Tiberius1701's page

Could it be that the materials and energies that are used in energy armor also can interfere with various magical effects? That would be one way to look at it. You're touching them yes, but your spell can't get through their energy resistance. And, there are simply no materials like that in a primitive setting.

I know the pawns are a good buy for the number, compared to minis. But I haven't gotten around to being ready to spend the money yet.

I have a big collection of pre-painted DnD minis and Star Wars minis. So, between those, I went through and took out all the iconic stuff that would be too distracting (no stormtroopers, vader, etc). Then I picked out minis that could pass for various Starfinder races and types and put them in bags like that.

The effect so far has been pretty decent. It's not the EXACT look, but it is in the ballpark enough.

By the way, the very few minis they let that other company make for Starfinder - are RIDICULOUSLY over-priced. No way I'm paying an average of 10 bucks/mini.

Thanks for the response! :)

I haven't run very many chase scenes, but I have done one or two. I am not aware of any big problems. Can you mention what problems you are seeing.

Here's a few:

Tiberius1701 wrote:

3) Failure to Keep Pace, results in not moving forward, but does not result in moving back.

I'm not sure I understand this. If everyone else in the chase moves forward and you don't, how is that different than everyone else stays in place and you move back?

p.284 says, "If a vechicle's pilot deliberately slowed down or she failed all the piloting checks attempted, her vehicle doesn't move forward. If a pilot attempted to keep pace and failed, her vehicle instead moves back one zone."

So it is better to not even try to keep pace than try and fail, because it will mean you (instead of actually remaining in place) move back one zone - a result not even intentionally slowing down get you. This is so out of wack that it must be a mistake.

Also, I don't remember anything in the chase rules about moving backwards if you don't successfully do an action that moves you forwards. It is just that everyone else moves forward and you don't.

Yeah that's how it normally works, except for that one wacko sentence.

I'm personally not a fan of the map speed concept. It is more stuff to track, and it interacts with a lot of things. Stuff will have to be recalculated constantly.

Fair enough :) - but your further question make me wonder if you are imagining it to be something worse than I mean...

Are you taking out the concept of zones? Or are those still there? How does the map speed interact with the zones? How do people escape the chase or get left behind?

No there are still zones, you do everything else the same. The only difference is that there is a piece of paper off to the side with the number "40" on it. If anyone does a 'speed up' you change it to "45". If they do a slow down, you change it to "35". That's it. There's nothing to calculate.

BUT, if the speed goes over 80 everyone will start taking Piloting penalties, and the stakes with damage get more and more. Further, you will actually be able to outrun other cars than can't go as fast as you eventually.

Part of the thrill of chases is that you are both playing chicken with one another - how fast are you willing to go, and can you keep from crashing if you can't be as daring as me? As the temperature (speed) ratchets up, things get more and more dangerous.

Anyone who has attempted to play the chase rules has run into some of its big problems. Here's what I'm thinking of using...

1) All characters roll initiative each round. On the Piloting phase, those pilots act in their proper order. Then on the combat phase, all the other characters are slotted in to their proper spaces in between.

2) The "Keep Pace" pilot action's DC is now 5 + vehicle's item level.

3) Failure to Keep Pace, results in not moving forward, but does not result in moving back.

4) All characters in vehicles in a chase, fire at other vehicles in a chase using the lower vehicle attack modifier. The Full Speed modifier is used only in grid combat against lower speed or stationary targets, or against other high speed vehicles when they are going in divergent directions. The Full Speed modifier is never used in chases, as their directions and speeds are more closely relative.

5) There will be kept an overall "map speed" in increments of 5 mph. Typical chases begin at 40 mph, but GM may alter.

6) Every time a pilot in the chase successfully conducts a Speed Up maneuver, the map speed is increased by 5 mph. Every time a Slow Down maneuver is conducted, the map speed is reduced by 5 mph.

7) No vehicle may take part in a Speed Up action if it would bring the map speed to greater than twice its overland movement. Example: The Exploration Buggy has an overland movement of 40mph. It may not perform a Speed Up action if it would bring the map speed to greater than 80 mph (exactly 80 is fine).

8) If the map speed ever drops to 15 mph, the GM may choose to transition back to grid combat.

9) Very high Map Speeds makes piloting more difficult. For every 5 mph over 80 the Map Speed reaches, all piloting and attack checks receive a -1 penalty. For example: 85 mpg -1, 90 mph -2, 95 mph -3, 100 mph -4, and so on. Any piloting roll that received such a penalty, and fails by 10 or more, results in the vehicle crashing. It automatically strikes (is hit by) a damaging hazard (Table 8-4, p.285) with a CR equal to the level of the vehicle, plus the penalty. In addition, the vehicle comes to a stop and is out of the chase.

10) Fall damage for a character falling to the ground off a vehicle is increased for high map speeds. Follow the rule given in "Boarding" page 285, but apply an additional 1d6 at 50 mph, plus another 1d6 for each 20 mph thereafter.

Input appreciated. Also, if you've found problems with the chase rules I'd be interested to know, thanks :)

If its such a big deal, why not just get rid of spell interruption entirely? That way, you could have triggered actions all day without breaking the game. You'd still have the time travel problem, potentially, but at least you wouldn't need to come up with elaborate exceptions.

That's basically what I'm proposing. Spells are not interrupted and prepared actions work as they always have (go off first).

The only caveat is, if the spell has a casting time longer than 1-action, it can be interrupted (most used in combat are 1-action). That's just because (a) the designers are obviously not meaning to protect those spells from interruption, and (b) it makes sense.

------
About your thing on 'time travel'. It's just basically saying, I've got the jump on you and my gun is aimed at you - now, if I see your hand start to go for your gun, or your foot for the door, etc - I am in an advantaged spot where it will be easy to shoot you first. That's pretty realistic and what "stickemup" has always been about in real life.

You can ready for movement through specific spaces (just like moving through specific spaces can trigger AoOs), but you can't ready for "he starts casting a spell but hasn't finished yet". Basically, movement is more granular than casting a spell. Casting a spell is one indivisible event, movement is a series of steps. Firing shot from a gun can't be interrupted, but you could have a ready action go off in between the first and second parts of a full attack because they're mechanical distinct sub-events.

But until Starfinder, prepared actions always happened first. So, "firing a shotgun" is a great example. "If he tries to fire his shotgun I will shoot." And you shot because you had the jump (initiative) on him and were already holding an action. That is the way it has always worked until Starfinder decided to complicate everything in order to do away with concentration rolls, but not have spellcasters be certainly interrupted.

Movement is an action. Firing a weapon is an action. Each has a series of steps, even if one doesn't involve moving a miniature.

What I'm proposing is traditional prepped action - and treating 1-action spells like 'attack with weapon'. Seems to work perfectly to achieve their aims of 1-action spells not being squashed.

I think I'm going to be playing with 5 zones instead of 3.

Also, I'm thinking of having a running "speed of the map" and every time someone does a 'speed up' maneuver, it goes up by 5. Every time someone does a 'slow down' it goes down by 5.

Then, you have a penalty to all piloting checks of -1 for every 10 mph over 60. (70=-1, 80=-2, 90=-3, 100=-4, and so on).

Also, if you are at your vehicle's top speed, you may not do a 'speed up' maneuver. So, the chase might start at 40mph, but if your top speed is 70mph and my top speed is 200mph, eventually you'll hit a ceiling and won't be able to get away (without doing tricks etc).

I would also alter the damage for those who fell onto the road, based on the map speed at the time.

And, side note: I will be changing 'keep pace' DC to 5+item level - otherwise it makes absolutely no sense to ever do.

Remember too that being in the same zone means you're somewhere within 50 ft. So, "being engaged" with someone could be narratively described in a number of ways, being next to, behind, or in front of. They just count as "right there" and not "behind" in the sense of "in a whole other zone 200 ft back behind".

If they weren't going full speed, it should have just been around -2 for most vehicles - not too bad.

If they were going full speed against low speed or stationary targets then it should be pretty hard. That's why drive by shooting are normally only tactically successful if they are a sneak attack against flat-footed, or used as an intimidation tactic (shooting up your house).

In chases though, one house rule I would use is say that if we are on a relative map, and all cars are moving at high speeds, they just get the lower penalty - they don't count as top speed relative to one another.

They do say, at least, that if your speed is 50 more than the other car, your DC to do a double piloting action is only -2 instead of -4.

But this can get weird if it's not just 1 to 1 vehicle. These chase rules seem really broken to me.

I'm thinking of having a running "speed of the map" and every time someone does a 'speed up' maneuver, it goes up by 5. Every time someone does a 'slow down' it goes down by 5.

Then, you have a penalty to all piloting checks of -1 for every 10 mph over 60. (70=-1, 80=-2, 90=-3, 100=-4, and so on).

Also, if you are at your vehicle's top speed, you may not do a 'speed up' maneuver. So, the chase might start at 40mph, but if your top speed is 70mph and my top speed is 200mph, eventually you'll hit a ceiling and won't be able to get away (without doing tricks etc).

I would also alter the damage for those who fell onto the road, based on the map speed at the time.

And, side note: I will be changing 'keep pace' DC to 5+item level - otherwise it makes absolutely no sense to ever do.

You might want to look at what the CRB already gives for spaceflight times and compare your results.

Thanks much! However, after looking these over it seems to me pretty consistent with what I've laid out...

Let's skip anything involving an atmosphere for now, since the portion in atmosphere should be considerably slower.

Reaching a moon takes 1-8 hours. By the numbers I've described, a ship of speed 6 (full power to 9) could go from high orbit to earth's moon in almost exactly 8 hours. And consider that the Kevolari Venture, a starting Tier 1 explorer, goes speed 6 - so players will later have faster ships (the rules given don't seem to take sublight speed into account). Also consider that many moons will be closer than earth's (especially given how large they like to present them in sci-fi).

Next, travel in-system is 3-8 days (1d6+2). By the numbers I've described, we would use the "Speed=AU/week" long-term travel formula. By that, going between Earth and Mars (at their average distance) would take almost exactly 3 days at Speed 6. This is the bottom of the range, which seems appropriate because Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars are all small rocky worlds of the inner system - very close together.

So these numbers fit pretty well. Increasing the size of hexes would lead to 10 or 50 miles would cut these numbers by 1/2 to 1/10, and that would seem to be much further off.

================
IMPORTANT NOTE:

I actually think the random rolls they give in the section you quoted should be used most of the time. I plan to use them to just get a number and move on with the game.

I'm not proposing that everything always be plotted out on a map in miles and all times and distances constantly be computed in mph. I think people should just play, and if your ship speed is 8, you move 8 hexes. If you need an ETA roll something simple, and move on.

BUT, if/when important issues or questions of timing or distance (rarely) come up, it's nice to have a real world measurement behind a "hex" and a "round" that would allow an on-the-fly reasonable calculation that would be consistent.

Hope others will give feedback too - it's ok to disagree :)
Thanks again!

Thanks! If it's a math error (or error in factual numbers like earth distances), please feel free to let me know. Or maybe you're talking about design choices of the turn/hex lengths? (in which case feel free to let me know that too lol)

For those so inclined, or in need, I've worked out what I think is a feasible time/distance scale for SF...

We know the CRB states that hexes in space do not refer to a definite distance, and even combat rounds do not refer to a definite time period. This has the advantage of not getting us bogged down into math and minutia in our game. But it has the disadvantage of not mixing well with certain situations that may come up in a roleplaying game.

For example, how long does it take to travel from a planet to its moon without Drift travel? Can my sensors reach a planet or its moon? At my spaceship's speed, how much stamina have we regained by the time we get to orbit? Should I put a station, asteroid, moon, or planet on a tactical space map and how many hexes big should it be? We have to rev up a Drift drive for 1 minute. How long is that in combat? There are all kinds of reasons we may want to nail down some times and distances.

That is why I've created a fallback option for those who might want to work something out. I've landed on a distance and time based on: fitting as much as possible with existing game references and indicators, what seems a natural fit to the d20 system, and what seems to work within the distances typical to earth orbits in real life, and the kinds of events we see in common science fiction.

The following assumes:
1) The starship combat round is equal to a tactical round: 6 seconds.
2) A hex is 5 miles.

===============

Rationale on Round time:
Page 322 CRB "Other Actions in Starship Combat" sidebar states that characters may take one move OR one standard action on their turn. This might seem to indicate a starship turn is 3 seconds. But they also allow a Minor Crew Action when doing this. Therefore, the best adjustment is to say these limitations are assuming your character is participating in the running of the ship, as follows:

- A tactical round takes place just before the phases of a starship round begin ("at the beginning of the round before the Engineering phase" as the rules say).
- In the tactical round, you may act as normal. But if you wish to "fill a starship crew role" in the coming starship round, you must not move, must be at the relevant station, and must spend a Full Round Action to "fill a starship crew role".
- If you do not spend a Full Round Action to fill a starship role, you have the option of spending a move action conduct a Minor Crew Action, assuming you do so while at the proper console.
- It is assumed the tactical and starship rounds are taking place simultaneously, such that only 6 seconds have passed in total. They are played sequentially for the sake of practicality.

Now, in practice, if nothing important is going on WITHIN the ship, one can play the starship battle exactly as stated in the CRB, even keeping to the rule in the sidebar, and everything will be consistent.

Rationale on Hex distance:
First, we know that hexes are meant to be very large. This is why multiple Colossal ships can fly through the same hex and still only take up one hex themselves (a Colossal ship, by the way, would be at least 2.8 miles long, comfortably still fitting into 5 miles. Even Absalom Station - probably one of the largest stations (if not THE largest) will just fit into the hex.

Second, a distance of 5 mile hexes, with a round of 6 seconds, computes out to sublight speeds we might expect in science fiction and orbital flight. And third, d20 tactical squares are 5 ft. Vehicle squares for faster combat has been suggested to use 50 ft. squares, and 5 mile hexes seems consistent, elegant, and easy to compute with.

Now, let's look at some consequences of this time/distance scale. Although Starfinder default is to round down, for all of these I am rounding to the nearest, which seems to make more sense given the large distances...

=================

TYPICAL SPACE DISTANCES
First, consider the general scale when we say we are "at a planet". Let's use earth, earth orbits, and its moon as an example, and assume it to be an average for rocky habitable worlds (like Castrovel, Verces, Triaxus, etc).

-The distance to space from ground (height of atmosphere) : 62 mi (12 hexes)

-Low orbit: 100-1240 miles (20-248 hexes)
The International Space Station (ISS) orbit is: 254 mi (51 hexes) up.

-Medium orbit: 1240-22,236 mi.
GPS satellites orbit at about: 16,500 miles.

-Geosynchronous orbit: 22,236 mi.
This orbit allows an object to hover directly over one spot on the planet.

-High (graveyard) orbit: greater than 22,236 mi.

-Distance from earth to moon: 238,900 miles.

These distances would mean that a planet should not be on your tactical map (unless you happen to have a planet marker 132 ACTUAL feet wide). For the moon you would only need a marker 36 ACTUAL feet wide.

Most real life observed asteroids are between 30 feet (a speck) and the largest we've seen is 330 miles (66 hexes!) across, so you have plenty of options there. Asteroids could:

- occupy a hex and present a hazard if flying through
- fully occupy a hex, meaning entry = collision
- take up multiple hexes as large as you like

=================

SHIP SPEEDS

Ship Speed x 3000 = miles per hour (mph)

However, consider the "Full Power" pilot action allows straight movement at 1.5 x speed. I take this to mean a ship's speed is 1.5 x listed if you have a pilot dutifully working the helm to get the most out of the ship throughout the voyage. I would also rule that taxing the engines like this over the long term could lead to damage.

The Kevolari Venture, Medium Explorer (p.311 CRB) has a Speed of 6 (18,000 mph).
Or, at full power: 9 (27,000 mph)

That would mean it could go from high orbit (say 240,000 miles) to atmo in about 8.5 hours. Most likely they would simply have Drift traveled directly into high, medium, or low orbit as they wanted to begin with.

For comparison:

-ISS speed: orbits at 4.76 mi/sec (speed 6)

-Speed to remain in low earth orbit (Space Shuttle): 17,500 mph (speed 6)

-Voyager space probe: 38,610 mph (Speed 13)

You might think, "These are primitive craft, SF ships should be much faster!" Well, they are. In real life there is no 'top speed' (except for light, which we aren't even close). So, it's a matter of continuous acceleration. These speeds are really more about what is practical for orbital mechanics and gravity. The main point is that it takes real life earth ships a LONG time to get up to those speeds, which are the fastest human-created objects in history. SF ships can get to these speeds in 6 seconds, and there are plenty of faster examples.

Long-Term Sublight Travel:

In any case, this is attempting not to worry about acceleration issues. These speeds work pretty well enough and are incredibly fast. This was a similar issue they faced in having top speeds for long-term trips in vehicles, but a more practical/usable speed in tactical combat that represents what you get with fits-and-starts and turns, etc.

We can similarly assume the speeds can get much higher over long-term, long-distance sublight travel - but this is generally a non-issue since one would just go into Drift travel for interplanetary distances. Still, if the issue comes up, one simple way would be to switch to an Astronomical Unit (AU) scale for long-term ship speeds.

By this reckoning, you could say something that approximates higher speeds over longer times would be: The Speed of the ship represents how many AU it covers per week.

Speed = AU/week.

The distance between any inner-system rocky worlds at any give time would be 1d6 AU (earth-mars averages 2.6 AU). It is typically around 50 AU to the orbit of the outermost planets.

By the way, 1/2 of lightspeed is over 335 MILLION mph, or a speed of: 111,846 hexes per round. So, no need to even think about this and still be anything like the sublight scenes we see in sci fi.

Atmospheric Speeds:
It should be assumed that once you hit atmosphere, the ship slows dramatically, due to friction. In other words, you don't get from orbit to the ground in 18 seconds.

There will need to be a different conversion of ship speed to Atmospheric speeds in mph, but I haven't worked out those factors yet. They should yield a time from orbit to landing that seems realistic and consistent with what appears likely on sci-fi and comparable to NASA figures. They should also be better than our real life fighters today.

================

SENSORS

Now to deal with the issues presented by sensor ranges.

FOCUSED VS BROAD SCANNING

The ranges in hexes given in the book (and all combat sensor actions) are for highly focused, rapid penetrating scans on small targets. Focused Scanning operates at shorter ranges and is commonly more useful in combat. Since average terrestrial planets have atmospheres 12 hexes (60 miles) deep, long range sensors can do focused scans of objects (landed ships, buildings, etc) on the surface from low orbit. Medium range sensors might be able to do a focused scan of high altitude areas, or on planets with unusually shallow atmospheres, where orbits can be lower. Otherwise, ships will have to go into atmosphere to get focused scans of individual objects on the surface.
-short: 5 hexes (25 miles)
-medium: 10 hexes (50 miles)
-long: 20 hexes (100 miles)

When set to Broad Scanning, sensors cover much wider and distant areas, and their operation works in terms of minutes rather than rounds (a scan action is one minute). This is what you use to scan a planet's overall conditions, the nature of nebula or other celestial bodies, and detect objects at a distance. Strange or highly detailed or difficult phenomena may take longer to scan fully.

In this mode sensors can tell whether widespread life is on the planet, and whether there are signs of massive technology or habitation. But it cannot get specific details on particular structures on a planet's surface, or detect the presence of specific landed ships. A survey would be needed, which consists of systematic scans of the surface, in low orbit, over a period of 2d6 hours, and then, it would only pick up the presence of a dense object of artificial alloys and power signatures common to ships. Once a location is known, Focused Scanning (as above) may then be able to get detailed information on the ship or structure using the standard combat Scientist Actions, assuming range can reach.

When it comes to ships in space, they are more noticeable when not on a planet. Broad sensors can only detect the presence of a "ship sized object" - it's size class, as well as its speed and direction - but not composition, type, ship or creature, etc. BUT, to detect ships at range is only possible if someone is standing guard at a sensors station - Computers DC (30-5 per size) to notice.

To find max ranges for sensors in Broad mode, the range rating in hexes should be multiplied by 5,000 to get miles:
- short: 25,000 miles
- medium: 50,000 miles
- long: 100,000 miles

Depending on sensor range and the speed of the object, those that are closing on your location will often grant you a few hours advance notice (distance in miles / speed in mph = time in hours). This, provided your sensor operator managed to detect them.

Picturing General Sensor Coverage:

So, consider a circular (spherical really) area with a radius from the planet, up to medium orbit (about 22,000 miles). Short range sensors cover about 1/4 of that area. There are plenty of places a ship could be in medium orbit with you and not be in range. Medium range sensors can cover about half of that area. And long range sensors cover all of the area and beyond. If a ship is anywhere in medium or lower orbit, or some places in far orbit, it will be within range of a long range sensor (though ships within range could always be blocked by LOS from the planet). This could present interesting situations where one ship with long range sensors can see another ship in planetary orbit, but that ship is unaware due to its medium or short range sensors.

As for moons, they can vary widely in their distance to planets, but a typical moon of a terrestrial planet will be about 230,000 miles away. That will mean that to know if something is around a planet's moon, one will need to leave orbit and travel over into that direction, even with long range sensors. At sublight, that means it would take hours, so you may as well Drift travel to the moon, which should be very quick (1d6 minutes?). So, that basically means you should treat the moons of a planet as a separate location than "at the planet".

Oh! Having the sci ofc go after the pilot and shunt shields to the enemy's side is a great point! :)

Tiberius1701 wrote:

WHAT THEY SHOULD REALLY DO IS SAY THIS:

1) All prepped actions go off just before their trigger (as traditional).
2) If the trigger was a spell being cast and it has a cast time of 1 action, then it still goes off, but AFTER the prepped action (assuming the spellcaster hasn't been dropped). If the casting time is longer than 1 action, it is interrupted and fails.

At which point you have to add even further exceptions for Attacks of Opportunity (which explicitly do happen before the triggering action)...

I think you may have misread. #1 says ALL prepared actions go off just before their trigger. If AoO also happens before the trigger, then no exceptions are needed.

Besides that, an AoO is not a prepared action. It is a kind of Reaction. And Prepared actions are not Reaction...

REACTIONS
-Attacks of Opportunity
-various special abilities

OTHER ACTIONS
-Delay
-Ready an Action
...etc.

This is not about a 'fringe' case. It is about the everyday, very common and central function of prepared actions (to stop someone if they try to do something you're watching for). What I've proposed is the simplest and most elegant way to keep prepped actions relevant and functional, while also allowing 1-action spells not to have a disadvantage in getting canceled.

Thanks much. I really do suspect what they were trying to do is:

- Get rid of cumbersome concentration rolls
- But then spellcasters get spells ruined too easily
- So to fix it we'll make this distinction between offensive/defensive prepared actions.

But I don't think they've realized yet that this breaks the entire purpose of prepared actions: watch for something and do x if they try to make a move (a privilege I've earned by winning initiative).

Like you said, you can have an overt "drop it or else" situation. Or, you could be watching from a distance, waiting for someone to run between two pillars and shoot them when they go for it.

See - that was another important function of the prepared action: to get around the weird quantized nature of turn-based combat. Otherwise, I can run between two pillars on my turn, exposing myself and yet you can't shoot me as I pass because 'it's not your turn'.

I don't think they knew how profound altering prepared actions was. The solution I'm presenting here accomplishes their aim to let spellcasters get off their 1-action spells and still maintains the integrity of prepped actions.

It also makes a spellcaster think, well I better be quick on the draw and have incentive to add to initiative just like anyone else.

Here's what I'm thinking of implementing in my game:

1) ALL prepped actions go off just before their trigger (as they traditionally have before PF).
2) If the trigger was a spell being cast and it has a cast time of 1 action, then it still goes off, but AFTER the prepped action (assuming the caster is not dropped). If the casting time is longer than 1 action, it is interrupted and fails.

Now THAT would put 1-action spells in the same boat with guns without ruining prepped actions. Spellcasters would not be interrupted constantly, but the function of prepped actions is preserved. Like a gunman I'm holding a prepped action on, telling him to 'drop it', he can still shoot (or cast) but only if he survives my prepped action first.

What do you think?

What he's saying is that if you say you can't shoot a spellcaster before their spell with a readied action, then you should say also that you can't shut the door before the person shoots with a readied action.

Consistent:
A1) I set trigger as spell being cast. He casts, then I shoot.
B1) I set trigger as being shot at. He shoots me, then I close door.

OR
A2) I set trigger as spell being cast. He declares, I shoot first.
B2) I set trigger to being shot at. He declares, I close door first.

But having A1 with B2 is weird.

I'm seeing what Nerdy Canuck is saying about the spell failure though. Even though it doesn't make sense (and it definitely doesn't), perhaps they sacrificed that to keep spellcasters in the game more, without cumbersome concentration rolls when they were shot.

After all, even if I get my shot off before a guy shooting at me because I had a prepared action - he still gets to shoot after that assuming he's alive. The spellcaster doesn't. But unfortunately, they've now taken away the ability to shoot a guy you have a gun on before he can shoot you, even though you won initiative and prepped an action (*sigh*).

But the thing is, I really don't see people preparing actions that often in combat. Usually time is too precious and they'd rather just shoot someone now. So I'm not convinced it would ruin spellcasting. Don't forget they now give cover bonuses if he's got buddies between you and him.

WHAT THEY SHOULD REALLY DO IS SAY THIS:
1) All prepped actions go off just before their trigger (as traditional).
2) If the trigger was a spell being cast and it has a cast time of 1 action, then it still goes off, but AFTER the prepped action (assuming the spellcaster hasn't been dropped). If the casting time is longer than 1 action, it is interrupted and fails.

Now THAT would put 1-action spells in the same boat with guns without ruining prepped actions. Like a guy I'm holding a prepped action on, telling him to 'put his hands up', he can still shoot/cast but only if he survives my prepped action.

I think the errata now is "Just put the pool of shield points however you want".

At least that's how I GM it anyway.

You're thinking of the Engineer's DIVERT action. That's the one they addressed in the FAQ. They did not address the Scientist's Balance action (other than to change it's DC formula).

One could change the ship system name from "sensors" to "computer" and it would all work fine. It seems like they are trying to have each system correlate to affecting each role.

BUT...

Then you have the Power Core/Engineer, which gives *exceptions* because they recognized that patching and hold it together shouldn't reasonably be affected by core damage.

SO...

I surmised that changing a whole system name could have much more fundamental repercussions because all of their game design philosophy is going to be based on that thing being called "sensors". Therefore I figured the path of least harm, would be to follow the Engineer example, and say "Condition applies to all science officer actions except Balance".

I thought about an exception for Improved Countermeasures, but will opt to err on the side of caution and make the least changes possible. We'll say that the particle emitters of the active scanners are also what's being used to send out scrambling interference.

I've searched the FAQ to no avail. Is this correct?

The CRB p.325 says under "Target System" to "attempt a Computers check, applying any modifiers from the starship's sensors"

BUT

The "Lock On" action says only "attempt a Computers check."

It seems odd that good sensors would not help with locking on.

(Incidentally, "Improve Countermeasures" also does not say to add the Sensors modifier, but that is a little more imaginable).

@kevsurp

both those abilities require the same DC computers check to succeed...

That doesn't seem to be correct. Target System roll is:

Computers + Sensor Bonus vs DC 5 + 1.5 x Tier

And Lock On roll is:

Computers vs DC 5 + 1.5 x Tier

The DC is the same, but Lock On does NOT say to add your ship's Sensors bonus.

I wonder if this is an error.

I kind of doubt Gary's interpretation is what they actually meant, but for the life of me the paragraph is so poorly written that I can't even guess what they were going for. I can think of at least three possibilities that seem reasonable, Gary's among them.

I can't believe I'm not finding this anywhere else, and that it hasn't been addressed in the FAQ.

Even considering spell casters in a world of guns, I still don't get it. Reason: (1) Before, you still had plenty of archers and other ranged and thrown weapons. (2) They could still miss, and (3) Readying players would have to give up their chance to act on their initiative and wait for a narrow trigger - that's a cost. And, they would have to win initiative over the spellcaster. How is that any more limiting to the spell caster than it is to another person with a gun? Are guns less useful because someone who beats you in initiative can shoot you first?

It seems to me the entire point of the readied action was to simulate those moments when you get the jump on someone and can say 'hold it right there' with a gun on them, and if they move you fire. Otherwise, how would that be done, and why ever hold someone at gunpoint if they can just then shoot you first?

Having a readied action have to go after the trigger is complete is so incredibly broken that I think it must be a mistake - or even if the designer doesn't say it's a mistake - it's a mistake in judgment; that they will probably end up changing someday.

That's why I choose to say that holding your gun on someone and shooting them because they are about to do something *is* a defensive act.

the MOST needed thing in my opinion is actual guidelines that work for upgrading ships. Right now while the ship building rules are functional they become immediately broken the moment a group of players upgrade their ship making all NPC ships (at least in printed dentures) superfluous. Beyond that expanded ship rolls and combat actions.

I don't understand what the problem is. Your Tier goes up, you have more BP. You swap out whatever stuff you want, up to the new BP limit. Then, in game, you build some refit-time into the storyline (like you do for training time between character levels). What's the issue?

Tiberius1701 wrote:

I want plenty of civilian ships like cargo haulers, mining ships, research ships, cruise ships, repair tugs, etc. I also want internal maps with them all. And some additional component options.

You would need to expand the starship rules for that as currently civilian ships would be no match for the PCs autoleveling starship (and also wouldn't stay civilian for long if the get their hands on one) and there is no non combat use for starships.

So in the end you are, at best, left with some deck plans to use during adventuring and thats not what most people who buy a starship book are looking for.

The point isn't for them to be a 'match' for anything, and not to be for PCs to use. Being in a complete world means you're going to need civilian ships for cases like escort or protection missions, random encounters (if the players want to be pirates), finding them adrift (deck plans), and more. The whole world isn't just one big battle arena.

Ah thanks. That would have meant a Resolve was needed to do all stunts.

I want plenty of civilian ships like cargo haulers, mining ships, research ships, cruise ships, repair tugs, etc. I also want internal maps with them all. And some additional component options.

Does "push" always mean you have to spend a Resolve?

I have counted this up several ways, and even done a spreadsheet layout - it looks like the Pegasus class explorer, Tier 2, on p.5, is incorrect.

It seems it requires 1 more build point than should be possible for a Tier 2 ship (requires 76 build points - Tier 2 allows only 75)...

Explorer Base Frame (12 BP)
Pulse Green Power Core (15 BP)
M10 Thrusters (5 BP)
Armor mk 2 (6 BP)
Mk 1 duonode computer (2 BP)
Good Quarters (2 BP)
Mk 2 defenses (3 BP)
Basic Signal Drift Engines (6 BP)
Expansion Bay - cargo hold (0 BP)
Expansion Bay - escape pods (1 BP)
Expansion Bay - science lab (1 BP)
Expansion Bay - tech workshop (1 BP)
Basic medium range sensors (5 BP)
Basic Shields 40 (5 BP)
FWD - light laser cannon (2 BP)
PORT - light laser cannon (2 BP)
STBD - light laser cannon (2 BP)
TURRET - coil gun (6 BP)

TOTAL: 76

Sorry if this is a known thing. I did a search for Pegasus error faq bp etc but couldn't find any mention of this. Thanks.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about what they do.

Agreed I'm talking about veering from what's in the book, but I'm wondering now...

What is the point of a readied action?

Why should I bother restricting myself to a particular trigger when I can just act now. OR, if I want it to happen after the trigger (what you're saying the rules say), then why not just wait and go on my next turn? That would still be after their action and before their next.

Got it - thanks! :)

Thanks everyone :)

Oh I see. Thanks much :)

That's true mechanically, but there is also simply pulling the narrative into some unbelievable and ridiculous direction.

If, by headphones, the original poster is referring to some Starlord wannabe who is always playing loud music in his hears, then I would agree with Lethallin and make them Deafened.

If the player is so attached to goofy comedy, let's see how comedic it will be when he's stabbed in the back without warning because he was idiotically listening to music in a dangerous situation. Then he'll get the comedy he's looking for - that will be a hoot :)

Open mics on comms for party coordination should be fine. In fact, that's why they commonly say, 'cut the chatter' when attention is needed.

Say, for example, taking the CR3 Draelik in the book to an NPC CR10 Operative Draelik?

I'm at a loss to know how this is supposed to be done, thanks :)

I have. I thought at first they would follow a top to bottom order in the order mentioned, but that doesn't make sense.

At first you might think Downlow would be the lowest, but they said Downlow is the largest and safest of the Spike districts. If you look at the picture of the station, the cone-like spike is thickest at the top. Plus it makes sense that the safest area would be the closest to the Ring and other more civilized area.

So, I put Downlow just below the Ring, at the top of the Spike.

I put Sparks next because it seemed likely from the description to be up high, as you seemed to indicate.

And then I put Botscrap at the very bottom because it seems so refuse-like, and I put Conduit between (above Botscrap but below Sparks). After all, if there are conduits, there have to be reasons for them to exist - they need to go FROM something TO something else.

DOWNLOW
SPARKS
CONDUIT
BOTSCRAP

But I would also keep these areas GENERAL and not necessarily go all the way across. That will leave undefined areas for you to make up random little neighborhoods as yet to be mentioned.

Page 248 Core book says that Full Attacks allow specifically 2 attacks.

Page 46 specifically says Kasatha's extra arms do not increase the number of attacks they can make.

If all of that is true. Why, on page 160, did they change the name of the Two-handed Fighting to "Multi-Weapon Fighting" and then say, "You know how to fight with *several* lighter weapons..." and "When you make a full attack with two *or more* small arms..."

What is with the "or more" and "multi" wording on this feat?

Is this a relic left over from an earlier point in their writing process when they may have been thinking otherwise, and they forgot to correct the language? Or is there some other kind of way to get extra attacks that I'm unaware of? (for PCs - I know about Multiattack for monsters).

Thanks

Yeah I can believe that Damanta. It could be all about whether the spell takes an action or a round. Seems like maybe they wanted some spells to go off no matter what.

But when it comes to anything else, like a person shooting, pulling a lever, etc. I would still have the readied action go off before the attempted event. That is the *entire* point of readied actions - to try to *prevent* x.

Where on that page does it say this. I did a Find for "spell" and looked through them but couldn't find. Also looked for those page numbers and nothing.

Owen's posts said this:
"reactions resolve directly after the triggering action."

But it is not clear that a Readied Action is the same as a Reaction, or as an Attack of Opportunity. In fact, there are many reasons to think it specifically is not the same.

On pages 248-249, look at the structure of the headings. REACTIONS is a top level typeface. Under that, Attack of Opportunity is a smaller heading, meaning it should be a kind of Reaction.

Then, it moves on to another section, with the heading OTHER ACTIONS and this typeface is on the same level as the previous section (REACTIONS). That should mean we are moving on now to another kind of thing than Reactions. "Ready an Action" is a smaller heading, under OTHER ACTIONS.

And that's not the only reason...

If you look at the two paragraphs under "Ready an Action" they never refer to it as a reaction. They called it a "readied action". At a glance you will see the phrase "reaction" in the first paragraph, but that is specifically to call out what you do when you use a reaction while ALSO having a readied action...

"If you used a reaction on your previous turn and then chose to ready an action (something else than a reaction), you still regain your reaction at the beginning of your original turn, not when you take your readied action (again - another thing than the reaction).
p/249 (parentheticals mine)

Therefore:

It is true that p.249 says readied actions like shooting take place immediately after their trigger. But it also says otherwise on another page. The question is whether Owen's post addressed this discrepancy.

He made a comment about reactions, but he did not seem to comment about readied actions.

His response to LordInsane was not about this discrepancy at all. It was about reactions and attacks of opportunity. He, like page 249, does mention 'readied to shoot you' but I think he's conflating readied actions with reactions and it seems like that was not the intent. He might have been mistaken in what he meant to say. He even conflates a readied action with an attack of opportunity, which is definitely mistaken. That makes me think he must have not been thinking about it before typing that. Owen's sentence:

"if you cast a spell and someone **readied** to shoot you if you cast, if the spell has a casting time of 1 standard action you get the spell off before the **AoO** gets made" (emphasis mine)

Makes no sense because he switches from talking about readied actions to AoO. I think maybe he just forgot the particulars of his own rules here and was not specifically meaning to establish a new ERRATA.

Unfortunately, Owen himself doesn't post in the long argument you had on that other link. It's just you saying the same thing as you've said here. I don't know if that other fellow pointed out the structural arrangement of topics in the book though.

But page 254 also says of cover bonuses, "Note that spread effects can extend around corners and negate these bonuses."

That would seem to me like possibly smoke grenades might qualify and go around corners, but shrapnel, blasts, etc would not. They don't seem to specify formally which grenade types have spread effects.

Anyone know?

Page 331 is what I go by. I think page 249 might be the error. Reason is that prepared actions make no sense unless they happen *before* the trigger. The whole point of them is to act like when you get the drop on someone and you're saying "hold it right there" with a gun pointed at them. If you can't shoot before they do something, then you haven't got them at gunpoint. That option is the reward for winning initiative.

Otherwise *anyone* can prepare an action - it's called losing initiative and going after lol. :)

"You are most at risk of taking damage while casting when a spell’s casting time is 1 round or longer, you have provoked an attack of opportunity, **or a foe readied an action to attack you when you began to cast**."

I always say, the main thing is it's storytelling. Just imagine you are your character and you're in that situation, and describe what you want to do. The GM will tell you what mechanics that equates to and what to roll.

Over time, you can help him/her more as you become familiar with your own powers and how they work. Just focus on what you can do at your level and don't try to take it all in at once :)

Have fun!

Thanks Hammerjack!

I had done searches before posting and didn't see anything on this, but since I also found this thread:

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ut9f?Androids-and-Raise-Dead

Which seems to be consistent with the FAQ too.

Thanks much :)

The spell "Raise Dead" specifically says that it cannot be used on Constructs.

The Android description says that it counts as both Humanoid and Construct, AND if either could apply - you are to use the one that has the *worst* result.

That would seem to mean that Raise Dead cannot be used on Androids.

POSSIBLE RESPONSES:

1) Yep. You die, you die - too bad. That's just how it is playing an android.
[But there seems to be no super-cool offset to balance this.]

2) The 'worst result' rule wasn't intended to be used in this case. Raise Dead works on androids because they are a creature and the spell targets creatures.
[But, I can find no basis to assume it wasn't intended this way.]

3) Home rule a separate spell that is "Raise Android". Works the same but must be known and prepared separately.
[Possible but seems bland and pointless]

4) Androids can't be raised, but they CAN be *backed up*. They can go to computer storage vaults and have their minds backed up. Backup services costs are about the same as paying for a Raise Dead spell to be cast (for game balance). If you die, your body can be repaired and your backup downloaded back into it by returning it to the vault. This is ALMOST like raising, except the character is whatever level they were when the backup happened. And, they only know what they knew up to that time (the other PCs can bring them up to speed in most cases). Relationships may be a little different, which could have some cool roleplaying possibilities.
[I'm leaning this way, but want to hear other responses thanks!]

blahpers wrote:

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Alternatively, to *not be a dick* don't have the diamond vanish. The spell simply fails to work. Let the caster figure their own things out.

Following the rules is "being a dick"? It isn't like we're talking about a fine print technicality thing--you cast the spell, you use up the material components whether it works or not, same as if you tried to wish someone to be hit by dominate person and they made their saving throw.

In some peoples view, yes. Same as with using sunder to destroy PC equipment (also somewhat when PCs use sunder against enemies, reducing loot) or taking the wizards spellbook. Technically, it is all allowed, but considered a bad move on the part of the DM. I don't have a problem with it, but others do.

How about this rule?...

In other words, if a spell cannot possibly succeed, it simply doesn't and no component is used. There has to be a roll that actually failed to succeed in order to use up the component. The 'chance to succeed' is what the component is being used for.

Starfinder has a lot of unanswered questions. The cause of the gap, the fate of Golarion, and (especially) the *many* numerous lesser mysteries about races and ruins throughout the Pact Worlds.

It is clear the authors intend these to be imagination-inducing kickoffs for GMs to build adventures around and have players discover these answers.

BUT...

It is also the case, that we know Paizo will be releasing adventures and other materials that may provide eventual answers to these. So what do we do?

It seems like we are going to unavoidably have our individual games end up in alternate canons, and may not be able to use some materials that come out.

For that reason, it kind of makes me want to build storylines about completely different worlds and mysteries and leave the mysteries in the books alone entirely. But that seems like I'm missing out on a lot of good opportunities.

How do you handle this and how does Paizo say we should handle this?

Thanks :)

That's a great point about Venture-Captains, and about their probable levels (this is why we have a community!) thanks.

I think I would prefer more levels so maybe I will move Venture-Captain to a position as you suggest (one a PC wouldn't take because they want to be an adventurer and not work a desk job). Then I'll scale down the levels on the other ranks. Maybe something like this:

RANKS:
- recruit (1)
- Scout (1-3)
- Itinerant (4-5)
- Wayfarer (6-7)
- Explorer 2nd Class (8-9)
- Explorer 1st Class (10-11)
- Chief Explorer (12-14)
- Senior Explorer (15+)

POSITIONS:
- Field Agent (Scout to Senior Explorer)
- Venture-Captain (Chief/Senior Explorers)
- Faction Leader (Chief/Senior Explorers)
- Forum Leader (Senior Explorer)
- First Seeker (Senior Explorer)

They mention in the book that it is different in structure in many ways from the SF Society of pre-gap. They also mention "rising through the ranks" but they don't really give enough divisions to make that possible.

So, I know it's not a strict military org, but for my game I have kind of 'badges of recognition' you get from the SF community that give you effective titles as follows. Note that I'm distinguishing between rank and position/assignments here to maintain the terms already mentioned in canon...

RANKS (Typical Level):

recruit (1)
Not an actual rank. Has been officially recruited but not yet fully trained and certified for missions.

Scout (1-3)
On your own, expected to prove yourself.

Itinerant (4-6)
Some respect. May stay in dormitories at SF facilities.

Wayfarer (7-9)
Expected to help lower level Starfinders, sometimes mentor. May reserve/use Skyreach Gala Hall and attend Forum meetings in Hall of Discovery as non-participant.

Explorer, 2nd Class (10-12)
Can tell lower ranks what to do within reason. Limited access to Archives and Data Vaults.

Explorer, 1st Class (13-15)
Upper level Access to Archives and Data Vaults.

Chief Explorer (16-18)
Considered the person in charge in the field. Full access to Archives and Data Vaults, as well as Communion Vaults. Expected to take part in planning missions at SF complexes between missions.

Venture-Captain (19+) [NPC only]
Gives out missions to all field agents. Not a field agent anymore but tend to the various Society Lodges. Full access to all areas of SF complexes. Permanent quarters at a SF complex.

=========================================
POSITIONS (These overlap rank)

Field Agent
Takes on missions in the field. Ranks from Scout to Chief Explorer.

Faction Leader
Leads a faction. May be any rank but typically is a Chief Explorer or higher.

Forum Member
Member of the Forum governing body, elected by all Starfinders. May be any other rank or position, but typically a Venture-Captain.

First Seeker
Leader of the Pathfinder Society, elected by the Forum. Takes on a grand mission.

I haven't decided if they will raise in rank automatically with level, but it would be kind of cool if they only generally did this, but not perfectly predictable. That way there would be variation among the PCs. So, perhaps when they go up in level they roll a d20 and add their level and there are DCs for each rank?

Your thoughts appreciated :)