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Spell is cast then Nothing. Nothing would happen. Soul would not return (because it can’t).
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Target dead creature touched
So, what dead creature is your cleric touching?
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Same thing that happens if the person really is dead but doesn't want to come back---nothing. (Well, the diamond vanishes.)
The caster has no way of telling what the failure mode was: unwilling subject, nonexistent subject, subject's soul is trapped somewhere, subject died of old age, subject... something the caster hasn't thought of. Be sure to point that out.
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It's unclear what happens when you try to revive a living individual via true resurrection. By that I mean, it definitely wont recreate the individual in front of the caster, but it's unknown if you receive any information about why the spell failed.
Of course, a particularly smart player would probably cast commune or other divination spells and learn that the individual isn't dead. And as a GM you don't really have good ways to stop the PCs from knowing the other PC is alive, unless that PC wanted to take steps to hide that they were alive (from their friends).
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Alternatively, to *not be a dick* don't have the diamond vanish. The spell simply fails to work. Let the caster figure their own things out.
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What happens is the (responsible) cleric casts augury first to ask his deity if he should spend the resources on resurrection. His deity tells him not to.
If the cleric doesn't bother checking, he loses his investment, and doesn't know why. Maybe the target is still alive, maybe the target is unwilling, maybe the target is currently a functional undead, maybe the target's soul is trapped in a container and not free to return.
Don't know. Don't care. But thanks for the 10,000gp of diamond dust. Gone.
Maybe the cleric learns from his mistakes and tries commune next to start asking some yes/no questions as to why he's suddenly poorer. THAT is where your secret will be revealed.
Or, the caster might have a sense of whether the spell failure was due to the target not wanting to come back, not able to come back or actually still amongst the living. Perhaps require a high-DC spellcraft check to determine specifics.
"I feel a tremor in the Force!"
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That cleric really should prepare and cast Commune and/or other useful divination spells to forestall that possibility. He should already be aware of the possibility that the person is dead and does not want to come back to life.
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Alternatively, to *not be a dick* don't have the diamond vanish. The spell simply fails to work. Let the caster figure their own things out.
Following the rules is "being a dick"? It isn't like we're talking about a fine print technicality thing--you cast the spell, you use up the material components whether it works or not, same as if you tried to wish someone to be hit by dominate person and they made their saving throw.
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Following the rules is "being a dick"? It isn't like we're talking about a fine print technicality thing--you cast the spell, you use up the material components whether it works or not, same as if you tried to wish someone to be hit by dominate person and they made their saving throw.
Alternatively, to *not be a dick* don't have the diamond vanish. The spell simply fails to work. Let the caster figure their own things out.
In some peoples view, yes. Same as with using sunder to destroy PC equipment (also somewhat when PCs use sunder against enemies, reducing loot) or taking the wizards spellbook. Technically, it is all allowed, but considered a bad move on the part of the DM. I don't have a problem with it, but others do.
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In some peoples view, yes. Same as with using sunder to destroy PC equipment (also somewhat when PCs use sunder against enemies, reducing loot) or taking the wizards spellbook. Technically, it is all allowed, but considered a bad move on the part of the DM. I don't have a problem with it, but others do.Following the rules is "being a dick"? It isn't like we're talking about a fine print technicality thing--you cast the spell, you use up the material components whether it works or not, same as if you tried to wish someone to be hit by dominate person and they made their saving throw.
Alternatively, to *not be a dick* don't have the diamond vanish. The spell simply fails to work. Let the caster figure their own things out.
Well, they can play their house rules, and I can play mine. In all of those cases, I'm running written. : )
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In some peoples view, yes. Same as with using sunder to destroy PC equipment (also somewhat when PCs use sunder against enemies, reducing loot) or taking the wizards spellbook. Technically, it is all allowed, but considered a bad move on the part of the DM. I don't have a problem with it, but others do.
Following the rules is "being a dick"? It isn't like we're talking about a fine print technicality thing--you cast the spell, you use up the material components whether it works or not, same as if you tried to wish someone to be hit by dominate person and they made their saving throw.
I think those are, ultimately, two different things. Imposing the penalty for taking an action but failing with it (the material component disappearing for a failed spell) isn't the same as choosing to take an action that has procedures used to adjudicate it in the rules but, in some circumstances, may be a dickish thing to do.
If the wizard was stupid enough to leave his spellbook on the nightstand in a shady inn, well, that's one way to learn a lesson.
Sundering is a sound tactical choice, especially against heavily armored foes. You can't sell the loot if you're dead. Besides, the WBL guidelines ought to assuage upset PCs--their "lost" loot eventually makes its way back if the GM is following said guidelines. If the players want to be mad at someone, be mad at the NPCs, not the GM. They broke your stuff? Make 'em pay for it.
Have a little faith. The GM isn't (or shouldn't be) out to get the players. Bad stuff will happen to the PCs, but ultimately, with a lot of work and a modicum of luck, the PCs are supposed to win.
Outside of an organized play setting, I'd give the first attempt a 'pass'.
If characters *persisted* in trying to 'brute force' the thing after they've been given the hint it's not going to work?
That's when the penalty can be applied.
Not "Oh, hey, ROFLMAO, sucks to be you, spending all that for nothing, dummy" on the first go. Any *sharp* spellcaster will want to research WHY such powerful magic wouldn't work *first* before giving it a second go.
Blah: It's hard to have faith in GMs outside of organized play, having seen no small share of punitive ones.
You can probably give some hints to prevent them from wasteing the material component if you want. They obviously don't have a body, so they will have to 'unambiguously identify' the target, which it says is usually either time and place of birth or death.
I certainly can see that it is likely that the other PCs often wouldn't know the time and place of birth of a fellow PC. Among my friends most know my birthday of course, but not the time and I don't think many know the place, since it doesn't often come up. Adventurers would often know the time and place of death though, since they would frequently be witnesses, so I expect that method is often used. In this case, since obviously the didn't see him die, they will have to figure that out, and if they can't do so, they would know they couldn't successfully cast the spell.
If they think they saw him die, but he didn't (an illusion or something) then this method won't work, but it seems like a good place to start to me.
One thing is though, I wouldn't hold on to the 'cool reveal' too tightly. Their are numerous ways that PCs can find out if someone is actually alive or dead, and if they succeed at one of those it is probably better to let them know that then to try and artificially keep the plan that they don't find out until it is dramatically appropriate.
Outside of an organized play setting, I'd give the first attempt a 'pass'.If characters *persisted* in trying to 'brute force' the thing after they've been given the hint it's not going to work?
That's when the penalty can be applied.
Not "Oh, hey, ROFLMAO, sucks to be you, spending all that for nothing, dummy" on the first go. Any *sharp* spellcaster will want to research WHY such powerful magic wouldn't work *first* before giving it a second go.
Blah: It's hard to have faith in GMs outside of organized play, having seen no small share of punitive ones.
If you don't have faith in your GM--and vice versa--you're going to have much bigger problems than spent material components. The game assumes that everybody is there to help each other have a good time, which requires a certain level of trust between the participants. If your GM/player/combination thereof doesn't by-and-large* meet that standard, the game probably isn't going to work. Punitive GMs tend to have short bouts of fun followed by long periods of not being able to find enough suckers players to run a game. I consider that a self-correcting problem. It does stink for players who don't have much of a pool of potential GMs to choose from, though.
As a GM, I usually remind the player of how an expensive spell works the first time they try it/declare intent at the table just to make sure they understand the rules--their character knows how the spell works, after all. I won't be held responsible after that, though. They'll get their diamond's worth back eventually. : )
*Hey, we all screw up sometimes...
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Alternatively, to *not be a dick* don't have the diamond vanish. The spell simply fails to work. Let the caster figure their own things out.
Since this thread went this way, here's my commentary, and I think it makes it pretty clear I don't think vanishing the material component is dickish...
What happens is the (responsible) cleric casts augury first to ask his deity if he should spend the resources on resurrection. His deity tells him not to.
If the cleric doesn't bother checking, he loses his investment, and doesn't know why. Maybe the target is still alive, maybe the target is unwilling, maybe the target is currently a functional undead, maybe the target's soul is trapped in a container and not free to return.
Don't know. Don't care. But thanks for the 10,000gp of diamond dust. Gone.
Maybe the cleric learns from his mistakes and tries commune next to start asking some yes/no questions as to why he's suddenly poorer. THAT is where your secret will be revealed.
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It isn't like we're talking about a fine print technicality thing--you cast the spell, you use up the material components whether it works or not,Can you cast a spell without a valid target though?
True Resurrection specifies as Raise Dead (with some differences), and Raise Dead specifies a "dead creature touched" as the target. True Resurrection stipulates the following differences:
This spell functions like raise dead, except that you can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level. This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased's time and place of birth or death is the most common method).To me that seems like we don't have a valid target.
I would probably have the spell fail without consuming components, explaining that this seemed different to a fizzle or other failure with no manifestations or energies appearing at all. Then allow a Spellcraft check to see if the character realizes they have no valid target.
I do think it's probably also a reasonable ruling to expend the components though.
To the original issue, could you spring the surprise earlier, or prevent aquisition of the diamond until after you're ready?
Basically, yes you can cast a spell without a valid target.
Spell Failure
If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted.
Spells also fail if your concentration is broken and might fail if you're wearing armor while casting a spell with somatic components.
If you always had to have a valid target (or otherwise had to have valid conditions) that line wouldn't be necessary. It is always possible to cast a spell, whether or not the conditions are valid for the spell.
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In desperate times, you could even cast Charm Monster on a door. But unless the door is a mimic, it's not going to do much.
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I would let him cast it, but it cant work by the rules. If you want to be nice you can find a way to replace the diamond.
How is he keeping characters alive who are supposed to die? I ask because the creature can choose to come back to life or stay dead. So no matter if it is a PC or NPC they can just choose to not come back.
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Instead of creating a new thread and seeing this is more or less related I'm going to steal this for a second:
In case of reincarnation, what happens with favored class race bonuses?
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In case of reincarnation, what happens with favored class race bonuses?
It's not specified as such. But the strong implication is that only ability scores are modified:
A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body.
IMHO, the PC would retain any favored class bonuses (and any other race-based ability) up to the moment of death and reincarnation. He would be ineligible for those same favored class bonuses from that point on.
Also:
The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn’t automatically speak the language of the new form.
Note that there is no mention of losing anything from your old race, aside from the physical ability score modifiers.
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Ok. Also I didn't ask this but I assumed it, that if you have racial/stat requirements from classes/feats/traits you can't use them but you still "have" them (as in you don't gain a new feat to replace the one you can't use anymore), right?
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On the subject of info without divination, I agree wholeheartedly the component for a failed casting of TruRez is lost, and no reason why the TruRez didn't work is gleaned. There are so many reasons the spell could have failed - some creatures have True Death ability and only a wish or miracle can restore the fallen, perhaps the soul was caught in some kind of storage device, maybe the target walks as an undead (unable to be raised until the undead form is slain), maybe they don't want to come back. My players have learned a while ago to cast an augury and if it comes back fuzzy, a commune, before wasting high cost spell power on bringing back the dead (unless they saw it happen right in front of them).
Ok. Also I didn't ask this but I assumed it, that if you have racial/stat requirements from classes/feats/traits you can't use them but you still "have" them (as in you don't gain a new feat to replace the one you can't use anymore), right?Right.
Consider retraining. Or play a little reincarnation roulette.
This happened a couple of games ago, GM didn't (still doesn't) allow retraining, so retiring was probably the best choice, that or play something really suboptimal and die again or ask for more wealth per level to compensate the lost of stats.
To be honest I, as player, didn't want to reincarnate because this was probably going to happen, but in character imo it didn't make much sense that someone doesn't want to come back from the dead specially when he still has stuff to do in life.
Ok. Also I didn't ask this but I assumed it, that if you have racial/stat requirements from classes/feats/traits you can't use them but you still "have" them (as in you don't gain a new feat to replace the one you can't use anymore), right?Right.
Consider retraining. Or play a little reincarnation roulette.
In gruff Half-Orc Voice: "Is that right? Me NO-like...."
If you have Orc Weapon Familiarity and are reincarnated as a human you no longer are familiar with your weapon? I think you still have that knowledge and that skill, I cannot see anything in Reincarnate that calls for the loss of this training and memory.
I would automatically give a reincarnated PC the "adopted" trait if they had a racial trait as well. To keep in the spirit of reincarnation being the same person in a new form I would also keep racial proficiencies and feats selected by the PC that are not based solely on biology. Sure, you lose Dark Vision, Orc Ferocity and Orc Blood, but I have a hard time excluding feats you would have learned to improve your use of that Orc Double-Axe. You know the weapon in your new form!
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As I mentioned above, the spell doesn't say you lose anything, even darkvision, when you are reincarnated. The only thing you specifically lose are racial ability score modifiers.
I agree it's logical to lose biology-based racial abilities, but by the RAW, you only lose what the spell says you lose, no more.
In some peoples view, yes. Same as with using sunder to destroy PC equipment (also somewhat when PCs use sunder against enemies, reducing loot) or taking the wizards spellbook. Technically, it is all allowed, but considered a bad move on the part of the DM. I don't have a problem with it, but others do.Following the rules is "being a dick"? It isn't like we're talking about a fine print technicality thing--you cast the spell, you use up the material components whether it works or not, same as if you tried to wish someone to be hit by dominate person and they made their saving throw.
Alternatively, to *not be a dick* don't have the diamond vanish. The spell simply fails to work. Let the caster figure their own things out.
How about this rule?...
If the spell fails, the material component is used only if there was a possibility it could have been successful.In other words, if a spell cannot possibly succeed, it simply doesn't and no component is used. There has to be a roll that actually failed to succeed in order to use up the component. The 'chance to succeed' is what the component is being used for.
That's certainly a change you could make if it's more fun for your table.
As I mentioned above, the spell doesn't say you lose anything, even darkvision, when you are reincarnated. The only thing you specifically lose are racial ability score modifiers.
I agree it's logical to lose biology-based racial abilities, but by the RAW, you only lose what the spell says you lose, no more.
My GM ruled that Reincarnate, in giving you a new body, does loose stuff on the old body like Darkvision. The reasoning being that the spell creates a body then stuffs your soul into it. While the spell does not say you loose Darkvision, it does say you get a new body.
/cevah
The bookkeeping was just too much of a pain, so we decided that reincarnate just swapped your race out completely. Mental and physical ability scores, racial traits, etc.--everything changed. The only exception was racial prerequisites--you could keep existing spells/feats/archetypes that required the old class so long as you could physically perform them. This is far afield of RAW, but it's much less hassle when, e.g., updating a Hero Lab sheet.