Subscribed to Dragon Magazine for over a year, and loved Paizo through that. One day, I was using a less than reputable website to find a D&D 3.5 resource I had apparently lost, and saw: "Pathfinder DnD 3.75 pdf" and was like... Wait, what?
Knowing nothing of it (it had literally JUST came out), curiosity got the better of me. After scrolling through the first 50 or so pages...
"This is like 3.5 but WAY better! The art is sweet too and kinda familiar. (flips to specific page) ...and they even improved Fighters?! Who the heck made this?! (checks back cover) Paizo. That explains EVERYTHING!"
Within 30 minutes of stumbling upon the Pathfinder Core Rulebook for the first time, on accident, I was on Amazon ordering a copy. I didn't need to read more of that shady data. I could wait til it was in my hands! Never turned back.
Been with PF ever since, and still run 1e for friends and even some 2e for a few conventions, but as an always GM, the sad fact is that I only got to actually play non NPC characters a handful of times in all of 1e's lifespan, and most of those were short lived, so I still very much want to be a player in 1e to this day. LOL
Kineticist. To use weapons, go with aether for the element- you can launch those toothpicks hard enough to break through doors eventually, or just launch nearby boulders. Once you hit level seven (moreso level 11), you'll be doing less damage than other elements, but until then, it's good.
Oh man - go Geokinetic, and max out Disguise! Get enough burn, and you can pretend to be an Ioun Stone on another player!
I know, I know, it's ludicrous - but I just had to share that image.
That being said... Yeah, I think Kineticist might be a great option either way, as the damage doesn't rely on size, and could give you an interesting mix of things. Telekinetic would give lots of amusing options, though Geo would provide a variety of damage types and defenses. Though personally, I'd go with with either Air or Void. A super small gravity manipulator sounds like a lot of fun - but I'd have to resist naming them Singularity, or Sing to their friends.
Regarding OP's "Everything Burns" (all potential Pyros want something like this!);
I like this, but I was thinking more along the lines of the old Searing Spell Metamagic feat.
Specifically, I was thinking of a means that would not (under normal circumstances) be able to pair with Pure Flame.
Bypassing Res/Immunity AND SR seems like it would be too juicy.
What I spun was:
"Soulfire" Element: Fire; Type: Substance Infusion; Level: 6; Burn: 3
Prerequisite: Kineticist level 10th
Associated Blasts: Fire, Blue Flame, Magma, Plasma, Steam (other +Fire as revealed)
Drawing from the very origin of flame, your blasts take on a metaphysical quality, becoming far more intense than nature would allow. Seeming more maroon or even violet in color, these blasts flicker with an eerie light that illustrates well their unnatural state.
This blast ignores Fire Resistance. Creatures with the the Cold subtype take double damage (+100% rather than +50%). Even creatures with Fire Immunity still take half damage (1/4 on a successful save if allowed).
Also, while I'm here, I'll throw out couple that I really just want for flavor...
With finer manipulation of aether, you are able to strike more precisely. When using your Telekinetic Blast to throw a magical weapon, your blast benefits from any enhancement bonuses the weapon may have, as well as special qualities it may possess. You do not gain the weapon's base damage, nor it's threat range or critical hit multiplier. If this weapon has the Returning property, and was held before being used for this blast, it returns to you as normal for a Returning weapon.
By using a weapon as the focus for your Telekinetic Blast, the weapon can be further "animated" to fight in your stead at a distance. This Substance infusion allows you to use the full attack action with a blast infused weapon, at a maximum range equal to that of your blast (including any Form infusions that increase range). This blast acts in all other ways like Aether Juggling, except non-proficiency penalties apply when a weapon is used in this manner.
(I'm sure any of these could use some re-wording, but you get the ideas)
I too like the idea of burn, but not the actual mechanics.
-Burning one's own life cannot be the first resource of the class. It should exist but with a safe zone first. Self inflicted damage every day just to do your regular job sucks.
-At the end of "that battle" when every other option is down and things aren't going well, that's the moment to use burn. At exceptionally challenging battles, when everything seem lost. Then it should have some major effect, with greatly enhanced attack, defense and capacity. The cost should come later, as the strain takes it's toll.
-I can think of separating the mechanics: a normal reserve for limited powers, something like 3+Con or 1/2 level+Con for each day. Then the burn, a state of over-channeling where the kineticist could ignore the point costs of power, having enhanced power, speed and defense, by taking burn damage each round. Something like rage from the barbarian, but that can actually kill the user. That would feel awesome.
-Every other class can do it's job without self inflicted damage, the kineticist should have the same benefit. Extra stuff can be there with a cost, but not it's regular activities. Remember that the characters are made to resemble people, and it can't make sense to create whole masochistic class.
I want to agree with everything you're saying, but I keep rubber-banding with the stuff Mark's been dropping.
Per Heladriell's:
1) With ways to reduce burn starting at 1st level (Move Action), unless poor decisions are made, you probably won't burn much unless by choice. I see burn as basically opening yourself as a conduit to whatever element, which is taxing (non-lethal) but has rewards (FtB). I want to defend it more, but at later levels you really need that +Hit from FtB to land things... I'm really torn here.
2) The concept of taking the effect after battle isn't really that much different, unless you only get in one fight a day, because that burn effects carry into every other encounter that day. The notion of at least your first fight "catching up to you after the adrenaline has faded" is pretty cool, like the more you pull from the element the more it pulls back, but it would feel more like a thematic change rather than a mechanic change.
3) I don't think I'd like this class nearly as much if they operated on a points-per-day system, though possible lethal intensity of Rage DOES seem awesome... Maybe this sort of Over-Channeling could be tied into an Archetype, where they can go so far their life is actually at risk? Also, separating mechanics might eat more precious page space.
4) I think you lost me here. Considering you can use a move to eat a point of burn right from level 1, I don't feel like you're force-fed burn for regular activities. The class isn't masochistic - it's draining. How many examples can you think of where a hero with a cool power decides to over-charge at a tax to themselves for a dramatic effect? I can think of a lot myself. I think the "Every other class" is what really lost me though - while the whole bender feel is a huge lure, I like most that it isn't like every other class. I'd prefer to keep it that way so it feels more like a branch of its own rather than the bark on another.
Somewhat hypocritically to my comment on #4, here's a thought.
What if the Kineticist had a couple baseline things they could spend burn toward, similar to a Monk's Ki, built into the Burn mechanic?
By increasing the burn cost of a Kinetic Blast by 1, you gain a bonus to hit equal to 1/2 your Kineticist level (Min +1).
When you would receive damage from an energy type you can generate with a blast, as an immediate action, you may accept 1 burn to gain Resistance to that energy equal to 3x your Kineticist level for 1 round.
You may instead provide this benefit to an ally within 30ft, though doing so inflicts 2 burn instead. By readying a move action in anticipation of such an attack, you may reduce this burn cost by 1 (minimum 0).
The +Hit option would scale them nicely without being overpowering, making them reliable along all 20 levels.
By using the Kinetic Blast wording, this would be completely inapplicable to Kinetic Blade or Kinetic Fist, as to not break them, when they're thematically more for lower AC/Threat targets anyways.
Figure they'd have about +36 to hit once at Level 20 (+15 BAB, +10 for Burn Boost, +8 from Dex, +3 from Burn), which would be on-par with most Archer types.
You'd have a strong single hit, but Archers would still win in bulk (especially with Clustered Shots), and mages would still win the Area/Other game. This would feel like a comfortable in-between.
My only concern would be if my wish for an Aether Substance that allows you to use the thrown object's stats comes true... Then you'd stack on the +5 from a weapon, and break +40 to hit. (though still only 1 hit)
For the Resistance option - Would fit the flavor. Pyros could create a small rift in a fireball, Aeros could slightly bend a lightning bolt, etc.
This would also give Focused TKs something unique for their lack of a Kinetic Form option, in that they could gain very situational but awesome Force Resistance when they get access to their force blast.
The more I think about it, the more strongly I feel for +Hit/Resistance built into the Burn mechanic!
Ooooo~ Been a LONG time since I've done this.
Then again, last time I did, I used the Book of Vile - and was descriptive.
I'll leave that behind for this suggestion though. Some players squirmed... Memorable.
I absolutely backup music. Dark, creepy ambient played loud enough to hear, but quiet enough to be missed during play can have a chill-inducing effect. When I used it last, SomnambulentCorpseRadio was still on the air, and two of the four players actually begged me to turn it off because coupled with events/descriptions, it was "creeping me the **** out!" Just a casual search for an alternative for you, darkambientradio.de seems to be similar from what I've listened to these last ten minutes, if you can navigate to the stream (not hard but it appears to be in German).
Try and leave some disturbing illogical as absolute fact when describing events.:
If they pick it up subconsciously, it'll leave them uneasy without an explanation. If they do pick it up, you could consider Will saves vs. Shaken. (grin) One of my favorites:
"The room is finely carved and decorated, though it hasn't seen activity in ages. The windows are grown over with cobwebs, casting strange shadows over a tile floor of interlocking octagons, with fine oaken tables and once-rich red and gold drapery, long since faded. A table splintered from some sort of weapon strike is the only clue of what may have last happened here."
Three rooms later, the Fighter looked at me with confusion.
"Wait... Octagons can't interlock... right?" "Huh. That's right, isn't it? How about a Will save?"
Made the players almost afraid to notice things. Heh.
Creepy Carnies, of course!:
Another idea I used, was an older man in a town where people - mostly children - were dropping dead without apparent cause. The old man would whittle wooden toys for the children, to help take their minds off the darker days they endured. A kind old man with honest intentions.
Except they actually had a crazy good bluff check, and were hiding soul-trapping gems inside the toys (or other items if given to adults), with the implant seams sealed with mending magic, and auras hidden with other spells. He would then send his shadow minions to reclaim the gems containing souls, which he would then use for his own nefarious purposes and/or barter with outsiders.
Two men, one woman, and five children died while they chased their own hallucinatory leads - and after the fourth of these deaths, they were nearly panicking. Eight bodies after their arrival, one of them made the connection of the carved items in every home, a detail described in every scene without emphasis, and they confronted the old sorcerer and his elderly "wife" - an Erinyes in disguise.
Plot-Twist so hard, it breaks someone's neck - literally!:
Don't pull a punch if one of the characters dies... Or even consider actually killing one off on purpose. Keep an index card handy in your papers with all of the details for a ghost and/or other undead template, and after their character dies... hand them the card, which at the top says something like: "Unfortunately, for some reason, you soul cannot find rest... Welcome to your (undead type) existence." If another player thinks that player's state is somehow beneficial, and seeks their own death to obtain it? Just shrug and say you're sorry, they pass on just fine, and can roll for the baddies when something else is encountered~
This is particularly good when if players become complacent. Lets them keep acting, but dangles the notion of never finding peace over their head, which can be a deeply disturbing notion for many people.
Alternatively, create another character on your own with comparable ability of the party, and keep it aside. A local who wants to help or some-such. Then if a player dies - accidentally or on purpose - hand them the new sheet and explain;
"They're a local who wanted to help. You're them now, and I'd be more careful if I were you. I don't have another NPC I can hand out..."
That might spook them into extra caution as well, without really taking the wind out of their sails entirely.
Get creative with MAGIC!:
It's a one-shot, right? Well, spell research allows for the creation of new magic, that you won't necessarily need to keep around for future games. What about a spell that animates a living person's skin, leaving them a passenger in a puppet, like dominate but with a much shorter duration and no extra save for cause-defying actions? Maybe they could still talk through clenched teeth. After all, it's just the skin, not the muscle.
What about a zone, spell or natural like a wild magic field, that causes old wounds to rupture and pores to bleed? Something minor, like 1 point of bleed damage a round you remain within it, but there's something in the area they NEED. Magic healing doesn't stop it - healed wounds rupture again next round. Don't be afraid to describe it in a way that helps them realize how disturbing it is. If you've played the dead-PC card from above already, this scenario can be extra worrying.
Glass statue with key inside stomach area, bleeds when broken = Fun with Polymorph Any Object.
Change facts and stories for effect.:
Just because you learn something is true, doesn't mean it always will be.
Maybe some event happens that is very disturbing, and at first everyone is aware of it... but people begin to forget about it... until the PCs are the only ones who can remember anything about it.
Move things. Change the environment. Most can be logically explained pre or post by illusion magic, but the trick is to present it in a way that logical actions aren't the first to mind.
"I swear there was a door here... Wait... There isn't ANY door to this shack! Where did it go? How do you get in? (sound of knocking against a door and someone pleading for help, as if the door was on the underside of the building and somebody had been buried with it) G-guys? I'm not the only one hearing this, right?"
(based on how your players are taking things in... he might be...
Aim the commoners right at them.:
Major villains should be callous and methodical. Assuming the party is collectively with good intentions - say they show up to help. The locals are very please by this, and totally support them - until clues implying their involvement start showing up in their belongings... or falling out of their pouches/pockets...
Commoners aren't know for their rationality and intelligence. Maybe they'd turn on the party, who still wants to help resolve this, but doesn't want to hurt commoners. Moral conflict of interests.
Or if you're convincing enough... Lay it out in such a fashion that one or all of them start to think: "Wait - did... did we do this? I'm being deadly serious right now. Could we have done this?!"
If you like them, you're more than free to use'em, as they've run their course through my local group~ But I would be interested to know how yours reacted!
Hope this helps - it's a lot of text.
PS) Still listening to the station, and I still think it'll work well.
This post is too heavy for me to follow... So I'll just leave this here and walk away~
I find that even if a player "really deserves it", I never need to punish them. They'll do it for me, and then blame me for it.
The best example is the juggernaut mentality: They get to an encounter that was never meant to be a fight, charge in, die, and complain that I put them up against something unreasonable and throw a fit.
Usually, if you try to explain to the same person that it wasn't meant to be combat encounter, or that monsters aren't born to bleed XP, they'll argue "That's stupid!" or "But I'm a (class)!"
Am I the only one, as a GM, that wonders where self preservation has gone in the minds of players?
I'm guessing MMO type games are the leading culprit, though really anything with a respawn/reload option is at fault.
Players forget that fighting isn't the only option - or that they can retreat if needed, depending on the foe.
So many people value their total scores and combat ability over character depth, that it actually depresses me sometimes.
I've never been a book reader, but D&D (then Pathfinder) is what gave me my love for a deep story, and the ability to see one through.
These are the types of people who often "deserve punishment".
They are also the type of people who, given a world filled with creatures of varying power, will eventually punish themselves.
I've been a DM since I was thirteen (will be 31 in a few months).
I very rarely get to play, which makes me very sad...
My background is in Illustration / Character Design & Development.
The plus side is I often end up with NPCs the characters love.
The downside, is I rarely ever get to actually play any of my ideas out. ;-;
I have a friend who's actually part of a gaming company that runs stuff at many conventions, and he's running a game now I get to play in.
He even let me go with a far-out notion: Half Dragon (Brass) Aasimar Paladin (Holy Light / Defender), child of a celestial dragon and an archon, who requested being banished to earth for his 300th birthday. He got sick of watching heroes cut down before their moment of glory by villains with foul tactics, and desires to protect the would-be champions of the world while they achieve their destinies. If people remember him more than the other party members, he feels he has failed.
I love this character dearly, when the story was more serious, but the player count has since dropped due to life issues.
Since it has become very hack-and-slashy, which doesn't contribute to a rich story element we had before, sadly.
As a DM in the party, I find it hard to bite my tongue sometimes, but it's never about condescension.
The guy I'm playing under has been running since 1st edition, but he still has gaps in his Pathfinder knowledge.
More often than not, I find myself involuntarily correcting certain situations, such as the difference in Cleave between 3.5 and Pathfinder.
(I don't have power attack - the fighter does - I'm totally defensive and intervening)
I always feel crappy for doing it, but he always seems thankful because he doesn't know the system entirely yet...
But I always worry that this habit will result in me someday stepping beyond my role.
There are two games I run, alternating weekly.
One game has a guy who reads every line of every resource in every book, and though never having run a game himself, he feels the constant need to chime in with: "I thought..." and "Actually...", often answering questions posed to me as the GM, before I can. In fairness, he's right 2/3 the time, but it's that last time that is irritating, because then the newer players (for 3 of the 5 it's their first Pathfinder game) keep remembering his false information, and it's a retraining effort. It gets worse that he talks out of character at game, a LOT.
"Normally these things are resistant to attacks that aren't..."
Then the new players start acting on that knowledge, because they're new, and confronted with the situation, "Oh, this won't work because..." based on knowledge they don't actually have. The funniest thing about this scenario, is despite his excessive knowledge and frequent (if not minor) slips of meta, he's not a rules lawyer. He doesn't min-max, or twink, or optimize... He does what he feels is right for his characters, and that gets a lot of respect from me, but his attempts to "help" often do more harm, and it seems impossible to break him of this habit.
In the other game, one of the players is the GM that taught ME how to play way back in 2nd. He's actually surprisingly tame about it. In fact, the prior game I ran with him in it lasted nearly 7 years, and ended about 8 years ago. He still talks with pride about his character, but he's far less of a problem than the player who has never run. I find this crazy ironic. Rather than assuming something is possible, he'll come up with the idea, then ask me: "Here's what I want to try. Is this possible?" - you know he's got a theory of how it can work, but he's very respectful of the fact that I might not agree with the method.
So the former DM is actually far less of a problem than the player who must read everything... Kind of ironic.
Personally, I wish he'd just stop reading all the damn books if he's not going to run something.
What reason does a player have to read through an entire Bestiary, cover to cover, let alone all three of them?
I had this issue with him back in 3.5 as well, when books had sections specifically for DMs in them.
He'd read ALL of that, which would make any attempt for me to actually use something from those sections totally worthless if he was in the game, because there was no surprise.
"Why would you read the GM section too?" I'd ask. "I own the book, so I wanted to read it. What's the problem?" He'd reply, to which I'd sigh.
I'm frequently having to create custom monsters and encounters, just so he can't be an involuntary pain in the ass. He's actually a nice guy, just accidentally annoying.
As a DM moving to player space, though, my biggest problem is the depth of the characters I create. A lot of random GMs don't put the depth into their combined campaign as I put into some of my characters... Which isn't meant to be demeaning, so much as to imply that the others I know who might run a game often go for a simple or light story theme, rather than a muti-tiered event world, where they're actively gauging what the player's choices change. This leaves me feeling that the character might be wasted on the scenario, which IS condescending on my part. Leaves me with an apprehension. Most of my ideas require a GM that's capable of getting waist-deep in story, and it's a gamble.
Personally, I have a really hard time playing simple character, like:
"Jim, the fighter that fights. I wanna fight stronger and stronger things, and be a total bad-ass!"
Totally can NOT play a character that simple.
Feels like a waste of time from my personal point of view.
I dodge the GM/Player switch hit issues, in that there are very few house rules we use, unless dipping back and allowing 3.5 resources into the Pathfinder game, but even then with my circle it's a shared consensus, which I guess I'm pretty lucky to have.
In the cases of 3.5 integration, I've personally gone through and done revision on almost all of the classes to bring them up to Pathfinder standards (though not prestige classes), except for the Diamond Mind school from Tome of Battle (still deciding how to handle it), and the Magic of Incarnum classes (cringing is understandable). I'm lucky the local group agrees with the updates.
Then again, my local group isn't... big?
There's like maybe 14 if us total, broken over 3 groups.
Whenever a conflict does occur, it can usually be settled with an evil eye, or a reminder that questioning the GM is a poor decision~
So I have an idea for a character I want to try.
In my mind, the story, the feel, everything is awesome.
But now comes the hard part - building the individual.
Essentially, it's a samurai of sorts, decisive, with a mystical flair.
On one hand, a Fighter going the weapon-master route would be a great choice, due to the brutal certainty of their weapon strikes. One swing could do a massive amount of damage, and end the fight in a single blow, which is great for what I have in mind.
On the other hand, the Samurai alternate for Cavalier, with the Sword Saint archetype seems almost perfect for it. Not to mention the feel of granting Shaken or Deafened by striking off a quick-draw is pretty awesome, and the challenge ability adds a lot of flavor to the mix.
The first is brute-force with more options (feats), whereas the second is more flavor with fewer options. Both are really good, and I'm bouncing back and forth between them, but there's still one issue:
Both of them provide armor proficiencies.
For the image in my mind, this is bothersome.
Dipping back to 3.5, I can find a number of options that trade out armor proficiencies for other benefits, essentially getting some other type of AC bonus without wearing armor (Int to AC, Wis to AC, Natural Armor, etc).
I'm hoping there is some trade-out available in a strictly Pathfinder sense to achieve the same thing. I just can't see the character wearing armor, but for a melee sort, losing the AC entirely would be a terrible decision.
Is there a trade-out, officially, for up to heavy armor?
(Without multi-classing)
This is a difficult one without theoretically shafting the party, but I had a similar issue pre-Pathfinder. The cleric eventually snapped at the party and insulted their intelligence in the process - "I'm a warrior of my god, not a magical bandaid! I'm capable of tending to wounds after battles, or during in the case of extreme injuries, but I'm not running a nursery for children playing with knives! Sharpen your wits and stop leaving yourselves so open to attack, before my god decides you're not worth healing anymore..."
While that is pretty harsh, I've ran (and been in) a few games with a large number of players where the divine guy felt like a nurse with patients that pressed the button for fun.
If you can think of a tactful way to say it, I'd go with suggesting a more tactical mindset. While the Fighter and Barbarian might be in their comfort zones cutting a path through minions, diving-head first into a pool of goblins isn't always the best idea. Make the enemies come to you if you can. I'm assuming the Rouge isn't diving in head-first too... If they are, that's added stress - possibly total defense into flanking position, then letting loose? People at range (ranger/wizard, sorc, witch) could try to make use of environmental concealment or cover if/when it's available (again this assumes they don't).
Smarter combat can often lead to fewer wounds and less healing, but sometimes the dice are just against you. Making use of an area buff or two at the start with smart tactics could leave you open more often to do what you want, with a selective divine channel in the mix. Melee could also try to be a defensive wall until the sorc and ranger thin the crowds a bit, then tear open the remainder?
Sorry that I can't offer any suggestions outside tactical things...
Last game I was in had no healer, so that's my combat mindset. :)
Hopefully you can find a solution before your Cleric snaps, and tells them to do it themselves... Heh.
