Wow, goodbye Conjurer!


Round 2: Summoner and Witch

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Scarab Sages

Hello Summoner! :D

I am seriously loving this class. The Summons at an earlier progression than other spells of their level AND a lot of them, the Eidolen is awesome, and more. But I can't help but wondering why I'd ever play a Wizard (Conjurer) now over this if my focus was Summons. I guess the larger spell list would still be an appeal, so there is that.

Awesome job with these Jason, only now starting in on the Witch and I'm liking the way teaching new spells to it is handled. I have to say I kind of think there should be a material component cost with these rituals to balance it with the wizard spell book, but need to playtest it to be sure.


Access to the full Wizard spell list and spell progression would be a big positive for the Conjurer over the Summoner. Note that the Summoner has very, very few offensive spells aside from the summons.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Full access to wizard spells would be my justification. Sometimes you can only really just remove a problem by casting dispel magic or, in rarer cases, gust of wind.


I agree, the spell list is the key. I'm playing a Conjurer now and although I'd love to try out this class, I'm still pretty stuck on some of my non-summoning spells.

Sovereign Court

yeah 9th level spells FTW, good balance IMO A summoner has lower level spells and a pet, and a conjurer has higher level spells and an eventual pet.


Zurai wrote:
Access to the full Wizard spell list and spell progression would be a big positive for the Conjurer over the Summoner. Note that the Summoner has very, very few offensive spells aside from the summons.

He has all the spells that matter, some even at lower levels. I'm talking about Grease, Glitterdust, Black Tentacles, Charm Monster, Haste...basically all the spells that win fights instead of just scratching the monster's skin.

Dark Archive

It's sort of how there's very little reason in 3.5 to play an Enchanter instead of a Beguiler, or a Necromancer instead of a Dread Necromancer, or a Fighter/Rogue/Enchanter over a Bard.

Spell versatility or a particular character concept are the main reasons to play a conjurer. Personally, I did the math on my low level conjurer and the summoner, and the summoner blows him out of the water, because the only spells my conjurer uses that the summoner doesn't are mirror image and pyrotechnics, but every round I spend casting a summon monster spell is one that I could be a summoner and do that while having a pet beat on somebody.

Really, there's still very good incentives to play a conjurer focused on battlefield control spells, who summons monsters occasionally. Augment summoning is only 1 feat away, and PF doesn't have a whole lot of feat options for conjurers anyhow.


Major conjuration spells that the Summoner does not get:

stinking cloud
web
sleet storm
solid fog
cloudkill
acid fog
magnificent mansion
trap the soul

And that's just in Core. In addition, here's some other major spells the Summoner does not get that the Conjurer does:

time stop
wish/limited wish
wail of the banshee
horrid wilting
shapechange
astral projection
polymorph any object
irresistible dance
mind blank
prismatic wall/sphere/spray
control weather
forcecage/wall of force
flesh to stone
disintegrate
contingency
true seeing
antimagic field
disjunction
imprisonment
break enchantment
symbols
power words
mirror image
ray of enfeeblement
magic missile


Malaclypse wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Access to the full Wizard spell list and spell progression would be a big positive for the Conjurer over the Summoner. Note that the Summoner has very, very few offensive spells aside from the summons.
He has all the spells that matter, some even at lower levels. I'm talking about Grease, Glitterdust, Black Tentacles, Charm Monster, Haste...basically all the spells that win fights instead of just scratching the monster's skin.

But none of the extremely useful utility spells.

I was all set to convert my Conjurer to Summoner until I realized Infernal Healing isn't on the Summoners' list - and there is no way (currently) to add "unusual" spells to the Summoners list.

Grand Lodge

Disenchanter wrote:
Malaclypse wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Access to the full Wizard spell list and spell progression would be a big positive for the Conjurer over the Summoner. Note that the Summoner has very, very few offensive spells aside from the summons.
He has all the spells that matter, some even at lower levels. I'm talking about Grease, Glitterdust, Black Tentacles, Charm Monster, Haste...basically all the spells that win fights instead of just scratching the monster's skin.

But none of the extremely useful utility spells.

I was all set to convert my Conjurer to Summoner until I realized Infernal Healing isn't on the Summoners' list - and there is no way (currently) to add "unusual" spells to the Summoners list.

There's always wands and UMD


Zurai wrote:

Major conjuration spells that the Summoner does not get:

stinking cloud
web
sleet storm
solid fog
cloudkill
acid fog
magnificent mansion
trap the soul

And that's just in Core. In addition, here's some other major spells the Summoner does not get that the Conjurer does:

snip - lotsa spells

OK, he doesn't get web, his pet does. The other spells do kind of hurt, but then again, he gets a pet that's a better melee char than a barbarian or fighter (at least at lower levels).


Malaclypse wrote:
OK, he doesn't get web, his pet does.

No, his pet does not get web. The Web evolution is similar to what giant spiders in the Bestiary have, which is basically just a single-target version of web without any of the area-denial properties. It also requires 4 evolution points and 7th level minimum (whereas a Conjurer will have web at 3rd level).


Thanks for the clarification.


Malaclypse wrote:

OK, he doesn't get web, his pet does. The other spells do kind of hurt, but then again, he gets a pet that's a better melee char than a barbarian or fighter (at least at lower levels).

That's the point. Wizards get 9 levels of spells, the get a vastly larger selection of spells, the ultimately get more spells total (though this isn't true at low levels). Summoners get a cool melee critter and can summon stuff.

Now at the very lowest levels the summoner is going to clean the wizard's clock.

I guess the wizard does get their little blasty 1d6+ 1/2 level... doesn't seem to compare well with summon monster to me.

Grand Lodge

Spells aside the summoner does bring alot more power to the battlefield given time compared to a standard conjurer..

A human summoner with 20 cha will generally need 5+ miniatures at hand.

1 for his character
1 for his eidolon
1 to 3 for summon monster (3 casts per day possible with 20 cha)
and 1 to 8 for summon monster ability (3+ cha (+5) that last 1 minute!)

Thats a lot of creatures to manage and as the summoner levels and he gets to choose more monsters per summon monster hes going to need even more miniatures!

Thats alot of actions per round to devote to one player. It will be interesting to see how the other players react to this.


Karui Kage wrote:

Hello Summoner! :D

I am seriously loving this class. The Summons at an earlier progression than other spells of their level AND a lot of them, the Eidolen is awesome, and more. But I can't help but wondering why I'd ever play a Wizard (Conjurer) now over this if my focus was Summons. I guess the larger spell list would still be an appeal, so there is that.

Awesome job with these Jason, only now starting in on the Witch and I'm liking the way teaching new spells to it is handled. I have to say I kind of think there should be a material component cost with these rituals to balance it with the wizard spell book, but need to playtest it to be sure.

I don't think there needs to be a cost associated, since the Witch can lose her spellcasting when the familiar dies.


Quijenoth wrote:

Spells aside the summoner does bring alot more power to the battlefield given time compared to a standard conjurer..

A human summoner with 20 cha will generally need 5+ miniatures at hand.

1 for his character
1 for his eidolon
1 to 3 for summon monster (3 casts per day possible with 20 cha)
and 1 to 8 for summon monster ability (3+ cha (+5) that last 1 minute!)

Thats a lot of creatures to manage and as the summoner levels and he gets to choose more monsters per summon monster hes going to need even more miniatures!

Thats alot of actions per round to devote to one player. It will be interesting to see how the other players react to this.

This is, incidentally, another reason I didn't want the Summoner to have the summon monster spells. And removing those spells and spell-likes would also solidify the Conjurer's niche again, for those worried about that. The Summoner would then be the guy you go to for one big nasty summon or a small group of powerful summons (planar binding spells), and the Conjurer would be the guy you go to for an entire army of summoned minions.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Quijenoth wrote:

Spells aside the summoner does bring alot more power to the battlefield given time compared to a standard conjurer..

A human summoner with 20 cha will generally need 5+ miniatures at hand.

1 for his character
1 for his eidolon
1 to 3 for summon monster (3 casts per day possible with 20 cha)
and 1 to 8 for summon monster ability (3+ cha (+5) that last 1 minute!)

Thats a lot of creatures to manage and as the summoner levels and he gets to choose more monsters per summon monster hes going to need even more miniatures!

Thats alot of actions per round to devote to one player. It will be interesting to see how the other players react to this.

That is assuming he going to summon twice in one fight. Seems kind of wasteful to me. But I imagine it would be like when I played a 3.5 druid and would summon natures ally. But I think that is the kind of things that needs to be handled at each individual table more then anything else.


Quijenoth wrote:

Spells aside the summoner does bring alot more power to the battlefield given time compared to a standard conjurer..

A human summoner with 20 cha will generally need 5+ miniatures at hand.

1 for his character
1 for his eidolon
1 to 3 for summon monster (3 casts per day possible with 20 cha)
and 1 to 8 for summon monster ability (3+ cha (+5) that last 1 minute!)

Thats a lot of creatures to manage and as the summoner levels and he gets to choose more monsters per summon monster hes going to need even more miniatures!

Thats alot of actions per round to devote to one player. It will be interesting to see how the other players react to this.

I don't think # of minis relates directly to character power. Regardless, the summon monster X SLA only works 6-8 times per day. It's uses are likely to be spread out. I suppose you can nova them though.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dennis da Ogre wrote:


I don't think # of minis relates directly to character power. Regardless, the summon monster X SLA only works 6-8 times per day. It's uses are likely to be spread out. I suppose you can nova them though.

I think the point is its alot of actions controled by the summoner player. If i have 3 summoned beasties, my own actions and a eidolon to act on, the other players could be waiting a while for me to finish. I dont think its a power issue, but possibly a practical at the table time use issue.


Kolokotroni wrote:
Dennis da Ogre wrote:


I don't think # of minis relates directly to character power. Regardless, the summon monster X SLA only works 6-8 times per day. It's uses are likely to be spread out. I suppose you can nova them though.
I think the point is its alot of actions controled by the summoner player. If i have 3 summoned beasties, my own actions and a eidolon to act on, the other players could be waiting a while for me to finish. I dont think its a power issue, but possibly a practical at the table time use issue.

This whole class has issues with that. But then any character that does a lot of summons has that issue. I'm good with a house rule on summons that limits summons to 1 per character. In this case it would be 1 plus the Eidolon.

I recall a few people complaining about casters spamming hippogriphs in 3.5 :D


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dennis da Ogre wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
Dennis da Ogre wrote:


I don't think # of minis relates directly to character power. Regardless, the summon monster X SLA only works 6-8 times per day. It's uses are likely to be spread out. I suppose you can nova them though.
I think the point is its alot of actions controled by the summoner player. If i have 3 summoned beasties, my own actions and a eidolon to act on, the other players could be waiting a while for me to finish. I dont think its a power issue, but possibly a practical at the table time use issue.

This whole class has issues with that. But then any character that does a lot of summons has that issue. I'm good with a house rule on summons that limits summons to 1 per character. In this case it would be 1 plus the Eidolon.

I recall a few people complaining about casters spamming hippogriphs in 3.5 :D

Oh I agree that its not a new issue. Like i said i had it with a 3.5 druid. The requirement was I had to know what each creature was going to do before my turn started or they automatically delayed untill I figured it out, which I thought was fair.

By the way, your limit on summons, is that the number of summon spells or summoned creatures?


Kolokotroni wrote:
By the way, your limit on summons, is that the number of summon spells or summoned creatures?

It would have to be a limit on the number of active summons spells.


Dennis da Ogre wrote:


That's the point. Wizards get 9 levels of spells, the get a vastly larger selection of spells, the ultimately get more spells total (though this isn't true at low levels). Summoners get a cool melee critter and can summon stuff.

Now at the very lowest levels the summoner is going to clean the wizard's clock.

I guess the wizard does get their little blasty 1d6+ 1/2 level... doesn't seem to compare well with summon monster to me.

Wizards who specialize in blasting far less powerful than wizards who specialize in controlling and status effects. So the Summoner having a powerful pet AND at least half of the good controller spells does make him overpowered at low levels, at least in my eyes.

At high levels, pure wizards way overpowered compared to almost any class. But we got used to that ages ago, right? :)

Grand Lodge

Assuming worst case senario imagine a 17th level summoner with a favoratism towards Dinosaurs.

with summon monster 9 he can generate 1d4+1 T-Rex's each round of combat that will remain for 17 minutes before he even casts a regular spell.

Assuming a summoner with 20 base cha, +4 cha from stat increases and +6 from items thats 13 times per day.

Thats a potential 65 T-Rex's running rampant!

Even with a limit of 2 summons per combat thats still 4-10 Gargantuan creatures the player has to manage for 6 encounters per day because they each last 17 minutes!

Battlefield management has always been an issue with summoned creatures but the biggest culprit is the summoners 1 minute per level duration. once your past the 10 minute milestone most players will be asking the DM to track each encounter and you may end up with some situations that see the party using the same summoned monsters for 3 or 4 encounters before their duration expires.


Malaclypse wrote:
Wizards who specialize in blasting far less powerful than wizards who specialize in controlling and status effects. So the Summoner having a powerful pet AND at least half of the good controller spells does make him overpowered at low levels, at least in my eyes.

The summoner is quite powerful at low levels, maybe overly powerful. Eidolon, spells, plus the summoning SLA 6 times/ day is a lot of stuff for a 1st-3rd level caster.

Once wizards get to 5th or 7th level things balance out quite a bit. I can't imagine getting a martial class when you can get a decent caster + Eidolon.


Dennis da Ogre wrote:
I can't imagine getting a martial class when you can get a decent caster + Eidolon.

A paladin is still better than the combo against an evil opponent, and fighters are going to be better than the Eidolons still (more well-rounded if not as good in the Eidolon's specific focus), but yeah, I've got a feeling the final version of the Summoner is going to need to be reduced in power a tad. Not much, mind, but I do think it needs a little nip-and-tuck.


One thing I've seen (and sorta started doing) to handel the butt ton of summons problem is have the DM run them. This eliminates the caster's player taking two hours for his turn, as well as limit some of the tactical flexibility that having a small army of creatures grants a party.

This way the DM can rule that the animals act like animals, and various other more intelligent creatures act according to their alignment. It also forces the summoning character to think about communication, as I don't think summon monster grants you any sort of telepathy with the summoned creatures.


Zurai wrote:
Dennis da Ogre wrote:
I can't imagine getting a martial class when you can get a decent caster + Eidolon.
A paladin is still better than the combo against an evil opponent, and fighters are going to be better than the Eidolons still (more well-rounded if not as good in the Eidolon's specific focus).

Errr...no. They might be better than the Eidolon alone, but not better than the Eidolon and the Summoner.

Melee baddies can be neutralized by Grease and Glitterdust, possibly charmed, and the eidolon can be hasted by the summoner.

Caster baddies can be grappled by the Black Tentacles or have a Wall of Ice or Fire dropped on them.

All this while the summoner himself can use Displacement or Invisibility or Fly to protect himself.

Oh, and this is only up to 3rd level spells.

So...really, no, Pallys and Fighters stand no chance. But then, they never do :)


Malaclypse wrote:
Melee baddies can be neutralized by Grease and Glitterdust, possibly charmed, and the eidolon can be hasted by the summoner.

You should probably re-read the Pathfinder versions of grease and glitterdust. They aren't a quarter as strong as they used to be, and certainly aren't auto-neutralization. And I only ever said paladins would be as strong as the combo, and then only when fighting smitables (where the paladin gets +cha to hit and ac, ignores DR, and gets +1-2 damage per hit per level). Fighters are as strong as an Eidolon, but probably not as strong as the combo.


Fraust wrote:

One thing I've seen (and sorta started doing) to handel the butt ton of summons problem is have the DM run them. This eliminates the caster's player taking two hours for his turn, as well as limit some of the tactical flexibility that having a small army of creatures grants a party.

This way the DM can rule that the animals act like animals, and various other more intelligent creatures act according to their alignment. It also forces the summoning character to think about communication, as I don't think summon monster grants you any sort of telepathy with the summoned creatures.

This is a good way to run summons. Another really good house rule I've seen is GMs hand control of summons to other players. So if there is one summons the summoner plays him, if there are more then they are spread out to the group. Then the rest of the players don't mind the summons as much.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dennis da Ogre wrote:
Fraust wrote:

One thing I've seen (and sorta started doing) to handel the butt ton of summons problem is have the DM run them. This eliminates the caster's player taking two hours for his turn, as well as limit some of the tactical flexibility that having a small army of creatures grants a party.

This way the DM can rule that the animals act like animals, and various other more intelligent creatures act according to their alignment. It also forces the summoning character to think about communication, as I don't think summon monster grants you any sort of telepathy with the summoned creatures.

This is a good way to run summons. Another really good house rule I've seen is GMs hand control of summons to other players. So if there is one summons the summoner plays him, if there are more then they are spread out to the group. Then the rest of the players don't mind the summons as much.

Interesting idea. I would wonder how it would be handled with some more complicated summons though. Obviously the summon is familiar with his attack options, but the players that arent summonimg them might not be.


Kolokotroni wrote:
Interesting idea. I would wonder how it would be handled with some more complicated summons though. Obviously the summon is familiar with his attack options, but the players that arent summonimg them might not be.

To some extent, but if you play in a regular group it would be a more frequent thing. Also, it would help if you had the stat blocks printed out and ready, most people can read/ run from a standard stat block.

Silver Crusade

Quijenoth wrote:

Spells aside the summoner does bring alot more power to the battlefield given time compared to a standard conjurer..

A human summoner with 20 cha will generally need 5+ miniatures at hand.

1 for his character
1 for his eidolon
1 to 3 for summon monster (3 casts per day possible with 20 cha)
and 1 to 8 for summon monster ability (3+ cha (+5) that last 1 minute!)

Thats a lot of creatures to manage and as the summoner levels and he gets to choose more monsters per summon monster hes going to need even more miniatures!

Thats alot of actions per round to devote to one player. It will be interesting to see how the other players react to this.

You are right....How about a whole party of summoners that will make a DM go crazy. I didn't about that. Now my head hurts.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
brent norton wrote:
Quijenoth wrote:

Spells aside the summoner does bring alot more power to the battlefield given time compared to a standard conjurer..

A human summoner with 20 cha will generally need 5+ miniatures at hand.

1 for his character
1 for his eidolon
1 to 3 for summon monster (3 casts per day possible with 20 cha)
and 1 to 8 for summon monster ability (3+ cha (+5) that last 1 minute!)

Thats a lot of creatures to manage and as the summoner levels and he gets to choose more monsters per summon monster hes going to need even more miniatures!

Thats alot of actions per round to devote to one player. It will be interesting to see how the other players react to this.

You are right....How about a whole party of summoners that will make a DM go crazy. I didn't about that. Now my head hurts.

now now, you have 2 summoners a druid and a ranger with the leadership feat. You still need some divine casting and a skill character. Lets be reasonable people.

Silver Crusade

I am just saying it could happen. And it might. What if you were running at a con and group comes to your Pathfinder Society game and they are a party of Summoners who are aways trying to out-do one another. You really can't turn them away? It's just possible.


brent norton wrote:
Quijenoth wrote:

Spells aside the summoner does bring alot more power to the battlefield given time compared to a standard conjurer..

A human summoner with 20 cha will generally need 5+ miniatures at hand.

1 for his character
1 for his eidolon
1 to 3 for summon monster (3 casts per day possible with 20 cha)
and 1 to 8 for summon monster ability (3+ cha (+5) that last 1 minute!)

Thats a lot of creatures to manage and as the summoner levels and he gets to choose more monsters per summon monster hes going to need even more miniatures!

Thats alot of actions per round to devote to one player. It will be interesting to see how the other players react to this.

You are right....How about a whole party of summoners that will make a DM go crazy. I didn't about that. Now my head hurts.

Would one way to limit this problem be to impose a percentile failure rate beyond the eidolon and the first summoned monster? This could mirror the problem of the summoner having to control/direct that many creatures every 6 seconds. A possible scenario might look like

1 eidolon and 1 summoned monster = 100% success
1 eidolon and 2 summoned monster = 85% success
1 eidolon and 3 summoned monster = 70% success
1 eidolon and 4 summoned monster = 55% success
1 eidolon and 5 summoned monster = 40% success

Effects for a failure could be as tame as the monsters just sit there for a round doing nothing to as vicious as the DM takes control of the monsters as they rampages out of control in the combat. This leaves it up to the player to take the risks associated with summoning more monsters and maybe diminishes the fear of the super-swarm of monsters crushing an encounter.

Silver Crusade

Pierce Coady wrote:
brent norton wrote:
Quijenoth wrote:

Spells aside the summoner does bring alot more power to the battlefield given time compared to a standard conjurer..

A human summoner with 20 cha will generally need 5+ miniatures at hand.

1 for his character
1 for his eidolon
1 to 3 for summon monster (3 casts per day possible with 20 cha)
and 1 to 8 for summon monster ability (3+ cha (+5) that last 1 minute!)

Thats a lot of creatures to manage and as the summoner levels and he gets to choose more monsters per summon monster hes going to need even more miniatures!

Thats alot of actions per round to devote to one player. It will be interesting to see how the other players react to this.

You are right....How about a whole party of summoners that will make a DM go crazy. I didn't about that. Now my head hurts.

Would one way to limit this problem be to impose a percentile failure rate beyond the eidolon and the first summoned monster? This could mirror the problem of the summoner having to control/direct that many creatures every 6 seconds. A possible scenario might look like

1 eidolon and 1 summoned monster = 100% success
1 eidolon and 2 summoned monster = 85% success
1 eidolon and 3 summoned monster = 70% success
1 eidolon and 4 summoned monster = 55% success
1 eidolon and 5 summoned monster = 40% success

Effects for a failure could be as tame as the monsters just sit there for a round doing nothing to as vicious as the DM takes control of the monsters as they rampages out of control in the combat. This leaves it up to the player to take the risks associated with summoning more monsters and maybe diminishes the fear of the super-swarm of monsters crushing an encounter.

I actually like this idea. But I am a evil DM anyway.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Pierce Coady wrote:
brent norton wrote:
Quijenoth wrote:

Spells aside the summoner does bring alot more power to the battlefield given time compared to a standard conjurer..

A human summoner with 20 cha will generally need 5+ miniatures at hand.

1 for his character
1 for his eidolon
1 to 3 for summon monster (3 casts per day possible with 20 cha)
and 1 to 8 for summon monster ability (3+ cha (+5) that last 1 minute!)

Thats a lot of creatures to manage and as the summoner levels and he gets to choose more monsters per summon monster hes going to need even more miniatures!

Thats alot of actions per round to devote to one player. It will be interesting to see how the other players react to this.

You are right....How about a whole party of summoners that will make a DM go crazy. I didn't about that. Now my head hurts.

Would one way to limit this problem be to impose a percentile failure rate beyond the eidolon and the first summoned monster? This could mirror the problem of the summoner having to control/direct that many creatures every 6 seconds. A possible scenario might look like

1 eidolon and 1 summoned monster = 100% success
1 eidolon and 2 summoned monster = 85% success
1 eidolon and 3 summoned monster = 70% success
1 eidolon and 4 summoned monster = 55% success
1 eidolon and 5 summoned monster = 40% success

Effects for a failure could be as tame as the monsters just sit there for a round doing nothing to as vicious as the DM takes control of the monsters as they rampages out of control in the combat. This leaves it up to the player to take the risks associated with summoning more monsters and maybe diminishes the fear of the super-swarm of monsters crushing an encounter.

But what is the rationale? When you summon a monster its not under your control in the first place? In fact based on RaW you are not likely to be able to communicate with it anymore. So what are they actually getting out of control of?

Silver Crusade

Kolokotroni wrote:
Pierce Coady wrote:
brent norton wrote:
Quijenoth wrote:

Spells aside the summoner does bring alot more power to the battlefield given time compared to a standard conjurer..

A human summoner with 20 cha will generally need 5+ miniatures at hand.

1 for his character
1 for his eidolon
1 to 3 for summon monster (3 casts per day possible with 20 cha)
and 1 to 8 for summon monster ability (3+ cha (+5) that last 1 minute!)

Thats a lot of creatures to manage and as the summoner levels and he gets to choose more monsters per summon monster hes going to need even more miniatures!

Thats alot of actions per round to devote to one player. It will be interesting to see how the other players react to this.

You are right....How about a whole party of summoners that will make a DM go crazy. I didn't about that. Now my head hurts.

Would one way to limit this problem be to impose a percentile failure rate beyond the eidolon and the first summoned monster? This could mirror the problem of the summoner having to control/direct that many creatures every 6 seconds. A possible scenario might look like

1 eidolon and 1 summoned monster = 100% success
1 eidolon and 2 summoned monster = 85% success
1 eidolon and 3 summoned monster = 70% success
1 eidolon and 4 summoned monster = 55% success
1 eidolon and 5 summoned monster = 40% success

Effects for a failure could be as tame as the monsters just sit there for a round doing nothing to as vicious as the DM takes control of the monsters as they rampages out of control in the combat. This leaves it up to the player to take the risks associated with summoning more monsters and maybe diminishes the fear of the super-swarm of monsters crushing an encounter.

But what is the rationale? When you summon a monster its not under your control in the first place? In fact based on RaW you are not likely to be able to communicate with it anymore. So what are they actually getting out of control of?

Without the book in front of me I thought summoner had control of the creatures.


Kolokotroni wrote:

But what is the rationale? When you summon a monster its not under your control in the first place? In fact based on RaW you are not likely to be able to communicate with it anymore. So what are they actually getting out of control of?

I can see some players using the summoned creature as a fire and forget missile but our group has typically played the summoned creatures with much more control over them assuming that we are most often within range of communication and not hundreds of feet away from one another.

As I read the PRD section below you certainly can control the creature to a greater degree if desired and within communication range. Maybe I have just conflated that with assuming that one needed to give the summoned creature an order every round even if it was to attack the same target as last round.

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st Level list on Table 10–1. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can choose a different one each time you cast the spell.

Regardless of the RP and rules rationale Jason might decide upon I do think that the number of summoned creatures in play at one time does need to be limited through some mechanic. If nothing else to keep the encounters moving along and keeping the rest of the playgroup involved rather than waiting 10 minutes between their own actions.


brent norton wrote:

Without the book in front of me I thought summoner had control of the creatures.

From PF: It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

If you can't communicate with it it only attacks, nothing more.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Pierce Coady wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:

But what is the rationale? When you summon a monster its not under your control in the first place? In fact based on RaW you are not likely to be able to communicate with it anymore. So what are they actually getting out of control of?

I can see some players using the summoned creature as a fire and forget missile but our group has typically played the summoned creatures with much more control over them assuming that we are most often within range of communication and not hundreds of feet away from one another.

As I read the PRD section below you certainly can control the creature to a greater degree if desired and within communication range. Maybe I have just conflated that with assuming that one needed to give the summoned creature an order every round even if it was to attack the same target as last round.

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st Level list on Table 10–1. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can choose a different one each time you cast the spell.

Right but untill you get to the outsiders they dont have a language you could potentially know. I think the dretch and the mephit are the only summonable creatures you can communicate with untill fairly high levels.


Kolokotroni wrote:
Pierce Coady wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:

But what is the rationale? When you summon a monster its not under your control in the first place? In fact based on RaW you are not likely to be able to communicate with it anymore. So what are they actually getting out of control of?

I can see some players using the summoned creature as a fire and forget missile but our group has typically played the summoned creatures with much more control over them assuming that we are most often within range of communication and not hundreds of feet away from one another.

As I read the PRD section below you certainly can control the creature to a greater degree if desired and within communication range. Maybe I have just conflated that with assuming that one needed to give the summoned creature an order every round even if it was to attack the same target as last round.

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st Level list on Table 10–1. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can choose a different one each time you cast the spell.

Right but untill you get to the outsiders they dont have a language you could potentially know. I think the dretch and the mephit are the only summonable creatures you can communicate with untill fairly high levels.

Hmmmm. So I can communicate with the summoned monster enough to bring it to this plane and tell it to attack a specific target in a room of potential targets but then it will ignore me because I don't speak Celestial Hippogryph? Thats probably RAW, as all things are possible with magic, but I think I will continue to let my players communicate with any monster they can summon. I appreciate the feedback.


Pierce Coady wrote:


Hmmmm. So I can communicate with the summoned monster enough to bring it to this plane and tell it to attack a specific target in a room of potential targets but then it will ignore me because I don't speak Celestial Hippogryph? Thats probably RAW, as all things are possible with magic, but I think I will continue to let my players communicate with any monster they can summon. I appreciate the feedback

Yep. That is why the language Celestial is on the list and why Linguistics is a dandy skill for summoners.


I don't see anything in there that says it attacks a specific target...just your opponenets. Obviously the DM is the final say, but what I get out of it is you summon a creature that appears and will attack anyone who attacks you. Unless of course you can talk to it and tell it to attack specific individuals...which, you still need to keep in mind you're talking to something with potentialy low intelligence.


Andrew Betts wrote:
Disenchanter wrote:
Malaclypse wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Access to the full Wizard spell list and spell progression would be a big positive for the Conjurer over the Summoner. Note that the Summoner has very, very few offensive spells aside from the summons.
He has all the spells that matter, some even at lower levels. I'm talking about Grease, Glitterdust, Black Tentacles, Charm Monster, Haste...basically all the spells that win fights instead of just scratching the monster's skin.

But none of the extremely useful utility spells.

I was all set to convert my Conjurer to Summoner until I realized Infernal Healing isn't on the Summoners' list - and there is no way (currently) to add "unusual" spells to the Summoners list.

There's always wands and UMD

There's also a feat in the Complete Arcane that allows you to add a spell to your spell list, for those MUST have spells. Sorry, I don't remember the name of the feat or the prerequisites.

Grand Lodge

Daniel Moyer wrote:
There's also a feat in the Complete Arcane that allows you to add a spell to your spell list, for those MUST have spells. Sorry, I don't remember the name of the feat or the prerequisites.

Isn't that the new arcana ability of the Warmage?


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Spacelard wrote:
Pierce Coady wrote:


Hmmmm. So I can communicate with the summoned monster enough to bring it to this plane and tell it to attack a specific target in a room of potential targets but then it will ignore me because I don't speak Celestial Hippogryph? Thats probably RAW, as all things are possible with magic, but I think I will continue to let my players communicate with any monster they can summon. I appreciate the feedback

Yep. That is why the language Celestial is on the list and why Linguistics is a dandy skill for summoners.

actually thats the kicker, they dont automatically speak celestial anymore, check the pathfinder celestial/infernal templates. That was according to staff intentionally removed.

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