Not necessarily, but somebody has to make this item, and if it's really hard to get somebody to make it, you can expect it to be considerably more rare than its computed list price would suggest. I mean, you aren't expecting Lord WalDeMart to find the rare people who can make it and express it to wherever it might be needed, are you?
I kinda get where you're coming from, but it seems a bit silly. After all, potions of level 3 paladin spells are specifically listed with prices in the very same chapter of the core rulebook that gives those availability guidelines. If they wanted them to be unusually hard to find compared to other items of similar value, couldn't they have just said so? And paladins don't have limited spells known, so there's no reason potions of untold wonder would be any more rare than potions of any other level 3 paladin spell.
As for the story side of things, yeah I would actually expect magic item shops in large towns to be buying potions off traveling merchants from distant lands, tracking down crafters who can fill gaps in their inventories, and so on, not just relying on whoever happens to live in the area. I'd assume that's all part of the unspoken background operation that explains why their selling prices are twice what PCs can get away with — customers are paying for selection.
And as a side note, I'm not sure I actually see why a paladin with Brew Potion would be so rare. Surely NPCs aren't all optimizing their feat selection for adventuring or dueling, and putting some resources toward bolstering your larger community's ability to fight evil at the expense of your own personal glory sounds like a fairly lawful good thing to do. Besides untold wonder there are half a dozen worthwile potions or oils that paladins are the sole or cheapest source for, maybe twenty more that they're as good a source for as anyone else, and unlike most casting classes a single paladin with Brew Potion can brew every last one of them. Don't see why they'd be especially hard to find.
But really I'd almost never expect that sort of analysis to matter, because when it comes down to it that seems like an exhausting way to handle shopping. "You want to buy a lesser extend metamagic rod when you get into the city? Let's see... there are thirty-seven casters in the region of 9th level or higher, but only two of them took Craft Rod because feats are scarce. One's a sorcerer who doesn't have Extend Spell and can't make a DC 27 Spellcraft check because he wanted to max out his social skills, and the other's a druid who's philosophically opposed to the institution of retail. Sorry, no luck." Makes sense for MacGuffins, not so much for buying basic magic gear. If it's not an unusually low-magic game, that's what the availability guidelines are there for. But that's just my take on it, your experience may vary.
zza ni wrote:
it was faqed a while ago. (in 2016)
Name Violation wrote:
im not getting that from that FAQ
Yeah that's the FAQ I was referring to in my last post, clearly interpretations differ and I can see how either of you reached the readings you did, it seemed ambiguous to me. I'm not especially concerned since the build works either way, at most you'd have to tweak the source of healing you use.
Since a Paladin would have to invest one of their scarce feats for Brew Potion, and since they would have to be fairly high level to cast Untold Wonder, it means that your party would need to have a fairly high level Paladin for a patron.
Or they could just... buy it, right? Like, from a shop. In a town where most 2,000-gp items are readily available.
I mean, do you normally expect PCs to have a specific patron who personally crafts them every item they want to purchase?
zza ni wrote:
the anatomy doll won't heal the Dhmpir.
the negative energy need to call out that it heal undead to work. not damage the living. same as a cleric channeling energy.
I'm genuinely not sure if that's true. You're of course accurately describing how channel energy works, but that's a direct result of the rules for channel energy. Meanwhile the positive/negative energy FAQ specifically calls out channeling as unusual, though it's not quite clear what the default expectation is for abilities that don't specify. It looks like a negative energy effect that doesn't heal undead will say so explicitly (e.g. chill touch, blood crow strike). My best reading is that a dhampir hit by umbral strike would suffer the blindness and the cold damage but be healed by the negative energy damage, and likewise a dhampir whose blood was used on an anatomy doll would be affected by the sympathetic link and the sickened condition as normal but be healed by the negative energy damage.
If not, they'll just have to rely on a wand of infernal healing until they can afford boots of the earth.
Glad you like it! Fair concerns. The build is certainly dependent on being able to find the potion, though I'll note if you're using the magic item availability guidelines it does fall within the base value for a large town (or small city, depending on the CL you want), which means "a 75% chance that any item of that value or lower can be found for sale with little effort in that community."
As for the rhamphorhynchus, they are at least of a body type with "grasp/carry — yes" in the magic item slots table, but it's absolutely GM discretion whether they can stab or twist the doll effectively, and I suspect most real-life pterosaurs would probably need to use their mouth to exert any serious force. If all else fails you can always just activate the doll yourself as long as you're not in combat and don't need your standard actions for anything else.
Mostly I just love the image of an alchemist gaining power not through any sort of proper study, but by drinking a ludicrous hodgepodge of concoctions to contort their mental state in a way that would normally produce a disastrous feedback loop but in the right combination unlocks nigh-omniscience. It fits very nicely with the vetala flavor. Plus it allows for some mechanical options that need a little love — making ragechemist viable is hard enough, and I'm pretty sure this is the only reason anyone would even consider playing one that's not strength-based. Not to mention some of the weirder possibilities that getting such a high Int score at this level opens up, like occult rituals.
Found an absolutely wild shenanigan that comes online at 4th level:
vetala-born dhampir alchemist (ragechemist) 4
ability scores: max Int, dump Str/Wis/Cha
traits: Called, Enduring Mutagen, Student of Philosophy
drawback: Headstrong
feats: Splash Weapon Mastery, Extra Discovery
discoveries: precise bombs, tumor familiar, extend potion
favored class bonus: mutagen duration
key gear: anatomy doll, potion of untold wonder
Use alchemical allocation with your potion, then drink your mutagen. Have your rhamphorhynchus familiar start continually biting you for damage and twisting the doll to heal you back up with negative energy. Fail saves against your rage mutagen to get escalating penalties, which are translated into bonuses thanks to untold wonder. So you end up with absurdly high Intelligence and Will bonuses that last for hours and give you unparalleled skill checks plus massive damage with your splash weapons.
This looks interesting! GM, how do you feel about the samurai alternate class of cavalier? I'm thinking that warrior poet into shadowdancer could make for a perfect genteel, sophisticated assassin.
Also, for Eberron races should we be looking at the Pathfinder conversions here, or is there some other adaptation you'd like us to use?
Here's my concept: you know that scrawny, disheveled custodian who's always in the background at crucial plot moments, sweeping up the glass from the last time someone smashed through the window? Well, turns out he's psychically bound to this place and will defend it with his life, drawing divine power from the spirit of the tavern itself and summoning that spirit to fight alongside him.
I'm planning on making him as a human soulbound summoner with a kami eidolon, going with laborer for his background and holy tactician paladin for his subclass. I'm particularly excited to try out the site-bound oracle curse, this seems like perfect opportunity to use it on a PC. I'll work on getting him statted up!
Eva Bentham is a blunt and pragmatic elven winemaker who runs a small, makeshift vineyard tucked between the trees on the outskirts of Falcon's Hollow. Loggers and minor fey alike stop by to barter for her wares, united in the simple desire for alcohol. Eva remains on decent terms with most but is close to none, seeming mostly interested in her plants and her recipes. Yet she is fiercely protective of the precarious existence eked out by her vineyard and the area as a whole, and when violence is needed she proves deadly with bow, spear, or molotov cocktail.
Eva is a true neutral elf expert / alchemist with the sacrament alchemist and grenadier archetypes. Mechanically she'll function as a switch-hitter and skill monkey with a bag of alchemical tricks. Her patron deity is Halcamora, the Lady of Ripe Bounty — empyreal lord of gardens, orchards, and wine. Eva is nearing middle-age as she approaches her 165th birthday.
Eva came to the Hollow in the early days of the Lumber Consortium's operations, working as a mercenary to support her family. But the occasional clashes between loggers and the denizens of the forest only escalated, until her husband and children got caught in the crossfire. She found them dead in a pile of smashed timber, and to this day she has no idea who was responsible. Besides herself, of course. That was the end of her mercenary career, ever since the plowshare has been the only blade she trusts. She's kept herself somewhat isolated from the people around her. Her grapes keep her occupied — and sometimes, even, happy. But now odd things are happening in the Vale, and everything is about to change.
Her traits are Warrior of Old (for her mercenary background) and Pragmatic Activator (for her no-nonsense approach to problem-solving).
Let me know if there's anything here that's unclear, or anything else you need!
I believe the GM said yes back here. Which is great news for me, since it would be pretty hard to squeeze Perform (oratory) and Linguistics into my cleric//summoner's 2+Int skill ranks.
Also quick note right here: Summoner must use the Unchained version of the class. I assume that won’t be a problem given the multitude of other power choices, but I don’t like base summoner that much.
Monks, Rogues, and Barbarians may choose whichever version they wish, although archetypes can’t cross over.
Okay, good to know! I mentioned earlier I was planning on using the master summoner archetype, any chance you'd allow that to work with the unchained version? I'm just envisioning a character who'd rely more on summons than her eidolon for combat.
If not, no worries! I might just go with monster tactician inquisitor, that fits well with the theme and solves my skill point issues handily.
Definitely not concerned about lacking powerful options, if anything mythic gestalt seemed like a great chance to try my hand at summoning precisely because there's no need to worry about summons outshining other party members.
I believe the GM said yes back here. Which is great news for me, since it would be pretty hard to squeeze Perform (oratory) and Linguistics into my cleric//summoner's 2+Int skill ranks.
Hmm I'm thinking Team Shelyn here, some kind of Paladin/Bard using a glaive to make art out of the demons. I guess Virtuous Bravio into Devoted Muse on the Paladin side, will have to think about the bard side.
Ooh, another Shelynite! Here's hoping we get a full party's worth.
This looks super fun! I've got an idea for a changeling master summoner // evangelist cleric of Shelyn to fill a support and face role on top of the whole celestial summoning thing, probably aiming for marshal. I'll see what I can get put together!
Reading posts now! ...Briallen as leader? Hmm... I'll have to see what the fellow PCs say. Paladin leader is an odd choice, but we have, what, *three* paladins? :thinking:
Yeah, I think all the non-paladins straight-up told the committee they don't really feel suited to lead.
We could maybe just not have a single leader? Not sure how essential it is for making things run smoothly. Like maybe Briallen could take the lead for combat, AI-eon for communications, and so on? I guess this is a conversation we'll need to have in character, but GM I'm curious if you've got any more thoughts.
I've taken a shot at writing up a background to answer some of those questions. I should say up front that I'm not super familiar with the Planescape setting, but from what I'm reading it seems there's a bit of room to maneuver with individual planes. Please do let me know if there's anything about my concept that doesn't work with the larger world!
Background:
What's his world of origin like?
Spencer grew up in a world without magic. And for the first nineteen years of his life, he thought that was all there was.
It's known as the Cluster: not a single planet but an assortment of smaller bodies somewhat akin to an asteroid field, though much more hospitable to life. Populated primarily by halflings and gnomes, but there are also a fair number of goblins, kobolds, ratfolk, and grippli. While their socities are as varied as the rocks they live on, they all share this: throughout the bulk of their history, magic has just been something out of fairy tales.
What they have had, in abundance, is alchemy. They had alchemy before they had agriculture or written language — the physics of their plane is uniquely suited to it. It's what gave them the furnaces that power their cities, the cannons that shoot their vessels from sphere to sphere. There are many areas, of course, where this world is nowhere near what we'd consider modern. But when it comes to technological marvels, they certainly have their share.
It was nonetheless quite the shock for everyone when an otherwise unremarkable patch of space was found to contain a portal to another realm, a realm full of lumbering giants and impossible marvels.
Where does Spencer come in?
Spencer was at university when the discovery broke. Before then he'd been a bright and passionate student but a bit lacking in direction, spending his days competing in fencing tournaments and studying anthropology. But with this mind-blowing news he saw an opportunity to truly make a difference. Spencer devoted himself to learning everything he could about this otherworld, and by the time he graduated he was able to earn a spot on a gnommish exploration mission.
This put him at odds with some family and friends; halfling communities at the time tended to be a bit more wary about the whole prospect of other worlds. And he was definitely sorry to say goodbye. But he knew that they had to learn what was out there, and he wanted to be there to help.
What's happened since?
That was ten years ago. Spencer is no longer that clueless initiate, not remotely. Ever since he met the organization and joined their ranks, he's been soaking up knowledge like a sponge. Each plane he studies is a new source of wonder, and nothing fascinates him more than magic.
In all this time he's rarely been out in the field, instead serving mostly as an archivist and chronicler. That's where he's felt most comfortable: fitting together pieces of other people's stories and helping them help others. Most recently he's been working to untangle the logistics of an operation to save a plane where time is flowing at inconsistant rates — it's been a delightfully infuriating puzzle.
But now he's been given a new assignment... a field assignment. Time to dust off that old fencing sword, and try not mess anything up.
Also, because it didn't end up fitting anywhere else: Spencer will keep a low profile on mostly-human planes by taking advantage of his uncanny resemblance to a human child. Hopefully he can pretend to be the kid of one of the other party members — he has the social skills to back it up, and with luck they'll both be able to help the other seem less out of place. In circumstances where children would be unwelcome, well, that's where a disguise scroll will come in handy.
Interesting! I've got an idea for a character: Spencer, an earnest halfling chronicler recently transferred from the organization's archives department. He'd see himself primarily as a Q-style logistician and equipment-guru, at first feeling a bit out of his depth working in the field, though his studies of swordplay techniques would prove to make him useful in a fight. Build-wise I'd be excited to try out the Pathfinder Chronicler prestige class, and for the base class I'm thinking inspired blade swashbucker, although that's less set in stone. GM Hansj, any thoughts?
~ The Magician class is a watered down Wizard. You will be able to cast all first and second level spells but beyond that a magician casts only spells from the divination and illusion schools.
Thanks for the clarification! I have an idea for a magician character that I'm excited to try out, I was just confused about how that would translate over to Pathfinder. So you're saying I should stat them up like a wizard but with the spell restrictions you described? Sounds great, I'll work on pulling that together.
Huh, this seems interesting! Also not familiar with the setting, but I've been poking around the wiki and it looks like there's a lot to work with.
Your mention of magicians piqued my curiosity — I see the wiki has a magician class for 3.5, is there a Pathfinder equivalent or would the term just generally cover certain intermediate arcane casters like bards and summoners?
