Why aren't all fey considered extraplanar?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


They come from the First World, which is another plane, right? Do creatures just lose the extraplanar type if they've lived on another plane long enough?


The first world isn't in the same group- the Outer/Inner Spheres- as the other planes. It's said to be "behind" the Material Plane more than outside of it, and it's so disconnected from the universe that you can't even plane shift to it. I assume that fey are not extraplanar because this works both ways- banishment magic doesn't work on them, because piercing the barriers between the First World and the Material Plane is so difficult.


The First World is not so much as another Plane, but an alternate dimension. In many ways it is made up of the SAME stuff as the Material plane, just a more primal form. It is/was a testing ground for the various gods to experiment with before the creation of the universe in the Material realm. The Gnomes originated from there and gradually lost their Fey typing, but they never had the Outsider, or treated as extraplanar.


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TheGreatWot wrote:
The first world isn't in the same group- the Outer/Inner Spheres- as the other planes. It's said to be "behind" the Material Plane more than outside of it, and it's so disconnected from the universe that you can't even plane shift to it. I assume that fey are not extraplanar because this works both ways- banishment magic doesn't work on them, because piercing the barriers between the First World and the Material Plane is so difficult.

A couple things here are... not quite accurate?

1. From Ultimate Wilderness: "Other means of traveling to and from the First World include powerful spells such as fey gate, gate, and plane shift."

2. Material Plane natives are, in fact, extraplanar while on First World. There's a magic item for gnomes called the amulet of Eldest's blessing that lets them get around this:

Quote:
This crystalline amulet holds a fragment from the First World domain of one of the Eldest. A gnome wearing the amulet does not count as extraplanar on the First World. The wearer heals 1 point of lethal damage every minute and an equal amount of nonlethal damage, up to a maximum each day equal to her Hit Dice or character level. Finally, she gains a +4 insight bonus on saving throws against the Bleaching.

3. Arguably, actual First Worlders *should* gain extraplanar on the Material Plane, looking (for example) at the Wild Hunt creatures. These are chaotic neutral fey, normally of the First World, that have an (Ex) ability called planar acclimation. The ability prevents the bearer from gaining extraplanar on any plane; and Wild Hunts are not generally known to operate on any planes other than the First World and the Material Plane.

The Tane - mythic beasts such as the jabberwock and leviathan - also have that ability.


So to the OP's point yes; some fey have resided in the Material so long that they have actually changed in form and substance to become beings of the Material. See, in the First World a mite wouldn't always LOOK like a mite from the Bestiary. It would be smaller usually, but also might take on different physical characteristics depending on the whim of the First World, the passions of the mite or the will of the Eldest ruling over the region.

When mites came to the Prime then they more or less solidified into the form we see in the books. Regardless of how small and unimposing as they are compared to, say, an orc, mites on the Prime are bigger and tougher than their First World counterparts.

Of course, this is all based on the fluff and the bit quoted above about the spell Plane Shift working. Even in the Pathfinder Wiki it says

First World wrote:
The First World is so called because it is believed to be the gods' first draft of a subsequent plane that would later split into the Material Plane and the Shadow Plane. It is coterminous with the Material Plane and the Shadow Plane, but exists outside the standard cosmology, being somehow "behind" the other two planes

This suggestion of both a connection to the Prime and the Plane of Shadow along with the mention of it existing OUTSIDE the standard cosmology makes the First World an anomaly. It isn't like the other, "standard" planes. In fact many fluff bits in various sources suggest that the idea that the First World was a blueprint for the Prime is proof that some of the concepts of creatures that exist in the Prime began in the First World.

In other words, the Fey of the First World might actually be a test model for something that lives in the Prime. Namely, the fey of the Prime.


Personally in my home games I just say the First World is just that... a world. The fey are beings who took special bridges to the earth where the adventurers are and are beings of spirit stuff, not made of a body and soul mixture. When they die some of the fey spirits find these bridges back home and some can even find and use them while alive. The secret paths of the fey generally have something to do with moonlight, circuitous routes and the wild places of the earth.


Sandslice wrote:
TheGreatWot wrote:
Inaccurate things
A couple things here are... not quite accurate?

Well, darn. Never mind then.


Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

So to the OP's point yes; some fey have resided in the Material so long that they have actually changed in form and substance to become beings of the Material.

I'd say this. Fey on the material plane are not usually the ones from the First World. They're ones born or have lived in the Material Plane for extremely long periods of time since I don't think Fey really age the same way mortals do and even then they reincarnate like crazy.

Notice all the big fey from the actual First World has Planar Acclimation so they don't even give a damn :D

Dark Archive

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At least some fey seem strongly tied to the natural world / features of the material plane, such as a Dryad to her tree, or a Fossergrim to their waterfall/pool. It would make sense that these particular fey would have lost any extraplanar nature, being so strongly bonded to this plane.

But for fey without such a specific bond, I imagine *some* are actual visitors from the First World, and could have the Extraplanar trait / type, which would be interesting, a mixed group of Sprites, some native, some 'tourists,' who found a crossing and came over to hang with their material plane cousins. (And a banishment type effect would send the 'tourists' home and not affect the natives at all!)


I’d be perfectly happy to make all Fey into outsiders, some native some not. That lets me change all the Fey from d6 1/2 BAB into d10 full BAB.

The results would be, quite interesting given that Fey often have vastly inflated HD for their CR because of how crappy their base growths are.


Shroudy Mc LightIn: y'know what, I'd go the opposite: I'm happy saying the fey are a completely separate type from their First World cousins. Any fey native to the First World are Outsiders, but the fey remain the fey.

Then I'd give weapons, 3/4 BAB.

Think about it: Druids, beings who exist almost exclusively in wilderness, even URBAN wilderness such as toxic sludge druids (I think they're actually called Swarm Druids or something), and they get to use certain weapons and armor. Under fey it says:

Traits wrote:

A fey possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

•Low-light vision.
•Proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
•Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Fey not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Fey are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.

See, I get upset because most of the "naturalized" fey have one trait in common: they've been on the Prime for a long time. Presumably as long or longer than the mortal races have been here. So if we're saying that a largely CN, aggressively curious bunch of outsiders, for whom Craft is a Class skill (so they're decidedly good with their hands as evidenced by the many folklore stories the fey are drawn from) have existed on the fringes of mortal society for centuries and never got around to using anything more than darts, clubs, slings and spears, how did they exist this long?

For that matter, these beings have had to adapt to living within charging distance of Animals, some Plants, many Magical Beasts, Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids, and so on. Yes, the fey have lots of skill ranks per HD and some have a few special powers that can get them out of a jam, but by and large to have survived for millennia using Simple weapons. I just seems weird to me but I suppose every fey is a "prey" animal that has developed tons of natural defense mechanisms instead of adapting more natural weapons and aggressive strategies.


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The fey type is one of, if not the weakest types. Low to-hit, low hp, bad fortitude save. They tend to have much higher hit dice in order to function as well as other creatures of their CR- see the wild hunt monarch, given a whopping 26 hit dice and a +5 weapon just so that he can do well in melee. Often they depend on their magical or supernatural abilities, which I think makes them balanced enough overall.

They don't use weapons or armor, because they don't need to- they are intensely magical in most cases, or at least have unique defenses and offenses.

Dark Archive

Part of me wants to just make them all Outsiders.

Then the other part of me thinks Outsiders have too much stuff, and that I don't necessarily want fey, elementals, etc. to have all that stuff...

So, yeah, typical me. Imma ride this fence.


I think fey aren't outsiders because outsiders are defined by their bodies and souls being one unit- they're formed of the essence of their home plane. Fey are just life that inhabits the First World, and aren't made of the same "stuff" as outsiders. They're much more varied than any given race of outsider, and are fundamentally different on a cosmic level, even if they share similarities in being extraplanar or non-native to the Material Plane.

Then there's the fact that outsiders are formed from mortal souls, while fey are formed by... I'm not sure, actually.


TheGreatWot wrote:
The fey type is one of, if not the weakest types. Low to-hit, low hp, bad fortitude save. They tend to have much higher hit dice in order to function as well as other creatures of their CR- see the wild hunt monarch, given a whopping 26 hit dice and a +5 weapon just so that he can do well in melee. Often they depend on their magical or supernatural abilities, which I think makes them balanced enough overall.

See, thats why I'd bump them up. Giving a WHM an extra 52 HP and +13 to its attack rolls, CMD, and CMD (along with a 4th attack roll) makes them proper scary. Obviously its not a CR19 fight anymore, but thats okay. Fey get the short end of the stick in terms of CR quite often, so I'm all for making them scary.

Though going with the half measure and boosting them to d8 and 3/4ths BAB isn't bad either. Them being a d6 creature is just an artifact of 3.5 and isn't necessary.


This reminds a page I read long time ago in d&d, they stats and ex/so it's not some bloodline legacy, it's the ambient in with you grow up and who shows you how to use your power.

Example the succubus paladin: one day a paladin go to the abyss to kill some demon when he Finnish his task before returning back he listens some baby crying, rushing he finds a baby succubus, instead of killing her he take her with him and rise her as his child. since she don't grow in the abyss she don't get the immunity to poison, fire and electricity. The Dr pass to only cold iron since she don't grow up in a chaotic evil plane, and don't know how to use her spell like ability and change self.

So in this case it's not strange that some fey that travel to the material plane, don't teach the next generation how to use they spell like ability and to start to lose some of the ex/immunity.

Other example are the elf in theory they are also Fey but in some point the when they travel to other planes they power and ability start to reduce


Zepheri wrote:
since she don't grow in the abyss she don't get the immunity to poison, fire and electricity. The Dr pass to only cold iron since she don't grow up in a chaotic evil plane, and don't know how to use her spell like ability and change self.

Those things are innate. All creatures with the demon subtype are immune to electricity and poison, and DR/alignment subtypes/spell-like abilities only change in extreme circumstances, like turning into a totally different kind of creature. Fiends are not products of their environment like mortals- they *are* their environment, in that they are made of the essence of evil. A succubus "raised" away from the Abyss would almost certainly still be evil. Not to mention that demons don't start off as babies, they start off as fully formed demons (usually dretches) that then evolve into different types of demons.


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ShroudedInLight wrote:

See, thats why I'd bump them up. Giving a WHM an extra 52 HP and +13 to its attack rolls, CMD, and CMD (along with a 4th attack roll) makes them proper scary. Obviously its not a CR19 fight anymore, but thats okay. Fey get the short end of the stick in terms of CR quite often, so I'm all for making them scary.

I feel like that would rather miss the point of fey as a whole. They're already scary, not because they're big nasty brutes who can kill you with a sword, but because of the abilities they have that aren't physical. The wild hunt monarch casts as a 17th level druid, can both daze and paralyze you with his gaze attack, and can summon a CR 18 encounter as a full-round action (bringing the total CR of the encounter to 20!)

The banelight, who can do 10d8 damage at range or in melee, with touch attacks, with no save to reduce. The bogeyman, who has a whole slew of fear-based abilities that make his sneak attack even more potent. The ankou, that can summon four copies of itself, each of which can sneak attack, flank, and cast deeper darkness. The nymph, who can blind and stun foes and casts as a 7th level druid. Nearly all fey have some kind of way to compensate for their relatively weak physical abilities.


TheGreatWot wrote:
Zepheri wrote:
since she don't grow in the abyss she don't get the immunity to poison, fire and electricity. The Dr pass to only cold iron since she don't grow up in a chaotic evil plane, and don't know how to use her spell like ability and change self.
Those things are innate. All creatures with the demon subtype are immune to electricity and poison, and DR/alignment subtypes/spell-like abilities only change in extreme circumstances, like turning into a totally different kind of creature. Fiends are not products of their environment like mortals- they *are* their environment, in that they are made of the essence of evil. A succubus "raised" away from the Abyss would almost certainly still be evil. Not to mention that demons don't start off as babies, they start off as fully formed demons (usually dretches) that then evolve into different types of demons.

I differ the only innate ability that a succubus have is her profane gift, telepathy and the energy drain. As for the immunity they could pass to resistance bonus since I'm following the savages species book. The part of the baby it arguable no one know at now if is possible or not (based in d&d and other forum)


Zepheri wrote:
TheGreatWot wrote:
Zepheri wrote:
since she don't grow in the abyss she don't get the immunity to poison, fire and electricity. The Dr pass to only cold iron since she don't grow up in a chaotic evil plane, and don't know how to use her spell like ability and change self.
Those things are innate. All creatures with the demon subtype are immune to electricity and poison, and DR/alignment subtypes/spell-like abilities only change in extreme circumstances, like turning into a totally different kind of creature. Fiends are not products of their environment like mortals- they *are* their environment, in that they are made of the essence of evil. A succubus "raised" away from the Abyss would almost certainly still be evil. Not to mention that demons don't start off as babies, they start off as fully formed demons (usually dretches) that then evolve into different types of demons.
I differ the only innate ability that a succubus have is her profane gift, telepathy and the energy drain. As for the immunity they could pass to resistance bonus since I'm following the savages species book. The part of the baby it arguable no one know at now if is possible or not (based in d&d and other forum)

Pretty much every edition explicitly states where demons/devils/daemons come from. In Golarion/Pathfinder, petitioners(What your soul becomes when you die) get sent to the plane most aligned with your alignment. Most of the time, your soul is obliterated into the soulstuff that makes up the planes itself. Sometimes your soul becomes the masses of entry level outsiders. For Chaotic Evil folks, that means becoming a Dretch for the vast majority although particularly powerful/willful souls sometimes form higher level outsiders. Even rarer are the souls who retain their memories from when they once lived.

And yeah, the afterlife sucks.


Yes but once the demon it's form they can reproduce to create more demons like the succubus and incubus of the midnight island (Nocticula ex plane)


Zepheri wrote:
Yes but once the demon it's form they can reproduce to create more demons like the succubus and incubus of the midnight island (Nocticula ex plane)

Do you have a source? They're capable of producing Tieflings with mortals, but flat out reproduction of outsiders is never stated.


Per the cosmology of Golarion (and again, that's just the default setting for PF, not PF itself), souls go on a constant loop going through certain planes where the souls take on some innate tendencies that will shape the mortals those souls become, then flowing into the Prime where the souls enter mortal bodies, and finally upon death the souls flow back up the loop to the Boneyard where finally they receive their final judgment/assignment to an afterlife. Once the soul enters another plane upon their afterlife...

Some become Dretches or Larvae, or other base forms on some evil/good planes. Although they forget much of their mortal lives, the actions and general bent of their mortal existence may propel souls into other forms within these planes. Finally, some planes allow for evolution of forms, or promotion, or demotion in some cases, based on what the outsider does with their new life and charge.

Then there's the First World. Souls pass through, but never stop here. They have no souls, nor do any get routed here as an afterlife. The plane is just a pure ball of clay type scenario where the wills of the Eldest lend SOME kind of form to everything that wasn't sketched here eons ago by the gods, and life and death don't really mean much since there is no permanent destruction of creatures in the First World as the place has basically been set outside the standard cosmology.

Now the wiki I cited above describes the First World as coterminous, meaning at some point or points their plane touches ours. Since the first blush of reality as we know it was likely fairly wild and prehistoric those places in the First World that still have form are likely to resemble wilderness areas of the Prime. Thus when the fey come to this world they find themselves most at home in forests, undisturbed waters, primordial wilds, etc.

However, some of the fluff on the Fey in the Prime describe them as having some kind of a spirit. There are nature spirits throughout the Bestiaries. The Golarion wiki suggests that some fey were drawn to the Prime following soul stuff and may have even interacted with it, sluffing off a piece for themselves to give them the free will to make the journey to the Prime and remain once here.

It could be that the simple act of coming across, from the First World to the Prime, imparts SOME sliver of soul-stuff to the fey, turning them from the chaotic potential they are back home into the fixed, static forms they are in the material plane. Further this soul-stuff manifests as a spirit after death. It is a soul existing outside the standard life/death/afterlife process of the normal cosmology; the spirit simply hangs about in the Prime, where it once existed as a mortal. It might evolve into another form like a Leshy or a Kami or whatever, or it might just fade into some ethereal echo.

Whatever the case, Outsiders (as pointed out by Dr WOTson above) are the result of a soul fusing with the stuff of the plane it was assigned to after death. The First World is cosmology-adjacent and thus has no souls coming from/going to it. Thus, no outsiders.


Sorry I was wrong in the location

Once it was considered that demonic succubi and incubi did not mate with one another to procreate.[4][5] However, fiendish succubi and incubi could indeed reproduce to birth more of their race.[1]

The female child of a succubus and a human male was traditionally called an alu-fiend. Those with non-evil human fathers had a slight tendency to avoid the evil of their heritage.[20] The male child of an incubus (indeed, any lesser tanar'ri) and a human female was a cambion. Again, those with non-evil human fathers had a slight tendency to be non-evil

The information was posted by forgotten realms

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Succubus


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Forgotten Realms is an entirely different setting. The lore for fiends in that setting does not apply.

Alu-demons in Pathfinder are children of a succubus who is impregnated while in her true form. Cambions are the offspring of a female human and an incubus, but are only born if the woman spends her entire pregnancy in the Abyss. This lore is from Demons Revisited and The Midnight Isles.

If these conditions aren't met, the offspring will always be a half-fiend. I don't know what you mean by "demonic" vs "fiendish" succubi and incubi, since demonic is the only kind. Fiendish creatures are something else entirely.


TheGreatWot wrote:

Forgotten Realms is an entirely different setting. The lore for fiends in that setting does not apply.

Alu-demons in Pathfinder are children of a succubus who is impregnated while in her true form. Cambions are the offspring of a female human and an incubus, but are only born if the woman spends her entire pregnancy in the Abyss. This lore is from Demons Revisited and The Midnight Isles.

If these conditions aren't met, the offspring will always be a half-fiend. I don't know what you mean by "demonic" vs "fiendish" succubi and incubi, since demonic is the only kind. Fiendish creatures are something else entirely.

I use forgotten realms as a material reference, not all the answers can't came from 1 setting it's the same I you use legendary games in a Pathfinder game. Additional Pathfinder it's based in d&d so old books from d&d are valid.


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No, they aren't. Pathfinder's setting and the Forgotten Realms setting are totally different and do not exist in the same universe. All the answers can, and do, come from one setting when canon is the topic. Pathfinder canon has nothing to do with Forgotten Realms canon, and in many cases contradicts it. Different games, made by different companies, with different settings and different lore. The only similarity is the d20 system used in both games.

You're of course allowed to use a homebrew setting where the old information is valid, but what I'm talking about (and what OP is asking for) is what's true in Pathfinder.


Dungeon master guide page 51 said explicit you can use other materials from 3.0, 3.5 even if from other setting.
Maybe don't apply in PFS but for the rest it's apply


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That text is talking about converting stat blocks and the like from 3.5 to Pathfinder or vice versa, not melding the settings together. It's literally like... one paragraph that talks about how 3.5 monsters are weaker. The rules are compatible- the settings are not. Every Pathfinder AP takes place in exactly the same universe as PFS scenarios.

Pathfinder canon remains what it is, regardless of whatever conversions you make, regardless of whatever homebrew setting you use. You cannot change what is objectively true for the Pathfinder setting, and you cannot put forth your changes as fact when they're just homebrew.


So I throw to garbage all my old books because it's don't fit in Pathfinder it's that what you mean.

Your explication is like mathematics don't apply in physics.

This material are not Homebrew it reference on what Pathfinder is lacking.

The first section of the text express the use of old books as material not conversion of pc and monsters.


Zepheri wrote:

So I throw to garbage all my old books because it's don't fit in Pathfinder it's that what you mean.

Your explication is like mathematics don't apply in physics.

This material are not Homebrew it reference on what Pathfinder is lacking.

The first section of the text express the use of old books as material not conversion of pc and monsters.

No, you don't throw anything away. It is perfectly fine for you to use 3.5 material in Pathfinder. Convert away. All I'm saying is that the lore of Forgotten Realms does not apply to Golarion, because the games literally take place in totally different universes. Whatever conversions or things that you take from 3.5 are not canon in the universe of Golarion, and you cannot make them so, no matter how hard you wish upon a star.

The first section of the text references converting things from 3.5 to Pathfinder- a necessary skill for GMs that want to HOMEBREW things. That's what makes it homebrew- it is not in Pathfinder canon. You have to make it up yourself, because it does not exist in the canon. This discussion pertains to what does exist in universe. Your changes are homebrew, by definition, and your homebrew is irrelevant to the discussion.


I think you mistake the text.

The part to read it's in convert content from 3.5 or other systems

Quote:
rolling playing games have been around for over 30 years, and there's are a huge Library of material from other games which you can use in your campaign.

This express that I can use all that material to the game or as a reference.

Like the Bushido from rokugan, magic items and spell from old books, prestige class, feats like leadership feat from heroes of battle, more information about a creature that doesn't appear in Pathfinder

Like I said it's reference material. If you say it's don't apply because paizo don't published it's ok, but that means that 3er party of material like Legendary games also don't apply in the Pathfinder game


You can use it in YOUR campaign. You can convert things into Pathfinder for your campaign. It does not state, or even imply, that the lore is compatible- just the rules system. The text makes no mention of using 3.5 as a reference to figure out in-universe canon. That portion is a tool for the creation of homebrew, and as I have repeatedly said, homebrew is not applicable when talking about Golarion canon.

All I'm talking about is lore. Lore from Forgotten Realms does not apply to Pathfinder because the universes, the very setting of the games, are totally different, with different nations, and different deities, and different everything.

Barring Paizo's 3.5 APs that take place in the Golarion setting, and 3rd party material that Paizo includes in their APs, reference material that you have to convert things from (or 3pp Pathfinder material) is not a canonical reference for you to use. There is no "does or doesn't apply". You can make anything work in the rules, with conversion. I'm just talking about what is true in Paizo's canon of the Golarion setting. Are you going to understand this eventually, or am I going to continually respond to the same things with the same explanations until I crumble into dust and bones?


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But the people who work at Paizo will not pay any attention to anything in a book from the oldest roleplaying game when writing anything new, and indeed will happily contradict anything written by another company about a different setting if they want.

So use old lore or lore from other settings if you want, but Paizo is not going to pay any attention to that.

Like if you had a question about "How does Pharasma handle this case" answers of the form "well, Kelemvor does this" are at best tangential since we're talking about a different primary death god in a different setting. They've both got Asmodeus, but he's pretty different between the two.


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Zepheri wrote:

So I throw to garbage all my old books because it's don't fit in Pathfinder it's that what you mean.

Your explication is like mathematics don't apply in physics.

No. If I might try.

The compatibility of Pathfinder and D&D 3/.5 is like saying that "how to forge a Katana" and "how to forge a Viking sword" are similar.

However, we can't go from similarities in pattern-welding technique, and then suggest that the life philosophy of Japanese and Danish warriors are similar!

When dealing with the difference between campaign settings - Golarion, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Birthright, al-Qadim, etc... - it's more like the latter case.

Yes, there are materials that can be converted into Pathfinder's version of the d20 system. However, a lot of it assumes setting-specific rules of reality as well, and that needs to be kept in mind.

An example question is this.

Spoiler:
Take two characters, Azim (NG Pure Land Legionnaire), and Terhen (LG ranger who worships Mielikki.) They both die in Russia. Where do their souls end up?

Does Azim go to:
- Nirvana, NG version?
- The Wall of the Faithless?
- Russian hell?

Does Terhen go to:
- Nirvana, NG version, based on Mielikki's alignment?
- Heaven, based on Terhen's alignment?
- FR Mielikki's domain, wherever it happens to be?
- Russian hell?
- Tuonela, the land of the dead in Finnish myth, since Mielikki is a Finnish goddess who was imported into FR (along with Loviatar)?

What makes the determination?

Also, if a ba'atezu and a devil step through a portal to Nirvana together, will they have alignment problems when they get there?


Ok I understand that point the reason I posted is because the part of succubus and incubus procreation it's something that Pathfinder don't explain completely only procreation it's with mortals, and only the demon Lord can have procreation between demons. So I use the material from forgotten to show that it can be possible I don't mean that is a fact in all Sistem but to show that if demon lord can have more demons by procreating between them why not the succubus and incubus.


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Zepheri wrote:
Ok I understand that point the reason I posted is because the part of succubus and incubus procreation it's something that Pathfinder don't explain completely only procreation it's with mortals, and only the demon Lord can have procreation between demons. So I use the material from forgotten to show that it can be possible I don't mean that is a fact in all Sistem but to show that if demon lord can have more demons by procreating between them why not the succubus and incubus.

Holes in one setting’s lore cannot be canonically filled with another setting’s lore, because the two settings are not compatible. So... no, you can’t fill in the holes just because there are no explanations given for certain things.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how lore, setting, and story is different from a game’s system in terms of compatibility.


Interesting conversation folks. Just remember to play nice. Also, from other threads with these same posters, I think there may be a bit of a language barrier. Maybe make sure you all have the same understanding of the terms you're using. I don't think anyone is being intentionally obtuse or trolling here; but, there is a break down in the communication.


I'm pretty sure at least some Demons (beyond Demon Lords) can procreate with other demons and pretty much anything, it definitely fits the equally fecund and carnal nature of their kind.

That said, I super can't think of any examples that aren't Demon Lords... maybe that's why the rank and file are so cranky all the time...


Fey are similar to native outsiders due to the First World being a plane that is in the same place as the material plane just behind it like a half finished painting that was painted over when the artist decided they had a better idea. Since they're cut from the same cloth they aren't truly extraplaner. But unlike any form of outsiders, they don't have souls (per Fey Revisited) making them different than the unified body and soul of actual outsider and the dual body and soul nature of mortals.

On the subject of Outsider procreation, to the best I can recall outsiders cannot breed with each other in the traditional biological fashion. It appears they need a mortal creature of some kind to take part in it giving us half-celestials, tieflings, and such. The only time I've found of two outsiders having offspring were when at least one was of at least demigod equivalent power. (And I want to say, all instances were both of at least that power but I'm not sure of this.) Considering demigod level of power grants demon lords the ability to shape and create things in their section of the Abyss from the pure quintessence of the plane, it stands to reason that the creation of these offspring is not a result of biology but divine creation in which case infancy would be irrelevant.

That said, it makes Ragathiel an interesting point of discussion as he is LG but was was born in Hell to a LE and N pair of demigod level powers, but said LE once being an angel may account for the oddity.


Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
Personally in my home games I just say the First World is just that... a world. The fey are beings who took special bridges to the earth where the adventurers are and are beings of spirit stuff, not made of a body and soul mixture. When they die some of the fey spirits find these bridges back home and some can even find and use them while alive. The secret paths of the fey generally have something to do with moonlight, circuitous routes and the wild places of the earth.

I so very much agree with this. In my home game I have ruled that the feywild only encompasses an area that is roughly the same size as Golarion itself haha. Makes it a lot simpler for me.


If you like that setting detail PF, try this one on for size: in my home games many fey, especially those of the First World, actively campaign against all of the gods. Most low-CR fey don't remember or care much about the fact that the gods turned away from their "drawing board" once they had the Prime world the way they wanted it, but some like the Tane or the Eldest have a burning hatred of all things Divine and Profane.

Native fey in my homebrew setting don't age; they achieve a certain level of maturity and then simply exist. They can obviously still die to wounds, disease, poison and so on, but never from old age. Between this ageless trait, their natural skills and guile, spell-like abilities and such, those who feel slighted by the gods take great pleasure in sowing blasphemy, heresy, and outright turning worshippers away from organized religions.

I've had tribes of corrupt sprites bonded with wasps and bees claim to be servitors of Calistria, only to turn an entire village into conniving, vengeful villains. The Cult of the Sting was actually receiving their spells (Druidic NPC class spells) from some primal force of the wilds.

I used a Blodeuwedd Queen who'd held dominion over her meadow for centuries claim herself a demigod, promoted to her title by Pharasma. She coerced worship through the sacrifice of animals and claims to be watching over the graves of the dead within her impossibly vast prairie. In point of fact she takes these dead things through the now-permanent illusory terrain spell she has in place to fertilize the soil. In return however she DOES issue a blessing upon the village twice per year which gives them bountiful harvests and keeps their flocks of sheep and goats strong and healthy.

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