Echo of Deskari

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The Insinuator antipaladin can by any evil alignment, and is one of my favorite archetypes for any class- not because of power, but because of the flavor. It's just the most petty, opportunistic class possible. They get self-healing (with mercies!) and bonus combat/skill feats, and the ability to smite any creature at the expense of dealing only half their level per hit, rather than 100%. Their choice of outsider patron for the day affects their class abilities to varying degrees.


I like the dolphin sound from Spongebob


If your PCs are beginning to question why everything doesn't stay weak and puny as they get more powerful, they might have taken ranks in knowledge (metagaming). It's a game, things get harder as you progress, by design. There's only a cap on the difficulty of certain types of enemies if the GM puts one there.

There are plenty of ways to make encounters with normally-weak foes engaging and challenging for high level players, and there's nothing wrong in my opinion with scaling up a creature to match the PCs' level. A super-duper-boar with a bajillion hp is not particularly interesting, but then again, neither is a normal boar- they're both going to charge and then gore you to death. The setting, tone, stakes, environment of an encounter... those are what make them memorable. Any monster can fit, you just have to run it right.


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Under the glittering, idealistic facade of the "enlightened" country, I'd say that there's a dangerous potential for imperialism, hubris, and nationalistic fervor, and a desire to forcibly spread their freedom to other nations. This is evident in their violent response to Katapeshi slavers and their poor ability to negotiate on an international le-

Oh. Did you mean, like, physically below?

Well, the Candlestone Caverns are below Andoran, accessed via the Aspodell mountains. They hold a rift (the Endless Gulf) that reaches all the way through the crust of the planet, down to the Midnight Mountains vault. It connects all three Darklands layers, meaning that Sekamina, the home of the drow, is accessible from the rift.


Human is essentially the best race for every class. It's also the most boring.

Gnomes and halflings both get a CHA boost, but their STR penalty means that you won't be doing much melee. Half-elf and half-orc can get a CHA boost. Aasimar, some tiefling variants, catfolk, changelings, dhampirs, etc... anything with a charisma boost is a fine choice, it just depends on flavor and whether you want to do any melee fighting.


Qlippoth spawn get no charisma bonus, but that doesn't make it impossible- you just won't have as high a CHA score. It's still an okay choice, and you get enough spells per day as an oracle to still be a great healer.


Any race can be an oracle. And you don't need to scrap the character if you really want to play it- it just won't be the most effective possible healer or support character.

Oracle is a good choice for healing, though. They can buff others much more effectively than a paladin, so overall I'd say that it's definitely better for support.


Tortured crusader is not very useful for healing, as paladins get ridiculously few spells per day and that archetype can't use LoH to heal others (and they don't get Channel Energy at all). You might be using all your spell slots for healing. Starting with 16 wisdom and getting a headband of inspired wisdom +6 will net you a total of two 4th level spells per day at 16th- not a lot, and at that level you'll likely have to save them for restoration. You might just want to have a party member craft or buy a wand of cure light wounds, since that's the best method of healing in Pathfinder.

Fey Foundling is great for healing yourself, but doesn't help for healing others. Just make sure that being found in the woods by fey fits your character concept.

As a paladin with Fey Foundling, I don't think that Diehard will be that useful. You already have high hp and can self-heal very effectively. Endurance is a worthless feat for most cases, you could replace that as well, maybe with a save-boosting feat like Lightning Reflexes since you don't have divine grace as a tortured crusader.


Matthew Downie wrote:
ErichAD wrote:
Pain effects are fort based
Counterexample: The Inflict Pain spell gives a Will save.

Counter-counterexample: symbol of pain functions as symbol of death, meaning that a Fort save negates it.

Double-counter-counterexample: pain strike is also a Fort save.

It seems that the inflict pain spell is a Will save because it's an enchantment, where the others are necromancy and evocation. The rules on these things are all over the place.


Dear lord, that's a lot of posts in a row. :p


Zepheri wrote:
Do all hatchlings chromatic dragon start as evil to?

Yep. Chromatic dragons are stated quite often to be inherently greedy, prideful, selfish, and arrogant. Those are not traits that they develop- they are inherent to chromatic dragonkind.

As for undead redemption, that's also true. You can't redeem someone if their soul is corrupted by them becoming an evil undead. Usually the most merciful option is to destroy them. Whether or not Pharasma judges them by their actions as an undead, or by their actions as a mortal, I'm not sure. I'd have to do some reading to find that out.


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Zepheri wrote:
Artofregicide wrote:
Zepheri wrote:
Let say you are a paladin of iomedae and one day you are transformer into a vampire do your alignment change or you need the evil first?
At the moment you become a vampire you also become evil.
Well that don't make sense

It makes sense if you consider an infusion of negative energy into the being of a mortal creature to be an evil influence.

I honestly don't think it makes too much sense either, but that's the canon.


Zepheri wrote:
Can you guys please stop fighting about rules and post if you're still playing the game and what are you playing

Fine, fine. I'm currently writing the AP that Artofregicide is planning to run. I recently dropped my first draft and am on my second draft, and he's kind of doing his own thing in terms of choosing which one to use and how to convert the two into one whole.

I hope to DM it in 1e eventually, when it's done and when I can actually find a group.


Zepheri wrote:


Yes the book say but how do you explain the change?

In Pathfinder, the state of being an intelligent undead makes you evil, simply because unliving beings fueled by negative energy are inherently evil (aside from the very occasional outlier like ghosts or servants of certain deities).

There are myriad examples of vampires in Paizo's work that were turned into undead against their will, including a few who actually hate undead and are ashamed of what they have become. Those vampires are still evil. You cannot be an intelligent undead, with a mind powered by negative energy, and be nonevil- aside from ghosts, for some reason. If you are Good-aligned, and become a vampire, you become Evil-aligned automatically.

Whether that's a good design choice or not is a different matter... I think the "always evil" rule for undead is a bit restrictive and not too lore-friendly, but that's the way it is.


Zepheri wrote:
Vampire don't change to evil because the book say so.

Requirement for a creature to have the vampire template: Any Evil.

They do change because the book says so. It's right there in the template.


Scavion wrote:
Well, thanks to magic you can actually check yourself for morality. Your Simulacra can cast Detect Good/Evil and those ping off current good/evil thoughts. There's pretty much no situation that magic can't bail you out. If you notice yourself slipping, an Atonement spell might be in order.

The situation where magic can’t bail you out is when you don’t want to be bailed out. Look at the most powerful magic user in Paizo’s canon, Baba Yaga. A magic user (from Earth) who got so tired of all the stupid morals and their stupid problems that she is now NE. Atonement only functions if you are genuinely repentant, and detect evil only matters if you actually care whether you’re evil or not. As for how long it takes deities to change... you’re immortal. You may as well be one, and you have a lot less inherent resistance to change than a deity.

I agree with you in that a mythic archmage could be an incredibly effective leader, but instead of modern government where influence hinges on the balance of power, it now depends on one person’s decision to live a moral life. It’s a very risky thing in my eyes, even if the reward is so great.

Spells and the like can detect, atone, etc, but you still have to both want to change, and want to cast those spells. Baba Yaga has no interest in casting detect evil on herself, I’m sure...


Scavion wrote:
If you also have the ability to make 100% correct and morally upright action each time via Flash of Omniscience then, yeah probably. There ARE good gods in Pathfinder.

Even good gods often disagree on the way to do things. And this all presupposes that you are, and will forever remain, dedicated to morality. I wouldn’t trust anyone with that kind of power- what good is Flash of Omniscience when the all-powerful wizard eventually just stops caring?

It’s a dangerous path to walk... mortals are so easily corrupted, and if deities- sentient embodiments of conviction and alignment- can be swayed and changed, who’s to say that an archmage would be a good guy forever?

Also note that Flash of Omniscience functions as the divination spell, which can only divine one week into the future. Useful to be sure, but quite limited when planning events on a global scale.


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I have infinite power and infinite benevolence!

This can only end well!!!


I think artofregicide just made a typo when typing ray of... something, I'm not quite sure. What could autocorrect to Steve? I then pounced on the opportunity to make a dumb joke, because I am just the worst.


Artofregicide wrote:
Running Strange Aeons Book 2 in PF1e, Reign of Winter Book 1 in PF1e, Hell's Rebels in PF2e, Starfinder Homebrew campaign, and playing in a 5e Homebrew campaign. I also off and on am running my spouse through a mythic solo Wrath of the Righteous, they're still in Book 1.

Hey, you forgot one! Where's my shameless plug?


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The1Ryu wrote:
And again I ask how is it simpler, a more streamlined system? How are its rules less complex or annoying?

Fine, here you go. Here's a list of some changes that make gameplay simpler, more intuitive and less bloated or confusing.

1. Combat maneuvers don't require feats.
2. Moving and then making effective attacks is no longer super difficult due to the 3 action system, which streamlines combat overall. You no longer have to have 13 int and two feats to try and trip someone.
3. Several skills have been consolidated.
4. Nearly everything is a feat now- you no longer have a ton of static class features, and instead choose feats for them.
5. Spell slots are set, not increased by casting stat.
6. You have a single AC score, not three.
7. Magic items and their slots are simplified, as are the bonuses they grant.
8. There are no longer ten thousand types of bonuses (profane, sacred, circumstance, enhancement, deflection...)
9. There are only four spell lists.

These things are not "better" or "worse", they serve to make the game more streamlined and balanced- you are less likely to see Pun-Pun, and less likely to feel useless if you pick what was once a suboptimal class. The system is more accessible to new players, though it of course contains its own complexities. In 1e, you do have options- a great breadth of options.

If you could let go of the rabid 2e hate that I see so often- that I once held myself- you would know these things, and might be able to appreciate some parts of system, even if you don't favor it over 1e.

I myself enjoy 1e far more than 2e, but I don't hate 2e, and I don't ignore its benefits. Just because people can struggle to learn a system does not mean that it was not designed to be more accessible than the one that predated it. Most people will pick up 5e more easily than 3.5, even if 5e is difficult for some.


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Sure, but what gives that game its wider appeal?

A more streamlined system, less complex or annoying rules, and a much larger appeal to beginners, since it's so much easier to learn. See the success of D&D 5e, which is orders of magnitude less complex than 3.5 but flows much more smoothly and is far easier for beginners to get into.

From what I can tell, that's the direction Paizo wanted to take 2e. It remains more complex than 5e, but many of the changes have come in the form of making the classes more balanced, lowering the power divide between martials and casters, and making gameplay and character building overall more intuitive. That may not be "perfect" in the eyes of people (like me) who actually enjoy the insane complexity and ridiculous power that you can achieve in 3.5 or Pathfinder 1e, but to others, it may be a vastly more enjoyable system.

Also see the ability of fighters and the like to do much more than charge and full attack- there are options in 2e that did not exist, or were not easily accessible, in 1e. A game can contain more, or simply improved, options without being complex.

I don't think that "technically perfect" or "better rules" applies at all to this comparison. There is no strictly objective way to make a game like Pathfinder better, hence all the rabid arguments over the two editions that spring up so frequently.


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I cast Contact Steve and make my save to avoid having my intelligence and charisma drop from having to listen to Steve's stupidity.


Xarath wrote:

Hmm, I was thinking of starting a new thread but considering what I want to posit is roughly derivative I think I will post it here.

ok, lets say after you realise you are a mythic caster, you revel in your newfound power and knowledge and leave for a bit of travel throughout the universe...

Any help that a mythic caster could bring would be vastly overshadowed by the profound and destructive effects of revealing to humanity that magic exists. You’d be better off working from the shadows, doing your utmost to remain in hiding... but that would be quite depressing.


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Zepheri wrote:
Ok I understand that point the reason I posted is because the part of succubus and incubus procreation it's something that Pathfinder don't explain completely only procreation it's with mortals, and only the demon Lord can have procreation between demons. So I use the material from forgotten to show that it can be possible I don't mean that is a fact in all Sistem but to show that if demon lord can have more demons by procreating between them why not the succubus and incubus.

Holes in one setting’s lore cannot be canonically filled with another setting’s lore, because the two settings are not compatible. So... no, you can’t fill in the holes just because there are no explanations given for certain things.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how lore, setting, and story is different from a game’s system in terms of compatibility.


You can use it in YOUR campaign. You can convert things into Pathfinder for your campaign. It does not state, or even imply, that the lore is compatible- just the rules system. The text makes no mention of using 3.5 as a reference to figure out in-universe canon. That portion is a tool for the creation of homebrew, and as I have repeatedly said, homebrew is not applicable when talking about Golarion canon.

All I'm talking about is lore. Lore from Forgotten Realms does not apply to Pathfinder because the universes, the very setting of the games, are totally different, with different nations, and different deities, and different everything.

Barring Paizo's 3.5 APs that take place in the Golarion setting, and 3rd party material that Paizo includes in their APs, reference material that you have to convert things from (or 3pp Pathfinder material) is not a canonical reference for you to use. There is no "does or doesn't apply". You can make anything work in the rules, with conversion. I'm just talking about what is true in Paizo's canon of the Golarion setting. Are you going to understand this eventually, or am I going to continually respond to the same things with the same explanations until I crumble into dust and bones?


Zepheri wrote:

So I throw to garbage all my old books because it's don't fit in Pathfinder it's that what you mean.

Your explication is like mathematics don't apply in physics.

This material are not Homebrew it reference on what Pathfinder is lacking.

The first section of the text express the use of old books as material not conversion of pc and monsters.

No, you don't throw anything away. It is perfectly fine for you to use 3.5 material in Pathfinder. Convert away. All I'm saying is that the lore of Forgotten Realms does not apply to Golarion, because the games literally take place in totally different universes. Whatever conversions or things that you take from 3.5 are not canon in the universe of Golarion, and you cannot make them so, no matter how hard you wish upon a star.

The first section of the text references converting things from 3.5 to Pathfinder- a necessary skill for GMs that want to HOMEBREW things. That's what makes it homebrew- it is not in Pathfinder canon. You have to make it up yourself, because it does not exist in the canon. This discussion pertains to what does exist in universe. Your changes are homebrew, by definition, and your homebrew is irrelevant to the discussion.


I want to be a cleric of myself!


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That text is talking about converting stat blocks and the like from 3.5 to Pathfinder or vice versa, not melding the settings together. It's literally like... one paragraph that talks about how 3.5 monsters are weaker. The rules are compatible- the settings are not. Every Pathfinder AP takes place in exactly the same universe as PFS scenarios.

Pathfinder canon remains what it is, regardless of whatever conversions you make, regardless of whatever homebrew setting you use. You cannot change what is objectively true for the Pathfinder setting, and you cannot put forth your changes as fact when they're just homebrew.


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No, they aren't. Pathfinder's setting and the Forgotten Realms setting are totally different and do not exist in the same universe. All the answers can, and do, come from one setting when canon is the topic. Pathfinder canon has nothing to do with Forgotten Realms canon, and in many cases contradicts it. Different games, made by different companies, with different settings and different lore. The only similarity is the d20 system used in both games.

You're of course allowed to use a homebrew setting where the old information is valid, but what I'm talking about (and what OP is asking for) is what's true in Pathfinder.


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Forgotten Realms is an entirely different setting. The lore for fiends in that setting does not apply.

Alu-demons in Pathfinder are children of a succubus who is impregnated while in her true form. Cambions are the offspring of a female human and an incubus, but are only born if the woman spends her entire pregnancy in the Abyss. This lore is from Demons Revisited and The Midnight Isles.

If these conditions aren't met, the offspring will always be a half-fiend. I don't know what you mean by "demonic" vs "fiendish" succubi and incubi, since demonic is the only kind. Fiendish creatures are something else entirely.


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ShroudedInLight wrote:

See, thats why I'd bump them up. Giving a WHM an extra 52 HP and +13 to its attack rolls, CMD, and CMD (along with a 4th attack roll) makes them proper scary. Obviously its not a CR19 fight anymore, but thats okay. Fey get the short end of the stick in terms of CR quite often, so I'm all for making them scary.

I feel like that would rather miss the point of fey as a whole. They're already scary, not because they're big nasty brutes who can kill you with a sword, but because of the abilities they have that aren't physical. The wild hunt monarch casts as a 17th level druid, can both daze and paralyze you with his gaze attack, and can summon a CR 18 encounter as a full-round action (bringing the total CR of the encounter to 20!)

The banelight, who can do 10d8 damage at range or in melee, with touch attacks, with no save to reduce. The bogeyman, who has a whole slew of fear-based abilities that make his sneak attack even more potent. The ankou, that can summon four copies of itself, each of which can sneak attack, flank, and cast deeper darkness. The nymph, who can blind and stun foes and casts as a 7th level druid. Nearly all fey have some kind of way to compensate for their relatively weak physical abilities.


Zepheri wrote:
since she don't grow in the abyss she don't get the immunity to poison, fire and electricity. The Dr pass to only cold iron since she don't grow up in a chaotic evil plane, and don't know how to use her spell like ability and change self.

Those things are innate. All creatures with the demon subtype are immune to electricity and poison, and DR/alignment subtypes/spell-like abilities only change in extreme circumstances, like turning into a totally different kind of creature. Fiends are not products of their environment like mortals- they *are* their environment, in that they are made of the essence of evil. A succubus "raised" away from the Abyss would almost certainly still be evil. Not to mention that demons don't start off as babies, they start off as fully formed demons (usually dretches) that then evolve into different types of demons.


I think fey aren't outsiders because outsiders are defined by their bodies and souls being one unit- they're formed of the essence of their home plane. Fey are just life that inhabits the First World, and aren't made of the same "stuff" as outsiders. They're much more varied than any given race of outsider, and are fundamentally different on a cosmic level, even if they share similarities in being extraplanar or non-native to the Material Plane.

Then there's the fact that outsiders are formed from mortal souls, while fey are formed by... I'm not sure, actually.


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The fey type is one of, if not the weakest types. Low to-hit, low hp, bad fortitude save. They tend to have much higher hit dice in order to function as well as other creatures of their CR- see the wild hunt monarch, given a whopping 26 hit dice and a +5 weapon just so that he can do well in melee. Often they depend on their magical or supernatural abilities, which I think makes them balanced enough overall.

They don't use weapons or armor, because they don't need to- they are intensely magical in most cases, or at least have unique defenses and offenses.


Sandslice wrote:
TheGreatWot wrote:
Inaccurate things
A couple things here are... not quite accurate?

Well, darn. Never mind then.


The first world isn't in the same group- the Outer/Inner Spheres- as the other planes. It's said to be "behind" the Material Plane more than outside of it, and it's so disconnected from the universe that you can't even plane shift to it. I assume that fey are not extraplanar because this works both ways- banishment magic doesn't work on them, because piercing the barriers between the First World and the Material Plane is so difficult.


Paizo has had a multitude of encounters with divine spellcasters who do not perfectly follow their deities' codes. One of them- Ceto Malderra, a warpriest of Iomedae- is even a boss fight in Tyrant's Grasp, and despite attacking the heroic PCs at the behest of two evil undead chreatures, does not lose her warpriest abilities during the fight. The only thing that I can find as an instant loss of power is renouncing or letting go of your faith in your deity, which is often much more gradual than blasphemy or the like.

The rules for losing divine power, and the situations in which they are lost, are somewhat blurry, but as far as Paizo's in-game examples of divine spellcasters and heretics go, it isn't black and white by any means.


Mortals couldn't kill a 20/10 mythic wizard (or any character at 9th rank or above, really), because we don't have any artifacts. The best we could do is deprive them of anything they need to cast a spell (hoping that they don't have Eschew Materials or the like), immobilize them as best we can (difficult, due to mythic saving throws and the unstoppable ability) and blast them into the void of space, never to return.

And even with those precautions, it only really works against a mythic spellcaster that has no way to speak in the void of space, cast without components, or some other method of escape, plus it assumes that we mortals could apprehend and stop them for long enough to do all of that stuff.


I generally see it as, you adopted this animal as a baby/juvenile and are raising it as you grow in power alongside each other. Not because it fits the rules, just because I think it's adorable.


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Y'all are forgetting what makes a level 15 caster's fireball actually more powerful: They're going to have a higher casting stat. Pathfinder already included a scaling system for spells. The casting stat is the real indicator of your magical power.


All I know how to play is depressed elves. I'm already depressed as a human, and being an elf would be... cool, but I'd have to watch everyone I know die. So, I wouldn't regret my choices as much as my very existence.


Give me Darth Vader!


VoodistMonk wrote:
Didn't Bo Jackson play baseball and football? Neither of those games utilizes or includes the other game's statistics.

What OP is suggesting is more in line with playing baseball by hitting a football with a baseball bat.


No conversions? That sounds like putting a lawnmower engine into a car and expecting it to run. I don't think it's possible to play a character in a system that does not include that character's statistics.


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Java Man wrote:
The fork for Plane shift is specific to the destination, not the origin point.

Even better. Now not even you can access it, unless you die. I guess you'll need tuning forks attuned to the Material Plane instead...


VoodistMonk wrote:
As for exactly what I would use as my phylactery... I don't really care about its shape or general size... as long as it's radioactive/toxic/poisonous for like 99% of living beings to handle without specific protective equipment.

The easiest option is just to make a demiplane, fill it with tuning forks attuned to said demiplane (like... thousands of them), put your phylactery there, and leave. Once you've plane shifted back, disintegrate the tuning fork you used to leave.

You'll never need to enter the demiplane, and in the event that you die, you'll rejuvenate there and be able to get back to the material plane by using one of the forks stored there. It's foolproof.


That gives them a whole lot of power and lessens the excitement of getting a new level. If I had to improve spontaneous casters I'd just knock their spell progression up to what prepared casters get, rather than one level later. It always struck me as strange that they're a level behind.


Zepheri wrote:
It's transformation spell to powerful in the magus spell list?

Magi can't make use of spell combat while transformed, so they definitely lose plenty of utility if they cast transformation. It increases Str, Dex, and Con, raises your AC, and improves your base attack bonus- in other words, it turns you into a fighter.

Magi can do all of those things with magic already, while retaining use of their spell combat and other caster abilities. It can definitely be a powerful spell if you've already got all your buffs up, but I wouldn't call it too powerful, especially since the bonuses to ability scores are enhancement bonuses and thus don't stack with other spells or magic items.

Plus it deprives magi of shocking grasp spam, which is sadly why most people pick the class in the first place.


Yes, some people are already familiar with the project. I'll still give a rundown for those who don't have time to read the entire thing. It's an AP running from level 4 to level 11, functioning with milestone leveling. There's a short list of some houserules that I use in the document, but they're largely removable without too much conversion.

The setting is Sotrea, a region that I created but haven't really placed on the map- there's no set location as to where on Golarion it should go. The plot centers around defeating the plans of a mothman who serves the outer Goddess Shub-Niggurath, saving the people of Sotrea from an enormous sacrificial invasion of gnolls. It begins as a journey to a western town that's been besieged by gnolls, liberating the town and sealing the dungeons below it. After that, it turns into a more open-world exploration type of adventure, eventually facing the gnoll threat in the east before putting an end to the mothman in a segment that takes place in the Darklands.

Some of the prominent themes are Lovecraftian atmosphere, the "wilderness exploration" that many adventures in Varisia have, and subversion of some common fantasy tropes.

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