Gunslinger playtest lvl 6


Playtest Results: Round 1


Gunslinger playtest

Party consist of A ranger, mage, cleric and gunslinger

2 encounters on 6th lvl

Gunslinger 6th lvl
Str: 14
Dex: 16 (18 with belt)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 8

Init: +6
For: +4 Ref: +9 Wil: +5 (+6 vs Fear)
AC: 23
HP: 49

Feats:
Extra Grit
Deadly Aim
Weapon Focus: Pistol
Weapon Specialization: Pistol
Rapid Reload

Deeds:
Quick Clear
Gunslinger Initiative

Items:
Mithril Shirt +1
Pistol +1
Ring of Protection +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Belt of Dexterity +2
Buckler +1
MW Scimitar

Attack (Deadly Aim bonus in parenthesis)
Pistol +13(11) 1d8+7(+11)
Scimitar +8\+3 1d6+1

I chose the Extra Grit feat to extend the usage of special abilities, which was rather redundant at this lvl. I barely ever got to use the deeds I had chosen, since one is fixing your only magical weapon and the other one is active at all times. Weapon focus, weapon specialization and deadly aim to enhance the combat abilities. We chose to use deadly aim even if it doesn't (by the book) work with touch attacks. But we believe that will be reworked somehow in the future. Rapid reload was rather useful since it lets you fire a shot every round. As mentioned above I chose the deeds with some consideration (and without). Quick cleaning to fix the broken magical gun that you probably only own one of at this time, and Gunslinger Initiative. A static bonus to initiative is rather nice, but the quick draw effect of this deed is rather useless. You can draw your gun when rolling initiative witch gives you no other benefits except from looking "cinematically" fast since you can't fire the gun until it's your turn anyway.

Items I chose where based mostly on Armor Class to enhance survivability. A magic +1 buckler is masterwork and gives no armor check penalty and you still can use your hand for reloading, giving you an extra 2 points of AC.

As of the other characters, they where rather generic 6th lvl the ranger was archery spec and the cleric had the healing and good. The wizard was a universalist.
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1st Encounter Babau from the bestiary.
Babau surprises party and teleport closer to party into reach with the ranger.

Initiative is rolled.

Round 1
Gunslinger moves to position within touch attack range of the pistol and fires a shot using Deadly Aim. Hit AC 19 and does 18 points of damage where 10 is reduced by DR which will be calculated from now on.

Babau use special ability and creates darkness.

Cleric moves to gunslinger and cast align weapon.

Ranger 5ft away from the Babau and full attack. Since he ignores concealment due to improved precise shot he may fire without any miss chance. With the use of rapid shot he fires 3 times and he crits on the manyshot and does 28 points of damage. Then he hits AC 15 and 9 on the two other shots and misses.

Mage casts haste.

Round 2
Gunslinger reloads as a move action due to the rapid reload feat and fires one shot, hoping for a shot in the dark (sorry for the intended pun). It misses due to concealment.

Babau moves into melee with the ranger, mage and cleric, to attack the ranger. He cant 5ft because of difficult terrain. AC 19 and a miss.

Cleric 5ft out of melee and cast bless.

Ranger 5ft out of melee and full attacks with deadly aim and rapid shot. AC: 29 Dmg: 1, AC: 30 Dmg: 0, AC: 9 a miss and AC 12 another miss.

Mage 5ft out of melee and cast magic missile overcomes SR and does 10 points of damage.

Round 3
Gunslinger reloads and fires. It misses again due to concealment.

Babau 5ft into melee again and full attacks the cleric. AC: 22 misses but AC: 23 does 12 points of damage.

Cleric 5ft out of melee and cast Cure Moderate Wounds on herself and is completely fine. 14 Hp is healed.

Ranger 5ft out of melee and full attacks with deadly aim and rapid shot. AC: 22 Dmg: 6, AC: 15 miss, AC: 19 Dmg: 5, and AC 16 miss.

Mage cast's another Magic Missile overcomes SR and deals 11 points of damage killing the Babau.
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2nd Encounter a Medusa from the bestiary

Medusa surprises party except the ranger.

Initiative is rolled for the Medusa and ranger

Medusa moves towards the party to make use of her petrifying gaze. The whole party makes their saves.

Ranger fires one arrow. AC: 27 Dmg: 15

The rest of the party rolls initiative

Round 1

Medusa full attacks the ranger with her bow. AC: 24 Dmg: 5 and 12 is a miss.

Mage is averting his eyes giving him a 50% chance not to be affected by the gaze attack. It succeeds. Then he moves out of range of the gaze attack and uses a wand of Scorching Ray. He roll his miss chance due to the averting of his eyes and succeeds. Then he hits AC 10 touch wich is a miss.

Gunslinger averts his eyes successfully, moves away from the gaze attack and fires. But the miss chance ruins the shot.

Ranger averts his eyes unsuccessfully and rolls a new save which he makes. Moves out of the gaze attack and casts Entangle trying to immobilize the Medusa, but she makes her save.

Cleric averts her eyes successfully moves into total cover and channels. 6 Hp is healed on the ranger.

Round 2

Medusa moves out of the entangle and in gaze attack range, attacks the mage but misses.

Mage averting his eyes unsuccessfully makes his save, and cast Magic Missile dealing 11 points of damage. The moves away from the gaze attack.

Gunslinger averts his eyes successfully moves in total cover and reloades.

Ranger averts his eyes unsuccessfully but saves. He full attacks the medusa ingnores the miss chance due to improved precise shot. AC: 22 Dmg: 10, AC: 22 Dmg: 13, AC: 26 Dmg:14. Then 5ft back.

Cleric moves into position and readies her crossbow.

Round 3

Medusa moves into melee attack of the ranger and uses her snakebites. AC: 14 is a miss.

Mage moves into position and uses his was of Scorching Rays hits AC: 16 Dmg: 8 fire.

Gunslinger moves out of cover and fires into melee from a distance of 35 feet, so no touch attack.. AC: 12 a miss.

Ranger averts eyes successfully and full attacks the Medusa. AC: 19 Dmg: 9 Killing the Medusa.
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Conclusion:

At this point I found out that the gunslinger is rather straight forward, and a bit boring. Of course if I had chosen different deeds like Deadeye or Pistolwhip I might have been using those one or two times, but not much more. And in any case I could maximum have used it around 5 times before I had to put my life one the line or get a random critical to increase my grit again. You do decent damage but nothing overwhelming, and you only get one attack. Of course this can be circumvented by have more than one gun and quick draw two weapon fighting etc. But then you would need a lot of feats later on and of course the cash to spend. Mostly for the single hander a round consists of reloading and shooting.


Sorry sir you cant use deadly aim with guns. The Devs have said so in these test forums.

Do you think it would have made a big difference in the encounters you played through without it?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Note for Messrs. Buhlman and Radney-MacFarland:

Lots of people seem to be thinking you have to choose deeds instead of getting all you qualify for.


Dragonsong wrote:

Sorry sir you cant use deadly aim with guns. The Devs have said so in these test forums.

Do you think it would have made a big difference in the encounters you played through without it?

I think it's pretty obvious the answer is "the already piddly damage the gunslinger did would be even lower".


Heretek wrote:
Dragonsong wrote:

Sorry sir you cant use deadly aim with guns. The Devs have said so in these test forums.

Do you think it would have made a big difference in the encounters you played through without it?

I think it's pretty obvious the answer is "the already piddly damage the gunslinger did would be even lower".

I cant disagree but the more the devs see it in writing the more likely some sort of solution will be reached that can keep the "flavor" but actually dish out what people feel the flavor should do.


Good playtest, good job.

The more I read the more I think the gunslinger wasn't made for one vs. group combat.

he seems more switch hitter that drops mooks (not usually the most desired position) grabs a high crit weapon (get grit back) and uses that to kill things.

Example: pulls gun caps mook, pulls weapon, kills mook, reload and repeat.

more of a musketeer then a gunslinger. If guns did a lot more in that first shot it could work


Dragonsong wrote:

Sorry sir you cant use deadly aim with guns. The Devs have said so in these test forums.

Do you think it would have made a big difference in the encounters you played through without it?

It would increase the duration of the encounters with a round or 2 depending on the ranger and other various factors.


Shisumo wrote:

Note for Messrs. Buhlman and Radney-MacFarland:

Lots of people seem to be thinking you have to choose deeds instead of getting all you qualify for.

I see your point, when reading the description it states the you can use all the deeds you qualify for. But then again on the Gunslinger ability tree you can see the he gains deeds more than one time through the levels indicating that he has to choose various deeds that he qualifies for. So we chose the latter for this playtest.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Nejrael wrote:
Shisumo wrote:

Note for Messrs. Buhlman and Radney-MacFarland:

Lots of people seem to be thinking you have to choose deeds instead of getting all you qualify for.

I see your point, when reading the description it states the you can use all the deeds you qualify for. But then again on the Gunslinger ability tree you can see the he gains deeds more than one time through the levels indicating that he has to choose various deeds that he qualifies for. So we chose the latter for this playtest.

The chart mentions are intended to call out when you gain access to new deeds. You do not, in fact, have to choose deeds. You can use any for whom you meet the level prerequisite.


I like the name Musketeer better than Gunslinger for this class.
A little less anachronistic in the magic-medieval setting of Golarion,
and actually fits the normal weapons you´ll be using a bit better.

I´m fine with other ´gunslinger´ flavor influencing it, but for the name it seems more reasonable.


Quandary wrote:

I like the name Musketeer better than Gunslinger for this class.

A little less anachronistic in the magic-medieval setting of Golarion,
and actually fits the normal weapons you´ll be using a bit better.

I´m fine with other ´gunslinger´ flavor influencing it, but for the name it seems more reasonable.

Absolutely!


Quandary wrote:

I like the name Musketeer better than Gunslinger for this class.

A little less anachronistic in the magic-medieval setting of Golarion,
and actually fits the normal weapons you´ll be using a bit better.

I´m fine with other ´gunslinger´ flavor influencing it, but for the name it seems more reasonable.

I doubt it'll happen. Gunslinger evokes the image it was meant to be with the way the class is played. Musketeer only evokes one image --- the 3 Musketeers, which everyone associates with swashbuckling. Not the image Paizo has in mind.


Dragonsong wrote:

Sorry sir you cant use deadly aim with guns. The Devs have said so in these test forums.

Do you think it would have made a big difference in the encounters you played through without it?

They did? That's outright silly. Especially when you look at the description of the feat:

"You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by pinpointing a foe's weak spot, at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed."

So...gunslingers can't pinpoint foe's weakspots with a gun, but it's ok to do so with crossbows, thrown daggers, and arrows?!


I have to agree. They already said the same type of thing for the ninja.


Razz wrote:


They did? That's outright silly. Especially when you look at the description of the feat:

"You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by pinpointing a foe's weak spot, at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed."

So...gunslingers can't pinpoint foe's weakspots with a gun, but it's ok to do so with crossbows, thrown daggers, and arrows?!

I must have said this like 5 times now, but...

It is completely pants-on-head retarded. Just DM houserule them to work.

Shadow Lodge

Just to clear it up, you cant use Deadly Aim for the FIRST range increment, where it targets touch AC. Deadly Aim is perfectly viable for ranges 2-5, however, when the gun is again targeting normal AC. Odd, I know.


Kabump wrote:
Odd, I know.

No, it isn't, it's retarded and an unintended result of the words they chose to use for the playtest.

Senior Designer

As some folks pointed out, you don't have to choose deeds, you get access to all the deeds for your level, and the "deeds" from feats.

So don't feel like you are constrained there--go hog wild. ::ducks::

As for Deadly Aim, I am of a mind to make it work in the first range increment, but as of yet we haven't really discussed the right way to do that. That's some work for next week.

A temporary fix will likely pop up in an update post you will see in the next week.

Thank you for the playtest information. It was an interesting and insightful read.


IS there a weapon that does ranged touch attacks? The intention behind ranged touch=no deadly aim is to limit spellcasters, I presume.

Rewording deadly aim to contain the word "weapon" somewhere should clear it up. As feat supersede basic restriction.

As for the playtest, not to poo-poo your effort, buuuut; The casters seem to exist for the sole purpose of being buffers and healers. Can tell that it ain't me or Andy playing either of them. The absence of a melee character also makes this all seem kinda optimal for the build.

And a fighter being boring is something most would see coming from a mile away. I much prefer Scipion del Ferro's monk base, and hope designers take a real long and hard look at it.


Kamelguru wrote:
IS there a weapon that does ranged touch attacks?

Splash Weapons

To be honest, the problem arises by using the Touch AC as a mechanical add-on for the gunslinger. I know a lot of people are griping about this, and I'm not just another one of them.

It's just that Touch AC has always been used when an effect has a reason to ignore armor, and a bullet just doesn't ignore armor, it most definitely has an effect on armor. It would be much easier to give a bonus to attack with guns at closer ranges, and have a larger fall-off for range increments.


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
As for Deadly Aim, I am of a mind to make it work in the first range increment, but as of yet we haven't really discussed the right way to do that. That's some work for next week.

It seems pretty easy to fix. Instead of CALLING it a Ranged Touch Attack, you just say `your shots bypasss Armor and Natural Armor Bonuses within Point Blank / Short Range`... i.e. like Brilliant Energy. Brilliant Energy weapons can still use Power Attack / Deadly Aim AFAIK.

But is that balanced? You are going to be CONFIRMING Crits ALOT more if only having to beat Touch AC, especially on lower iteratives. I was thinking of some way that Deadly Aim damage is only Crit-Multiplied if you Confirm vs. normal AC, but that seems tiresome.

Maybe the entire shot must Confirm vs. normal AC in order to Confirm a Crit? Or perhaps Deadly Aim damage only applies if you HIT normal AC in the first place (and is only multiplied on a Crit if you Confirm vs. normal AC)?

Gruuuu wrote:
It's just that Touch AC has always been used when an effect has a reason to ignore armor, and a bullet just doesn't ignore armor, it most definitely has an effect on armor. It would be much easier to give a bonus to attack with guns at closer ranges, and have a larger fall-off for range increments.

I can definitely see this solution. And it`s nice, because it`s easy to SCALE at high levels. At PBS range, you can ignore X armor bonus. Each Range increment, that is reduced by -x. So at low levels, it only effects PBS and Short, at higher levels even 3rd range increment shots may benefit. Why not throw in similar negation of DR (that isn`t /holy,etc)?

That also gets me, the janky lock-blowing mechanic. Does this really need Grit?
Why not just apply the above DR negation for PBS, and remove the (ranged weapons do 1/2 dmg) rule for sundering items below a certain size (since I don+t think guns need to be great at sundering armor, normal weapons, etc).


Quandary wrote:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
As for Deadly Aim, I am of a mind to make it work in the first range increment, but as of yet we haven't really discussed the right way to do that. That's some work for next week.

It seems pretty easy to fix. Instead of CALLING it a Ranged Touch Attack, you just say `your shots bypasss Armor and Natural Armor Bonuses within Point Blank / Short Range`... i.e. like Brilliant Energy. Brilliant Energy weapons can still use Power Attack / Deadly Aim AFAIK.

But is that balanced? You are going to be CONFIRMING Crits ALOT more if only having to beat Touch AC, especially on lower iteratives. I was thinking of some way that Deadly Aim damage is only Crit-Multiplied if you Confirm vs. normal AC, but that seems tiresome.

Maybe the entire shot must Confirm vs. normal AC in order to Confirm a Crit? Or perhaps Deadly Aim damage only applies if you HIT normal AC in the first place (and is only multiplied on a Crit if you Confirm vs. normal AC)?

Gruuuu wrote:
It's just that Touch AC has always been used when an effect has a reason to ignore armor, and a bullet just doesn't ignore armor, it most definitely has an effect on armor. It would be much easier to give a bonus to attack with guns at closer ranges, and have a larger fall-off for range increments.

I can definitely see this solution. And it`s nice, because it`s easy to SCALE at high levels. At PBS range, you can ignore X armor bonus. Each Range increment, that is reduced by -x. So at low levels, it only effects PBS and Short, at higher levels even 3rd range increment shots may benefit. Why not throw in similar negation of DR (that isn`t /holy,etc)?

That also gets me, the janky lock-blowing mechanic. Does this really need Grit?
Why not just apply the above DR negation for PBS, and remove the (ranged weapons do 1/2 dmg) rule for sundering items below a certain size (since I don+t think guns need to be great at sundering armor, normal weapons, etc).

The firearm rules specifically state that they target touch ac within the first range increment, not that they are ranged touch attacks. They worded it this way for a reason.


Fnipernackle wrote:
The firearm rules specifically state that they target touch ac within the first range increment, not that they are ranged touch attacks. They worded it this way for a reason.

OK, but Paizo has confirmed that Deadly Aim doesn`t currently work per RAW, and that they are `looking at` changes here. If there`s any difference between Ranged Touch Attacks and the current wording, it isn`t enough to effect Deadly Aim apparently.


Quandary wrote:
Fnipernackle wrote:
The firearm rules specifically state that they target touch ac within the first range increment, not that they are ranged touch attacks. They worded it this way for a reason.
OK, but Paizo has confirmed that Deadly Aim doesn`t currently work per RAW, and that they are `looking at` changes here. If there`s any difference between Ranged Touch Attacks and the current wording, it isn`t enough to effect Deadly Aim apparently.

can you link the thread where they said this please?

and did they give a reason why it cant be used? im really curious to know why it cant be cause i think its dumb. thats just me.


Fnipernackle wrote:
Quandary wrote:
Fnipernackle wrote:
The firearm rules specifically state that they target touch ac within the first range increment, not that they are ranged touch attacks. They worded it this way for a reason.
OK, but Paizo has confirmed that Deadly Aim doesn`t currently work per RAW, and that they are `looking at` changes here. If there`s any difference between Ranged Touch Attacks and the current wording, it isn`t enough to effect Deadly Aim apparently.

can you link the thread where they said this please?

and did they give a reason why it cant be used? im really curious to know why it cant be cause i think its dumb. thats just me.

Here is the post

Liberty's Edge

To be clear, as per current RAW, Deadly Aim does not work with guns at the first range increment, since it functions as a Ranged Touch attack.

The developers have also said, including in this very thread, that they feel the feat probably should apply, but are unsure how to word it so that it works with guns but not with thrown weapons or spells.

They are not 100% clear on whether or not letting it apply will have significant balance issues further down the road. The current problem with the feat is caused by the developers not anticipating the gun rules, so they want to be careful they don't create another issue further down the road.

At this point, letting the feat apply for the play-test is fine, as long as the poster indicates that they were doing so.


I was the DM for this playtest and new about the deadly aim issue. I choose to allow it because I found it silly not to. I was unaware that the gunslinger gained access to all deeds as I trusted my player to understand how the class worked while I set up the encounters. Still I don't think access to more deeds would have changed much, as plain out shooting was the best option in almost all cases.

As for now I find the gunslinger to be an extremely boring and expensive class to play. The ability to make ranged touch attacks with his guns allowed him to almost never miss targets which depended upon armor and natural armor for AC. This made the gunslinger a rather one trick pony with no need to do anything than be within short range and shoot to contribute to an encounter.

My biggest gripe with the gunslinger has nothing to do with the class however, but rather how guns work in Pathfinder. First off they are waaaaay to expensive, I don't understand how a weapon which is basically a glorified crossbow with an in-built fumble rule can cost a thousand gold pieces. I can understand why gunpowder is expensive and I can even see guns being more expensive in specific campaign settings where guns are suppossed to be rare (such as Golarion). But for the core game they should probably lower the cost of guns to make them viable at all (dividing the cost by a factor of ten should be about right IMO). The second problem I have is the whole touch attack thing. Why on earth did the designers choose this path? Historically guns didn't become any more armor piercing than a crossbow or longbow before the invention of rifling. So in a "simulationist" perspective this is highly inaccurate. It is also the mechanical "wonkyness" such as the whole deadly aim issue and the fact that anyone will hit anything with a low touch AC (which is about 90% of all monsters and classes). A better solution would be for guns to target flat-footed AC, which would make the guns exceptionally good for rogues and make the uncanny dodge ability great against guns. This would be more like "you can't dodge a bullet" thing. You could still have this only work at short range. I also dislike the misfire rules, not because they aren't realistic, but because no other weapons have such a drawback and it just isn't any fun at all. I can see why you want to have a drawback to guns if they have a special rule (such as the touch attack thing), but seeing how expensive and slow they are I don't think the misfire rules are necessary. If you absolutely have to keep the misfire rules at least remove this drawback from masterwork and magical guns and perhaps give the gunslinger a class ability which allows him to ignore the misfire rules as well.


BobChuck wrote:

To be clear, as per current RAW, Deadly Aim does not work with guns at the first range increment, since it functions as a Ranged Touch attack.

The developers have also said, including in this very thread, that they feel the feat probably should apply, but are unsure how to word it so that it works with guns but not with thrown weapons or spells.

So make it say "Ranged Weapons AND FIREARMS" instead of just "Ranged Weapons." If they want to allow firearms to use Deadly Aim without creating a loophole for spells and thrown weapons, then just write guns in as a specific exception. I really don't get what is so complicated about this.

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