have a true neutral character worshipping Irori. Would she go to Axis (LN afterlife) or not?
I would say no unless she is a priest or other divine character. Monk? Maybe if especially devout.
Maybe so, but if you spend 15 years kicking puppies you are evil and are not going to spend 30 years taking care of orphans. You are going to go on to be a serial killer.
The gray area is neutrality.
1. A boy who does not kick puppies but also does not help puppies in need = neutral.
2. A boy who kicks puppies for years = evil.
3. A boy who helps puppies in need = good
Boy #1 might go on to run an orphanage and end up good boy #2 won't. That is because boy #1 started out neutral and boy #2 started out evil.
But if you don't believe that some people are just born bad, that is ok because it doesn't change anything. By the time they are 3 or 4 years old they are that way even if they didn't "start" that way. Unless the PC's are dealing with toddler NPC's their alignment is set.
Yes, it could change, but it probably won't, and certainly won't while the PC's are dealing with him/her so the possibility of change doesn't matter except in very rare circumstances.
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1) lust for power
2) Insanity (esp for followers of Qlippolth lords, Rovagug, The four Horsemen and the leader of the Divs)
3) It's fun and you're a terrible person (this is the case with my LN cleric of Zon Kuthon, she skirts the borders between LE and LN and is generally an objectionable person)
4) Tradition. You're a goblin, so your worship goblin gods because you're a goblin and that's what goblins do
Maybe so, but if you spend 15 years kicking puppies you are evil and are not going to spend 30 years taking care of orphans. You are going to go on to be a serial killer.That's not true either. That's like saying that because you pulled the dog's tail a lot when you were a kid that you're going to skin it alive when you're 20. You're assuming that people can't change.
I used to have tons of fun tormenting my cat as a kid. I did it for years. But I grew up, and now I love my cat just because she's a cat and she's fluffy. Maybe I don't give her as much attention as I should, but I also don't toss her 10 feet in the air time and time again, or trap her in a cardboard box for a few hours before letting her out. Again, I grew up. I realized that kicking the cat was wrong, and so I stopped. I'm not a serial killer because I kicked the cat while I was growing up.
What about those people who are sent to prison for murder and become reformed pacifists? Or racists who realize that hey, those other people really aren't that different? I guess that's all a sham and a lie too, because no one ever does that. It just could never happen, ever.
I hate to admit this but we are talking about two different things. You are looking for truth but I am talking about probability.
A simple way of looking at your example is that you were neutral as a kid. You did things that you later realized you did not like. You are my boy #1. That does not preclude the existence of boys #2 and #3.
Because I worked in the legal field, I can tell you that the vast majority of crimes are committed by repeat offenders and the vast majority of people who get out of prison commit more crimes. A better question to ask is how many killers who are never caught change their ways.
As I said above, sure, some people change. Those people in game terms tend to be neutral. Hard cases rarely change.
What I am really interested in is the GAME WORLD (not real world) and how it interacts with my characters or if I am GM the characters of my players.
1. Sure based on the rules alignments can be changed. Does that mean people are changing alignments all of the time? It doesn't seem that way.
a. Most NPC's are described as an alignment. They are not described as one of several alignments based on the situation.
b. Only very very very rarely is an NPC described as having changed alignments and only when it is a big part of the story.
2. Alignment change is gradual so it won't happen right the instant an NPC is dealing with my character so for all intents and purposes that NPC has an absolute alignment at the time I am dealing with him/her. I know this to be true because spells exist that tell me alignment absolutely.
3. It therefore makes sense to deal with NPC's as if they have an absolute alignment, unless there is a very special story driven reason to do otherwise.
For people of any alignment, the place they go to at death is the place that truly resonates with their souls. Alignment reflects who you really are inside, so if you are of Evil alignment, then you are in tune with what will happen to you and it feel right in some way. While the books seem to be written assuming the reader and bulk of PC's are good/neutral, which obviously would put a negative slant on the Evil person's afterlife.
For an Evil character, going to one of the good planes after death would be....very uncomfortable, depressing and would be tortuous, and hence, not in tune with that plane and it's state of being.
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I hate to admit this but we are talking about two different things. You are looking for truth but I am talking about probability.
A simple way of looking at your example is that you were neutral as a kid. You did things that you later realized you did not like. You are my boy #1. That does not preclude the existence of boys #2 and #3.
Because I worked in the legal field, I can tell you that the vast majority of crimes are committed by repeat offenders and the vast majority of people who get out of prison commit more crimes. A better question to ask is how many killers who are never caught change their ways.
As I said above, sure, some people change. Those people in game terms tend to be neutral. Hard cases rarely change.
Basing anything involving redemption or rehabilitation on the prison system is a terrible idea. Those places could not be more poorly designed to actually rehabilitate people. People change, if they try and particularly if others help them.
Additionally, and more importantly, we're not just talking about adults changing their moral framework, we're talking about children developing one. I've made something of a study of serial killers, and you know what's universal among them? Horribly abusive childhoods. People who didn't get abused as children don't do that. Now, obviously, not all children who are horribly abused go on to become bad people or monsters...but the way you're brought up has a great deal to do with the kind of person you become. It's not set at birth or any crap like that.
Biology is not destiny, and the idea that it is is one of those horrible real-world notions that needs to die in a fire.
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Thank you everybody for your answers!
I wanted to share a story on the matter of evil by tradition (homebrew setting with Greyhawk's pantheon + Eilistraee, Sune and some other FR god)
During my PF campaign, the first "boss" was, Grimrat, a goblin cleric of Maglubyiet. "Ok, i guess" you would probably say. Well, it's not your typical servant of Maglubyiet.
He was a good hearted goblin. The goblin knew love from his mother, who treated him gently when he was ill, because that's what a mother does. He feigned death to escape the goblin society, he wanted to become a good person. He tried to act good and help people, but racism almost got him killed. The goblin understood he could not continue like that and eventually abandoned the thought of doing good.
That night, a devil presented itself to Grimrat in a dream, posing as Maglubyiet and told him:
"You weak fool, don't you see you are wasting your life trying to be gentle? There is no hope for you, your only hope is to come with me and embrace your race. There is no other hope, those humanoids are evil and hateful, you deserve a better life! Go to the temple of Maglubyet and become a priest! This way the meaning of your life will be fulfilled!"
Out of despair and deep sadness, the good goblin became a member in good standing of the cult of Maglubyiet and destroyed the temple of Eilistraee where Amelia (a PC NG aasimar-drow cleric of Eilistraee)lived. Amelia happened to discover Grimrat's story and the group accidentally killed the goblin in the rush of the battle.
She grew an emotional connection to him, and prayed for his soul to go to Arborea instead, because while he behaved bad, he really wanted to be good.
That prayer alone was a disaster. Grimrat was almost ready to go to Hell, but he became a ghost, torn between Hell and Arborea. He wanted to be good, and to do something good, he wanted redemption at least in death. He haunted the location of his death until the PCs finally helped him pass away.
Term. It's an rpg involving high adventure and magic. It needs baddies. Baddies are evil.
There are plenty of reasons why someone would worship or serve an evil deity. Many have already been mentioned.
1. Good expects you to earn power or reward. Evil will let you have it now in exchange for something. Why wait for the reward eternal when you can have power now?
2. Prays to Iomedae didn't save your daughter from the wasting plague. It was desperation that turned you to asking Urgathoa to spare her. The goddess did but unless you want it to strike her down again, you'll serve Urgathoa for the rest of your life.
3. Revenge and spite. The powers of good won't help you get you own back on those you feel have wronged you but the powers of evil will. A moment of revenge that leaves you indentured to darkness.
Those are just the few three to pop to mind.
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3. Revenge and spite. The powers of good won't help you get you own back on those you feel have wronged you but the powers of evil will. A moment of revenge that leaves you indentured to darkness.
I'd like to note that this particular one is vastly less likely in Golarion than most other settings just because of the existence of Calistria, a literal and explicit Goddess of Vengeance (and disproportionate vengeance at that) who isn't Evil. The vast majority of people in this situation will simply pray to her...and be more likely to receive aid than they would praying to an Evil God.
I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm just noting it should be a lot less common in Golarion.
I still really want to play the Inquisitor of Calistria loosely based on Inigo Montoya who's an Inquisitor not because he serves the goddess's will in general, but just because she's personally blessed his quest for vengeance and given him power to enact it after precisely this sort of prayer.
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My LN Wizard Maldoren worships Asmodeus. Maldoren believes in order. To his mind Chaos is the enemy of all and is the cause of most strife. Asmodeus is simply the best example of Law and Order. Maldoren may not be as willing to go as far to achieve Order as Asmodeus, he understands the motivations and necessity. Asmodeus has no moral restrictions in his quest for Order, while Maldoren through his friendship with his fellow adventurers has always maintained enough morality to be considered neutral.
So basically just because he does not always agree 100% with the teachings of Asmodeus, he still maintains enough fervor to follow what the characters consider the best option to achieve the Order the worlds needs.
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Look at the real world. Look at the corporate types who will dump toxic waste in someone else's drinking water in the name of quarterly profits and will probably never face any direct consequences or who cheats investors while walking away with the profits. These are the same people who make a donation to a church and think they're good with Jesus or who find so some other justification like Ayn Rand or whatever. They're the same type who in golorion would make deals with Asmodeus and think they're his special snowflakes....until they got to hell and found out, just before they ceased to be that they were just suckers and fuel for the devils. There are hundreds of variations of evil like this. Think on them and you have the key to evil on golorion.
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I was wondering, who would worship an evil deity. Possibly, why would a "sane" person do it. Anyone with any kind of logical capabilities. What gain would you get?
Being evil sends the characters into Hell or Abyss, and there he will suffer.At the moment, I've come up with some rationalizations, but if you can help me with more, you are welcome.
You are mad.
Out of fear. You somehow fear your god. But why him/her in particular? There are plenty of evil deities, archdevils and archdemons. And you might just as well fear good deities now...It doesn't convince me fully as is.
Maybe...you hope you will ascend the ranks of Hell and Abyss and become a devil or demon yourself?
You genuinely believe your deity is right. Well ok, why would any sane character worship a god of massacre?
You have felt/seen their power, or the power behind the domains and forces they represent.
You know where this is going, everything that is that is (not a typo). You know they the deity are going to win, and it seems the adventurers only serve to help their goals and increase their power. This was how a player I knew justified playing a cleric of Groetus. The end times were obviously coming, why at least two apocalypses almost came about when he was with the party.
He knows the game is rigged and that Groetus was going to win eventually. Great character. Very fun. He started out as a soldier that nearly died in a terrible war, and in it all one day he had a flash of wisdom and he realised how fragile everything truly is, and that the end is coming.
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Because that's what your parents worshipped? Or what the community you're in worship?
That's how most of these decisions are made on Earth and the reasoning is only stronger if attending services gives you a discount on your community's best (or only) source for medical care.
Even good characters or those playing some Pascal's Wager game would probably find a better fit among the Empyreal Lords than the major gods, but they're not poring through supplements trying to find the perfect fit. They're choosing from the handful of faiths they've had contact with.
And, if you're lawful evil and looking for a faith, Iomedae and Erastil sound just as dumb to you as they do to chaotic good people. Sure, you agree with them on some points, but they're pretty deeply misguided on others. So you end up worshiping Asmodeus because he sounds like he has his head on straight.
Cheers!
Landon
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"I was attracted to Asmodeus due to his sound grasp of economic policy and his invention of double-entry book-keeping."
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Why worship an evil deity?
Because I CAN CHANGE HIM
I think it's about a difference in perspectives, both in the way Hell is perceived on Golarion vs. here and how doing something ultimately self-destructive is perceived by the perpetrator vs. those on the outside observing. Furthermore, the motivations for evil need not be as grandiose as the pursuit of power or as petty as the pursuit of revenge. It can be for much more mundane motivations, motivations often taken for granted or even motivations that are normally considered honorable. The Virtues made twisted can be just as damning as any overt Vice.
D&D/PF's Hell, the Abyss, etc. isn't quite like the hell we know in our world. The Lower Planes are places for evil to congregate and arrange itself into social hierarchies just as much as they are places for evil to be punished. Powerful demons and demon lords may have to "pay their dues" and get punished for a time, but once they're on top they can go for a while without feeling the whole "eternal punishment" type thing. Hence, the scrambling around all the Lower Planar creatures are doing is just as much a competition for power as it is a "suffering eternal punishment for your sins" sort of thing. Therefore, we could imagine the myth of Horatio Algiers (the self-made man who rises to the top through his own efforts) or a demonic version thereof applying to the situation of rising to the top as a demonlord or the like. Extremely unlikely to happen, but it's a dream we like to hold onto nonetheless. Being faithful to an evil god may be a means to achieving the "Abyssian Dream".
Some people are in such pain that they won't or can't imagine worse hells then the one they’re in right now in the mortal world. You don't need fire and brimstone for there to be a living hell- Golarion has lots evil, unstable, or crapsack places that can be fiendish without the influence of fiends. If you live in one of these "hell-but-not-Hell-holes", then switching one hell for another may not really seem like paying that much of a price. And if your soul gets eaten up by some demon and you face ultimate oblivion, well at least that's an end to all the pain. An ultimate and irrevocable end, but an end nonetheless.
Going along with the perceived inevitability of damnation theme I'm for here, having a sense of shame for the bad things one does is normally viewed a good thing, but it's not so good if you believe that what you've done has damned you past any hope of redemption. If you're damned already, then any further sin you commit is just a drop in the bucket, ultimately meaningless. If you're already damned, there are not many worse things life can throw at you. "Damned if I do, damned if I don't" is one of the ultimate inhibition killers.
A sense of belonging is a pretty vital need that's sometimes taken for granted. I can imagine the reasons for signing up to an Evil religion might be similar to signing up for a gang. To outsiders, a gang is a force of chaos, but those inside it can be a force of order. It can give a person a sense of order structured relations and even camaraderie, a place in the social structure (however objectively horrible and abusive that might be). Because horrible groups tend to dwell in and control horrible places, they can provide those living on the fringe with a sense of stability other groups aren't in such a position to.
Finally, there are those who see and recognize the ultimate costs of Evil but are willing to accept them in exchange for a chance at benefiting other people or causes. The Faustian pact is not always made purely for the individual self. There are few things as dangerous as generosity and self-sacrifice warped into a martyrdom complex because a person so afflicted might give up almost anything to have their cause vindicated or achieved.
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Because that way Cthulhu eats you first!
Because the various religions tend to shun different things.
For example, someone who practices body modification, especially some of the more extreme forms, and is into things like S&M would probably be shunned by all the good or neutral deities to some degree. Generally because those things are considered "distasteful" in most societies. On the other hand, that's pretty much the entire schtick of Zon-Kuthon. He's basically the god of sadomasochists.
Jaded by "normal" desires? Solve the puzzle box and let Zon-Kuthon show you what true pleasure, that which you could never have known to exist, is.
While the point in general is well taken, the specific example is wrong. Shelyn is a fan of love in all it's many forms...including this one (assuming it is love and not just sex). And Calistria's definitely down with that. Cayden Cailean's probably cool with whatever makes you happy, too, as long as there's consent. Ditto Desna. And that's just ones where there's some explicit support for that attitude.
Some societies might frown on such things but there's little evidence that the Gods themselves are down on BDSM.
It's a Hellraiser reference, man, and a damn good one. I've been wondering when someone was going to go all cenobite on Zon-Kuthon.
Why worship an evil deity?Because I CAN CHANGE HIM
This has game shattering implications.
At the moment, I've come up with some rationalizations, but if you can help me with more, you are welcome.
You are mad.
Out of fear. You somehow fear your god. But why him/her in particular? There are plenty of evil deities, archdevils and archdemons. And you might just as well fear good deities now...It doesn't convince me fully as is.
Maybe...you hope you will ascend the ranks of Hell and Abyss and become a devil or demon yourself?
You genuinely believe your deity is right. Well ok, why would any sane character worship a god of massacre?
Adding to the list, from the few of the simple commoner Jeb.
More seriously I'm not sure if this game is a perfect emulation of worship and whatnot. More about having an evil snake god to kill and a good guy to worship than having a lot of reasonable options. Then again, I didn't make the gods, I just passively maybe worship them when I can't make up my own cooler gods.
My LN Wizard Maldoren worships Asmodeus. Maldoren believes in order. To his mind Chaos is the enemy of all and is the cause of most strife. Asmodeus is simply the best example of Law and Order. Maldoren may not be as willing to go as far to achieve Order as Asmodeus, he understands the motivations and necessity. Asmodeus has no moral restrictions in his quest for Order, while Maldoren through his friendship with his fellow adventurers has always maintained enough morality to be considered neutral.
So basically just because he does not always agree 100% with the teachings of Asmodeus, he still maintains enough fervor to follow what the characters consider the best option to achieve the Order the worlds needs.
Why not worship Abadar? He's the LN god of everything you just said.
Well in real life there are Satanists. From what I hear, they worship Satan for power and like the idea of burning forever when they die. Cause a bit of them are pyros. Also, they are encouraged to sin as much as they can, and as we know certain vices are pleasurable.That's not entirely true. There are various forms of Satanism, just like there are various forms of Christianity. They encompass both the belief in Satan as an actual deity and the belief in him as a symbol. While self-empowerment is typically a theme, the idea of Hell or a focus on fire usually isn't.
LaVeyan Satanism is a common, if not the most common, modern Satanist religion, and is the one practiced by the organized Church of Satan. They don't actually believe in Satan as a deity. They see Satan as a figurative representation of power, individualism, and instinctual urges. To a LaVeyan Satanist, there is no heaven or hell and all gods are externalized constructs of the human mind that were created by others to place limits on an individual's potential by forcing conformity to a common standard. Instead, LaVeyan Satanism believes that since the gods are creations of humanity and of ourselves, by worshiping a god you are worshiping yourself by proxy. So they cut out the middle man and worship themselves as their own gods, believing in individual freedom, personal power, and self-indulgence. They also don't tolerate ignorance or stupidity, and through this believe that one of a person's duties is to better themselves through education.
In fact, individuality, knowledge, and self-indulgence tend to be common tenets between the various Satanistic belief systems. Though how they go about it are often different. For instance, unlike LaVeyan Satanism, Luciferianism believes in Satan as an actual deity, but he isn't exactly the Satan portrayed in the Bible. Instead, he is the Morning Star and the Lightbringer, an angel who sought to bring knowledge and enlightenment to the world and was punished for it....
Ah interesting. I did not know these things, though I'm sure a very small amount of people are like those I described. However it sounds like the supreme majority of Satanists are among those in your definition. Good to know, thanks.
Certainly some great ground has already been covered I will add a few more I hope.
1- Moralities are for sheep. Huge "good" institutions use "morality" as a means of control. Their followers do "good" because it benefits the clergy, or the powerful in society. Instead I scorn such sheep thinking and serve a divine being similarly driven. This idea was talked a lot by Nitzhe.
2- FEAR- Sate the evil god's lust for blood by the taking of life or his anger will be riled and he will take that blood in a fit of terrible rage. Hence the village elders send a madien to be taken by Kong, or the dragon, or whatever. For this follower appeasing the god is the reason they follow. If the god is angered he will destroy everything. So we fight against his enemies, or sacrifice our young to it, or make war on those weaker than ourselves, or we spread plague and destrution so we are not victim of it. If you saw the recent Clash of the Titans movie. There is a raving prophet of doom who calls people to worship Hades so they are not destroyed by him.
3- The Bargain- The bargain for power. wealth, victory, ect. In the ancient Near East there was a god called Molech. Idols to Molech were hollow bronze ovens. Children were placed into Molech's arms for sacrifice. The idea was that Molech who was a god of war. Would honor your sacrifice and grant you victory in battle. It was often common practice for kings to sacrifice some of their children in this way. It was political theater. The king sacrificed his son to Molech we can send our sons to war.
Desperation is a big one. When you're at death's door and you want vengeance on the one who gravely wounded you, theres not many options that don't involve making crazy evil pacts for unlife. If you were a great warrior maybe Gorum would grant you your wish as a construct...maybe.
Desperation is a big one. When you're at death's door and you want vengeance on the one who gravely wounded you, theres not many options that don't involve making crazy evil pacts for unlife. If you were a great warrior maybe Gorum would grant you your wish as a construct...maybe.
If I was a really great warrior he'd take a ticket and get in line. I've got an interview with 3 other divine candidates before him. Pazuzu's offer is sounding really good right now too! He even said I could get some bonus things while I'm alive again. Wasn't too interested in Saranrae's offer at redemption, but that Torag guy has a pretty good sounding philosophy, who knew I had dwarf blood in me(no wonder I'm such a good drinker! Hope Gorum's got a charisma score as big as his sword, because that's the only way he's getting a gig out of me.
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Why would someone worship and evil deity?
...Because good is dumb.
-Dark Helmet