Nejrael's page

I have been tinkering a bit with a system that might or might not work. But I would like someone else to take a look at it as well to see if I am on the right track.

Here goes:

Before a ship encounter in space the GM rolls a d20 (+1 for every ship after the first) and follows this table:

1: 0
2-4: 1 weapon, 1 expansion bay
5-10: 1 weapon, 1 System, 2 Expansion Bay
10-15: 2 weapon, 1 System, 2 Expansion Bay
15-19: 2 weapon, 2 System, 2 Expansion Bay, 1 Shield, 1 drift engine
20: 3 weapon, 2 System, 2 Expansion Bay, 1 Shield, 1 Power Core, 1
drift engine
(Add +1 module for every 5 tiers (or encounter level) divided equally starting with weapons then system and last Expansion Bays)

DM rolls 1d20 + modifiers (as mentioned above) in secret before the fight so he knows how much salvage is available to the players if they succeed.
During the encounter he explains the cinematics what happens to the ships and if it seems like something can be salvaged from it.
After the encounter he decides from the results whats on the "menu" and the players may now rub their greedy little hands.
If it's not enough modules (f.ex. you roll a 14 and there is only 1 weapon installed on the ship) The next module in line get's an extra pick and so forth.
Roll Engineering or Profession: Salvager\Engineer DC 15 + ship tier.
A success means 1 + tier\5 (ECL) modules is salvaged +1 more for every 5 you beat the DC. Takes 1 hour per module to be salvaged.
Players can then choose which components\modules to save from the alotted "menu".

Not available for salvaging:
Armor (any\DM's discretion)
Cargo holds (it just an empty room, although it's content can be salvaged)

This probably has a lot of exploits. But when I checked that against a tier 5 encounter (single ship) for a tier 5 group it looked decent on paper.If the GM rolls a 10 (for the sake of argument) a lvl 5 engineer probably has around 15 in engineering at this point so on an average roll of 10 they would recieve 3 modules. The modules with any value (shields, weapons etc.) cost around 8-12 BP so the sell value would be around 2-3 BP unless they choose to install the thing, but then they need to get rid of something else on the ship anyway. I have not checked this against higher tiers. It just an idea for now. I have also been thinking about cargo space and I based it on sizing vs number of cargo holds. So with weapons I did this:

Weapon:
Light needs 2 Cargo Holds and weighs BPx200kg
Heavy needs 4 Cargo Holds and weighs BPx300kg
Capital needs 6 Cargo Holds and weighs BPx400kg
Spinal-Mount needs 8 Cargo Holds and weighs BPx500kg

Other modules:
Tiny needs 1 cargo holds and weighs BPx50kg
Small needs 1 cargo holds and weighs BPx100kg
Medium needs 2 cargo holds and weighs BPx200kg
Large needs 4 cargo holds and weighs BPx300kg
Huge needs 6 cargo holds and weighs BPx400kg
Colossal needs 8 cargo holds and weighs BPx500kg

Modules that has no size is considered small (at DM's discretion)

The whole idea is that the ship hull is not really worth anything since anything can practically be 3D printed. Any shipyard can make a specific body but they just don't because of copyright (or whatever legal reasons).

At least it's the start of idea that doesn't seem to complicated and hopefully not too exploitative. I would like some constructive criticism on this. I don't have too much experience with Starfinder, but I have too much with Pathfinder. Since english is not my native language I hope you can forgive spelling errors and also if this is to confusing to understand.

It's handy for taking out sentries quietly.

I just wonder, this might have been mentioned in other posts but not to my knowledge. What does a gunslinger do in a major bossfight? If there is only one huge creature and no mini's around, will he then rely on his critical hits and trying to kill himself now and then just to be able to use his class abilities?

And I do understand the breatdown on whining when it comes to kill stealing, but on the other hand this is fueling his class abilities (not that whining is good anyway). When he is denied to use his class abilities because other players use sound tactical moves, you know it's a flaw in the system.

This is the reason I like the ki pool idea instead.

Seems like people are more hung up on the class names rather than the actual abilities. If they want their iconic Ninja to be this class then let them, personally I don't see a problem with it. I used the alchemist class to make a ju ju witch doctor, which fit perfectly with the spirit of King Bonbon in a tiny jar. It was formed like a little gorilla head (that was my mutagen). It is many ways to use a class and flavor it differently, don't let the name of it stop you. You can without problems play the ninja class and say you are a western thief with some mysterious power you have learned from a book you stole. Just remember that in-game you don't show your credentials. "Hey 'ers my papers. Peter Haggins lvl 3 Ninja from Cornwall at your service."

Just my nickel\dime\2 cents etc..

Nejreal wrote:

.........you probably would be better of taking just 5 levels in this class and go fighter for the rest......

you couldn't go fighter, only gunslinger.

Thank you for the playtest.

True, then ranger then.

I am REALLY confused reading through this...

Also, how are you exceeding your BAB? At lvl 11 you have 3 shots... 4 with Rapid Shot, yet in round 2 of the Devourer you shot 5 times.

"Gunslinger Full Attacks D1 in range for touch AC. AC: 22 Dmg: 22, AC: 30 Dmg: 23, AC: 33 Dmg: 19, AC: 18 Dmg: 22, AC: 25 Dmg: 18"

EDIT: Forgot the bonus feats at 4 and 8.

Mage cast haste in round 1.

Note for Messrs. Buhlman and Radney-MacFarland:

Lots of people seem to be thinking you have to choose deeds instead of getting all you qualify for.

I see your point, when reading the description it states the you can use all the deeds you qualify for. But then again on the Gunslinger ability tree you can see the he gains deeds more than one time through the levels indicating that he has to choose various deeds that he qualifies for. So we chose the latter for this playtest.

Gunslinger playtest

Unfortunately I did not know about the devs ban on Deadly Aim until someone posted it on the lvl 6 playtest. But it is in here.
Every attack made by the gunslinger is with Deadly Aim.

Party consist of A ranger, mage, cleric and gunslinger

2 encounters on 6th lvl and 2 on 11th lvl

Gunslinger 6th
Str: 14
Dex: 16 (20 with belt)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 8

Init: +7
For: +6 Ref: +14 Wil: +8
AC: 28
HP: 87

Feats:
Extra Grit
Deadly Aim
Weapon Focus: Pistol
Weapon Specialization: Pistol
Rapid Reload
Lightning Reload
Signature Deed (Lightning Reload)
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot

Deeds:
Quick Clear
Gunslinger Initiative
Targeting
Covering Shot

Items:
Mithril Shirt +2
Pistol +3 of Distance
Ring of Protection +2
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Belt of Dexterity +4
Buckler +2
Scimitar +1 Keen
Cloak Of Resistance +2
Efficient Quiver
10 Flaming Bullets
100 Normal Bullets

Attack (Deadly Aim bonus in parenthesis)
Pistol +21\+16\11(+18\+13\+9) 1d8+10(+16)
Pistol Rapid Shot 19\+19\+14\+9 (+17\+17\+12\+7)
Scimitar +13\+8\+5 1d6+3

I have now chosen a few extra feats learning from past experience. With the Lightning Reload feat you are able to reload as a free action for the cost of 1 grit, the Signature Deed gives reduces the cost of one your deed by 1 point of grit to a minimum of 0. So now he can full attack with his pistol as long as he has access to free actions. So Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot where natural after this.

I also chose two deeds I might spend some grit on for a change, enter Targeting and Covering Shot. I thought that some status attacks might come in handy. More on those later.

The items that I chose where mostly upgrades from earlier, but I added the Distance enhancement on the pistol which gives you the ability to increase the range of your touch attack, since Distance increases the base range of a projectile weapon. With an Efficient Quiver you can store at least 60 bullets or more depending on the DM. Of course this could be reworked into an Efficient Gun belt or similar but that is just fluff anyway, the mechanics would stay the same. The buckler became a prized object and now gives an extra 3 points of Armor Class with no penalties. I also bought some flaming bullets, but forgot that I did, so I never used them.
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1st Encounter 2 Devourers (D1 and D2) from the Bestiary

No surprise round
Initiative is rolled

Round 1
Mage pulls up scroll of haste and cast it.

Gunslinger moves towards D1 but is still out of touch attack range. Uses Targeting to confuse, hits AC 23 and misses

Ranger Full Attacks D2. AC: 24 miss, AC: 23 miss, AC: 29 Dmg: 14 and AC: 19 miss.

D1 Cast spectral hand and moves toward the Gunslinger.

D2 Moves towards the Ranger and cast Confusion on the Gunslinger, Ranger and Cleric. All saves are good.

Cleric cast bless.

Round 2
Mage cast wall of fire covering D1 and D2, goes through SR on D2 and deals 50 pts of damage.
Then he quickens a Magic Missile but fails the SR check.

Gunslinger Full Attacks D1 in range for touch AC. AC: 22 Dmg: 22, AC: 30 Dmg: 23, AC: 33 Dmg: 19, AC: 18 Dmg: 22, AC: 25 Dmg: 18

Ranger Full Attacks D2 AC: 26 Dmg: 37, AC: 28 Dmg: 20, AC: 36 Dmg: 19, AC: 20 miss, AC: 8 miss

D1 moves into the Gunslinger and uses Devour Soul, crits and does 117 points of damage. Gunslinger is now dead. We ended the encounter there.
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2nd Encounter 2 Gugs (G1 and G2) from Bestiary 2

Gugs surprises party except the ranger
Surprise Round
G1 moves into Lunge reach
G2 moves in Lunge reach
Ranger cast Barkskin on himself

The rest of the party rolls initiative

Round 1
G1 Full Attacks the Ranger with Lunge giving them an effective range of 20.
AC:27 miss, AC:28 Dmg:8, AC:31 Dmg:12+13 rend, AC:28 Dmg:13, AC:26 miss

G2 Full Attacks the Mage
AC:31 Dmg:18, AC:Crit Dmg:33, AC:28 Dmg:17+11 rend, AC:23 miss, AC:23 miss

Gunslinger uses Targeting as a swift action in order to confuse G2 which is pounding on the poor mage and Full Attacks with Point Blank Shot. AC:33 Dmg:25, AC:32 Dmg:22, AC:15 Dmg:20, AC:21 Dmg:25

Mage casts Haste.

Ranger Full Attacks G2 AC:21 miss, AC:31 Dmg:18, AC:27 Dmg:14, AC:34 Dmg:12, AC:22 miss, AC:26 Dmg:18. G2 is now dead.

Cleric Channels and heals the wounded for 28 points, then cast a quickened Cure Moderate wounds one the Mage restoring additional 21 Hp

Round 2
G1 5ft in so the whole party is within normal reach (15ft) Full Attacks the Gunslinger.
AC:33 Dmg:20, AC:30 Dmg:16, AC:24miss, AC:Crit Dmg:32+14 rend, AC:20 miss

Gunslinger on his last 5 Hp tries to tumble away, fails his acrobatics roll. G1 Hits and crits on hi Attack Of Opportunity and deals 28 Hp. Gunslinger is now temporary dead.

Mage cast Greater Invisibility after succeeding on a concentration check, and moves out of range.

Ranger tumbles out of melee range but fails, the Attack Of Opportunity fails as well. He then use Vital Strike to attack G1 AC: 28 Dmg: 32.

Cleric cast Breath Of Life on Gunslinger and heals him for 48 Hp, and then quickens a Cure Moderate Wounds and giving him an additional 26 Hp.

G1 Full Attacks Cleric
AC:24 miss, AC:23 miss, AC:29 Dmg:16, AC:28 Dmg:15, AC:29 Dmg:12

Gunslinger uses Targeting to confuse just to be sure, and Full Attacks.
AC:21 Dmg:24, AC:27 Dmg:23, AC:31 Dmg:19, AC:26 Dmg:18, AC:15 Dmg:18
Gug is now dead.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conclusion

Still boring and very static, but the damage rate is ok. And he almost never miss, making the covering shot redundant, also if Covering Shot would be used he would only get one shot the next round since Covering Shot is an immediate action and Lightning Reload is a free action. And for those who doesn't know what I mean, an Immediate action uses your next turns fast actions like free and swift. In retrospect I could have done a couple of things different in the combat. When I used Targeting shot or the second time I should have used the remaining attacks on the other foe. And also Instead of tumbling out of melee I should have delayed to after the cleric.

As I mentioned above he is very static, but if you build a Gunslinger with the Shot On The Run feat or similar you will probably be lagging in the damage area. I don't think dual wielding is an option at the time since you need a hand for reloading every shot you take. Of course it might be a viable option when multi-barreled and revolvers appears, but that is jus speculation at this point. In the end I think he has far to little tricks up his sleeve and you probably would be better of taking just 5 levels in this class and go fighter for the rest.
So in my opinion at this very moment this should be an archetype with a follow up prestige class, but time will tell if the Gunslinger will get enough support to be an exciting class on it's own. I really hope so because I am fond of the idea.

Sorry sir you cant use deadly aim with guns. The Devs have said so in these test forums.

Do you think it would have made a big difference in the encounters you played through without it?

It would increase the duration of the encounters with a round or 2 depending on the ranger and other various factors.

Gunslinger playtest

Party consist of A ranger, mage, cleric and gunslinger

2 encounters on 6th lvl

Gunslinger 6th lvl
Str: 14
Dex: 16 (18 with belt)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 8

Init: +6
For: +4 Ref: +9 Wil: +5 (+6 vs Fear)
AC: 23
HP: 49

Feats:
Extra Grit
Deadly Aim
Weapon Focus: Pistol
Weapon Specialization: Pistol
Rapid Reload

Deeds:
Quick Clear
Gunslinger Initiative

Items:
Mithril Shirt +1
Pistol +1
Ring of Protection +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Belt of Dexterity +2
Buckler +1
MW Scimitar

Attack (Deadly Aim bonus in parenthesis)
Pistol +13(11) 1d8+7(+11)
Scimitar +8\+3 1d6+1

I chose the Extra Grit feat to extend the usage of special abilities, which was rather redundant at this lvl. I barely ever got to use the deeds I had chosen, since one is fixing your only magical weapon and the other one is active at all times. Weapon focus, weapon specialization and deadly aim to enhance the combat abilities. We chose to use deadly aim even if it doesn't (by the book) work with touch attacks. But we believe that will be reworked somehow in the future. Rapid reload was rather useful since it lets you fire a shot every round. As mentioned above I chose the deeds with some consideration (and without). Quick cleaning to fix the broken magical gun that you probably only own one of at this time, and Gunslinger Initiative. A static bonus to initiative is rather nice, but the quick draw effect of this deed is rather useless. You can draw your gun when rolling initiative witch gives you no other benefits except from looking "cinematically" fast since you can't fire the gun until it's your turn anyway.

Items I chose where based mostly on Armor Class to enhance survivability. A magic +1 buckler is masterwork and gives no armor check penalty and you still can use your hand for reloading, giving you an extra 2 points of AC.

As of the other characters, they where rather generic 6th lvl the ranger was archery spec and the cleric had the healing and good. The wizard was a universalist.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

1st Encounter Babau from the bestiary.
Babau surprises party and teleport closer to party into reach with the ranger.

Initiative is rolled.

Round 1
Gunslinger moves to position within touch attack range of the pistol and fires a shot using Deadly Aim. Hit AC 19 and does 18 points of damage where 10 is reduced by DR which will be calculated from now on.

Babau use special ability and creates darkness.

Cleric moves to gunslinger and cast align weapon.

Ranger 5ft away from the Babau and full attack. Since he ignores concealment due to improved precise shot he may fire without any miss chance. With the use of rapid shot he fires 3 times and he crits on the manyshot and does 28 points of damage. Then he hits AC 15 and 9 on the two other shots and misses.

Mage casts haste.

Round 2
Gunslinger reloads as a move action due to the rapid reload feat and fires one shot, hoping for a shot in the dark (sorry for the intended pun). It misses due to concealment.

Babau moves into melee with the ranger, mage and cleric, to attack the ranger. He cant 5ft because of difficult terrain. AC 19 and a miss.

Cleric 5ft out of melee and cast bless.

Ranger 5ft out of melee and full attacks with deadly aim and rapid shot. AC: 29 Dmg: 1, AC: 30 Dmg: 0, AC: 9 a miss and AC 12 another miss.

Mage 5ft out of melee and cast magic missile overcomes SR and does 10 points of damage.

Round 3
Gunslinger reloads and fires. It misses again due to concealment.

Babau 5ft into melee again and full attacks the cleric. AC: 22 misses but AC: 23 does 12 points of damage.

Cleric 5ft out of melee and cast Cure Moderate Wounds on herself and is completely fine. 14 Hp is healed.

Ranger 5ft out of melee and full attacks with deadly aim and rapid shot. AC: 22 Dmg: 6, AC: 15 miss, AC: 19 Dmg: 5, and AC 16 miss.

Mage cast's another Magic Missile overcomes SR and deals 11 points of damage killing the Babau.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

2nd Encounter a Medusa from the bestiary

Medusa surprises party except the ranger.

Initiative is rolled for the Medusa and ranger

Medusa moves towards the party to make use of her petrifying gaze. The whole party makes their saves.

Ranger fires one arrow. AC: 27 Dmg: 15

The rest of the party rolls initiative

Round 1

Medusa full attacks the ranger with her bow. AC: 24 Dmg: 5 and 12 is a miss.

Mage is averting his eyes giving him a 50% chance not to be affected by the gaze attack. It succeeds. Then he moves out of range of the gaze attack and uses a wand of Scorching Ray. He roll his miss chance due to the averting of his eyes and succeeds. Then he hits AC 10 touch wich is a miss.

Gunslinger averts his eyes successfully, moves away from the gaze attack and fires. But the miss chance ruins the shot.

Ranger averts his eyes unsuccessfully and rolls a new save which he makes. Moves out of the gaze attack and casts Entangle trying to immobilize the Medusa, but she makes her save.

Cleric averts her eyes successfully moves into total cover and channels. 6 Hp is healed on the ranger.

Round 2

Medusa moves out of the entangle and in gaze attack range, attacks the mage but misses.

Mage averting his eyes unsuccessfully makes his save, and cast Magic Missile dealing 11 points of damage. The moves away from the gaze attack.

Gunslinger averts his eyes successfully moves in total cover and reloades.

Ranger averts his eyes unsuccessfully but saves. He full attacks the medusa ingnores the miss chance due to improved precise shot. AC: 22 Dmg: 10, AC: 22 Dmg: 13, AC: 26 Dmg:14. Then 5ft back.

Cleric moves into position and readies her crossbow.

Round 3

Medusa moves into melee attack of the ranger and uses her snakebites. AC: 14 is a miss.

Mage moves into position and uses his was of Scorching Rays hits AC: 16 Dmg: 8 fire.

Gunslinger moves out of cover and fires into melee from a distance of 35 feet, so no touch attack.. AC: 12 a miss.

Ranger averts eyes successfully and full attacks the Medusa. AC: 19 Dmg: 9 Killing the Medusa.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Conclusion:

At this point I found out that the gunslinger is rather straight forward, and a bit boring. Of course if I had chosen different deeds like Deadeye or Pistolwhip I might have been using those one or two times, but not much more. And in any case I could maximum have used it around 5 times before I had to put my life one the line or get a random critical to increase my grit again. You do decent damage but nothing overwhelming, and you only get one attack. Of course this can be circumvented by have more than one gun and quick draw two weapon fighting etc. But then you would need a lot of feats later on and of course the cash to spend. Mostly for the single hander a round consists of reloading and shooting.

There's two reasons you could probably do this if you already had them out.

1)There's no action listed to switch something from one hand to another. Considering you can draw a weapon mid charge, you should be able to just flick it from one hand to the other for free.

If you have multiple attack because of BaB i guess.

2) There's no mechanics for being left handed or right handed after 3.5. It seems all characters are ambidextrous. So as long as you're not taking extra attacks with a weapon you should be able to just throw left and right. You can after all hold two weapons in your hand and just attack with one with no penalty

Then it falls under the two weapon fighting rules and full attack, which is what I am wondering about. Hope some of the authors see this.

You could also just get quick draw.

Quick Draw does not work with splash weapons. Unless some errata says otherwise.

Some say it's a standard action to throw a splash weapon, but in the core book it does not state anything but a ranged touch attack (that I have found). So if you are already holding two alchemist fires, can you throw them both in a single round as a full attack action?

First of all I really don't oppose this as I see this as innovation and creative thinking. Which is good in my book, since the idea did not start as a cheezy rule breaking plan, but as a little joke. "Proper tank with two shields, most would get the idea at first sight". The feats was something that he was going to take anyway since originally the idea was a sword and board warrior. And he has always played the standard acrobatic 1 sword kind of character and wanted a radical change. From 1 sword to 2 shields is change.

Some of you stated that you must use shield bash in your off hand only.
So in other word if you don't have any weapons at all, only 1 spiked shield and you hit someone with it, it is still an off-hand attack?
I hope some of the moderators would notice this thread after a while to get some clearance on this. Because that really doesn't make sense. Then again it states: "You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield using it as an off hand weapon." By RAW it is not restricting you, it gives you an option. If it had been stated that you must use your off hand to shield bash it's a different thing, but the word here is can. And there is no point in the improvised weapon feats since a spiked shield is a martial weapon already.

Of course if you go by reality, fighting with two shields wouldn't make much sense either. But this is fantasy role-playing, if a warrior of some sort picks up two shields and bashes some skulls with them I really can't see the problem. You have much weirder weapons out there than a pair of shields. And to satisfy the lack of imagination on some of you: a shield does not have to be a "shield". How many times have you changed the look of a weapon or armor to have a different look that fits your character. The short sword is slightly curved, the shuriken is now small throwing needles etc... What if the shields where two big banded mail gauntlets that reaches all the way up to the shoulder with "shield-wings" on the elbow and spikes to attack with?

Its just one way of picturing this, and there is plenty more. But yes I will agree that the practicality might not be there at all times. Drinking potions or changing weapons is a heavy ordeal, it's still a move action to take them off and on, so in other words it takes his entire round if he wants to equip or loosen them. Also the shield bonuses do not stack, the enhancement bonuses do not stack etc.

And then raising of the "can you gain benefits from two magical shields at all" question. Well I have an argument for it and a solution for the argument against it.

There is no place that states (to my knowledge, please correct me if I am wrong) that you can wield two weapons at the same time and gain benefits from the magical abilities either, but that is a given?

On the other hand.
As it states in the beginning of the shield spike entry: "These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon" then you can enchant one shield defensively and one shield offensively as a weapon. I would believe that the problem would be solved on that part.

There is a friend of mine who wants to play a fighter with two spiked shields.

How does the Enchanting on this works. Do you enchant the shield as a defensive item and enchant the spikes as an offensive item? Or do you have to choose if the whole item (spiked shield) must be either defensive or offensive?

And yes we know that shield mastery gives you an enhancement bonus to hit and damage equal to the shield's defensive rating, and that this does not stack with the enhancement bonus on the shield spikes (same type of bonus). But a +2 shield and +1 flaming spikes would be rather nice.

And another thing, do you take weapon focus shield spikes or spiked shield heavy (or light if that's your choice)?

Wouldn't it be nice if you could get your hands on all the location info or guides in one big book? Instead of a bunch of small "handouts".

With everything put nicely together so it's a bit easier to find where stuff is, like regional feats, regional traits, specific info about places etc... I would pay for it.

I'm just wondering. The wielding part, is that a part of the spell casting? If so I still don't see the problem, it is possible to wield a great sword in one hand you just get a -4 penalty to do so (if my memory serves me right). So as long as you are not attacking and casting a spell at the exact same time (which is basically impossible) there is no problem. Letting your hand go wielding the great sword in a threatening manner while casting the swift action or standard action spell, free action grip it again and hack your enemies to pieces.

I was planning to fill the spymaster\royal assassin roles. Is it even possible to combine 2 roles? And would the Leadership have something to say for any other than the ruler?

I used FFG - Traps & Treachery alot but I also liked the BAS - Arms & Armor. The FFG - Steam & Sorcery never got tested properly but I gave it a small try with much enjoyment.

And why did my avatar turn into a smurf with a trumpet?

I truly agree with you RicoTheBold, it does need a clarification (liked your analogy with smurfs and gnomes btw).

If I can recall right, fast bomb does not modify the bomb, YOU create them faster. Precise bomb does not modify the bomb either as it says "when the alchemist throws the bomb". In other word this is an effect that comes into play after the bomb is thrown because of him. Not in the creation process. A nice guideline is: Every discovery that starts with the sentence: "When the alchemist creates a bomb" is not stackable. Because these effects directly modifies the bomb. Then comes the cloud questions. Well they replace the fog cloud ability (smoke bomb), wich also starts with the sentence "When the alchemist creates a bomb".

In other words:

fast+precise+elemental = good to go
fast+precise+fog (of any kind) = good to go
elemental+fog = no go

That is by the book though. Explosive bomb and madness bomb is a rather tricky subject since it seems like it's modifying the bomb, but in the text "it's just there". So I will leave that up to the individual players and their respective GM's\DM's. My suggestion is as following. Explosive bomb can stack with elemental, and madness bomb stack with fogs. Then again it's just a suggestion.

Does the alchemist's level count as caster level when it comes to item creation feats? He does after all gain the brew potion feat.

I just noticed a passage: "Extracts are the mos varied of the three. In many ways, they behave like spelle in potion form, and as such they can be dispelled by effects like dispel magic using the alchemist's level as caster level."

And if it does, does his extracts count on what he can make or does he have to use wands and scrolls?

The sticky bomb should work differently we all agree on that. It is true that 200 points of damage is way too much for a 10 level character. But what if the sticky bomb would do half damage on the second round would that be sufficient? Haven't done the numbers yet, but it might be acceptable and still be something you want to discover.

I also miss more options for the mutagen discoveries. Give it some options not just number crunching. Size increase, small amount of fast healing and damage reduction comes to mind.

There will always be some combination with some classes that would make it rather unpleasant for the representative adversaries. It's almost impossible to avoid. Some things are up to the GM as well. Give the player the no finger if you think it's overpowered. Really can't see the problem. It seems like the GM only works as a host and have nothing to say if it's in the books. Usually in our games the GM has the final word, and if a player discovers something overpowered either by random luck or "sinister" tinkering he usually takes it up with the player in a friendly tone. No point of making so much fuzz out of nothing. Some like it flashy, others like it toned down.

If this doesn't make much sense I will excuse myself by saying that I haven't slept much the last few days. Right now I look like my monkey.

Can't wait until friday to update my alchemist. I am really looking forward to this.

Always possible to make a hand held "mortar\grenade thrower".

The main point of the alchemist is to make him unique and effective at what he does. Right now I agree that he is not the most effective class in the game. But it would be terrible just to make him into an alternative casting class, then you might as well just play a sorcerer or something similar.

When it comes to the point he should be on the same power level as a bard. He should be relatively versatile but also focused. You should have the choice to make him an AOE damager (bombs), melee damager (mutagens), support (extracts) or status effects (poisons). Right now you can only focus on two things: Mutagens and bombs. There is no backup for poisons or extracts, it's just there.

I saw in a different post somewhere that attack spells should be incorporated into poisons, personally I don't think this is a bad idea. Then you get an unique twist on it. And I also agree partially with you that there are many spells that might fit as thrown bottle spells (like an acid flask that count as disintegrate, which was my first idea as well).

But there are so many spells that don't fit in. If you keep the extracts as I mentioned, but could make non magical alchemical items that duplicate a bit weaker effects of spells, that would be something. Because if you can make a bottle of fireball, why bother with the bombs?

Think about a non magical disintegrate that does 5d8 of acid damage with or without splash, your choice. And as long as you have made enough the party throws one each before the enemy come into melee range.
How about slippery goo that duplicates the effect of grease? But then again if you make his stuff non magical you must also make him an extended alchemy list.
And I don't think this will happen in the new version of the class.

The more realistic scenario is, an increased number of extracts, some new discoveries, more discoveries learned, and maybe a research journal. They might remove some of the abilities and make it discoveries instead. I don't think they will fix the mutagen much, sad to say (I hope they do). All in all it won't be much different from what we see now. Still I do like the class. And I say again I really hope they won't turn him into just another casting class. (Would still play him though).

Nejrael wrote:

After playtesting the alchemist I have figured out his description. He is not the labrat you get the feeling of at first glance. He is an adventurer who goes out in the big nasty world to discover new stuff. He is a clever one with a solution to most problems in somewhat unorthodox ways. When you really scrounge the books (and then I mean all the books) for alchemical items you see there are helpful non magical contraptions and alchemical items for almost every situation. Who needs the light spell? He has sunrods, who needs the darkvision spell? He has night drops. Can't get to the top of that building? Grapple shooting crossbow etc. It's not the class abilities that forms most his role, it's his equipment. To me he is an alternative rogue, a jack of all trades, a joker, a wild card. Yes he has certain flaws that stop him in certain areas. But with a good bag of holding and a handy haversack filled with random stuff, many of these obstacles can be countered. There is only one problem, everything he can do the other classes can do as well. At this moment he is a partial rogue with some minor arcane beef and divine healing. Which to me is not a bad idea at all, he just need something to make him unique.

But...EVERYONE can use equipment.

In fact, the alchemist is ironically no better at craft: alchemy then any other class.

That was my point as well.

After playtesting the alchemist I have figured out his description. He is not the labrat you get the feeling of at first glance. He is an adventurer who goes out in the big nasty world to discover new stuff. He is a clever one with a solution to most problems in somewhat unorthodox ways. When you really scrounge the books (and then I mean all the books) for alchemical items you see there are helpful non magical contraptions and alchemical items for almost every situation. Who needs the light spell? He has sunrods, who needs the darkvision spell? He has night drops. Can't get to the top of that building? Grapple shooting crossbow etc. It's not the class abilities that forms most his role, it's his equipment. To me he is an alternative rogue, a jack of all trades, a joker, a wild card. Yes he has certain flaws that stop him in certain areas. But with a good bag of holding and a handy haversack filled with random stuff, many of these obstacles can be countered. There is only one problem, everything he can do the other classes can do as well. At this moment he is a partial rogue with some minor arcane beef and divine healing. Which to me is not a bad idea at all, he just need something to make him unique.

When that is said I would like to issue the problems of bombs.

I don't think the bombs in themselves are the problem. They're good, they just don't have enough options. In my head the alchemist makes a two component mix wich is rather harmless untill he infuses it temporal volatile energy. In other words he pulls out the flask/bottle/container and gives it the little "umph" it needs to make it's rather destructive point, before he throws it towards his adversary. I think it's rather important that the "umph" bit is a swift action so he can actually draw it, "umph" it and throw it in the same round. Maybe even on a later level let him give up to two bombs the little "umph" they need so he can actually throw two in a round if he have them ready in his hands. But then again that is just random thoughts.

Mutagens
I haven't tested this one yet, but I agree with the charisma damage since it keeps it at bay. In other words you don't use it as a standard buff in every fight. You don't want to use it until it's really needed, but then again the "power" you gain is not that impressive, neither on the paper or in game visually.

Extracts
YOU drink it, and something happens to YOU. I think that's a rather important part to remember. I am not to fond of thrown extracts, though I can see the point to some examples. But if you make a hole in the dam it will sooner or later burst. Keep it rather simple, give him a "Research Journal" and he has only the Target: you, and beneficial target: creature per level spells, except it only would work on the person that drinks the actual extract. And yes I say person, it's not the end of the world to give him the possibility to give his extracts to other people as default. If the extract must be used within a day the problem is solved. Something that would make him unique would be to make the extracts "permanent" so to speak. As long as he saves a daily slot to maintain the extract it can go on forever or until used. In that way he could give an extract with shield to the monk who could use it whenever he wanted to. Unless the alchemist stops maintaining the power needed and makes a different one. Just a thought.

Poisons
I don't really know about this, yes I agree with the poison use ability. He got steady hands, done deal. I also agree with the poison resistance, considering how much unhealthy stuff he consumes over the time. But in general poisons should be a choice not something they are all trained in. And it should be given a bigger role if you would go for it.

Discoveries
One every fourth level is a bit harsh, a couple extra. Tone them down if you have to, but give him more. It is not just power it is also flavor, and to me that's more important.

Stuff that people often mention is:

Trap Finding
I think he deserves this, like I said earlier he's an adventurer like all the other player classes.

Evasion
I can see it, dodging a lot of stuff he creates in the field. But it's not mandatory.

Brew Potion
Both yes and no. If he can share his extracts as default I really don't see the point anymore.

Craft: Alchemy
I think this should be his discovery cap. A certain amount of ranks in alchemy to be able to gain a certain discovery.

Unique Extracts
That would be nice, something that no other except the alchemist can create. Something that would define his role. Maybe even the path he is on.

Anyway these are my opinions about the alchemist after I have tried it. I really do like the alchemist and I enjoy his flavor and style. He just needs a little more tweaking, not necessarily much but just enough to get him back on his feets.

To be honest the only spells that should be converted into extracs should be target: self or beneficial creature touched spells. You drink the extracts and you throw the bomb, keep it simple but enjoyable.

Which way did the guard face? Sneaking up behind him is a different matter.

Check out Arcanum an old pc game. It might give you some ideas.