Pierce Coady's page

Thanks for doing this Neil, Sean, and Clark. The feedback is greatly appreciated by everyone in the community.

Torc of the Ironwood Huntress
Aura strong transmutation; CL 9th
Slot neck; Price 45,000 gp; Weight 3 lbs.
Description
This thick braided torc is a weave of woody vines, leaves, and moss bound at either end with the snarling head of a mountain lion carved from ironwood and is designed to be worn around the neck of a druid’s animal companion.

Once per day a druid can have their animal companion activate the torc by emitting the command sound (roar, bark, screech, etc.) by making a Handle Animal check as a free action. The DC for this check is 10 if the animal companion knows the trick perform and 25 if they do not. A successful activation of the item transforms the body of the animal companion into living ironwood for eight minutes.

The animal companion receives a +6 enhancement bonus to their Strength and a -6 reduction to Dexterity (to a minimum Dexterity score of 1). While still a living creature, the animal companion gains the special abilities (damage reduction 5/adamantine, construct traits, immunity to magic) and weaknesses of a wood golem (vulnerability to fire and spells that affect wood), see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary.

In dire need, the torc can be activated for a second time during a given day. The druid must immediately pass a Wild Empathy check of DC 35 or the animal companion becomes disenchanted with the changes the druid has wrought and quits travelling with the druid. If the companion leaves, the druid cannot summon another for at least one month after she seeks atonement for her actions.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, ironbody, a piece of ironwood Cost 22,500 gp

EDIT: I just read Sean's post re: submitting items from previous years that had been publicly posted for feedback. An earlier version of this was posted in the self-rejected thread last year. I hope that didn't get it automatically rejected. I'm not sure how I missed that rule but it was there to easily find so the fault was mine.

I have to say that I want both the Jalmeray/Vudran module from Goodall AND the Dream Dimension module from Groves but since I can vote only for one I ultimately chose.....

Cult of the Ebon Destroyers by Matt Goodall

I DM so that my friends and I can pretend to be other people in other worlds. Yes my players wont pronounce the names right, yes I will have to learn more about Indian/Sri Lankan mythology to make myself comfortable running the module but Jalmeray is so soaked in context and setting history that it cant help but make for a memorable place to adventure within. I have consistently voted for Watcher throughout the competition as his work has really spoken to me. Unfortunately, my own group has done enough planar hopping lately that it didn't have the same freshness Matt's proposal did.

Congrats to all of the finalists and I really hope to see everyone's freelance work from Paizo in the near future.

Lots of great submissions but these four won my votes.

Matthew McGee - Ossuary Golem
Jim Groves - Skintaker
Benjamin Bruck - Chymick
Chris Mortika - Lantern Thrall

Good luck to all! Looking forward to round #3.

Azmahel put on his Helm of the Judgernaut and reviewed a boatload of items...

Azmahel,

What you did there was amazing. Thanks for being part of the great community on these boards and thanks for your perspectives. I am going to try and get to reviewing some items this weekend and return the favor since people were kind enough to comment on my own but I doubt that I will come close to getting as many done as you already have. I dub thee Judgernaut-in-Training.

Pierce

Pierce Coady wrote:

Well poo. Thanks for the honest feeback Clark. Between Harryhausen and Moorcock's Corum books you hit directly on the inspiration for the item. Unfortunately I obviously crossed the line from homage to uninspired copycat.

Anyone else see anything additional that I can learn from on the mechanics side? Price? Crafting components? Was the mechanical description tight enough to avoid a lot of argument at the table?

You know, I'll give you this--you picked an awesome source of inspiration and I applaud you for that. I love the scene in Jason and the Argonauts where the bad guy throws down the bones and up come the skellies. Its a classic fantasy moment. Its hard for us to judge items that come, in our view, from such a clear source of inspiration. I love the item. But its hard for us to reward that as Superstar, if you see what I mean.

Well my architecture professors always said to steal ideas from the very best and Harryhausen was that. :)

I appreciate your insight and if you, Wes or Sean have anything else that you have time and opportunity to offer towards the mechanics of the item I would be grateful to hear them but I know this can be a long and arduous process for you so I won't expect any additional attention when there are so many others looking for feedback as well.

What is asked... is given.

Pierce, this is a well written submission. My main issue with the item lies with the replacement of skeletons. This could easily get annoying / confusing for the Player whose PC owns it. I know I wouldn't want write-ups for 5 different skeletons.

I also think it should be without a slot. Not everyone will wear this around their neck.

I can see your point regarding the no slot issue. I compared the price with the Horn of Valhalla which if memory serves is no slot as well. So either I should follow suit or I could reduce the price alleviating some of Reckless' concerns in an earlier post. Hmmm, have to think on that one a bit.

I agree bookkeeping could be an issue. In retrospect maybe the biggest one and one I didn't even consider. Poor design on my part there.

Pierce Coady wrote:

Well poo. Thanks for the honest feeback Clark. Between Harryhausen and Moorcock's Corum books you hit directly on the inspiration for the item. Unfortunately I obviously crossed the line from homage to uninspired copycat.

To be fair, I think there also was a timing issue involved, since the most recent adventure path book I've read has a Jason & the Argonauts style skellington dragon-tooth monster in it.

Really? Well that would be bad timing. The only AP I have run is Second Darkness and we are only half way through that.

Carved Finger Bones of Obligation

Just a few comments:
At 47K+ gold, this item is pretty much available to 11th level pcs and 18th level npcs. The ability to summon 5 skeletons every three days is not at all impressive.

I don't think Channel Negative Energy should be a requirement if you already have animate dead and control undead in there.

Do the skeleton(s) have to solo kill a creature, or just land the killing blow? Does that 11th level character then have the ability to go find the biggest fingered creature he can find and knock it unconscious and have the skeletons finish it off so he can have potentially useful creatures to defend himself? If so, why aren't the skeletons in the bag already this larger type, since any 11th lvl PC or 18th lvl PC worth their salt is going to do this upon finding the bag full of weak creatures, and the effect is permanent.

Thanks for taking the time to offer your critique Reckless. I sincerely appreciate it.

I agree the price and effect feel out of balance but it it seemed to me to be about of equal level of power to a Horn of Valhalla since this item can improve over time. Maybe I should have made lesser and greater versions of the item to account for this.

The channel negative energy component is there as the finger bone isn't really a full body to animate so I was looking for some way to "grow" the finger bone into an actual skeleton. I also waffled between geas and control undead as the last requirement.

As the item is written only the skeleton that lands the killing blow is replaced in the bag. Yes any higher level PC is going to do just as you suggest and stock the bag with more powerful creatures. Perhaps I was too fixated on trying to allow a lower level PC access to the item and allowing the monsters in the bag to grow in power along with the PCs. It is a mechanic open to possible abuse.

Once again thanks for your thoughts.

Pierce Coady wrote:

Carved Finger Bones of Obligation

We felt this was very Ray Harryhausen/Jason and the Argonauts and not that original.

Well poo. Thanks for the honest feeback Clark. Between Harryhausen and Moorcock's Corum books you hit directly on the inspiration for the item. Unfortunately I obviously crossed the line from homage to uninspired copycat.

Anyone else see anything additional that I can learn from on the mechanics side? Price? Crafting components? Was the mechanical description tight enough to avoid a lot of argument at the table?

I lost the submitted version to a defective memory stick but this is for all intents and purposes the item I submitted. Looking forward to the critique.

Carved Finger Bones of Obligation
Aura strong necromancy; CL 13th
Slot neck; Price 47,200 gp; Weight ¼ lbs.
Description
This ancient leather purse holds five fire blackened human finger bones. The surface of these finger bones have been carved with runes that glow a sullen red as if just plucked from the fire. This cramped script describes a contract of servitude that is binding even beyond death.

Once every three days the bearer may reach into the purse, pull forth any number of bones found therein, and throw them to the floor in adjacent empty locations. For each bone used this way, a human skeleton clad in tattered furs and cracked leather rises to defend the bearer. These skeletons will surround the bearer and guard her from all melee attacks for the next ten minutes.

If a defending skeleton is destroyed, the finger bone that summoned them returns to the leather pouch. If the skeleton(s) manage to kill a creature, the skeleton that landed the killing blow cuts, rips, or bites off a finger bone from their defeated adversary and places it in the pouch. Having fulfilled their oath, this skeleton immediately crumbles to dust as the defeated creature assumes their obligation. If the defeated creature does not have fingers or claws, such as an ooze or plant, a bone is not placed in the purse but the victorious skeleton is still released from servitude. For this reason found bags may contain fewer than five finger bones.

All summoned skeletons use the statistics found in the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary except these skeletal defenders have 13 hp. All defeated creatures that take the place of a previous defender have the skeleton template applied to them.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, animate dead, control undead, Channel Energy (negative); Cost 23,600 gp

So my item didn't make the Top 32. Not a huge surprise given the number of submissions and the quality of the items that made the cut.

As I have read through the items and the judges comments I was struck by how often they commented on how well the item tied into the Golarian campaign setting. While my group has adopted the Pathfinder rules we are still playing in the 3.5 Forgotten Realms setting/time period and my knowledge of Golarian is still pretty superficial. In an effort looking towards improving in next year's competition I wonder how important you think connecting your item to the Pathfinder campaign setting is?

Important? Not important? A nice edge for items that might have other deficiencies?

Pierce Coady wrote:

Torc of the Ironwood Huntress

That's a good item, though and you are really close. I;m not sure why it modifies iron body--ie, the companion doesnt get blindness immunity or 15/adamantine, or armed attacks when unarmed, etc, for instance.

We had an item we really liked that buffed a familiar (not telling if it made the cut or not but we at least kept it).

In the end though its just giving ironbody to a companion. Needs a bit more, but man this is a good item. Would it make a big book of magic items? Yes. Superstar top 32? Not in my book, but still real close.

Clark,

First let me say thanks for the feedback. I know most of us out here value the judges’ critiques of our submissions and I hope you have enough time to offer those same types of thoughts again this year. I know that just reading through the previous year’s entries has made me a better player/GM and that further critique can only help me improve even further.

Secondly, I’m just jazzed that you saw promise in the item I chose not to submit. At this point even if my submitted item doesn’t make the cut I feel like I got an attaboy from someone that I greatly respect and that means a lot.

I agree with your criticisms of the item you referenced. While I think it made a pretty decent magic item, it isn’t RPG Superstar level. I did learn one thing pretty clearly, if you deviate from the listed spell effects/feats/class features your magic item uses in its construction you need to make sure that it is crystal clear why they differ. While I had reasons as to why the item had the effects they did (mostly revolving around nature loving druid effectively turning their best friend into an unnatural construct and the differences between iron and wood that is as hard as iron) they weren’t immediately obvious and the sheer number of submissions you need to go through can’t allow you to think about any one item for too long.

Ultimately, all of those reasons were why I chose not to submit this one for the contest but I feel like I learn something new each and every time I go through the design process. I’m really looking forward to next week and the judges’ comments on the top 32. Hopefully mine can be one of them but if not I feel like I have already won.

Set wrote:

Pierce Coady wrote:

Torc of the Ironwood Huntress

That's pretty neat. A cheaper version that just made the companion become as hard as regular wood would probably be even more affordable.

...and thematically appropriate.

I can't disagree there.

The use of the ironbody spell which effectively transforms you into a golem/construct is just about as far from druid territory as you can get. My difficulty was that I am not aware of a spell which transforms living flesh into wood without going down the wish pathway. In my own mind I justified it as a magical mingling of ironwood and ironbody to effectively make an ironwood body spell.

While this seems to me to be within the boundaries of what wondrous items do, it was also another reason not to submit this one.

Here is another idea from my slush pile. I liked where it was going but costing the item was proving to be difficult. I probably would have put price of around 45,000 gp on it had I submitted it and hoped I was close. I did like involving the Handle Animal skill check to activate the item.

Torc of the Ironwood Huntress
Aura strong transmutation; CL 9th
Slot neck; Price ZZ gp; Weight 3 lbs.
Description
This thick braided torc is a weave of woody vines, leaves, and moss bound at either end with the snarling head of a mountain lion carved from ironwood and is designed to be worn around the neck of a druid’s animal companion.

Once per day a druid can have their animal companion activate the torc by emitting the command sound (roar, bark, screech, etc.) by making a Handle Animal check as a free action. The DC for this check is 10 if the animal companion knows the trick perform and 25 if they do not. A successful activation of the item transforms the body of the animal companion into living ironwood for up to 8 rounds.

The animal companion gains damage reduction 10/adamantine and is immune to critical hits, ability score damage, disease, fire, electricity, poison, and only takes half damage from acid. The animal companion receives a +6 enhancement bonus to their Strength and a -6 reduction to Dexterity (to a minimum Dexterity score of 1). The animal companion becomes vulnerable to all special attacks that affect wood golems (see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary).
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, ironbody, ironwood, Cost ZZ gp

Entangling Embrace of the Earth Mother
an amped up, reusable tanglefoot bag? I'm not sure I'm excited.
your rules for suffocation seem a bit wonky. fist it would be 1d6+6 points of damage, and then there already are rules for suffocation in the game. you should use those, maybe lower the time the creature can hold it's breath, because it's actively strangled.
and at last it should at least entangle creatures that don't breathe.

Thanks for your feedback Azmahel. The concept really started out as a way to apply the progression of entangled/grappled/pinned/helpless conditions in successive order but it proved to be too difficult to sum up in 300 words and keep it flavorful. Ultimately since it was a druid-centric item I chose to use the constrict monster ability to deal bludgeoning damage. I hadn't thought of putting a 1 in front of the D6+6 damage descriptor and I think had I polished the item a bit more for submission the item would still more clearly entangle a non-breathing foe. It was the first thing I noticed when I opened the item to post in this thread.

Again, as mentioned in previous comments, this is just an overview.. nothing too technical. (in case someone wants to critique my critique).

Pretty nifty item Pierce!

My first concern would have been that you're re-inventing the Rope of Entanglement. Re-inventions don't always fly, espcially if they don't have something different to set them apart from the Core Item. Having said that, you definitely get points for flavor. Its good to see some druidic items

Second concern is that you're explaining a few things that don't need to be explained. Specifically this: "Track the nonlethal damage taken by the creature and apply the staggered and/or unconscious conditions as appropriate." You can just drop that sentence and save the word count or use it for something else.

All in all, a decent item. I wish you good luck with the item you actually submitted!

Thanks Watcher. I wasn't even aware of the Rope of Entanglement until I started looking for item price comparisons in the rule book. Frankly it's part of the reason I didn't submit this one.

In hindsight its obvious I missed on the line of description I added but I struggled with being clear on how the item worked and explaining too much. Hopefully I didn't do too much of that in my submitted item, and if I did I guess I learned my lesson for this year.

Thanks for the feedback all, it is always helpful to have more sets of eyes look at an idea and point out the nose sitting on my face. :)

This idea was taken from a campaign I am currently running. A druid in the party wanted a way to take prisoners for questioning rather than killing everything in sight and I came up with this idea. Hopefully this isn't the item I should have submitted...

Entangling Embrace of the Earth Mother
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 9th
Slot – ; Price 27,600 gp; Weight 1/4 lbs.
Description
This mottled crimson and ochre colored fruit was harvested from a carnivorous vine and bears a ghostly silver druidic glyph traced across its exterior. The fruit is covered in small hooked barbs and appears ready to burst as something slithers under its swollen, pregnant skin.

Once per day, the possessor may make a ranged touch attack by throwing this fruit at a creature. If this attack is successful the barbed fruit hooks onto its target, breaks open, and fast growing vines immediately entangle the creature. On subsequent rounds, if still entangling the creature, the vines will constrict and deal D6+6 nonlethal damage to the creature attempting to make it pass out from lack of oxygen. Track the nonlethal damage taken by the creature and apply the staggered and/or unconscious conditions as appropriate. This item has no effect on creatures that do not need to breathe.

The entangled creature may attempt to break free from the vines by making a DC 25 Strength or Escape Artist check. An entangling embrace of the earth mother has AC 22, 16 hit points, and damage reduction 5/slashing. If all 16 hit points are lost to damage the item is destroyed.

If the ranged touch attack misses, the creature escapes or goes unconscious, or the effect is canceled the vines cease to entangle and constrict their target. One new fruit bearing the druidic glyph can be found and harvested in this mass of now inert vegetation. This harvested fruit cannot be used until the next day.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, bull's strength, entangle, plant growth; Cost 13,800 gp

I just released the item to wander the judges pen so that it may be hunted down by Clark, Wes and Sean. Hopefully it will be received well. Barring that I look forward to some savage critique so I can improve next year. Whatever the outcome this has been fun. Thanks Paizo!

Thanks Sean, Hydro and tejón!

I'm curious to hear what other entrants learned from doing their entry. Anyone? Feel like you graduated from Pathfinder U just yet? :)

Hey Matt, good to see you around here. (Fred says hi!)

This has been a real learning experience for me. My overall exposure to D&D/Pathfinder started pretty late in life for me so I do NOT have an encyclopedic knowledge of the rules, previous versions, WI from other sources, etc..

I do know that from taking an idea from initial concept through development has been a real challenge but it is definitely making me a better GM as I learn about more obscure spells, research existing Wondrous Items to compare pricing, dumping ideas when I discover an idea I had is already sitting there in the book with a slightly different name/flavor.

My biggest challenge is reducing word count. I have always been a verbose writer and it really shows in this limited format. I am always crossing the line between describing information the GM and player might want (hardness, hp, etc.) versus keeping the wonder of the item even in the crunchy bits of the prose. Its a constant argument I find having with myself as to how much of that kind of information to provide.

At the end of the day I feel like I have three pretty strong contenders that at least meet the cool magic item level. Now whether they rise to the level of Superstar status is for others to decide but I look forward to whatever critique Clark, et al are able to provide.

PS - Oh! And pricing these danged things. I'm not sure what dark altar I need to make sacrifice upon to ever feel comfortable with the costing I put on these things. Dark art indeed.

Pierce

A druid player in my campaign has a question regarding animal companions and their possible use of magical items.

I know companions can use armor (and presumably magical armor as well) with the appropriate feat. I suppose it could make sense to allow items which give a passive stat or skill bonus but can an animal companion use a device that requires activation? I presume not with and INT of 2 and no UMD skill.

I have looked through the rule book and find no mention of item slots for animals in either the Animal Companion or the Magical Items sections however I told her I would ask the experts here.

Thanks in advance for your help and I hope the answer isn't too obviously in the book.

Ok. So I played my 4th lvl Gnome Summoner for the first time this past Saturday. My intitial reaction is that the Summoner himself really did not do a whole lot, combat wise. When it came to the first encounter, I summoned the Eidelon and then went invisible. The Eidelon did all the work, while the summoner stayed out of the way. Granted, my gnome is not the best at fighting, but the Eidelon is much better. The spell list is mostly defensive in nature, which makes him more support and all his critters are the attack power.

My GM and I talked about the Summon Monster duration. I tend to agree with what I hav read on the boards. 1 min/lvl seems a bit long, but there were times when 1 round/lvl seemd a little short. I agree that a bonus could be that middle ground. Say round/lvl + CHA bonus.

I do wonder how many other summoner players actually picked Summon Monster as a spell they know. It seems a little redundant when you can already cast it on your own.

Over all I enjoy the class. So far it does not seem too overpowered and it is like running 2 characters at once. With a Biped Eidelon with INT of 7 that can speak, it is more than a Druid and her pet. It is a whole other character.

More to come after next game day.

As the DM of this game I wanted to lay out a few more snippets about the campaign we are currently playing.

- We are playing a pretty modified version of the Second Darkness AP in the old FR setting.
- All PCs were level 4, and include a druid with mountain lion companion, abberant sorcerer, dwarven fighter 2/wizard 2, dwarven fighter, and we were joined by GreatJawa's gnomish summoner and his 4 armed biped eidolon. Our cleric went AWOL on us a few weeks back so the party is short healing. All characters leveled to 5 the other night as we finished the arc of the first AP book.
- I was one of the people presuming that there needed to be a limit on the number of summons out at one time to keep the game moving and to not crush level appropriate CR encounters.
- Even though its RAW to not be able to communicate with your summoned creatures unless you speak their language, I allow my PCs to have a bit more control over their summoned creatures so they can set them up to flank, use special abilities, etc...

After the changes Jason made late last week and playing one session I have the following thoughts after a bit of reflection.
- I would still allow the SLA summons to be 1 min/level. GreatJawa used a summoned wolf to help chase and then track a foe through Riddleport for the four minutes the spell lasted. Rounds/level really makes out of combat uses for summoned monsters difficult. Beyond that I would reinstate the standard action spell cast length but keep the current limit of one active use of the SLA at a time.
- I would still limit the use of the summon monster spell to rounds/level.
- Given the small number of spells available to the summoner I don't think it is automatic that they are going to take Summon Monster X as part of their spell arsenal. This combined with the rounds/level would go a long way in my mind to making the summon nova problem much less of a possibility. Can it still happen? Yes, but I think it much less likely after watching the class played a bit.
- The eidolon can still be a bruiser even overshadowing the dwarf fighter in the group. I do like the customization this class offers but I fear that if built correctly they can outstrip other PCs.
- I know GreatJawa felt like he was playing the eidolon more than the gnome summoner, especially during combat. He and I need to keep working on this a bit as I think it was a very different way for him to play this game. The way his character is built the gnome is the social aspect of the class while the eidolon is the expression of his physical will.

We will continue to playtest the class with these restrictions in mind and see if anything new comes out from Jason prior to the end of the playtest period.

Pierce Coady wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Part of his schtick is that the summoner can do adventures solo because he CAN conjure an army. As in, "my GM is going to run a solo campaign for me, I'm going to play a summoner because he's especially suited for it."

Yes, in a standard group the summoner can go overboard with all of his summoned creatures' actions... and a courteous player won't dominate the game that way. Just as another character with summonings, animal companions, and cohorts should give the other players time to play.

Any suggestions for how to develop a CR for a group with a summoner in it? It seems that with the sheer number of summons they have available they can make an appropriate level encounter for a group totally meaningless, especially if the summoner saves his summons for the BBEG.

I am not yet convince a summoner is powerful enough to warrent a cr increase. He is infact just part of the party, his summons are part of his power, just like a wizards spells or a fighter's sword. Sure a bunch of summons is a great thing, but is it more game changing then say a grease spell at low levels? Or black tentacles? And if your summoner is saving all his summons for the big bad you probably arent taxing your players properly before hand. My players always have a few fights before they get to the big bad (he has minions after all) and when they get there, the big bad is never, ever EVER alone. There will always be fodder to keep the big bad safe long enough to cause some havoc.

I am going to be doing some playtesting in the next week or so, in which case i'll get back to you if I think the CR needs increasing.

As for the minutes per level thing, I just dont see it as a problem for my group. Our encounters are always spread out, especially when we stop to search a room after an encounter. All of our dms always hide clues and little plot hooks in important rooms and encounters, so things take a little extra time. Plus identifying loot, and divying it up...

Yep, the idea of whittling down the parties resources is SOP it just feels like the summoner has a lot of resources to whittle on. I won't disagree that playtesting will determine if its a problem or not, its just something that has caught my eye in a class I otherwise really like as written so far. Our group has a summoner joining them this weekend so we will see how it works out on the table. I look forward to your and everyone else's reports Kolokotroni.

Part of his schtick is that the summoner can do adventures solo because he CAN conjure an army. As in, "my GM is going to run a solo campaign for me, I'm going to play a summoner because he's especially suited for it."

Yes, in a standard group the summoner can go overboard with all of his summoned creatures' actions... and a courteous player won't dominate the game that way. Just as another character with summonings, animal companions, and cohorts should give the other players time to play.

Any suggestions for how to develop a CR for a group with a summoner in it? It seems that with the sheer number of summons they have available they can make an appropriate level encounter for a group totally meaningless, especially if the summoner saves his summons for the BBEG.

Pierce Coady wrote:

Kolokotroni wrote:

But what is the rationale? When you summon a monster its not under your control in the first place? In fact based on RaW you are not likely to be able to communicate with it anymore. So what are they actually getting out of control of?

I can see some players using the summoned creature as a fire and forget missile but our group has typically played the summoned creatures with much more control over them assuming that we are most often within range of communication and not hundreds of feet away from one another.

As I read the PRD section below you certainly can control the creature to a greater degree if desired and within communication range. Maybe I have just conflated that with assuming that one needed to give the summoned creature an order every round even if it was to attack the same target as last round.

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st Level list on Table 10–1. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can choose a different one each time you cast the spell.

Right but untill you get to the outsiders they dont have a language you could potentially know. I think the dretch and the mephit are the only summonable creatures you can communicate with untill fairly high levels.

Hmmmm. So I can communicate with the summoned monster enough to bring it to this plane and tell it to attack a specific target in a room of potential targets but then it will ignore me because I don't speak Celestial Hippogryph? Thats probably RAW, as all things are possible with magic, but I think I will continue to let my players communicate with any monster they can summon. I appreciate the feedback.

But what is the rationale? When you summon a monster its not under your control in the first place? In fact based on RaW you are not likely to be able to communicate with it anymore. So what are they actually getting out of control of?

I can see some players using the summoned creature as a fire and forget missile but our group has typically played the summoned creatures with much more control over them assuming that we are most often within range of communication and not hundreds of feet away from one another.

As I read the PRD section below you certainly can control the creature to a greater degree if desired and within communication range. Maybe I have just conflated that with assuming that one needed to give the summoned creature an order every round even if it was to attack the same target as last round.

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st Level list on Table 10–1. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can choose a different one each time you cast the spell.

Regardless of the RP and rules rationale Jason might decide upon I do think that the number of summoned creatures in play at one time does need to be limited through some mechanic. If nothing else to keep the encounters moving along and keeping the rest of the playgroup involved rather than waiting 10 minutes between their own actions.

Quijenoth wrote:

Spells aside the summoner does bring alot more power to the battlefield given time compared to a standard conjurer..

A human summoner with 20 cha will generally need 5+ miniatures at hand.

1 for his character
1 for his eidolon
1 to 3 for summon monster (3 casts per day possible with 20 cha)
and 1 to 8 for summon monster ability (3+ cha (+5) that last 1 minute!)

Thats a lot of creatures to manage and as the summoner levels and he gets to choose more monsters per summon monster hes going to need even more miniatures!

Thats alot of actions per round to devote to one player. It will be interesting to see how the other players react to this.

You are right....How about a whole party of summoners that will make a DM go crazy. I didn't about that. Now my head hurts.

Would one way to limit this problem be to impose a percentile failure rate beyond the eidolon and the first summoned monster? This could mirror the problem of the summoner having to control/direct that many creatures every 6 seconds. A possible scenario might look like

1 eidolon and 1 summoned monster = 100% success
1 eidolon and 2 summoned monster = 85% success
1 eidolon and 3 summoned monster = 70% success
1 eidolon and 4 summoned monster = 55% success
1 eidolon and 5 summoned monster = 40% success

Effects for a failure could be as tame as the monsters just sit there for a round doing nothing to as vicious as the DM takes control of the monsters as they rampages out of control in the combat. This leaves it up to the player to take the risks associated with summoning more monsters and maybe diminishes the fear of the super-swarm of monsters crushing an encounter.

Thanks for the information James.

Well it sounds possible to do what I had originally asked but as I have been thinking about this a bit it seems to me that there might be a market for a useful e-product here from Paizo. Is there a profitable business model that doesn't tread on plans for their other products in a regularly updated Bestiary .pdf product?

Some background first. I love the Pathfinder rules and Bestiary, buy APs/Chronicles to mine for excellent story/adventure information and use a number of Game Mastery products in my group's campaign. I love Paizo's fluff and find myself adapting it for use in my FR campaign. While I don't need the Golarion specific stuff to run my campaign I would love to have access to the monsters from their various product lines which I can repurpose for my own use in my campaign. I would gladly buy the Bestiary pdf and subscribe (lets say $5/month for arguments sake) to a new product that added the monsters from other Paizo products to the base Bestiary pdf on a monthly/quarterly basis. So for example the base Bestiary file would be updated with the new devils from the first Book of the Damned and whichever AP was released that month. An email is sent out letting you know that a modified pdf is waiting for you to download just like on an errata.

Pros
- The work has been created and can be sold to a customer that wouldn't have purchased it previously for whatever reason.
- The subscription model brings a regular cash stream in the door. A concept Paizo already implements in an excellent manner.
- The IT and delivery system is already in place to hopefully automate the updating procedure and the watermarking system stays in place.

Cons
- Probably undercuts the sales of some hardcover Bestiary sales.
- Reduces opportunities to use those monsters in another Bestiary down the line although I gather that the Golarion specific monsters aren't slated for collection in a Bestiary anytime soon.
- Someone has to update the pdf on a periodic basis.

Maybe I am a pretty small segment of the market and it isn't financially worth catering to for any number of reasons but I would gladly give Paizo more money each month if this could happen.

Pierce

the PDFs are password protected. Your best bet is to just print off the monsters in question and form a book of the monsters you wish to have.

Alas. I had assumed this would be the case but felt I had to ask anyway. I certainly don't mind paying for the pdf but I know too many people in the world feel that it's their right to get free copies of everything.

Given this I guess I probably won't purchase the pdf right away as it doesnt give me any immediate benefit but if Paizo can determine a way to do this and still protect their IP count me in as a supporter and purchaser of dead tree and pdf materials in the future.

First of all, thank you Paizo.

Our gaming group is having a blast with the new rules set and I am loving running a heavily modified Second Darkness campaign in the FR my group is familiar with. Since the wider campaign has some dangling plot hooks for various characters that focus on a local dispute between demons and devils I purchased the first Book of the Damned and once again love what I am seeing there for inspiration in our campaign.

My question is this. While I own the hardcover Bestiary I have not yet purchased the pdf of it or the Book of the Damned. As I was looking through both it occurred to me that there might be a way to insert the Book of the Damned monsters into the pdf version of the Bestiary so all my monsters would be in one place.

I know this can be done in pdfs I have created at work but I don't know if this is possible in the Paizo products. It probably has implications for internal links (assuming there are some in the Bestiary pdf) but if it worked it would really reduce the number of paper products I have to bring to the game each week. I could also see adding in the Bonus Bestiary monsters if possible as well.

Anyone know if this can be done?

Pierce

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the use of unique fishingline powers (similar to sorcerer bloodlines) based on where in the world your family is from and where ply your trade ala a Norwegian fishingline giving you a benefit to Cod related skill and fishing checks...

Danubus wrote:

Will you start selling the books Thrs night at GenCon? My friends and I were planning on going Saturday and really afraid they will be gone by then. I am going to try and get them to go Friday if possible.

At GenCon, we will start selling books on Thursday morning at 10am when the exhibit hall opens.

-Lisa

Can you give us an idea of how many copies you are bringing to Gencon? I had planned on picking one up there and I need to know how soon to get myself in a line on Thursday morning.