Moox's page

Thanks for all the suggestions! I've got a map of an ice lair and stuff going, but now I'm tempted to try some of the ideas on here, especially from Third Mind and Gobo Horde.

For the record, I gave them 75% XP for escaping the dragon and nothing for anything inside the fortress that they didn't fight, which is just the way I like to do things. At my gaming table, this is considered fair, and really helps keep the players feeling like they got a reward commensurate with the challenge. For us, it sucks almost as much to get a bazillion XP for avoiding an encounter as it does to get crap XP for a super tough encounter; they both cheapen the experience.

Moox

Contention in the ranks maybe? The white dragon, knowing that the castle is under attack decides this is an excellent time for him to betray the giantess and steal the ring for himself as he had been planning all along. Pump up the giantess and her minions to make them an epic challenge for the PCs and in the middle of the encounter have the dragon and his kin burst in through the ceiling. It suddenly stops being about surviving and perhaps even beating a high level foe and instead becomes about being caught in the middle as the white dragon and his kin duke it out with the ice giantess and her minions. In the end the giant lies dead, the party has a new BBEG as the dragon has made off with the ring and there’s a room full of loot left behind, but to claim it they must fight off the giants they bypassed earlier, who’ve come to investigate the commotion.

Ahahahahahahaaaaaaahahahahhahahahahahaaaa *breathe* aaahahahahahahahhahaaaacanIpleaseplayinyourgame

--Moox

If you're looking for assisting creatures groups of Ice Golems and Winter Wolves are both setting a appropriate and could harry the party pretty effectively with their breath weapons. Winter wolves could stay mobile and strike with their breath weapon whenever an opportunity presents itself, and the golems could get in their way. Their DR/adamantine and explosion on death would act as effective deterrents from getting locked down fighting them.

Also worth considering:

Shadows and Wraiths: Shadows and wraiths are always nice backup. They can harass the party while moving through the floor and deal ability damage and drain, which is threatening no matter what level you are.

Cryohydras: Alone or with a few of them, they could provide some serious "fire" support with a large number of breath weapons.

Babau Demons: A number of babau demons could help hem the party in with reach weapons, or take advantage of their at-will dispel magic and constant see invisibility to help keep party buffs down, especially invisibility effects and protection from energy or resist energy.

Nothing else comes to mind right now, but I'll let you know if I think of anything. :)

I like these ideas! I think for a pet, I can't go wrong with a remorhaze, which can tunnel through the walls of the ice cave and make some crazy stuff happen. Now for a research assistant. Your suggestion of a Babau is very very excellent!

--Moox

Nicos wrote:

I find your post hilarious, really. " I am the DM and if you do not do exactly th thing I have planned for you then I will kill your Pcs".

If they get TPKed while fighting the BBEG that is fine provided the DM run the encounter fairly, not for DM-rage as you advice.

Pardon me if I would be a bit ticked off to work really hard on a nice adventure and then the PCs decice "screw it, we're gonna storm the BBEG's fortress instead", leading to delays in gaming and a loss of productive time.

I don't put in hard work on a stage just for it to be skipped. That's disrespect on the part of the PCs.

littlehewy wrote:

Players should be punished for having good ideas and avoiding encounters that aren't necessary to engage in?

Wha?

That's the weirdest thing I've read on here for ages. And I've been checking out some of shallowsoul's posts...

They didn't just avoid encounters, they avoided entire stages. That's not a "good idea", that's called "derailing the campaign". I won't have that at my table.

If I put hard work into an adventure, I expect it to be played out.

I foresaw that this might happen, and put in an ancient white dragon to deal with it. I'm totally fine with the way things worked out, I'm just somewhat unprepared. See my post above :)

--Moox

If this thread were to NOT get hijacked into a discussion of...stuff, that would be super cool.

--Moox

The thing is, just because they are at her abode does NOT mean she's home.

So, move some of the other, lesser encounters you meant to have to her tower, for them to chew through...multiples of them, enough to drive the characters back out, hopefully running for their lives.

The next time they try to get in, teleport wards are in place to stop just that sort of thing, raise alarms, etc., and if they try to insert aerially, Elder Air Elementals come out after them.

They should get out with the idea that the sorceress is looking for something to help her...do whatever, which should lead to the next encounter site you have planned, and get the adventure back on track.

Seeing the giantess and her half-dozen bodyguards coming back to the tower on giant rocs whilst battling other minions should be enough to get them running, I would hope!

==Aelryinth

Amazingly enough, we've already done a pretty similar encounter: during the PC's escape from the frost giant prison the first time, they had to speed away from the pursuing giant army mounted on huge mammoths. They only escaped by flying over an ice plain that was a breeding ground for remorhazes! Things got real interesting when the party went down due to high winds and had to traverse the rest of the plain on foot...

Anyway, the main point of this plea for help is NOT "help me get the players to go through the fortress after all," but rather "help me design a memorable encounter quickly!"

Thanks for the help so far!

--Moox

Nicos wrote:

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:

Personally, I'd use this as an opportunity to teach them not to screw with the GM's plans.

Worst advice of the day u.u

How so?

When a DM creates content, it's a labor of love and it's hard work. For PCs to basically spit in your face and "har har we skipped it all" is way beyond insulting. Patience in a virtue, and if you run off to fight the final boss while woefully under-leveled, then it's your own fault if you die.

Want something more gentle? Fine. Create the stage for the level it was intended to be entered at. When they start getting their butts kicked in the first room, they should be smart enough to say "Geez, we're not strong enough to handle this yet." They'll retreat and go gain some power of their own before coming back.

A DM shouldn't nerf the BBEG just because the PCs find a way to fight him early. If anything, that sort of insolence needs to be punished, otherwise any schmuck could go in there and take deal with it. Then maybe the PCs will think twice about skipping several levels of content in the future.

Everyone has their own way of handling these things. In this particular case, I want the encounter to be a hefty, memorable challenge, but not crushingly hard. That's why I'm looking for some sort of extra twist or trick that the PC's can exploit in the encounter.

--Moox

I think you've mis-calculated her CR.

Adding Class Levels wrote:

Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature's CR for each level added. Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature's CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key.

A CR 9 frost giant (a Combat creature) with 11 levels of sorcerer would have their CR increased by 4 for the first 9 sorcerer levels, and then 2 for the last 2 sorcerer levels, resulting in a CR 15 creature. With the appropriate level of equipment (45,000 gp worth, by the NPC chart) she should be fine for a 13th level party to encounter. It's a Challenging encounter, but certainly winnable. It might even be too easy, due to her being a single target. It might be worth shaving off one or two levels and giving her some allies for the encounter to make it more interesting.

Oh, wow. Thank you so much! I knew she wasn't *really* CR 20, but I wasn't sure how the numbers worked out. I was just looking at her stats and comparing to my party for a good challenge. CR 15 will be perfect if I can pick some interesting minions for the encounter.

--Moox

Moox, I don't think she should be alone for a memorable encounter.

Does she have a number of lab assistants running around? At least one of them can fire off the last few charges of that wand of dispel magic, can't it?

Why did she steal the ring? Has she been teleporting places and gathering ingredients, parts, etc. to build something... say a golem or another kind of construct?

I personally love encounters with moving bits. A rotating platform, or whatnot.

Is she prepared for them? As a shaman, has she foreseen their arrival? That could give her a few tricks up her sleeve. A readied storm will still block visibility and give her and her cronies a round or two to pull themselves together.

Even if the PCs are highly resistant to cold, an ice cage might still tie them up for a round or two. And if any of those dispel magic spells get through, woe to the PC who doesn't like to be cold. Plus, even themed baddies know they they need a spare acid spell or electricity spell to tackle foes who know their reputation.

Thank you, GermanyDM! This is good stuff. I should have mentioned that the dungeon tower the PC's were teleported to by a friendly ice troll contained several frost giant encounters that the PC's dealt with summarily, but not before one of the giants raised the alarm with a gong. Ashaya and her minions will be on the alert, but not specifically expecting the PC's.

I agree she should not be alone! I'm not sure what lab assistants or pets to put in this encounter. As for the use of teleportation, the PC's plan to hit her with a solid dimensional anchor first thing, and probably will succeed. She's been using the ring to cause trouble and give the frost giants a better foothold in the mountains--she has teleported to the PC's location and messed up all their plans in the past, getting them put in the frost giant prison, which they escaped from to plan a revenge.

I also like the idea of moving platforms!

--Moox

Players in my Horror Campaign read no further.

Please help with suggestions! I'm gaming pretty soon and I need ideas for a climactic encounter!

Here's the situation: My PC's are storming a Frost Giant fortress in pursuit of the Troll King's ring of teleportation that was stolen by the Frost Giant shaman Ashaya. I had designed a whole complex series of scaling encounters to get them to level up (APL is 13) before facing Ashaya on the other side of the fortress.

However, instead they have bypassed the entire thing by using flight, some lucky skill checks in the high mountain winds, and some EXTREMELY lucky escapes from the ancient white dragon guarding the fortress' airspace.

Anyway, they reached Ashaya's tower by the skin of their teeth, and are about to enter her lair/workshop below the tower. Only problem is, I have no encounter planned! I thought I would have several sessions before I needed to nail down the specifics! Normally I would just wing it and it would be fine, but events have been building up to this fight for a while and it really needs to be special (I gotta top the airborne escape from the ancient white dragon)!

Ashaya is statted out as a female frost giant boreal bloodline sorcerer 11 (CR 20!) with ice spells of course (though the party will ignore those, considering all the anti-cold buffs they've got going). There definitely needs to be some sort of twist to make it a little easier on the party if they can be clever.

I'm thinking some sort of enormous cave with icy ledges and chasms lined with shelves for her giant-sized books, with maybe icicles dangerously perched on the roof? But why would she go around with dangerous icicles in her library? Maybe this encounter can be more memorable with something completely different?

I need some new inspiration, please help!

-Moox

That sounds like a blast go for the Wonk!
Or the Mitch!

-Moox

All my favorite campaigns have had 3 players. It just works better for us.

Your characters will level faster anyway, and they'll have more treasure per person. It's very easy to balance them out by giving even more additional treasure, if they're struggling. If they're clever they'll probably overpower the monsters anyhow--3 players can mean fewer people to worry about.

In the Horror Campaign that I'm running, my 3 players routinely defeat monsters 2 or even 3 CRs above them. They are VERY much NOT optimized, taking abilities for flavor more than anything -- the ranger didn't even have a high enough Wisdom to cast spells until 8th level, when she negotiated for a +2 headband as a reward...

In addition, it is an extremely low-treasure game. I'm happy to report that the players have no problems whatsoever, and we are having a blast!

Enjoy the easier way of telling an interactive story--fewer main characters!

Moox

Ahhhhhh Bogeyman CR 10 aaaaaaaa

I'm pretty much going to go with the Bogeyman from Bestiary 3 as my winner. I don't even know where to begin with him...

Quickened phantasmal killer 3/day? That do it for yah? No?

How about the ability to keep the entire party panicked forever by sneak attacking them from invisibility? For 6d6? Sure, his attack bonus isn't insanely high, but he'll be attacking flat-footed characters that can't see him until he attacks. Only long enough to turn invisible again...

DR 15 plus 5 fast healing so long as ANYONE is suffering from his multiple fear effects means you're screwed even if you have cold iron weapons.

Anyone who has those weapons can take a Hold Person or Suggestion to switch weapons right in the face.

On the other hand, the raw terror this entity inspires has created an entire storyline and series of horrifying adventures in the horror campaign I'm running, as the party flees from the bogeyman in fear. I created a motif of him leaving lollipops at the scene of heinous atrocities to raise the tension...Now the party basically loses their minds every time they see a lollipop.

I guess some of your other monsters are scary...but the bogeyman is the master of scariness himself.

Moox

Penny Arcade finally acknowledged the Pathfinder system in a comic. Would you call Pathfinder biblical in proportion? Do you think we play a game that strikes fear in the hearts of mortals?

Give me your thoughts.

Moox

I don't know if I qualify as a regular or not, but I do love the boards. I am so pleased to have this adventure and monster designs published! I think the everything came out really awesome, and it sure is one nice-looking document, Ignitus! :)

Endzeitgeist, I know your reviews to be helpful and useful to both buyers and creators, so I do hope you check out the Tangent and let us all know what you think! And many, many thanks for the nice comment about gamingmage.com! I do put a lot of work into the site.

Have fun and game on :)

Moox

I like the build. Seems cool; I would definitely check out some archetypes from Ultimate Magic though.

We're playing an all-bard campaign and one of my pals is running a tough melee bard. I'll see if he wants to post the build.

-Moox

Some favorites:

Fireball: A classic player spell, yet rarely prepared for by my players. Screws up a party AMAZINGLY well.

Entangle: Similarly to fireball, players rarely see it coming and it changes a whole encounter.

Teleport: SO very important for the bad guys to have.

Dimension Door: see teleport.

Fog cloud: Both effective with many monsters especially with blindsight, AND it makes things dramatic and scary for the players.

-Moox

Moox wrote:

There's little that strikes more fear in my heart as a GM than a monk player with Mage Armor, a ring of protection, and Ki points for AC. I can't enspell the monk reliably, can't reliably hit with weapon attacks, and I can't even GET AROUND the monk because his/her CMD is too high!
It's pretty crazy. And fun for the player.

-Moox

Oh, actually I had that guy in one party I GM'ed for. The solution is to ignore him and his feeble attacks and focus on the people who can actually harm your villains.

Sorry, but the Monk is still pretty pathetic. He has excellent defenses, but those don't win the 2-3 round fights at high levels.

Okay, so your objection stems at least partly from someone who focused too much energy on defense and failed to be creative in attacking. How can you ignore the monk who got up in the bad guy's face, can't be killed, and whose CMD is too high to get away from?

I don't really follow, but it sounds like this monk just wasn't trying. I've also had players who focus all their energy on defense and ignore what the party needs. I feel your pain there, but I don't feel it's a problem inherent to the monk, just inherent to a poor playstyle.

-Moox

Moox wrote:

Always great to hear that I reached someone! It's true, isn't it? The monk just won't give up and die.

-Moox

He also won't contribute much to the fight, compared to the rest of the party.

Then this monk is a terrible player, it seems to me. I hope he's having fun, at least. But he might want to read a guide or two for playing a good monk.

1. Monks are not that mobile. They are slower and less maneuverable than people who can fly. That is a huge number of classes. They are also slower / not much faster than anything with a mount.

So really they are faster than:

unmounted paladins, fighters, barbarians (but only at some levels),rogues, and maybe clerics

But slower than:

wizards,bards, summoners, druids, sorcerers, mounted paladins, barbarians at some levels

2. Flurry is less preferable over other mellee options because 1) it is expensive...AotMF are super expensive, 2) monks need more diverse ability scores to avoid sucking 3) crits really boost damage and monks lack good crit options both because of their base weapon and because the crit feats depend on bab and monks have medium bab.

3. Monks have ok defenses. Not the best in the game. Paladins have better saves. They heal as a swift action a tons of times per day and have better ACs, especially when it counts. They also have more hit points. They get solid immunities. They can remove status afflictions. That is better than evasion.

4. Monks have a good debuff in stunning fist, but at no level is it the best. At low level, Color Spray is better, at high levels crit feats are better. Plus you really have to pimp wisdom to keep competitive. That comes at a cost.

Monks are like bards. They aren't the best at anything. But they have a little of everything.

Aha! A cool-headed, well-reasoned response that responds to my points in order, albeit briefly. I thank you, John Spalding.

A reposte to your responses:

1. You make an excellent point here. Once flying becomes very common (in my experience, only around level 10 and up), the monk's speed does not make him the fastest or most maneuverable character that you could possibly have in an imagined universe. Even your point about Barbarians is valid, although the monk outdistances them at level 4. However, your argument, insofar as you seek to show the monk is inferior, is flawed in two ways:

Firstly, for most of the game flying is a limited resource. Spells run out. Wizards and others that use their spell slots to fly aren't doing many other useful things. Having a high speed is paramount, particularly because of who is doing the moving. In other words, a high speed is much more important for the monk than for the wizard, bard, summoner, druid, sorcerer, or witch. Man, I hope the sorcerer didn't waste a spells known slot on Fly without thinking long and hard. Also, the Monk can bust a Ki point for +20 to speed!

Secondly, mounts are not maneuverable anywhere but in the open (think carefully before playing a monk in Kingmaker), and maneuverability is not just a function of your speed but also your Acrobatics check. This is because of narrow corridors, Difficult Terrain, spells, and other effects such as Blindness. Of the melee combatants, the Monk is going to have the highest Acrobatics.

2. You once again make good points, but here I'm afraid you fell prey to a few short catch-phrases without really defining your meaning or responding to my article. Of course you are free to do as you please, but this means I have to now define and expand these terms.
Your 2-1). A monk using Flurry is not going to do as much damage as a fully-kitted-out fighter with TWF feats etc. I said as much in my original article didn't I? I believe that this is an intentional design flaw, as the Monk essentially gets all those feats FOR FREE. I believe that they are intentionally designed to be unable to pump those attacks and damages even higher, so that they are not overpowered and can use their feat slots for other interesting and powerful choices. Also, the monk can bust a Ki point for an extra attack at the highest bonus!
Your 2-2) Yup, they have a MAD problem. Also mentioned in my original article, although I now realize I didn't specifically respond to that point as I intended. It was meant to go into the "Master of Defense" section: Monks don't HAVE to put points into Wisdom or Dexterity. If they don't want to. Sure, you want to. But unlike other classes that DEPEND on an ability score, monks don't. Build a monk with 14's in Wisdom and Dexterity and see how high your AC and touch AC can go. You don't have to have all 18s in your important scores to have a powerful, useful, and effective character.
Your 2-3) Crit feats boost damage? I have to wait a little longer to take them? Okay, but who cares? Getting the highest possible DPR is not the goal here. The goal is to have GOOD damage, VERY good damage, while doing a whole bunch of other things. And a well-played monk will have good damage.

3) Paladins are strong on defense. Very strong. Yes, the defense specialist, the Paladin, will have certain defenses that are higher than a monk's. He won't get to stun, flurry, etc, but never mind that. The monk is STILL going to have certain defenses that are better, because they are the masters of the well-rounded defense! Let us compare:

AC: Paladins win. Heavy armor plus possibly riding feats, plus possibly spells etc. Nevertheless, the monk isn't going to be far behind when he spends a Ki point for +4 AC. What does "when it counts" mean? Me, I would use it to refer to the AoO, which if the Monk can't avoid with Acrobatics, hopefully his Mobility free feat can deal with.

Will and Fort saves: Paladins win again. Charisma bonus plus good saves in these categories means they are among the absolute toughest to harm in this manner. Go Pally! Of course, the Monks won't be far behind, since they get these as good saves too.

Ref save: Monks win! Paladins still get a Charisma bonus to help them out (and may even be superior at level 1), but for most of the game the monk is going to be far and away better at jumping out of the way. And Evasion helps a massive amount more against a Fireball (or many similar spells) than Lay on Hands does. Why? Because Lay on Hands can't make up the damage from a 10th-level fireball compared with the ability to passively take zero.

Hit points: Paladins win, but not by all that much. One die type plus the ability to heal earlier in the game. Impressive, but not spectacularly so.

Touch AC: Monks win by an insane amount. At level 10, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a Monk with a Touch AC 12 higher than the party Paladin. That's pretty impressive. In my experience, many of the worst spells and effects in the game are made against touch ac. A vital stroke in the monk's favor.

Flat-footed AC: Paladin wins if the Monk hasn't taken precautions against this, but it's not going to be as much of a difference as you might think.

Immunities: Are the monk immunities feeble by comparison to the paladin? I really don't feel this way, but I could possibly be wrong.

Running away: Monk wins. UNLESS you are a mounted paladin playing in a wide, empty stone hallway, or outdoors on a flat plain with no defining features. But the undeniably high base speed plus vastly better acrobatics means most of the time, when things go sour, the Monk has a better defense. Plus, greater maneuverability is a very powerful form of defense when you can position yourself around a corner, etc.

Your 4) Stunning Fist: "Not the absolute best" is not an argument. As I mentioned in the article, the ability to slip a very powerful debuff (in some cases it means death) into the middle of a flurry of damaging attacks is very powerful and useful. Can someone else do that without high-level critical feats and a lucky roll?
Monks get stunning fist for free, and let me tell you, it is intimidating. The need to pump Wisdom is there. You need to pump it for AC anyway. Other people are going to pump other things. There's no inherent problem with that unless you mean to bring up the whole MAD question all over again. In that case, I can only say that if the DC were based on Strength all the game-breakers would be playing Monk exclusively.

The fact that you say monks are like bards makes me very happy! It's true! Both classes are under appreciated but they get to share the spotlight in nearly every encounter. Parties that have one always seem to do better. They are there when you need them most.

I hope you feel that I've given your organized response my full thought. I respect your opinion, and I hope you take my attempt to convince you otherwise in stride. It's very refreshing to hear an argument that actually responds to my article.

Sincerely,
-Moox

@OP: I am still fairly new to this game, but from what I know and what I just read in your first post...I am sold! I especially appreciate your point about the defensive nature of the monk. I have a monk PC in our group and it seems like his is always the hardest to hit with weapons or spells.

Very nice post!

Always great to hear that I reached someone! It's true, isn't it? The monk just won't give up and die.

-Moox

Hmm, I like the concept.
It's a bit too elf-like for me in terms of the stats. In addition, I think the crucial aspect of foxes is not just brains but the telling of excellent lies and a certain force of personality. I'd drop the bonus to DEX and give them a bonus to CHA instead.
Now they're getting a bit too gnome-like. So how about a bonus to Acrobatics--possibly instead of Stealth?
I would also make the bonus rounds to Polymorph part of the base stats rather than an alternate: that's a cool thing! Not really very powerful, so it seems perfect for a little "extra helping."
Hope the suggestions help. Awesome race design!

-Moox

It's interesting how much of the counter-monk argument appears to boil down to "well, a fighter could do that with items and then get more damage."

The ability to spend enormous amounts of gold just to have parity in a particular ability of the monk (speed, touch AC, etc) doesn't mean that those advantages are meaningless. Monks begin with these advantages; they don't have to work doubly hard to achieve them.

The monk can contribute in a number of ways, and can spend money on items other than boots of speed etc. Not all monks take the Vow of Poverty!

There's little that strikes more fear in my heart as a GM than a monk player with Mage Armor, a ring of protection, and Ki points for AC. I can't enspell the monk reliably, can't reliably hit with weapon attacks, and I can't even GET AROUND the monk because his/her CMD is too high!
It's pretty crazy. And fun for the player.

-Moox

Dragonsong wrote:

Moox a bit of constructive criticism, coming from an academic writers background here...

When your opponent's criticisms are on the order of 'heard it all before, you're wrong', its silly to spend any amount of time attempting to refute them. You can't refute someone who doesn't bring an argument to the table. Sarcasm is exactly the right retort in that case.

Resounding agreement here. +100 to Ave Imperator, and thank you!

LilithsThrall wrote:

A fact that keeps getting overlooked is that Wis and Dex, both impact just about everything for a Monk (and this becomes even more true with agile manuevers and both weapon finesse, and power attack).

That means that while other characters are buying more powerful magic weapons, armor, etc., the monk can go much further by just buying stat boosters.

In another thread I'm building a 28pt buy polearm fighter...i think this comment along with the one about bullrushing the opposing wizard has made me realize that I should play a monk.

I also play in a min/max heavy group with a bloodthirsty DM. But I still want to play a monk. They aren't better at any one role at anything, but the versatility makes them just nasty. Qingong monk is a beautiful archetype and there's alot that can be done with it. Reminds me of the versatility of playing a 3.5 binder.

Nice, I hope that works out! One of the benefits of playing a monk with a bloodthirsty DM is that they can't really design encounters that play to your weaknesses, because you have defense from all corners.

To the people who have said "I've seen all this before and have argued it down elsewhere..." I'm sorry that I didn't trawl through endless pages of posts just to make sure I'd never repeated anything said before. Maybe I said it better, in my own essayist manner. Or maybe I didn't, and I should have wasted an enormous amount of time tracking down your arguments and reading them. Next time I'll be sure to avoid writing anything, so as not to bore you.

Sincerely,
-Moox

Moox wrote:

Mergy wrote:

If a fighter can't get to a druid, he'll pull out his mighty composite longbow, and full attack the tree-hugger to pieces.

Indeed. Then this person is playing a good fighter. The fighter will, however, be doing less damage than the monk, having chosen feats geared toward melee combat.

Also, what if the druid stands behind a tree? Or he's a druid/monk with Deflect Arrows?
The point is not to prove the fighter can't be effective, but that in the infinite variety of possible encounters, sometimes the monk will be more effective.

-Moox

I hardly think this debate helps either side. The druid turns into a bird and flies over the head of both the monk and fighter. You can both keep bouncing back and forth changing the specifics of the situation, it's still not constructive.

Perhaps. Allow me to repeat: "The point is not to prove the fighter can't be effective, but that in the infinite variety of possible encounters, sometimes the monk will be more effective."

-Moox

I know one of the things that a monk is able to do is get to target quickly, but that just seems really risky ya know?

I mean, it's cool if you get to the wizard in time, but I don't want our intrepid monk to suddenly get ganged banged by mooks.

That just seems bad for his health.

No matter the role, one should play carefully. Perhaps there's an angle where he won't be assaulted by mooks? Possibly he can bull rush this wizard into a more advantageous (for the monk) position? Or perhaps this would be an appropriate time to bust a Ki point for +4 AC.

-Moox

Moox wrote:

I was simply referring to the fact that the fighter will have a VERY hard time getting into melee combat range. Indeed, he/she may never reach the Druid.

-Moox

Let's assume he makes the check. It's difficult terrain, so 1 square counts as two.

Speed 30ft, double move 60.
So he can move 6 squares while in the area. Chances are if he's not in the exact center of the spell, he gets out on his turn.

If he fails his first save, he's out in 2 turns.

The Fighter's speed is 20 feet due to heavy armor. It would be approximately 4 or 5 turns before the fighter could reach our imaginary 1st-level druid. All from casting one spell. Multiple entangles means the fighter never reaches the druid, in this hypothetical scenario.

I truly liked your point above about skewing, although I don't believe that having a high STR score means you're competing with the fighter.

-Moox

I'm a rules-enthusiast who likes to play optimized characters and I like monks just fine. :)

The way I usually build a monk is around having a very high initiative and maxing out my CMB for grappling and tripping.

You don't have to be a monk to have a 10+ initiative bonus with which to act first, charge across the room, tumble past any AoOs, and grapple a flat-footed spell-caster before they've cast a single spell - but it is a niche that the monk can inhabit very easily, from level 1 on - and one they just keep getting better at until about level 12 when all melee classes start to enter obsolescence.

An excellent phrasing. I applaud your effective use of the monk.

-Moox

If a fighter can't get to a druid, he'll pull out his mighty composite longbow, and full attack the tree-hugger to pieces.

Indeed. Then this person is playing a good fighter. The fighter will, however, be doing less damage than the monk, having chosen feats geared toward melee combat.

-Moox

+1 my good sir. You should write for Paizo. ;)

I will, if they'll have me. :)

-Moox

The only problem with this thought process is when you include people who scour the rules to get the best possible AC, Damage output, etc.....

the monk would be a great addition to any party until you put him in a party with Min/maxers coupled with DMs who adjust encounters for the Min/Maxers. Unfortunately in my experience any melee oriented character MUST have the best possible Attack bonus or he is not able to really be decent in melee. Any guy trying to do damage better be maxed out or his damage is gonna be minor compared to the 10th level dude cranking out a billion damage who has made the DM adjust the Baddies to have Max HP or more.
I like the monk but if I ever tried to play on in one of my games it would be a joke....a long, agonizing, exercise in futilely trying to get him to be able to make a worthwhile contribution.
This is not a rant against Monks, but against playstyles that don't allow Monks to be viable in most games.

I think that stems more from a difficulty you appear to have in finding ways to make the monk overpowered. I believe it can be done, much like your 10th level dude who has forced the DM to give enemies max HP. That is also a sign of a DM who has failed in his or her duty to interpret rules carefully and make choices about what to allow and from which books.

-Moox

Moox wrote:

Name Violation wrote:

monks are great if you want to be slightly above average at a lot of various tricks. Most classes can specialize in a lot of the tricks and pull them off better while sacrificing something (usually stunning fist and unarmored ac)

a fighter specialized in unarmed fighting with boots of teleportation can dish out more damage than a monk, and beat them at most of what they do. while wearing full plate or a breastplate

but i still play a lot of monks. its about player creativity and a DM going along with your concept. but "pure RAW" monks are at the low end of the power spectrum

I'm afraid I have to disagree. If the encounter takes place outdoors against an enemy casting entangle from a large distance, your fighter will be doing zero damage. And are 1st-level druids all that rare?

The monk will get there in one piece and do a lot more than zero damage (dice lords permitting).

-Moox

Entangle isn't an instawin spell....

Entangled creatures can attempt to break free as a move action, making a Strength or Escape Artist check. The DC for this check is equal to the DC of the spell.

A Fighter can make a Strength check DC 15 from that Druid.

I was simply referring to the fact that the fighter will have a VERY hard time getting into melee combat range. Indeed, he/she may never reach the Druid.

-Moox

monks are great if you want to be slightly above average at a lot of various tricks. Most classes can specialize in a lot of the tricks and pull them off better while sacrificing something (usually stunning fist and unarmored ac)

a fighter specialized in unarmed fighting with boots of teleportation can dish out more damage than a monk, and beat them at most of what they do. while wearing full plate or a breastplate

but i still play a lot of monks. its about player creativity and a DM going along with your concept. but "pure RAW" monks are at the low end of the power spectrum

I'm afraid I have to disagree. If the encounter takes place outdoors against an enemy casting entangle from a large distance, your fighter will be doing zero damage. And are 1st-level druids all that rare?

-Moox

starting to slow down here fellas ! the monks suck thread is like blowing up.

we need a pick me up.

ahem....clears throat...... monks are sweet because they can play football and soccer and kick you in the throat.

also if you have a fat drunk monk he is still as dangerous as a skinny neroxic monk they are killers no matter there weight level!

That's right!

A SERIOUS ARGUMENT FOR THE MONK

Introduction

It has been said by many that monks are underpowered in Pathfinder for various reasons, including a less-than-full base attack bonus, a less-than-maximum damage output, and a multiple-ability-dependency. While I do not seek to disprove any of these points, I would argue that once you leave the world of theorycrafting and enter actual gameplay, monks begin to shine and their role becomes quite clear. We will go through several points one at a time, responding to the potential pitfalls as we proceed.

A Mobile Warrior

While one should look elsewhere for gaining the maximum in certain combat statistics, the monk becomes the star when movement is required. When well designed and played, a monk is unmatched by any in terms of mobility on the battlefield. With no need for armor, the monk avoids both speed loss and the armor check penalty that would otherwise apply to Acrobatics and the like.
In addition, the monk gains speed increases with level, quickly becoming the fastest creature on the field. With the addition of ki points to increase speed, even a mid-level monk can outrun almost anything in the game.
Now, movement on the battlefield is vital for several reasons. Firstly, controlling the battle is all about positioning. Where you are in relation to the enemy, how you predict their movements, set up tactical advantages, and innumerable other factors all rely on speed. Second, getting to the fight in time is almost as important for a warrior as being effective when he or she arrives. While the slower and armor-wearing warriors are stumping along, struggling to get in front of the softer caster targets, the monk may arrive suddenly and unexpected, like lightning out of a clear sky. Third, countering slowing effects and sticky situations can often be impossible without a great speed. In an encounter with difficult terrain, with enemies casting darkness and entangle effects, slower warriors can be mired for hours and worn down to death. The monk can run or leap out of these areas and bring the offense to the enemy instead of lying down in despair.
As soon as you stop having all your encounters in a small stone hallway and enter the world of adventure on real and complex terrain, a mobile warrior becomes a key component of any group.

The Power of Flurry

Monks have a powerful ability called Flurry of Blows, which allows them to make a dangerous full attack with a bonus as if they had a full base attack bonus. They gain this ability at first level, and it scales as they increase in power. This ability alone makes a Monk dangerous and effective in combat. It is true that their numbers fall slightly below a fighter or similar who takes all the two-weapon fighting feats that monks are assumed to have in Flurry. However, this doesn’t matter. Such a fighter would lack all the abilities and options that a monk possesses, while specializing heavily in one aspect of combat. A monk can be a master of the same thing without being the best, most damaging example that could possibly exist. They can have less than the best possible average damage in return for a deluge of powerful abilities in other areas.
One of the most common complaints regarding the monk has to do with their three-fourths base attack bonus. It is true that monks are a melee warrior class, and that they need to hit their targets just like everyone else. However, I would argue that the three-fourths base attack bonus is the only thing keeping monks back from sweeping all competition out of the water. Imagine a monk that could speed in and out of the battle every turn, hitting with the maximum bonus available in the game, and zipping away at will. It is appropriate to have a monk required to stand still and use a Flurry of Blows to get such a powerful attack in. Keep in mind that a monk is not a fighter without armor. A monk fulfills a powerful and unique role.

The Master of Defense

While they don’t always have the absolute highest number that one could possibly build for in a defense, monks are the hardest to kill of any base class. James Jacobs once stated that the monk is a defensive class, and he was correct; however, his phrasing has been misinterpreted by many.
A defensive class doesn’t mean that you only play responsively to the enemy, struggling to catch up in damage while reducing the amount taken. Nor does playing a “tank” literally mean wearing metal and advancing slowly and ponderously over the field while carrying the heaviest weapons. It means having the best defense available in all areas, and taking the enemy’s blows when others can’t.
The monk has the most well-rounded defense in the game. They are the one and only class with all good saves. I am tempted to put that in all caps: ALL GOOD SAVES. They can be built with a very high armor class (if not the highest possible in the game), and can pump that higher with a ki point. Nobody else can say that they don’t have an Achilles heel in any area. No matter what attack the game throws at a monk, whether it be axe-wielding cyclopes or fireball-hurling demons, the monk has a strong defense. This well-rounded defense makes the monk arguably the best tank in the game; where the fighters and paladins stumble in the face of a lightning bolt, the monk leaps away and has evasion to escape the entirety of the damage. A monk can direct attention to him/herself and then escape the consequences no matter what kind they might be.

Adaptability and Threat

While the monk may not be the most adaptable nor necessarily the most dangerous in the party, the class is very well designed to do both of these. With ki points, the monk can gain an incredible boost to AC, speed, or an additional attack in the round. As three things the Monk is already good at, the ability to become truly great at one of them in a round is crucial. Whether attack or defense is paramount at that moment, the monk can shine if necessary.
Finally, the monk does indeed pose an enormous threat to the enemy right at level one. This threat comes via Stunning Fist. With the ability to simply slip a stun into a flurry of attacks, the monk has the potential to deal damage and inflict one of the worst effects in the game, all in one turn. Here the monk synergizes extremely well with other warriors in the party, allowing them to move into position without provoking an AoO, set up a flank, and attack a flat-footed enemy with impunity. Avoiding a situation where the monk gets off a Flurry of Blows plus a ki point bonus attack plus a Stunning Fist plus a number of other effects from bonus feats could be absolutely critical in a fight. However, with the monk’s speed and array of movement abilities, avoiding that deadly situation may be impossible.

Conclusion

In the end, we find that monks have a number of places they excel, and an impressive array of unique abilities or combinations that few can match. The monk has a place in almost any party, and can shine almost no matter what kind of encounter they face. Playing a monk can be an enjoyable, fun, and even optimized experience for them and their thankful party members.

Enjoy,
-Moox

P.S. Monks: Why they so frickin’ rad?
P.P.S: I'll be posting this on gamingmage.com tomorrow, if you're interested.

DR can actually be bypassed by a high enough enhancement bonus. I don't remember them exactly, but Adamantium can be bypassed by +4, Alignment by +5, I think Cold Iron/Silver is +3.

I actually never thought about property + Magic Fang/Weapon. That sounds like an interesting idea, if really expensive.

Where is the rule for this?

I am a wizard, and I can break your body with my MIND !
THIS, is rad and totally awesome. Also, barbarian + greataxe = 2 (1/2 monk).

EVIL, I SAY !

So go start a thread about how awesome wizards are. I will go there and celebrate with you.

Also, Monks are awesome because they are the best tanks. A fighter/paladin/etc is great if you're in a small room with a slow-moving enemy. For a big room with spellcasters and ranged attacks, you need the monk! Dodge those fireballs and catch those arrows!

-Moox

Monks are awesome because they can get to the fight and be dangerous when they get there.
Monks are awesome because they have all good saves.
Monks are awesome because of ki points.
Monks are awesome because they can do things no one else can do.

-Moox

YES. Very excited!
In my opinion, the Bestaries have been excellent things. I find about 33% of the monsters fit my criteria for excellent monsters, and another 33% are almost as good.

The quick advancement rules are genius.

I can hardly wait for Bestiary 3!

-Moox

Here's a fun homebrew option:
http://gamingmage.wordpress.com/2011/04/10/sunday-spell-spontaneity-enhance r/
I agree that a couple sorcerer-only spells are a must.

Moox

I like those uses of Wish, and would allow them, with a save and SR applied.

In all honesty, what is to stop a PC from wishing the BBEG was dead? Game over?

You can't really misinterpret it. You can apply a save and SR, but those can be overcome.

"I wish X was destroyed." One failed save and the game is over unless you call in the direct influence of the gods? But what if there are gods who support your actions?

I've been struggling with this idea for some time, and I'd love to hear a workable way around.

-Moox

stuff about bacon and doing something ridiculous as a technique

Hahahaha! You, sir, are quite hilarious. I don't know if that level of insanity would really be fun for my group, but I've definitely had the experience where a silly decision led to awesome things happening in the game. I'll keep that in mind, Quirken :)

I think I may get what Moox is saying here. I'm not sure, but I do know that I've encountered situations that sound similar to what Moox is going through. I think in my cases the events that the party cares about that happened "before" the adventure are things that were critical to the character creation and concept phase of the game, and with many players, those conceptual things become critically important role playing guides for the character. For example, my 4e ranger was kidnapped as a child by slavers and raised as a slave. Several events, including his escape from the slavers, are deeply written into his character concept, so deep that he will choose non-optimized options because they match his concept which is still driven by the pre-game "event" of his capture and escape.

There is really very little that has occurred "in game" that has had anything like a similar impact to that character, although many very traumatic events have occurred. The closest thing to an in-game event that has had a similar impact revolves around a side plot-point about saving his sister from gladiatorial imprisonment, which again is tied to the original capture and escape that drives much of his behavior.

Aha! Yes, you've just about got it now. I play with good players, who respond well to storytelling and want to play the story while making their own choices. However, nothing in-game seems to be having the impact it should. I feel like it's me, and I'm trying to figure out how to fix that.

Maybe there's some hidden conflict between the players?

Hmmm. We have our occasional conflicts, like other gaming groups. It's inevitable when you run weekend marathon sessions like ours (often 10+ hours). However, I don't think that's the problem. As I mentioned in the OP, we've talked about the problems a lot, at least for Idaro. Yet it's not getting fixed. I'm just looking for fresh ideas and ways to shake things up, which is exactly what I'm getting, so thanks to everyone :)

-Moox

Revenge is usually a concept I introduce in a game after a significant amount of playing time when the PCs actually have something to avenge that occurred in-game. Events that occurred before the game starts typically aren't factored. It's very hard to play a truly vengeful character when there isn't a significant amount of material covered in-game.

While it's one thing to assume players can play a role, it's another thing when they're thrown into this role with no connection. The PCs did train for years with the masters, but the *players* didn't control the PCs during this time. The sense of loss is difficult to convey at the beginning of a game. . . especially when the entire game is built on the concept of satisfying that revenge.

You say you're not railroading, but asking a player to play a character focused on revenge is railroading in another form. You can't necessarily assume the players will actually care one way or another. The *PCs* might care, but the connection between the PCs and players is very weak.

That sounds true. However, for me, the opposite has always been true without fail. In Idaro, the destruction of the temple occurred IN-game rather than before the story.

-Moox

You also have to be careful with campaigns that have cultural or religious concepts that are foreign to the players in real life, because they do not have a basis for their experiences and translating those into character. That is why oriental campaigns are not as popular as concepts from western culture. The same could be stated with heavy religious overtones, if they are not similar to western based concepts. You will have to go the extra mile to translate these experiences, and there is a greater chance you will get burned out doing it.

Interesting points there. However, I feel pretty confident about the "translation" of these games. Things have been running very smoothly up until recent events. My players have been very into the game, getting into theological discussions in TGE, and tapping into zen precepts and history-based adventures in Idaro.

-Moox

IdaRo. Haha!
I don't know if Scooby-Doo would survive this harsh world...

-Moox

Whoa, you go away for an hour and your thread goes crazy!

@ Brassbaboon: It is an honor to get a response from you, sir! I always think you run the types of games I'd love to play in.
Thanks very much for the perspective. It is quite true that things which are obvious to the GM are almost always less so to the players. I've run into that problem many times in the past, and I do try to communicate things clearly to the players without utterly breaking the fourth wall. However, I think in this case it's more of a lack of impetus than a lack of understanding.
Recently, the players were on their way to meet a figure called "The Nightcrawler King"--a somewhat ambiguous figure, being evil yet not always siding with evil over history. They were traipsing through very dangerous country in order to meet with him as well as raid a treasure tomb nearby. Well, they finished up with the tomb and were preparing to move on to the King...and then one of them goes, "Meh. The Nightcrawler King is kind of scary. You know what, why go to see this guy? Whatever, let's go do something else. But what else is there to do?" And I'm left despondent at the end of the session. It's as if they care about their characters, but don't care about their motivations or about actually accomplishing what they set out to do.

@Karkon: Thanks for further tips! Unfortunately, I really don't think an "in medias res" style would fly with my group, at all. If ANYthing significant happens while players are out of the room, these normally fun, polite people get very angry. We recently had a huge dust-up over this very thing, actually. Player's freedom of choice, as well as the opportunity to set things up right going into any adventure, is very important to my group. I think that brassbaboon is correct in this instance about the objections that would be raised, EVEN if there were no detriment to the players at all. Still, the concept of a more get-to-the-action style might help considerably.

@Luthia: Those are all great ideas, although they do require me to ask people to do more work. I've pared my campaign guides down to one helpful page for a reason. People will read beyond that, but they won't remember it or incorporate those further pages into their identities. The problem is less one of player involvement than of players believing that what they do is...important, perhaps? I do really like the idea of e-mailed about personal plotlines, although I'm unsure about making those make sense in the group story.
I really like the idea for solving the backtrack issue! I had actually planned something very similar, but foolishly planned for it to occur after the backtracking had taken place! Your comment has made me realize that there's not really a need for such backtrack, and a twist involving the players discovery of a slippery plot like that would be absolutely amazing. It will make both them and myself feel awesome. An important part of getting things back on track. Thanks, Luthia!

@Brambleman: Why, thanks! I do try hard to come up with unique campaign settings and ideas. In Idaro, I do want to be careful about railroading, so a plot coming up and slapping them in the face would have to be carefully and clearly justified. That's something to consider, so thank you.

@ProfPotts: thank you very much for those excellent suggestions. Now that you say it, you may be absolutely right about the sympathetic NPC. Nobody wants to do what the know-it-all says. Everyone wants to rescue the person in distress.
Thing is, I've definitely tried that in the past. It works all right, but once the players deal with the immediate problem they just want to celebrate and move on. They'll listen with interest and appear to care very much about any hooks or plot points related to the sympathetic character...yet when that's over, for some reason it's as if they suddenly stopped caring, or at least caring very deeply. Perhaps three damsels in distress are in order (to combine the rule of three here, haha)!
The cliffhanger drives my players a bit crazy. I've used it, and it works, but can't be overdone, as I'm sure you know, professor. :)

Thanks!

-Moox

@ Kolokotroni:
Thanks very much for the tips. I have to admit I'm not familiar with the "rule of 3," but that sounds like a great tip and one I'm very interested in applying.

I like the recaps idea and I will give that one a try as well. I'm a bit worried that it will be a lot of work for little payoff, however. People tend not to read that stuff because they say, "Oh, I remember."

I'm REALLY liking the idea of shaking things up in a humongous way! I've been keeping another idea or two in the back of my mind for a new campaign. Maybe I can pull that off...
However, that might ruin the storylines I have going. I wouldn't want to shake things up without a clear, legitimate storytelling method. I'll have to think about that.

@Karkon:
Thanks for the thoughts. I have to say that I TRIED to halt idaro, a couple months ago...but there was such a clamor for it to keep going that we started up again!
With the gaming schedule we have, we alternate the games based on who's in town. It's a system that really works, and would be perfect except for my personal problems. I really want to shake these games out like dirty bedding and freshen them up again somehow.

Thanks again!
-Moox

Hello awesome community,

I'm looking for some advice on how to freshen my game and get my roleplaying fun again. I have been the main GM for my gaming group for quite a while now. We actually have three games going, and I run two of them. Now before you point the finger and say, "there's your problem," allow me to add that I haven't had a problem before now.

It's been lots of fun, and these games have been running for over a year. I enjoy a certain modest respect as a GM in my local community, as I run very deep, "writerly" sort of games, with great epic storylines. I also do a gaming blog at gamingmage.com, with options and rules I allow for my players. However, the focus here is on my campaigns. Here's a bit about them:

One game is a 3.5 game, set in an asian-themed campaign world entitled Idaro and making heavy use of the Tome of Battle: the book of Nine Swords as a starting place. This campaign got off to a rocky start, but due to the determination of one player (the same guy who's running the third of our games--a Kingmaker game), the game got back on its feet and started running smoothly again. It's a dramatic tale of high adventure with a crazy twist ending where the PC's discover cracks in reality and discover that they are merely sheets of paper and dice on a table in my living room.

Idaro is fun to run, yet I have struggled since the beginning with motivating the characters. It all began when their martial arts temple and masters were annihilated in a surprise attack, and they left to seek revenge. But no matter how I twist it around, or what clues I drop in their path, somehow they just aren't...motivated. They don't know where to go, or what to do. Sometimes they will skip over obvious plot hooks (I recently fell to the level of using the Old Man NPC, who got ignored and bypassed)! Other times things just don't...get going. It's like they're not fully inhabiting their characters, or at least I'm not fully understanding how they inhabit those characters. There's been LOTS of discusssion out-of-game about this problem, so that's no solution.

The second game is The Great Escape, or TGE for short. This is a pathfinder game with a snakey theme. The players have been dropped into a deeply religious world, and were required to start as a divine-themed class. They are inside a gigantic city called Nakash, known as "The Slithering City," which is an unimaginably huge mechanical snake crawling over the country and eating everything. They need to fight and negotiate their way from the tail to the head, dealing with snakes, monsters, and "the eaten," or the local people of Nakash.

As you might be able to tell, I did a lot of planning for this campaign and insured a literally linear storyline would occur. There are great heresies to uncover and terrible adventures to be had. However, in a way I'm finding a similar problem occurring. My inspiration is drying up, as is player motivation. I just don't know how to sell the next plot point or adventure...I just dropped something in the game that requires the players to backtrack and save somebody in the tail of Nakash, and then make it back to the belly of the beast. As soon as I put it in the game I knew it was a bad idea. I had just worked out all the monsters and adventures available in the belly. What do I do?

Finally, to conclude this medley of strange requests: I'm just tired. I just don't have that spark of imagination or excitement about the game that I used to. I need something to get me going again. I can't really take a break from GMing, because nobody will step into my shoes. If I step down, the good times end for sure. Yet I find myself being extremely irritable, overly annoyed about people taking too long, making decisions based on pique, and a host of other bad moves I never used to make.

Any thoughts will be deeply appreciated and I promise to respond to them.

-Moox