I suppose we do disagree, because the action economy is inherent to the alchemical items. You can't separate the action economy from their use and say that, once you do, they're actually good. An alchemist's fire is, for all intents and purposes, as Paizo created it, a two action consumable. To make it "good" the Alchemist essentially has to be designed to ignore everything that the alchemist's fire is and turn it into a ranged strike. It doesn't compete with other two action abilities. It competes with one action abilities insofar as they're inexhaustible, but bombs aren't. The fact that the Alchemist can't use a bomb any better than anyone else without at least one feat that does nothing more than shore up a problem inherent to the bomb is just icing on the cake. When you add on feat taxes, accuracy issues, and the other pain points of getting party members to actually use alchemical items, Alchemists' reliance on them as printed becomes even worse.
My players have never looked at a mutagen and considered it to be an attractive purchase. I don't have players ever buying grenades not just because they're expensive but they also don't get you anything for that expense beyond what a regular runed weapon can except maybe the chance to spend two actions targeting a weakness (potentially after an action identifying it). Poisons fail constantly and their DCs are almost immediately outpaced by monster Fort saves. Elixirs are maybe the closest to being useful, but a lot of what they do can either be replicated by spell slots/scrolls/wands or, again, they aren't worth the cost (money and actions) for a consumable. A cost that is intrinsic to the design.
But yes, we do agree that alchemical items are broken because "they're a subsystem that's not really accessible to anyone else", and they're not accessible to anyone else because of how they're designed. They aren't worthwhile to any class, most of whom can rely on their class features and skills pretty well, or niche situations where you're shopping for a specific magic item to figure out a specific adventure wrinkle.
So at that point, if only the Alchemist is using them, why even have this weak facade of an item system that in theory anyone can use but in practice only the Alchemist has to use because they have no alternative?
I made a homebrew a while ago since Alchemist was my favorite 1e class (next to Witch and Occultist), but still couldn't convince any players to make one.
I mostly tried to push the feats more, make the specializations more impactful, add in focus point functionality, and include a rarity of item exclusive to Alchemists to basically make an Alchemist "spell list" like 1e.
Really, ultimately, I think I just wish they'd push the design back towards the 1e approach of not having the Alchemist's power tied to items anyone else can buy. That's what makes this class so fundamentally difficult, in my mind, because it's not self-contained and is basically coming pre-nerfed because its abilities are items, and items (as Paizo designs them) need to be weaker than class abilities. I think we're too far gone at this point, though.
Eh, that's of pretty minimal utility and is subject to wild table variation. I'd rather not rely on my GM playing a certain way and just have an ability that does things.
I like the suggestions! I also agree with getting out of the Reactive Strike space. It seems like they might be designing these abilities to be actions on the player's turn with transcendence frequency limit, but I wonder if that's too limiting and clunky.
If the abilities are balanced appropriately I don't see much issue with a rotation that lets me plop my spark onto the body ikon and have the chance to use a reaction transcendance ability on it. If I don't do the transcendence reaction I still either need an action to put it on weapon or worn, or else just keep it on body.
But for this one specifically it's kinda weird that it's the only actually offensive ability for body (Reactive Strike is still a strike, fascination is more utility than offense). A reaction to increase AC against an attack, then to fit the super sight/Neo speed idea maybe if the extra armor causes the attack to miss you get to make a step, or get quickened for the next turn?
Blind Fight as a level 1 feature could also be pretty potent, and at least it'd be sorta similar to Starlight Span's focus spell.
Immanence Your vision sharpens and allows you to sense an enemy's attack almost as soon as it begins, granting you a +1 status bonus to Perception checks and a +2 status bonus to your AC against ranged attacks.
Transcend--A Moment Unending (A) You take in every movement around you, allowing you to react to things you ordinarily couldn't. You gain the Reactive Strike feat until the beginning of your next turn.
I've seen a lot of chatter around this one and figured a thread might be nice to have.
Personally, this one's not my favorite for a few reasons, mostly related to the Transcend ability:
(1) Using an action to get the chance to use a reaction at the very least feels awkward;
(2) Actually, a lot of times it isn't just the one action, it's got setup beyond that to make sure you have your spark in the body ikon (either using another transcend ability, which precludes using GSaS this turn, or using an action to put your spark into the body ikon);
(3) There's an opportunity cost to using this, because if you do you're not using your worn or weapon transcend that turn;
(4) You can get Reactive Strike as a level 6 ability--I'm not sure you can retrain out of a body ikon, so a better version of this action comes at level 6 unless you're really thrilled about the +1 perception (nice)and +2 AC vs ranged (situational);
(5) Getting Reactive-Strike-but-kinda-worse is already a thing Thaumaturge gets with their weapon implement. This class is already sort of doing its own items of power thing, so I'm wondering if there's just more design space that could be utilized here;
(6) Obviously we don't have every ability that'll go live and they want feedback on what we have, but this having no interaction with ranged weapons is kind of a bummer. There's no real precision build possible with this.
I like the concept of super-duper eyes. I'm wondering, though, if it would be better to take Reactive Strike out of the equation and do something else. Other body ikons are defense-oriented, and the immanence ability of this one is all about having such good vision that things sorta move in slow motion--maybe there's something there?
I like the legendary equipment angle. Occultist was probably my favorite 1e class, next to Alchemist, so I like item classes. I think that's a fun part of the mythos for a lot of these characters, and it presents some fun storytelling possibilities right out the gate. Attachment to items is a not-insignificant part of the TTRPG genre, and there are some emergent gameplay moments that can come from losing access to items or being reliant on them.
On the other hand, I think there should be at least the option for the Exemplar to be an Exemplar regardless of the items in their possession. I can see that as part of the appeal: your character with a divine spark can manifest that regardless of whether they're wearing Nike or Converse. I also feel like thematically it starts to edge a bit into Thaumaturge implement territory as a class focused on items of power. I'm also sympathetic to the ideas that are out of the ordinary, especially since we've got so many funky ancestries nowadays, and the opportunity to make new legends that don't fit traditional narratives.
Ultimately, mechanically, I suppose the only thing really changing if specific items aren't required is that you won't have those rare times in a campaign where your character doesn't have access to those items. I'd probably prefer that people have the flexibility to pick how their Exemplar's power is expressed, whether that's items, chakras, tattoos, etc. But also it's a Rare class--you're already chatting with your GM, and I think I'd be pretty flexible with a player who wanted to bend the specific items to suit their idea.
In my initial review I mentioned this too, and I agree completely. My group did some Animist and Exemplar builds-by-committee just for fun, and the very first thing my players wanted was an archer with a mighty bow. As we went through the options they kept going "That's kinda cool, but doesn't work with a bow build..." until we eventually ran out of options.
Granted, there'll be more in the full release, but I think if this class is going to be Make-a-Myth, the weapon ikons should be able to accommodate just about every general martial playstyle. Notably absent for me was the precise archer (players thought the AoE was cool but they wanted a shoot the wings off a fly kind of archer) or precision character generally. Just like how you can make a Fighter that has some support for every fighting style, this thing kinda needs to be a blank canvas for me to make a myth with.
In support of that, I think I'd also really like if the worn ikons did more than just give out auras. Support abilities, fine, that's what the slot does, but it'd be nice if the worn slot weren't simply the aura slot. However those abilities work.
I was hoping this would be the type of thing that would be addressed in the Remaster. Warpriest being more than just a proficiency difference from Cloistered Cleric, for example. Every feature should have some element of excitement, especially when it's a feature you pick.
When I build a Channeler I want a bunch of little doodads that make my feature of swapping apparitions that much more interesting as I level. That's why I picked Channeler in the first place, rather than Sage or whatever else Animistic Practice final release has. If there's nothing synergistic with my selection as I level, then it begs the question: why have any distinct progression, why not just give me the ability and call it good?
I'm partial to Channeler doing the hotswap thing and getting some bonuses to healing and damage spells (using), Sage doing something that reflects using the collected wisdom of the apparitions they've communed with (cooperating), and a third Animistic Practice that leans more heavily into maintaining a single primary apparition each day (surrendering). Those feel to me like three distinct relationships with the spirits, if we're going to have these Animistic Practices at all.
As others have said, the spirits make it unique. The whole spirit package: rotating feats, focus spells, sets of spontaneous spells, and other abilities. The Divine list is the last thing I'd focus on here, it just sorta fills in around all the other stuff.
That said, I do think its core proficiency progression should be the same regardless of Animistic Practice, and the practices should just be nice-to-haves that let a particular Animist focus a bit more on one aspect of their class. Ideally for me these would be more like a Druid Order rather than a Barbarian Instinct, but as is following the Cleric Doctrine route they're sort of the worst of both worlds.
I'd also like to see them get another set of higher level focus spells for each apparition (unlocked with a feat would be fine) and for there to be some way to have a character that gets rewarded for really focusing on one spirit for the day. Even though versaility is the baseline hook for the class, I'd like to be able to see a real payoff from specialization that differentiates one Animist from another--still emphasizing versatility, but focusing a little more on one aspect of that versatility.
About gunslinger/inventor uncommon trait. They are there for a more practical reason that's explain that theses classes are more rare in Avistan region due the lack of availability of firearms and "technological" trinkets there (even with firearms being available in almost the rest of the world).
Uhhh you link to my feedback post but I'm not being restrictive "with no good reason." I'm not being restrictive at all, I talked about the discussion I had with my players about the playtest document. I'd kindly ask you leave me out of your anti-rare tag crusade here.
I'd let any player I currently play with roll an Exemplar, but I'd want them to engage with it a little more than just "here's my guy he fights." I'd ask the same of a Champion or Cleric, that they do some homework on their deity, edicts, and anathema. I already do the same for Gunslingers and Inventors since I run games in Golarion, and these things usually have specific regions and backgrounds, and not just anyone simply has a gun in Golarion.
I do have people I've played with in the past I probably wouldn't give the go-ahead to, because they'd 100% take the themes of the class and be insufferable about it. There are also campaigns I've run in the past where the theme of the class wouldn't fit--it's pretty high fantasy stuff, and sometimes I like to run grittier or low fantasy games.
It's a tool to empower GMs. That's it. I'd bet most tables it doesn't even matter.
- A Moment Unending (Gaze Sharp as Steel ikon) doesn't really seem to be a very beneficial ability. Using an action to hope you get to use a reaction is kind of awkward, particularly because it's a Transcend ability and you have to spend an action on your NEXT turn to put your spark somewhere.
Transcend abilities automatically immedaitely put your spark somewhere, you don't need to spend an extra action on that.
True, but if I wanted to reactive strike again I'd need to spend an action (maybe doing another transcendence ability, but still) to put it back into the body ikon, then an action to activate it again. A turn later if I use another transcendence ability.
Too much: The various boons being basic proficiency boosts depending on which Animistic Practice you pick takes up a lot of space but it isn't exciting at all (and it's unnecessarily granular). It also doesn't really make sense--why is a Channeler better at Fortitude saves than a Sage? What's the hook there? It makes sense for a Warpriest to have a slightly different progression (and even this I find awkward), but I'm not feeling the justification here. This could definitely be a more flavorful and exciting ability rather than a basic progression math adjustment, and all Animists could just get the same proficiency progression.
Not enough: Having just two Animistic Practices seems like there's a lot of potential being left out by only having two, while the baseline abilities that Sage gets are so weak I'm not sure why I would ever pick that. Channeler seems close to there, in that it seems to guide you towards a lot of blasting and healing, and swapping primary apparitions in combat was already something my players were thinking about combos for. Hotswapping spirits is cool, and there should definitely be more focus spells for the spirits as you level. Sage seems like it could be oriented more towards something else entirely, with a third Medium Animistic Practice that does the "invite a spirit to possess you in exchange for power" thing.
Medium could, I dunno, bar refocus primary apparition swapping altogether in exchange for a stronger connection with the spirit. More abilities or passive effects at the cost of the versatility of swapping. Fold in Soul Synchronization baseline and/or give each apparition type a specific buff that they lend to the Medium as the primary apparition. Similar to the spirit bonuses and seance boons from 1e.
Sage could lean into the lore aspects of the class (which makes more sense for the name). It'd be cool to have a version of a beat-you-with-Recall Knowledge class that uses Wisdom, maybe giving the Sage bonuses to Recall Knowledge and some additional Aid abilities, passing around advice from the spirits they commune with to party members like a flavor of Bard.
***Also just want to note that Steward of Stone and Fire and Custodian of Groves and Gardens both give wall spells at level 1. Maybe that's intentional, but it's kiiiiinda boring if you want to go blaster/healer, like Channeler seems to encourage.
The Palisade Bangles seem like they're the "shield" ikon, but a specific weapon ikon that enhances shield bashing would be pretty cool.
OP says 'nough said, but what exactly do folks want from a shield hero? Shield bashing? Shielding allies? What's different from this concept than a shield specialized Fighter or Champion?
Read through last night and again today. Did a read through with a couple players and we did some brainstorming building Exemplars by committee.
TL;DR - The flavor is great, the base mechanics (ikons, immanence, feats) are pretty solid, and the power level actually seems pretty good. There are some "classic" heroic concepts that aren't quite served by the class as presented in the playtest, however.
The Good
- Flavor is very fun. There was a lot of discussion about the Rare tag, and everyone agreed that it's a good thing to have on the class. Not from a mechanical perspective (it seems pretty balanced overall), but where we landed was that you really do need to have a character that engages with the world and the specific campaign story to make the class really special. If you want to just be a kid who picked up a sword to go on an adventure, probably be a fighter. Putting aside more egotistical narratives, the class really wants you to think about every bit and bob of your character's backstory and future, which is fun but probably daunting for many players. I would probably have players who want to play an Exemplar write me a quick memo going through the stages of their particular character's Hero's Journey--where they started, where they're going, looking for and defining those moments of heroism, etc.
- The proficiencies on the whole respect that this is a martial class (with the exception of no medium armor). Great! Sometimes that's not the case in playtests.
- The actual mechanic of immanence and transcendence abilities looks pretty dynamic. Lots of cool options. One player said it seemed a little bit like a superhero tool belt. I think the rhythm of picking which ikon to empower and whether to use the transcendence ability or not gives this class a lot of interesting choices round to round. Very happy with that (and it's similar to a divine barbarian "Avatar" class I homebrewed for 1e!). Can't overemphasize how much I like a class with so many little things it can fill a turn with beyond striding and striking at level 1.
- One player noted that there are some baseline abilities they were surprised were possible at low level, and that they were refreshingly outside the box for abilities that can be used all the time, like Rain of Seven Lights or Captivating Charm.
- Thrown weapon support is great! Overdue.
The Hmm
- One player was trying pretty hard to make a cunning sniper type Exemplar with a bow and was finding very little support for a longer ranged character. Auras being 15 feet on worn ikons was limiting, and Fated Shot being the only ranged weapon ikon (and giving an AoE transcendence ability) also didn't really appeal to them. I don't really think that's the thrust of this class, but I did think that a weapon ikon somewhere along the lines of this could work: piercing weapon; adds 1d4 precision damage for immanence; 2-action transcend to attack with a true strike fortune effect. Would also be a different way to do a classic spear hero too.
- We were unclear on Strike, Breathe, Rend (Noble Branch ikon). It seems like one action, deal weapon damage, but "damage equal to your weapon damage dice" made some wonder if "number of weapon damage dice" was intended.
- No Scar but This (Scar of the Survivor ikon) probably should have a requirement on how often it can be used, otherwise it's just free heal to full outside of combat.
- A Moment Unending (Gaze Sharp as Steel ikon) doesn't really seem to be a very beneficial ability. Using an action to hope you get to use a reaction is kind of awkward, particularly because it's a Transcend ability and you have to spend an action on your NEXT turn to put your spark somewhere. Probably would be better if it were just a reaction like a normal Reactive Strike--it'd be similarly limited like the Thaumaturge's weapon implement that I don't think it would overstep. Cool flavor though.
- No 1st level feat is understandable but kinda weird for a "martial". I get it--there's a lot going on at level 1--but even Kineticist gets a feat and they're stacked at 1st level.
The Meh
- No medium armor proficiency is really hard to square with not only the theme of the class, but also makes the attribute spread for a Str-based Exemplar pretty static. It's odd to have the Animist in the same playtest with medium proficiency, while the martial class that can draw on (among others) Achilles or Thor or Beowulf doesn't have it. I suspect the Palisade Bangles are meant to sort of kind of fill in here, but those aren't always active, and it shouldn't be the case that you need to spend your worn ikon just to have armor on par with another Str-based martial if you decide to spring for +4 Str to start.
- Hard to say since I don't know how spirit damage will pan out in the remaster, but it's not great to get a typed damage at 5th when other classes get untyped damage. Pros and cons, but I think most of the time I'd rather just get a straight damage bonus than sometimes getting a bonus on things weak to spirit, sometimes getting my extra damage negated. Especially since a lot of weapon ikons are giving spirit damage already anyways and I'd be triggering that weakness regardless.
- Root Epithets have the clause that trains in a different skill if already trained, but I'd also let the player choose if they want to upgrade the skill to expert. It's a divine spark empowering your bravery or cunning, etc.--I think it's ok to let a class with 2 + Int trained skills get one bonus expert skill.
- Some of the names of abilities are a little long. I'm down for the themes, and I'm also down for the thought behind it, but some more concise terms might be helpful for when people are actually talking about how their abilities work. Small thing though.
- A larger discussion, but even with Humble Strikes it's hard to justify going for a simple weapon over a martial weapon outside of flavor. Flavor is fun, and there are edge cases like longspear vs. halberd (spear crit spec is arguably better than polearm), but most of the time the martial version of a weapon is just strictly better. I don't know the solution, just that it'd be great for there to be more reasons to pick simple even when I have the option to go with martial, and maybe this class could push that just a little further?
That just highlights how little a Str Exemplar gets for its troubles.
Barbarians get their full, medium armor AC all the time. Then they can opt into more damage, temp hp, and other abilities, while still having stats to shift around for intimidation, to bolster their Con, or whatever they want.
I think the distinction between prepared and spontaneous works. It's actually pretty much the spellcasting style that I wanted for the Witch class.
A newer player would definitely have a lot to keep track of, but I don't think I'd recommend this to a newer player. If they did go ahead with one it's pretty straightforward how the casting works: for prepared you pick from the Divine list and pop them on your prepared column for the day. Your spontaneous column is the spells from these spirits, cast them however you want.
Actually not having to deal with Signature Spells makes it kinda less complicated. Can't tell you how many times I've had to go over those rules with players.
I don't think you can really avoid the armor math. There are of course people who will pick the stat array and armor that doesn't max out, but everyone at my tables will go with the highest AC they can get. That means Exemplar, right now, is a Dex KAS, finesse weapon class.
Also, thematically, it doesn't make much sense to me to not have medium armor here. A gleaming breastplate is primo mythic status. There's even an Achilles' Heel ability and uhh the dude's legendary for his armor. It's a whole thing.
The really important thing for me here is that I think Exemplar wants to either be Str or Dex and let the other one languish a bit, because if you put all of your boosts into Str and Dex just to have a passable AC you lose out on a lot of fun builds that focus on Cha for cunning/charismatic but strong warriors (Maui), or the potential for a Thor-like figure that has the wiggle room to take a Druid dedication at level 2.
Again, without medium armor you could allocate these other ability scores for a bigger variety of builds, but not if you want to be a Str Exemplar with good AC.
I see no reason to take the Sage path right now. It's pretty much DoA for me, actually.
Even if Apparition's Possession were a generic "avert gaze" type of action, these types of effects just aren't so telegraphed that a character could preemptively spend an action to avoid them. And where they are that's usually a very very very specific monster (i.e., one known for it, not just one that happens to have a command spell handy), and waaaaaay too specific for a level 1 feature. Level 1 features are the ones players use consistently and base their builds around--you can do that with Channeler, but not really with Sage (unless you're like seeking out lower level sirens to fight or something?)
The effect feels more like a rider bonus than a button you press and go "Ooooh yeah" like Rage, or Hunt Prey. I can see pretty much every player at my tables looking at this and asking how they're supposed to know when to use it. or forgetting they have it. Apparition's Possession should be doing something I want to do one or more times every combat, like Channeler. It's a super cool idea and I'd love to see some mechanical heft to it that works with the rest of the class' moment-to-moment gameplay.
Maybe instead of a feat, the baseline could be picking one of the bonuses from Soul Synchronization when you use AP? Maybe each apparition can have a listed bonus if it's your primary apparition and you use AP? Like maybe Stalker in Darkened Boughs gives a bonus to Survival and Stealth, while Witness to Ancient Battles gives crit specialization or a bonus to Athletics. That could be pretty cool, especially given the ability to refocus and pick a different primary. That feels like the Medium to me.
Note that despite the preponderance of "nature spirits" the primal tradition does not interact with spiritual essence (it's material+vital).
Making "spirits: the class" a primal spellcaster would be weird.
Divine magic is also the intersection of the spirit and life essences, and the animist is, themself, an intersection of those two things. They give life to their apparitions, and their apparitions act as links to spiritual powers and realms. They're a type of divinity that exists separately from gods but achieving the same types of power through the union of the animist and their apparitions, with the two halves forming a whole that can channel and wield the same type of power as that bestowed by deities.
It's very much just as much of a "religious" class as the cleric, but that religion is one that exists on a level equal to but different from the ones built around gods, since it recognizes the divinity that exists when a mortal being can act as a bridge for spirits, alchemizing their two energies into divine magic.
It's been a second since I read through my copy of SoM, but is there something fundamental to Divine magic that requires a link between some kind of mortal and a spiritual power? Like deities have power but when they act through mortals it manifests as Divine magic? Or is it just a metaphysical pool of energy that deities draw from and can bestow to their worshippers, and the Animist taps into that same pool?
What would have made this an Occult class (which would be my first impression) rather than Divine? In my mind Occult is much more associated with communing with spirits that exist outside the normal live-die-go-see-Pharasma loop, while Divine deals more with the various outsiders and their planes.
EdIt: Also, the descriptions in the class all make it seem like a Charisma class. What's the distinction between Charisma and Wisdom that's drawing this class towards Wisdom?
I didn't read all of this but my own homebrew has some things I'd love to see:
1. Rare alchemical recipes that Alchemists automatically get access to and provide more magical-adjacent effects, like the P1e Alchemist. This allows for items that can't just be bought by anyone, represents the Alchemist's superior ability or their tinkering with recipes, and just makes the items more fun. Right now a lot of items seems sort of milquetoast, maybe because they have to be balanced around being a thing anyone could go buy;
2. Using focus points as a way to give some character to builds while also limiting how often these abilities can be used. For example, a pest form focus point elixir that can only turn the alchemist into insects and adds the aberration trait (with further feats in a chain, so you can go full Jeff Goldblum);
3. Tighter mechanical packages and feat lines for the different research fields. They're sort of halfway there right now, but things like Bombers getting to add their Int to bomb damage by default and Chirurgeons getting a focus ability to "launch" elixirs at range. That sort of thing.
Mostly I just want them to tap into that P1e Alchemist spirit. I think the way they did alchemical items has really hampered that, and I'd like to see some of those wild options and cool experimental abilities come back.
Like others, I've probably written a dissertation on why I dislike the P2e Witch at this point. It's my biggest disappointment in the system, next to Alchemist.
I've homebrewed it for my table, with the quick and dirty being:
1. Remove pick-a-list. Witches are Occult prepared casters.
2. Phase Familiar becomes a level 1 feat rather than automatic (though its power budget could be seen as negligible), Witches get the equivalent of Basic Lesson at level 1, with the feat itself still being an option at level 2. Some lessons have been modified.
3. Patrons are redesigned like Cleric domains. They grant a Patron Skill, a Patron Skill Feat (mostly minor things like Terrain Expertise or Student of the Canon), and a bonus spell at each spell level matching their theme. The spells are largely chosen from other traditions. These spells can be cast in bonus spell slots that the witch gets for each spell level. For example, Baba Yaga gets chilling spray at 1st but also gets cast into time as a 6th level bonus spell to reflect the differences between it and the Winter Patron. The idea here is that the Patron brings a full suite of abilities that let them provide a thematic core for the Witch on top of Occult casting regardless of the bonus spells' tradition while still allowing for the Patron to be whatever the player wants (devil, dragon, fae, etc.). Spell slots are still 2 + bonus slot.
4. Hex Cantrips have been buffed and reworked where appropriate, with better heightened scaling on many. For example, evil eye is largely the same but adds scaling d4 mental damage if the target is affected by a misfortune effect while the hex is sustained.
5. More than one hex can be cast a turn.
6. A bunch of feats have been modified to be actually attractive over the higher level Lessons. I didn't give out the Lesson feats for free because I wanted that to be a thematic choice to expand spellcasting and hexes rather than automatic, with other feats offering strong alternatives.
7. "Order Explorer" feat allowing Witches to choose other hex cantrips from other Patrons as desired.
Because it's my table I don't officially homebrew familiar stuff, just make reasonable rulings to let people have fun with them. But familiars should be addressed officially.
Paizo does seem kind of wary of using focus points.
Like they have this pretty simple, modular system that is really useful for game design. It's basically just the concept of "cooldowns" in point form, and it fundamentally works the same way across classes. Once you understand it for one character it works the same way on your next character.
Maybe you don't want to give Fighters or Rogues or whatever focus points, because they're sort of reserved for spell-like abilities--fair enough. But Kineticist seems like the kind of class that could reconceptualize 1e Burn into focus abilities because a lot of what it's doing is spell-like.
Drained does screw your day, but other than the Fort save penalty it functions the same as 1e Burn for the health loss.
Edit: I think? I never played one but it reads like it couldn't be healed.
Yeah burn in 1e basically reduced your max hp. Say you had 100 hp and took 20 burn (i.e. nonlethal damage): you go unconscious if you take 80 damage, because 20 nonlethal got knocked off your max.
Drained could work because it's tidy, but I don't think in P2e you would want to have a burn mechanic that lasts all day. Either you'd "refocus" the Drained condition away or it would only last 2 rounds or something. You don't heal the hp back from Drained when you lose the condition, so you'd still have to heal to be back at full strength.
Knock-on effects are that the Kineticist's party would have to wait around to heal if the Kineticist takes on like 3 points of Drained during a fight (if it lasts until refocusing), and reducing Fort saves can be a doozy which isn't the same as burn in 1e. On the other hand, if it isn't permanent then it's hard for people to feel screwed for the rest of the day if they do too much.
I'm partial to "burn" being taking on Drained 1 until refocusing. When you refocus you clear out all the Drained from Kineticist abilities (and still need to heal up). Then by default you can, as a free action once per turn, take on Drained 1 to either gather your element or not expend your element on an overflow ability. Then it's just an action economy booster, not necessary for people who dislike the mechanic, and it toys with Con as a KAS.
Spitballing here, and not expecting it to even really be considered, but maybe it could also be interesting to have a table of passive effects for each element which you gain the more investment into an element you have? Like an effect for having 1 feat for an element, then an effect for having 3 feats, then 5, etc.
So if you specialize you get two passive effects for that element right off the bat. Using OP's example, say you went earth: at level 1 you also get tremorsense 5' if your element is gathered and a +1 bonus against attempts to move you. Or maybe you have 10 water feats and now you always count as having your element gathered as long as you're standing in terrain with water in it, and you have a swim speed, breath underwater, etc. etc.
Universalist is tricky. Maybe it just has its own set of scaling abilities regardless of element, plus the more minor ones you'd end up with.
But I do like the idea that a higher level Kineticist is sort of floating by virtue of being a master of air, or becomes naturally implacable and attuned to the ground around them just because they're a master of earth. It'd also probably save some feat space for the more passive abilities that are flavorful but not necessarily more attractive than a combat feat, and you'd end up with Kineticists playing very differently without much more than the odd small bonus here and there.
Old burn was fraught. I think burn as a sort of replacement for focus points wouldn't be too bad here, though.
Others have mentioned drained, and I think the option to take on drained 1 when you use an overflow ability instead of expending your element (then remove 1 point of drained with 10 minutes of downtime) would work. That way you really just get an action economy boost by taking on burn, it's optional and means you have to "reload" more often if you don't want to reduce your hp pool until the next time you can refocus.
Folks who want to push themselves to the edge can do back to back overflow abilities, but could run into trouble if they can't take time to rest. Folks who don't like using hp as a resource don't need to, but it becomes almost risk-free if you use it once in a fight where you know you'll have time to rest afterwards.
If you need 18 Con to make your abilities stick and 16 Dex or Str to actually hit things, then you really have very little left over to set your character apart from other Kineticists.
Maybe MAD is the wrong term, but I dislike when the classes that want to be martial/half-martial and don't have a physical KAS don't plug the KAS into a lot of their basic class features. We keep getting this in playtests, and you'd think this would have been solved after Investigator.
If it's not a caster and it doesn't have the option to take Str or Dex as a KAS, then that non-physical KAS needs to somehow fill in for the lack of either Str or Dex, whether it's accuracy, or damage, or AC, or whatever.
Overall looks fine, but I'm concerned about this being a Con KAS class that focused on one type of attack and doesn't start as an expert in that. The elemental blasts are literally the raison d'être of playing this class in the same vein as shooting a gun is the reason you pick up Gunslinger. The progression should, I think, look pretty much identical to Gunslinger (i.e. faster advancement in "elemental strikes" while other advancement is slower).
Alchemists are trained in "alchemical bombs." I think it's ok to make these elemental strikes a category of weapon and let the Kineticist have fun with them.
Key Ability Score
I was pretty vocal about this in the Thaumaturge playtest, but if we're going to get a martial class without casting that doesn't have Str or Dex as the KAS, then it needs to be a KAS that is very justified and plugs in all over the place in the class. It's honestly kind of baffling to me that after all this time we'd get another playtest where the class doesn't interact with its KAS at all.
Con for damage? Sure! Con for hit? Less excited about that, but also... Sure! But if Con is just class DC and hp, with no kind of "burn" mechanic or whatever, then Con doesn't justify itself, and the class becomes very MAD.
To be clear, I'm ok with Con as a KAS, but it needs to feel like this martial is a one-stop-shop with an 18 Con.
Gates
I like that you can pick one or more elements from the get-go. Universal seems a bit weak, and like it should maybe get a predetermined "Universalist" feat. Being able to channel multiple elements is great, but it's a big opportunity cost to lose two upgrades at level 1, in my opinion.
Gather Element
Seems fine. It's basically an elemental "reload" and a bit like a stance, in some ways. My first thought here is that if this has the manipulate trait, then the actual elemental blast itself shouldn't have the manipulate trait--probably remove this from "impulse" and just tack manipulate onto the things that need it.
Adapt Element
Seems pretty weak. Free prestidigitation but it's just sort of... there. Later levels it seems fine as a free thing, but I'd like to see a bunch of feats that let you upgrade and play with this more.
Extract Element
Fine, built-in way to try to bypass immunities is great. I think a failure should remove the clause about effects lasting only as long as you have the element gathered, though.
Feats
All told pretty decent. Some really fun flavorful stuff
Overflow
As is it mostly acts as a sort of pseudo-panache. Which is fine, I suppose, but this highlights an issue I have with the Con KAS: this would have been an opportunity to play more with the "burn" mechanic that the 1e Kineticist had. Drained is already a thing, and having the Kineticist take on drained 1 every time they overflow (in exchange for big effects) seems like a pretty easy 1:1 translation. Then allow the Kineticist to reduce their drained value by 1 with 10 minutes of downtime.
I think if we're going to have a class with a trait called "overflow", which channels raw elemental power through its mortal body, and which has other people "worr[ied] you will consume yourself with elemental magic, or lose control of its primal forces", it should feel like you can build towards riding the lightning a bit.
I think Psychic captured this really well with Unleash Psyche. I think Kineticist could meet Psychic and Oracle in the middle: let players freely push their Kineticist past its limits if they want.
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Overall, looks promising. The flavor is there and the basics seem workable, but it needs to embrace true martial proficiency for its elemental strikes and embrace the Con KAS so it can actually deliver on kickass elemental blasts. I want to feel like playing this class I can get to that knife's edge. Going supernova doesn't have to be pure damage dice, but things like advanced combat maneuvers, flurries of elemental attacks, more spell-like effects, etc.
I don't mind firearms, though I think mostly there have been some missed opportunities with the design space:
1. No martial magazine weapons;
2. Almost no mechanical overlap with Inventor in the same book (if anyone is doing wild things like rifling a barrel or creating lever actions it's the Inventor);
3. Scatter and kickback weapons just not giving much of an up close and personal vanguard type.
Understanding that page space is always a consideration, it'd be cool to eventually get a supplement of some sort to really drive home the feeling of ceaseless tinkering and improvement that the lore tries to put out there.
Maybe something like a more punishing Kickback that comes into play if you want to fire both at once, like 15 Str, but firing each barrel individually there's no penalty. On top of making it martial and lowering the range. Then reload each barrel individually.
Or it could be a modified Repeating weapon with Kickback that can fire both barrels in one action. Repeating I think has a built-in action economy of 3 actions to reload regardless. This seems kinda janky though.
I think more feats and innovations specifically for ranged Inventors would be fun as well. Like a repeating or capacity innovation for a reload weapon at level 1 would definitely feel like this Inventor person has a wild contraption from the get-go. Or at least double barrel.
Light Criticism:
It feels sometimes like the Gears section and the Guns section are actually two physically separate books, rather than two "books" in the same copy. You've got these traits like double barrel and capacity which you can't even put on an invention in the same book. There's even the injection trait that I don't think shows up anywhere for the Inventor. Changing damage types or being able to fold up and hide my crazy weapon invention is pretty boring. I don't think Inventor needs to be able to make every weapon a reach weapon or whatever, but yeesh. Give me some more wacky ideas to toy with.
The Explosive Leap feat already kinda does the grapple gun, sorta, but movement abilities is a fun thing to expand on. I think this could be a good place to expand the armor innovation a bit, since it already does movement speed but is kind of taken up by resistances. An unstable feat that lets your armor innovation levitate (not fly) would be really cool, same with a suction cup/magnet/just-punching-your-power-suit-into-the-wall spider climb.
Constructs seem pretty solid, but also more combat actions for them. I think some Star Wars robutt-type construct feats would be rad as well, turn your construct into a universal translator, or give it more powerful trapfinder or disable device abilities. I've also recently gotten to use Alchemical Golems and that idea of multiple alchemical substances sloshing around inside of them is pretty cool; fill up your construct with an alchemist fire and it can add it to a melee attack before it needs to be refilled, etc.
Think it's pretty weak. Range is fine, but two actions and poor scaling make it fairly lackluster compared to other playtest implements, beyond even just the lack of interaction with other features. It's pretty bland and feels uninspired.
I'd prefer if it had a variable action activity to be sort of a swiss army knife utility belt implement, rather than just a Wand of Blasting. At the very least it seems like a good opportunity to give the class some AoE firepower from the get-go. Still think focus points that are trapped inside implements would help crack open a lot of design space too.
I also don't think traditions quite fit. I like the Thaumaturge existing in the sort of liminal space between traditions and essences, makes them seem much more "esoteric." They make their own rules.
I also loved the 1e Occultist but didn't 100% vibe with the implements being tied to schools of magic. Kinda felt too Wizard-adjacent. The way the implements are flavored now does it for me though, and I'd prefer that were iterated on instead. This way, too, you can get into some weird or sort of philosophical combinations, like a Crown not just representing social authority but also dominion over your domain, etc. that might not cleanly match up with the four traditions or essences.
Wizard with an M16 was literally hyperbole, yes. It's a rhetorical device. I used it purposefully to illustrate a point.
Highschool debate aside, I've read Mark's post. I commented in it. I think it's a cool idea. The idea of Esotery is a cornerstone of the class, yes. I don't think the damage of Esoteric Antithesis is the cornerstone of the class. That is, I think the damage could be something else, and the power budgeted to the damage could be put somewhere else, while the ability itself becomes a more general buff or debuff. Indeed, we already have Empower Implement which provides even more flat damage boosts.
Many people have talked about using conditions or other effects to represent anathema. I think that's a cool idea. Custom weaknesses also seem cool, but I think they'd be more interesting as part of an implement rather than just Roll to Rage. Then there's some opportunity cost, ideally when compared with implements that have a lot of interesting and potent versatility.
I relish disagreement, but my argument was that the mechanical damage seems to warp the thematic concept of the Thaumaturge, and shifting the damage to something else might allow some breathing room (and the OP comments on this as well). I believe a Wizard with an M16 offers a similar--indeed, hyperbolic!--example.
See, my feeling is that the damage from Esoteric Antithesis being perceived as a cornerstone of the playtest class is just a result of it being a nuclear bomb.
It's like if somehow TTRPGs never had a Wizard class, then they came out with a playtest for this cool Wizard concept. It has a book full of spells that it studies, it focuses on a particular school of magic of the "Arcane" tradition, can eventually do things like teleport or fly... Oh, and they all come with an M16. Which shoot magic bullets. People would think that the magic bullet M16 was critical to the class, it represents all the magical and offensive capabilities of the Wizard concept! Mechanically, though, it's... an M16.
To me custom weaknesses seem like the perfect trait for an implement, maybe a bag that is inexplicably always filled with strange anathema. It doesn't feel to me like "monster hunter" is what the playtest Thaumaturge is trying to be overall, as a whole class, it's just the first draft of the Basic Combat Ability non-casters get.
A more general buff/debuff that primes things and empowers Implements and class feats seems like it opens up space to capture more flavor than just burning goblins with soap, and interacting with Implements could mean that two level 1 Thaumaturges with different Implements could approach problems in very different ways. Then once the second Implement comes online they really start to open up their wide toolbox of powerful objects, strange but potent esoterica, and the ability to tailor their skillset to solve a bunch of problems in ways that a Rogue or Investigator can't.
Yep, I'm all for a toolbox approach. Damage can come from interactions with specific implements or just Implement's Empowerment. Sign me up for a martial that does weird stuff in combat beyond whacking things super hard.
I've also mentioned that changing Esoteric Antithesis to something that can apply to in- and out-of-combat situations starts to really crystalize the whole idea of convincing the universe in my mind. Instead of just identifying a creature and smacking the bajeezus out of it, the Thaumaturge in some ways attempts to read the underlying stitches between the places where they find themselves and the things therein. Then they have a growing suite of options that they can deploy to get in there and convince the universe that things are different.
Then, of course, Implements and class feats can really switch up what happens and how the Thaumaturge interacts with the world in unique ways.
Weaponizing your luck to get a circumstance bonus thanks to having the appropriate trinket does sound like CHA after all.
Yeah, I think targeted/weaponized luck is kind of a cool area to explore.
Because they don't fit into a defined tradition of magic and most of their power comes from these seemingly random bits and bobs, someone else might see the Thaumaturge's various bonuses as luck, when in reality the Thaumaturge (and we) know that they're actually making changes to the world around them purely by focusing their will through these objects.
It's kind of a cool way to pin down part of the class theme too: Others think you're just lucky and odd, even though you prattle on about these weird (and sometimes... gross...) objects. You know that finding just the place for these lost and forgotten puzzle pieces can bring along great, albeit temporary, power.
Tangent:
I've been enamored with the idea of "resonance." The Thaumaturge carries around "lost objects," stuff that doesn't fit anywhere, but which they carry around because these things represent something writ large. When they come across a problem they can identify something that resonates with the creature, the situation, or the obstacle. Then they can convince the universe that this item that doesn't quite have its "place" actually fits into the Astral-Plane-Universal-Memory right here, doing this thing, and this is the missing jigsaw piece.
Nevermind that the mug handle of a Caydenite priest's favorite tankard has nothing to do with balancing on a tightrope suspended over a pool of lava. The Thaumaturge has convinced the universe that it can absorb the wavers in the Thaumaturge's balance, resonating with the fuzzy feeling and stumbling that the Caydenite enjoyed so much through this tankard handle.
I don't even think [the mechanic now known as Find Flaws/Esoteric Antithesis] needs to necessarily only apply to creatures. This is a class that's convincing the universe, right? The universe isn't just critters. Once you remove a huge, raw damage boost I think it can really start to open up the themes of the class to the mechanics players need to actually contribute to an adventure.
Maybe it could also be the Thaumaturge identifying weak points in the fabric of the universe, or areas where they can exploit some pseudonatural power, or reconciling the fear of being lost in the desert with the hardiness of desert life. The ability can give various, or broad, bonuses to the Thaumaturge to help them navigate all aspects of the adventure.
The Investigator already has something that wants a lot of GM fiat (for better or worse), so perhaps by targeting a "situation" or an obstacle the Thaumaturge can convince the universe (GM) that they need... a +1 to Survival to get out of the haunted forest, or maybe the chasm is actually a few inches narrower for a +1 to jump across. Maybe a feat or ability (as mentioned by Ediwir in his playtest post) to convince the universe that this finger of a master thief is just the thing to unlock this door or deactivate this trap.
The examples are definitely rough and ready above, but I think limiting the mechanic to creatures and especially limiting it to a somewhat warping damage bonus really hampers the play space that the class description is trying to evoke. The Thaumaturge may be a person with a bunch of kooky artifacts and half the time seem to be making s%!$ up, but when it comes down to it their bag of tricks seems... to work...
I agree with most of the main post, and have voiced many of the same concerns. I actually had a chance to playtest over the weekend, and the results were pretty similar. One thing that stood out:
Ediwir wrote:
I have ran a few different playtest games as both gm and player, as well as poking a few of my regular groups for their own playtest experiences, and the short end of it was... all thaumaturges play essentially the same, no matter how they're built, and while they are extremely valid martial characters, they do not act like the fantasy of them appear to suggest.
This seems to be about my experience. Although I haven't run multiple playtests, I did draft up a bunch of different statblocks and think about how that character would handle different situations, and they all seemed to be funneled the same direction. Or, at least, none of them went a direction that a Fighter with high Cha couldn't go, outside of getting some free minor talismans (which I think should be baseline or an Implement, like a Bag of Esoteric Things that can be empowered to do the bonus damage/weakness thing EA does now).
I think whatever the FF/EA mechanic turns out to be, it should take a backseat to the Implements. It should be a through line for the class, where you want to use it on a variety of situations like how an Investigator is On the Case and a bunch of things cascade out from there. But when you sit down with your Lantern Thaumaturge, it should play differently and approach things differently than an Amulet Thaumaturge. And those Implements should be empowered in different ways by the "FF/EA" ability, whatever it is, to accentuate or support that role.
This is an 8hp class. It's explicitly non-magical. It needs interesting things to do and robust, modular actions that show it convincing the universe to bend, not just tell me that it's convincing the universe. What it does should make up for never having spellcasting or skill increases every level or a powerful companion or excellent combat feats. Honestly, I think the focus point mechanic is one of the more interesting things P2e does, and ignoring that entirely is a big mistake for a class that uses implements of power which could store your focus points and get a bit of that 1e Occultist flavor, while also expanding the types of activities the class can do. Maybe it is a nonmagical person, but each implement could get one focus point with its own refocus activity to show that they are coaxing the power out of these strange artifacts.
Things like that just need to be plugged in here. There don't need to be these self-imposed design restrictions, and I'm firmly in the camp that Implements need to be the driving mechanic.
Quick Example:
Edit: Maybe a short, rough example here to show what I've been thinking of.
Take an as-yet unmade Crown implement. It's some kind of thing you put on your head. The Crown resonates with lingering authority, and with authority comes dominion.
- Passively, the Crown grants you a +1 status bonus on checks made to Make an Impression or Coerce and once per day if you get a critical failure to MaI or Coerce, you can turn it into a failure instead.
-Against the target of your [FF/EA], it becomes a +1 status bonus to all of your effects with the Linguistic trait and checks made to climb, swim, or balance, and Survival checks made to Sense Direction. A living target can understand you as if you spoke a language they have.
- By spending the focus point locked within the Crown, you harness the dominion over your domain implied by the item, and can gain a swim/climb speed, a +10 status bonus to speed, or darkvision for 1 minute.
I think it could pretty easily be moved away from a raw, nuclear bonus to damage. I think that actually ends up limiting it pretty severely in the long run.
For example, it could be something that you spend an action to initiate (I've mentioned the Thaumaturge finding something that "resonates" with the target) that gives you a bonus on recall knowledge, baseline, plus some other effect governed by your implements, which also have their own abilities that you can take advantage of against everything, not just your target. It's very Rangery, but right now it also kind of is anyways, and an action to "prime" a target I think can offer some interesting dynamics.
Your Weapon implement could by default offer some free-ish rune effects to target weaknesses and resistances, then get AoO when you prime the target. Wand could be a fair ranged attack at all times, but when it's near a target that it "resonates" with it also offers a bunch of ranged combat tricks like pushing or tripping or disabling magic auras. Maybe even focus spell-like effects that need time to recharge? Who can say...
The Bag of Weakness Stuff could be its own implement that gives you X free talismans every day and offers the nice weakness damage boost when you FF a target. A feat could let you put a magic circle around your FF target once per day to trap it, forcing it to make a will save to attack. Another could banish an outsider in a way completely divorced from traditional magic, shunting it into the nether by whacking it with an object that is somehow irresistable anathema.
I think that's infinitely more engaging than "bigass damage boost," and can still retain a lot of the flavor while interacting more closely and more meaningfully with the particular implement you've chosen. So no, I don't think the idea needs to disappear, but I don't think this current iteration is very interesting or dynamic. It's just a dumb strong damage boost and warps things around it cuz you gotta get that dpr.
Hell, you could expand the mechanic with class feats to things like thievery checks to disable traps or unlock doors. "Ahh, this spring is made of Iobarian steel made from ore mined by [particular group of people]. Hang on, I should have something that can crack it..." Or even expand to situations, like a ratty old piece of oilcloth that happened to be worn by a famous general during a difficult campaign where it rained almost every day to resist elements or get a swim speed (maybe a feat like Summoner's eidolon evolution ability).
I think Find Flaws/Esoteric Antithesis is about as subtle as a bazooka, and about as explosive. Even if the flavor is cool it almost certainly takes up a big portion of the power budget, then you add Implement's Empowerment and the class is adding a hefty amount of bonus damage to attacks. It's pretty much Roll for Rage, and it leans the class towards feeling like a monster hunter. It's also ultimately just a big boring flat damage boost, though nothing else in the playtest class actually interacts with FF/EA in any way, so it's not like you're getting extra attacks against the target of your FF/EA, or you're extra good at hitting it, or you're able to demoralize it when you hit it, or anything. Just math.
Some musings:
It reminds me of Venture Bros., Jefferson Twilight, who is the third part of The Triad which consists of a powerful necromancer, Dr. Orpheus, another powerful magic user, The Alchemist, and then Jefferson Twilight. Who hunts vampires. But only one very specific type of vampire. All of his powers are related to hunting that one specific type of vampire, but he's otherwise nonmagical, and the magical threats that The Triad faces he's pretty much useless against.
Except here, for a "monster hunter," the Thaumaturge doesn't have anything that helps them against the target of their "hunt." They're explicitly non-magical, so they're left with combat feats like a Fighter or Barbarian and combat actions, which are also pretty much nonexistant. To stop a demon from teleporting away they need to take feats to actually be able to use a scroll to prevent it, much like any other martial could by taking a caster dedication. They're unlikely to have many points to spend to pump up their perception, or skill points to take Survival, so they have to hope that they stumble into their quarry or it doesn't try to evade them.
They also have martial progression but a mental key ability score, which nothing else but FF/EA in their entire class keys off of (except the Wand implement) and which means they're behind even the Investigator in hitting for half of the campaign. This means that they desperately have to pump up either Str or Dex right after Cha in order to have a chance of unloading their FF/EA into something. But they can't sacrifice any Cha, really, or else it makes it that much harder to get the monumental damage boost that their class seems balanced around, which leaves precious little remaining for other stats. They aren't good at using bows with FF/EA and get no advantage with them anyways, and so unless they took the Wand when they had the opportunity their ability to fight things that are flying or far away is pretty much a dexterous Bard with a crossbow, except the Bard would probably just use telekinetic projectile or cast a spell while buffing the party.
Outside of combat, again, the Thaumaturge is spread thin on stats. They're pretty limited, because they don't have much leftover to boost up Int. A Fighter can go 100% Str, put a point into Dex, and then use all of their remaining ability boosts for whatever they please. A Magus might need to pump up Str/Dex and Int, but what do they get from Int? Casting! Or, if they choose not to go with Int, they can buff themselves and just ditch the +X to their cantrip Spellstrikes, but they still have everything. Thaumaturge can't ditch Cha, because otherwise they can't actually FF/EA because their RK check is based off Cha. So being skillful and useful outside of combat that way is rocky.
Without any spells or magical abilities they're pretty limited in how they overcome obstacles without skills. Even the Alchemist can brew up some mutagens or elixirs on the fly (and target specific weaknesses as well or better than the Thaumaturge!) and since they like Int anyways they've got a bunch of skill points. You could make a magic circle and interrogate something that let you make a magic circle around it for a minute. I guess. Or cast a 1st-level illusion once per day and host parties eternally. YMMV.
Ultimately the class seems to revolve around FF/EA giving them a big boost to damage, similarly to how Barbarian revolves around Rage. If not explicitly, it's hard to ignore. It seems like a lot of what's going on is balanced with FF/EA looming in the background. Problem is, nothing seems to work with it, and as a whole everything starts to feel pretty superficial to me. My concern is that FF/EA and the cool flavorful idea underpinning it isn't a great fit--in this particular iteration--with Occultist 2e. It's wrapped up in a lot of mechanical baggage with other systems (Recall Knowledge, resistances, targeting weakness normally, stat arrays, etc.). While the idea of using odd items to shellack a monster is cool and in theory matches up with implements of power, the way it plays out is you just... Get a bonus to damage. There's nothing else "monster hunter" about the class. A big turbo-boost to damage just turns on, or it doesn't, and there's nothing else next to it, and there's no actual interplay with the implements or any features (such as they are) in any way.
If it's a skill that's based off your KAS, has built-in progression, doesn't work like other skills of the same type, and is used for only one thing... Why not just use class proficiency/class DC? Why fiddle with such a narrow skill at all?
I mean, I agree the class could use more feats and options to enable some of those ideas.
That's why I said it felt spread thin though. There's a bunch of little things to do, but not a lot of follow-up. A lot of superficial abilities, one of which just happens to load up an admittedly nice damage boost.
"Admittedly Nice" is an understatement for how strong it is. It's an enormous DPR increase, especially when compared to the other "mark a target it to hit it harder" martial (Ranger).
Yeah, I mean, it's Universe Rage. It's very potent.
I mean, I agree the class could use more feats and options to enable some of those ideas.
That's why I said it felt spread thin though. There's a bunch of little things to do, but not a lot of follow-up. A lot of superficial abilities, one of which just happens to load up an admittedly nice damage boost.
John R. wrote:
Puna'chong wrote:
I can't convince the universe to unlock a door, or protect me from the elements, or leap into the fray, or prevent a demon from teleporting away. All I can convince it to do is help me smack something hard, provided I don't already have what it's weak against.
I'd love to be wrong!
Personally, my answer to these problems is Scroll Esoterica.
Sure, I could also take a caster dedication. But I can't craft the scrolls myself. Odds are I have a bad Int so my Crafting isn't great, and I can't cast the spells anyways. Gotta go buy them or ask someone else to make them (or cast the spell on my dinky crafting).
I don't really get the "too much at once" thing. It has a pretty standard spread of abilities that all are part of a similar thematic portfolio.
Plus we already have a slayer class. It's pulling upon esoterica that makes the Thaumaturge stand out and why it's important to keep that part of the identity instead of simply gutting it.
Where's my customization for FW/EA? Where are the feats adjusting it? Nothing plays with implements, the class is explicitly without focus spells, no subclasses, only one mental KAS so it's all down to my other stats, implement choice, and class feats to direct my character. If I pick lantern what am I doing at level 1? Smacking things and recalling knowledge. That's pretty much it. No focus spell to throw at things, no other use for my 18 Cha besides dpr unless I take electric arc from an ancestry feat, no other customization. Just me and my lantern against the world.
Forgive me if I think it's spread thin and trying to do too many things at once. I don't see the depth. I can't convince the universe to unlock a door, or protect me from the elements, or leap into the fray, or prevent a demon from teleporting away. All I can convince it to do is help me smack something hard, provided I don't already have what it's weak against.
And this is the slayer class? Where's my stuff that lets me track down monsters, throw their true name at them, interrogate enemies to find my quarry? What if it flies away from me? I'm kinda out of options. I could throw my lantern at it. Just a big bonus to damage doesn't feel like a Monster Hunter to me.
I suppose what I'm starting to feel is that I want an Occultist class with implements and a Slayer class that has an option for the esoteric anathema (and an Inquisitor subclass based on Wis with judgments). I want both of those to have really rich options for their schtick: nonmagical implement user, and monster hunter. They're both compelling, but I feel like they're fighting for space.
It's seeming like we're going to get something trying to do too much at once, without a lot of depth. I've rolled up what I plan to use for a playtest after about ten iterations, so we'll see.
At some point it feels like some people in this thread are just looking for an entirely different class, which seems a bit beyond the purview of this playtest.
Fair, but it isn't a bad discussion to have to narrow down what the class really needs to be.
At the end of the day, for example, the Occultist was The Implements class. They basically had a toolkit power pool. You could build them different ways but the core of a person using items of power was there.
Here I think the Thaumaturge is a bit muddled because of FW/EA and implements. They're both sort of competing for space and identity. Implements are pretty agnostic, the theme is whatever you decide to build. FW/EA pushes the class towards feeling like the monster hunter, which is arguably space the Inquisitor would fill if they make one. It also sort of starts to feel Investigatory and Rangery with the descriptions, and then I think it falls apart for some folks.
For my money, implements is the core of the class, but I want Occultist 2e and I recognize that. I need to be sold more on FW/EA, and right now it feels like it takes up a lot of bandwidth as it's currently implemented.
