
Merellin |
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As the title says, There are 4 full arcane casters and 1 full psychic caster, The Wizard, Sorcerer, Arcanist, Witch and Psychic. Out of these five potential reality warping classes, Which ones are your favorites?
This thread came from my wanting to finally give non divine full casters another try, I tried a Arcanist up to level 6 once but thats my only full caster who was not a cleric, So I'm looking for opinions on the 4 full arcane casters and the Psychic to see what people like best of them, To try and help me decide on what to try!

DeathlessOne |
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Technically, there are TWO full psychic casters, but that's a technicality with the sorcerer and a bloodline making their spells psychic spells. Well, three if you use an arcanist to nab a sorcerer bloodline.
As for my favorite? Depends on the circumstances and what I am trying to do. If it is to just play as a single class, no multiclass, I'd pick the Arcanist without hesitation. Between exploits and archetypes, you can cherry pick some of the best wizard/sorcerer features and, while you won't be as good at them as you would have been if you specialized, the versatility involved just hits the right spot for me.

Melkiador |
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It depends on what I am trying to get out of it.
Versatility: Arcanist can quickly swap to any spell in his spellbook with Quick Study. He's the "Shrodinger's Wizard" made reality.
Blaster: Sorcerer has the damage buffs and the spells per day, while still being able to know some good utility spells on the side.
Debuffer: Witch can hex all adventuring day long and has spells to supplement where the hexes don't cover.
Wizard: A good all-rounder. Personally, I'd rather be arcanist most of the time, but the wizard multiclasses better.
Psion: I don't see an appeal in this one. It feels like a worse version of the sorcerer.

Joynt Jezebel |
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Witch can hex all adventuring day long and has spells to supplement where the hexes don't cover.
Melkiador is always worth reading for insightful comment.
Witch is my favourite class. I usually play casters and the fact witches can use hexes all day long as Melkiador puts is a big part of the class's appeal.
They have so much stamina and start off so much better.
Some sensible individual said on another thread the very best class features, were, in order-
1 Full Casting
2 Summoners Eidelon
3 Witch Hexes.
Witches have both 1 and 3.

Sysryke |
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I'm partial to Sorcerer for the inbuilt flavor that comes from bloodlines. I also prefer the consistency of spontaneous casting.
Arcanist tempts me, but can be a bit complex. Versatility for the win, but fewer spell slots.
I quite enjoy a Witch's familiar, as well as the hexes, I just wish they had a little more offensive oomph. Part of that depends on how much splat you have access to, and/or 3pp.
If you want to be a specialist in a school of magic, then Wizard's are absolutely the best.
I don't know enough about Psychic to opine, but that may say something about the class, if it's failed to capture my attention after all these years.
Basically, it's a matter of choosing the right tool for the job, and that depends on the type of character you like to build. I build for theme first usually. On that metric:
1.Sorcerer
2.Witch
3.Wizard
4.Arcanist
5.Psychic

Joynt Jezebel |
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I quite enjoy a Witch's familiar, as well as the hexes, I just wish they had a little more offensive oomph. Part of that depends on how much splat you have access to, and/or 3pp.
It is obvious you have not played with me or another player experienced in playing witches. :P
Just considering Paizo publications w/o third party witches are excellent offensively. They can devastate individuals with hexes and cackle. Then the hexes are still there for the next encounter.
For those problems hexes can't solve, they have spells. Which last longer as you often use hexes instead.

![]() |
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I've not played either an arcanist or a psychic, so can't speak about those. I've not played a wizard to high level in Pathfinder (my PFS diviner only ever got to 3rd level, so never got to start the harrower PrC I was aiming at for her).
I have played a sorcerer to 10th level and witch to 14th level in PFS. The sorcerer was primarily a blaster with a smattering of other spells (enchantment and summoning from his serpentine bloodline, and basic personal buffs like mirror image). He was almost more "diplomancer" than spellcaster, who acquired land and titles during his career--despite being a obvious foreigner (nagaji) in Taldor.
The witch was interesting because I gave her an archetype (white-haired witch) that gave up one of the class's signature abilities (hexes). The big challenge with her was keeping the hair schtick useful and relevant with only a half-BAB class. Around level 9 or so, she had finally learned enough potent offensive spells that she rarely ever used her hair in combat again except to provide flanking to others, and make the occasional AoO (both with hefty reach). She didn't really specialize in any particular kinds of spells, but her spellbook did end up having a few distinct groups of spells:
* "Fix this problem tomorrow" spells (remove blindness, remove curse, etc., and eventually even raise dead). With the exception of heal, she rarely prepared these unless she already had a patient to treat.
* Mobility (fly, overland travel, dimension door).
* Nasty tricks that she had experienced as the victim at some point (blindness, black tentacles, feeblemind) and was petty enough to want to try on others. These spells basically filled the save-or-suck hex itch for her.

Sysryke |
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Sysryke wrote:I quite enjoy a Witch's familiar, as well as the hexes, I just wish they had a little more offensive oomph. Part of that depends on how much splat you have access to, and/or 3pp.It is obvious you have not played with me or another player experienced in playing witches. :P
Just considering Paizo publications w/o third party witches are excellent offensively. They can devastate individuals with hexes and cackle. Then the hexes are still there for the next encounter.
For those problems hexes can't solve, they have spells. Which last longer as you often use hexes instead.
I do have relatively little experience with witches, though I did help one of my friends build a White Haired Witch years ago. I guess what I meant by offensive oomph was straight damage dealing spells. Even when it's not the most optimal choice, it bothers me that every casting class doesn't have at least one damage dealing cantrip/orison.
Witch offense, at least at the first few glances, seems to be more geared towards debuff and control effects.

Azothath |
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1) Wizard (Diviner) the feats point to another school like evocation
2) Wizard (likely Diviner) multiclass into Monk-arch-flowing or Cleric-arch-VarPriest.
3) Wizard (Evoker)
4) Wizard (Conjurer)
5) Wizard (Enchanter or Illusionist)
6) Paladin multiclass with Bard or Wizard
7) Arcanist
8) Gunslinger(pistolero, musket master, or bolt ace) super simple - pew pew!
9) Cleric with side multiclass (as I'm playing a support character with flavor!)...
10) Psychic
11) Witch
12) the other ones...
A priest, a minister, and a rabbit walk into a bar. The bartender looks at the rabbit and asks, "what'll ye have?" The rabbit says, "I don't know, I'm just hare due to autocarrot."

Joynt Jezebel |
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Joynt Jezebel wrote:It is obvious you have not played with me or another player experienced in playing witches. :P
For those problems hexes can't solve, they have spells. Which last longer as you often use hexes instead.
I do have relatively little experience with witches, though I did help one of my friends build a White Haired Witch years ago. I guess what I meant by offensive oomph was straight damage dealing spells. Even when it's not the most optimal choice, it bothers me that every casting class doesn't have at least one damage dealing cantrip/orison.
Witch offense, at least at the first few glances, seems to be more geared towards debuff and control effects.
I left some of my original text there for emphasis.
Other full arcane spellcasters certainly have more offensive options. There are a goodly number of very good offensive spells available to a witch- Web, Stinking Cloud, Lightning Bolt and Black Tentacles for example. I could not give a stuff about my limited ability to do HPs of damage.
Imagine a combat where our parties front line fighters take on a powerful monster with Misfortune on it, our Fighters have Fortune and Protective Luck used on them.
My Witch is Cackling maniacally to keep the hexes working and everyone else is cackling maniacally at the monsters attempts to do anything. It matters naught how many HP it has. It takes a fair while to do and won't work every time, but it does not cost a single spell slot.

Claxon |
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I always like the versatility of the arcanist.\
Having the opportunity to know all the spells, but "prepare" the ones you wanted to use that day was the goodness of being a sorcerer and a wizard at the same time.
How many fireballs do I want today? I don't know, as many as I have 3rd level slots, maybe. But I might also want to caste Haste.

Melkiador |
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I would pick Arcanist. They have plenty of flexibility for casting spells and the quick study exploit all but seals the deal. Their downside is them needing a 2nd ability score, charisma, for some of their abilities.
Thankfully, most of those abilities are optional and among the less powerful options. About the only thing you really "need" charisma for is your limit of Consume Spells per day. And unless you are playing some specific archetypes, you would rarely want to do that anyway.
So, you can dump Charisma to 7 with many powerful builds, but you are limiting yourself away from some other options.

Sysryke |
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1) Wizard (Diviner) the feats point to another school like evocation
2) Wizard (likely Diviner) multiclass into Monk-arch-flowing or Cleric-arch-VarPriest.
3) Wizard (Evoker)
4) Wizard (Conjurer)
5) Wizard (Enchanter or Illusionist)
6) Paladin multiclass with Bard or Wizard
7) Arcanist
8) Gunslinger(pistolero, musket master, or bolt ace) super simple - pew pew!
9) Cleric with side multiclass (as I'm playing a support character with flavor!)...
10) Psychic
11) Witch
12) the other ones...A priest, a minister, and a rabbit walk into a bar. The bartender looks at the rabbit and asks, "what'll ye have?" The rabbit says, "I don't know, I'm just hare due to autocarrot."
Ha! I love a good pun.
Your list is a nice insight into your thoughts, but did you pay attention to the limits and intent of the OP's original question? The only classes under consideration here are the five first named in the original post.

Sysryke |
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Sysryke wrote:Joynt Jezebel wrote:It is obvious you have not played with me or another player experienced in playing witches. :P
For those problems hexes can't solve, they have spells. Which last longer as you often use hexes instead.
I do have relatively little experience with witches, though I did help one of my friends build a White Haired Witch years ago. I guess what I meant by offensive oomph was straight damage dealing spells. Even when it's not the most optimal choice, it bothers me that every casting class doesn't have at least one damage dealing cantrip/orison.
Witch offense, at least at the first few glances, seems to be more geared towards debuff and control effects.
I left some of my original text there for emphasis.
Other full arcane spellcasters certainly have more offensive options. There are a goodly number of very good offensive spells available to a witch- Web, Stinking Cloud, Lightning Bolt and Black Tentacles for example. I could not give a stuff about my limited ability to do HPs of damage.
Imagine a combat where our parties front line fighters take on a powerful monster with Misfortune on it, our Fighters have Fortune and Protective Luck used on them.
My Witch is Cackling maniacally to keep the hexes working and everyone else is cackling maniacally at the monsters attempts to do anything. It matters naught how many HP it has. It takes a fair while to do and won't work every time, but it does not cost a single spell slot.
Absolutely no argument. All good points and great tactics. I just sometimes get fixated on the base numbers. It's like a fighter or barbarian player rolling a schmidt ton of damage dice. Sometimes it's nice to just smash/blast the crap out of enemies. In that case, I'm less likely to play the Witch, unless I've got a very specific build/concept I want to play. For instance, I'd love to play/explore a Winter Witch at some point. Which class I play depends on party needs and/or which play style itch I want to scratch. Witches are amazing! If we're staying in the Arcane full casters though, Sorcerer fits more of my personal starting character ideas.

Sysryke |
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If the metric is about total power, my list changes. Not with any great authority, but from what I've gleaned from these threads and play for many years.
1. Wizard
2. Arcanist (swap one and two if power to you is versatility/reliability as opposed to theoretical output)
3. Witch [contends for top spot if you measure power by tactics and stamina. Falls lower if considering total theoretical spell access. Sorry Jezebel ); ]
4. Sorcerer (limited spells known keeps them off the podium. Not to derail, but I've often wondered if them being a 3/4 BAB class would fix the Wizard/Sorcerer disparity?)
5. Psychic (not enough info, but I've always been given the impression that, while Paizo did it better, psychic magic has never had consistent support, and only 4e managed to do them with any balance).

Azothath |
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Azothath wrote:...
12) the other ones...
Ha! I love a good pun.
Your list is a nice insight into your thoughts, but did you pay attention to the limits and intent of the OP's original question? The only classes under consideration here are the five first named in the original post.
Of course.
I did try for a humorous and practical post for an on topic list of what I like and what to try (see the OP's post).The Rules Forum is a bit more orderly and on-topic as it helps there lest thing get too chaotic or personal. Have fun and practice what you preach (or at least try).

Joynt Jezebel |
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3. Witch [contends for top spot if you measure power by tactics and stamina. Falls lower if considering total theoretical spell access. Sorry Jezebel );
No need to apologize. I am quite OK with people disagreeing and having their own favourite classes.
What you say about the Witches more restricted spell list is very much a consideration.
The majority opinion when people make tier lists is the very best arcane casters are wizards, arcanists and sorcerer [razmiran priests] and these are pretty much the most powerful classes overall. I agree totally with this if and only if, iff to a logician, you are considering only the relative power of the classes at level 20 or near it. Witches are a bit behind but by no means a bad choice.
I admit singing the praise of witches is something of a soapbox issue.
There was a now fairly old survey conducted by Piazo that looked at the level campaigns usually reach and very few get to level 20 or anything near. If you look at matters thinking more about the level your character will reach witches look better.
Second, most people who post on these boards seem not to know what a well played witch can do, or if they know don't mention it.
4. Sorcerer (limited spells known keeps them off the podium. Not to derail, but I've often wondered if them being a 3/4 BAB class would fix the Wizard/Sorcerer disparity?)
I don't think that would do much. A pure arcane caster should avoid close combat like the plague. Being able to do a bit more damage with a crossbow or a few HPs more in melee before dying isn't going to change much.
Changing things so sorcerers, or all spontaneous casters, get 2nd level spells at level 3 like prepared caster, and so on for other spell levels, will definitely do more. It might do too much. I think the full prepared casters would still be better at the highest levels for the same reason they are now.

Melkiador |
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You can partly experience 3/4 BAB sorcerer with a dragon disciple build. Prestigious spellcaster can make up for the lost spell levels. I don’t feel like the extra BAB makes that huge of a difference. Spellcasting is so strong that you will always put all of your resources into it. So baring very generous or lucky rolling methods, you won’t be needing the extra BAB very often. The extra hp is nice though.
Witch spellcasting loses some versatility, but the hexes are mostly scaling spells. So they lose versatility in one place to gain it in another. And the spells you are “missing” can be made up for by the patron. The swine hex really rounds them out at level 8. Between slumber and swine, few enemies remain a threat.