Spellcasting Contract Recharging Staves?


Rules Questions


I'm wondering if a Contracted Person [according to the Spellcasting Contract spell] is able to charge a staff with his spells.

Spellcasting Contract wrote:

This spell functions exactly like imbue with spell ability, except that you can imbue the target with any spell you have prepared (instead of just abjuration, divination, or conjuration [healing] spells) and the target may have more than one use of the imbued spells, depending upon the arrangements made when it is cast.

Casting this spell requires a contract between you and the target, explaining what spells are to be imbued and the circumstances that cause the contract to expire. The contract may be as simple as allowing the target one casting of each of the imbued spells (as per imbue with spell ability), or may continue for multiple days or even indefinitely, with the target regaining use of the imbued spells when you next prepare your own spells.

This grants these spells to the Contracted Person, which they regain 'when you prepare spells or regain spell slots.'

Recharging Staves wrote:
Staves hold a maximum of 10 charges. Each spell cast from a staff consumes one or more charges. When a staff runs out of charges, it cannot be used until it is recharged. Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells or regains spell slots, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff is on his spell list and he is capable of casting at least one of the spells. Imbuing a staff with this power restores one charge to the staff, but the caster must forgo one prepared spell or spell slot of a level equal to the highest-level spell cast by the staff. For example, a 9th-level wizard with a staff of fire could imbue the staff with one charge per day by using up one of his 4th-level spells. A staff cannot gain more than one charge per day and a caster cannot imbue more than one staff per day.

By my reading, a Contracted Person could recharge a staff that held at least one of the spells he has been imbued with by expending a spell of the appropriate level when his Contractor prepares/recovers spells [much like how the contractor himself must do to recharge a staff.]

The reason for using this is because any given spellcaster can only recharge one staff per day.

The disadvantage is that the staff is restricted to spells of 3rd level or lower, which is an even bigger disadvantage than initially appears because staves must be at least 8th caster level, in essence wasting one of the spell levels a minimum caster level spell could possess.

Any thoughts/disagreements with my reasoning here?


It's been about 3 hours and this post has been pushed beneath the front forum index so I figure I'll give it one bump and see if I get any takers before it gets buried again.


An interesting set of spells which I hadn't previously seen...and as an oracle of Asmodeus (Way of the Wicked), I thank you.

Yes, it seems like a fine and valid use of the spell, unless you word the contract to prohibit doing so.


It is probably technically legal. But your GM probably shouldn't allow it despite that.


Claxon wrote:
It is probably technically legal. But your GM probably shouldn't allow it despite that.

Why not? I don't see any abuse of power that would make this combination OP in any way. As others have pointed out:

- The Contracted Person cannot charge the same staff as anyone else.
- The Original Caster must sacrifice a 5th/7th/9th level slot PER DAY.
- The Contracted Person can only charge a staff with, at maximum, 2nd/3rd/5th level spells.

Honestly, if someone wants to spend a 9th level spell slot to give an extra charge to a 5th level staff, I say let them. There are far more broken things to do with 9th level spells.


Probably because permanently sacrificing a spell slot that high for those spells is a very bad trade that I can't see anybody actually making.

The key with this spell is to use a scroll of it. You still give up the spell slots you're actually giving away, but you aren't tying up a spellslot for the Spellcasting Contract itself.

As a GM one thing I do know is that said scroll would be classed as permanent treasure [like a permanent magic item worn/wielded by a party member] rather than an expended consumable for the duration of the contract.

EDIT: incidentally I just love the flavor of a scroll of this spell with a basic framework of a contract worked right into it to be filled out by the involved parties prior to casting.


I did misunderstand something last night when I originally posted.

I thought kyrt was trying to bypass the once per person restriction of the staff by handing out spells to others. If he is only suggesting handing out spells to others so they can recharge other staves, then that's...acceptable.

But I wouldn't allow it the use of a scroll to cast spell casting contract as a permanent item. Or allow a permanent magic item to provide the effect of the spell either.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Claxon wrote:

I did misunderstand something last night when I originally posted.

If he is only suggesting handing out spells to others so they can recharge other staves, then that's...acceptable.

I'd agree, unless the staves being recharged are owned by a players other than the player using this to recharge it. For example: You own 3 staves and do 2 spell casting contracts and hand your buddies 2 staves and ask them to recharge them.

If you try to effectively get more than 1 of your staves recharged in a day, you will see table variance on the RAW limit of 1 staff per day.


Claxon wrote:

I did misunderstand something last night when I originally posted.

I thought kyrt was trying to bypass the once per person restriction of the staff by handing out spells to others. If he is only suggesting handing out spells to others so they can recharge other staves, then that's...acceptable.

Indeed, it's for bypassing the one stave recharged per caster requirement, by creating additional casters.

Quote:
But I wouldn't allow it the use of a scroll to cast spell casting contract as a permanent item. Or allow a permanent magic item to provide the effect of the spell either.

I can't imagine anyone blowing a spell so many levels higher than the relevant staff to actually use this trick in that case, but obviously your game is your call.

EDIT: thinking on it, I could see the church of Asmodeus charging significant markup because of the benefit adventurers can see from retaining their spell slot.

A flat 4k [double-price with a small 'sale discount' built in, planned from the start of course] seems appropriate.

James Risner wrote:
If you try to effectively get more than 1 of your staves recharged in a day, you will see table variance on the RAW limit of 1 staff per day.

How is a Staff tied to an 'owner' in any way? All I see in the text is that in the morning a spellcaster [who has at least one of the spells on the staff] can forgo one spell in the morning of the highest level the staff can cast in order to restore one charge. And he can only do this to one staff per day.

Spellcasting Contract turns non-casters into Contracted Casters which- by my reading- are fully capable of charging a staff so long as they meet the requirements.


I fully agree with Kyrt, here.

And I intend to use one of these spells once I'm high enough level to cast it. At 20th level, using a 9th level spell to get a +5 profane bonus on my saves (and incidentally on my AC) will be worth while. Simultaneously granting a non-caster in the party a 5th and lower level spells (which I am unlikely to need at all by that level) is a mere trifle.

The lower level versions are less useful and I will assess them when the opportunity arises.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

kyrt-ryder wrote:

How is a Staff tied to an 'owner' in any way?

by my reading- are fully capable of charging a staff so long as they meet the requirements.

I think you missed my point.

Can the RAW be read to agree with you? Absolutely.

Will you have the possibility of sitting at a table who doesn't read the RAW that way? Absolutely and he will feel the rules told him to stop you, so you saying "It is RAW" won't get you anywhere.

AKA
Table Variance.


I see, so when you're saying table variance in this case, you're less saying 'the rules are unclear' and more saying 'expect a fair number of GMs to houserule around this.'

Got it.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Change "house rule" to "interpret the rules" and you got it


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I did misunderstand something last night when I originally posted.

I thought kyrt was trying to bypass the once per person restriction of the staff by handing out spells to others. If he is only suggesting handing out spells to others so they can recharge other staves, then that's...acceptable.

Indeed, it's for bypassing the one stave recharged per caster requirement, by creating additional casters.

Quote:
But I wouldn't allow it the use of a scroll to cast spell casting contract as a permanent item. Or allow a permanent magic item to provide the effect of the spell either.

I can't imagine anyone blowing a spell so many levels higher than the relevant staff to actually use this trick in that case, but obviously your game is your call.

EDIT: thinking on it, I could see the church of Asmodeus charging significant markup because of the benefit adventurers can see from retaining their spell slot.

A flat 4k [double-price with a small 'sale discount' built in, planned from the start of course] seems appropriate.

James Risner wrote:
If you try to effectively get more than 1 of your staves recharged in a day, you will see table variance on the RAW limit of 1 staff per day.

How is a Staff tied to an 'owner' in any way? All I see in the text is that in the morning a spellcaster [who has at least one of the spells on the staff] can forgo one spell in the morning of the highest level the staff can cast in order to restore one charge. And he can only do this to one staff per day.

Spellcasting Contract turns non-casters into Contracted Casters which- by my reading- are fully capable of charging a staff so long as they meet the requirements.

Right, and I'm saying all that on purpose so that you can effectively recharge the staff in "combat" or days of successive combat and so that you can't use up all the charges in a single combat and try to have it restored to capacity the next day.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

kyrt-ryder wrote:
Spellcasting Contract turns non-casters into Contracted Casters which- by my reading- are fully capable of charging a staff so long as they meet the requirements.

Just to be clear, since you seem to be saying there is no validity to a RAW rejection, the line "when you prepare spells or regain spell slots" does not say "they prepare spells once a day".

So since they don't have a "prepare spells" period in the day if they don't have spell slots, then they can't prepare spells and during spell preparation recharge your staff.


The rule exploit here you should be arguing over isn't the recharging staves, it's the being able to use that staff!

Eg imbue underling with Breath of Life. Issue underling with staff containing Breath of Life, Freedom of Movement, etc. If it also has Heal in it, they can't recharge it but would be potentially even more use in combat.

However, by 19th level onwards, I don't think this is unbalanced.


You can't cast spells on a staff that you don't have access to unless you use Use Magic Device.

In most games you also don't get 'underlings' [especially underlings of 5HD or over] since most GMs aren't interested in dealing with Leadership, your best options are a Familiar or the party Martial.

Now one cool thing you can do is give the Contracted Person in question a staff that has one of their level 1 spells in it and a potent spell of the highest level they can cast. Opens up some more versatility to the Contractor in question if they have UMD.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

You can't cast spells on a staff that you don't have access to unless you use Use Magic Device.

In most games you also don't get 'underlings' [especially underlings of 5HD or over] since most GMs aren't interested in dealing with Leadership, your best options are a Familiar or the party Martial.

Now one cool thing you can do is give the Contracted Person in question a staff that has one of their level 1 spells in it and a potent spell of the highest level they can cast. Opens up some more versatility to the Contractor in question.

Without rechecking the rule, I think you can use any spell from a staff as long as one of it's spells is on your list.

EDIT: I checked and I'm wrong. And imbuing a non-caster with a spell doesn’t allow them to use any staff at all, not even with the spell they've been imbued with, since staffs use the spell trigger method which explicitly needs the spell to be castable by the wielder's class.
Oh well, feel free to resume arguing over recharging them.


Indeed different campaigns have different expectations in regards to availability of underlings.

You should look very very carefully at the rules and then search around the boards a bit in regards to casting staves. I've seen nothing contradicting the claim that staves are spell trigger items and each spell contained needs to be triggered by the appropriate spell or faked by UMD.


Ninja'd

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