Moox's page

Thanks for all the suggestions! I've got a map of an ice lair and stuff going, but now I'm tempted to try some of the ideas on here, especially from Third Mind and Gobo Horde.

For the record, I gave them 75% XP for escaping the dragon and nothing for anything inside the fortress that they didn't fight, which is just the way I like to do things. At my gaming table, this is considered fair, and really helps keep the players feeling like they got a reward commensurate with the challenge. For us, it sucks almost as much to get a bazillion XP for avoiding an encounter as it does to get crap XP for a super tough encounter; they both cheapen the experience.

Moox

Contention in the ranks maybe? The white dragon, knowing that the castle is under attack decides this is an excellent time for him to betray the giantess and steal the ring for himself as he had been planning all along. Pump up the giantess and her minions to make them an epic challenge for the PCs and in the middle of the encounter have the dragon and his kin burst in through the ceiling. It suddenly stops being about surviving and perhaps even beating a high level foe and instead becomes about being caught in the middle as the white dragon and his kin duke it out with the ice giantess and her minions. In the end the giant lies dead, the party has a new BBEG as the dragon has made off with the ring and there’s a room full of loot left behind, but to claim it they must fight off the giants they bypassed earlier, who’ve come to investigate the commotion.

Ahahahahahahaaaaaaahahahahhahahahahahaaaa *breathe* aaahahahahahahahhahaaaacanIpleaseplayinyourgame

--Moox

Nicos wrote:

I find your post hilarious, really. " I am the DM and if you do not do exactly th thing I have planned for you then I will kill your Pcs".

If they get TPKed while fighting the BBEG that is fine provided the DM run the encounter fairly, not for DM-rage as you advice.

Pardon me if I would be a bit ticked off to work really hard on a nice adventure and then the PCs decice "screw it, we're gonna storm the BBEG's fortress instead", leading to delays in gaming and a loss of productive time.

I don't put in hard work on a stage just for it to be skipped. That's disrespect on the part of the PCs.

littlehewy wrote:

Players should be punished for having good ideas and avoiding encounters that aren't necessary to engage in?

Wha?

That's the weirdest thing I've read on here for ages. And I've been checking out some of shallowsoul's posts...

They didn't just avoid encounters, they avoided entire stages. That's not a "good idea", that's called "derailing the campaign". I won't have that at my table.

If I put hard work into an adventure, I expect it to be played out.

I foresaw that this might happen, and put in an ancient white dragon to deal with it. I'm totally fine with the way things worked out, I'm just somewhat unprepared. See my post above :)

--Moox

If this thread were to NOT get hijacked into a discussion of...stuff, that would be super cool.

--Moox

The thing is, just because they are at her abode does NOT mean she's home.

So, move some of the other, lesser encounters you meant to have to her tower, for them to chew through...multiples of them, enough to drive the characters back out, hopefully running for their lives.

The next time they try to get in, teleport wards are in place to stop just that sort of thing, raise alarms, etc., and if they try to insert aerially, Elder Air Elementals come out after them.

They should get out with the idea that the sorceress is looking for something to help her...do whatever, which should lead to the next encounter site you have planned, and get the adventure back on track.

Seeing the giantess and her half-dozen bodyguards coming back to the tower on giant rocs whilst battling other minions should be enough to get them running, I would hope!

==Aelryinth

Amazingly enough, we've already done a pretty similar encounter: during the PC's escape from the frost giant prison the first time, they had to speed away from the pursuing giant army mounted on huge mammoths. They only escaped by flying over an ice plain that was a breeding ground for remorhazes! Things got real interesting when the party went down due to high winds and had to traverse the rest of the plain on foot...

Anyway, the main point of this plea for help is NOT "help me get the players to go through the fortress after all," but rather "help me design a memorable encounter quickly!"

Thanks for the help so far!

--Moox

Nicos wrote:

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:

Personally, I'd use this as an opportunity to teach them not to screw with the GM's plans.

Worst advice of the day u.u

How so?

When a DM creates content, it's a labor of love and it's hard work. For PCs to basically spit in your face and "har har we skipped it all" is way beyond insulting. Patience in a virtue, and if you run off to fight the final boss while woefully under-leveled, then it's your own fault if you die.

Want something more gentle? Fine. Create the stage for the level it was intended to be entered at. When they start getting their butts kicked in the first room, they should be smart enough to say "Geez, we're not strong enough to handle this yet." They'll retreat and go gain some power of their own before coming back.

A DM shouldn't nerf the BBEG just because the PCs find a way to fight him early. If anything, that sort of insolence needs to be punished, otherwise any schmuck could go in there and take deal with it. Then maybe the PCs will think twice about skipping several levels of content in the future.

Everyone has their own way of handling these things. In this particular case, I want the encounter to be a hefty, memorable challenge, but not crushingly hard. That's why I'm looking for some sort of extra twist or trick that the PC's can exploit in the encounter.

--Moox

All my favorite campaigns have had 3 players. It just works better for us.

Your characters will level faster anyway, and they'll have more treasure per person. It's very easy to balance them out by giving even more additional treasure, if they're struggling. If they're clever they'll probably overpower the monsters anyhow--3 players can mean fewer people to worry about.

In the Horror Campaign that I'm running, my 3 players routinely defeat monsters 2 or even 3 CRs above them. They are VERY much NOT optimized, taking abilities for flavor more than anything -- the ranger didn't even have a high enough Wisdom to cast spells until 8th level, when she negotiated for a +2 headband as a reward...

In addition, it is an extremely low-treasure game. I'm happy to report that the players have no problems whatsoever, and we are having a blast!

Enjoy the easier way of telling an interactive story--fewer main characters!

Moox

LilithsThrall wrote:

A fact that keeps getting overlooked is that Wis and Dex, both impact just about everything for a Monk (and this becomes even more true with agile manuevers and both weapon finesse, and power attack).

That means that while other characters are buying more powerful magic weapons, armor, etc., the monk can go much further by just buying stat boosters.

In another thread I'm building a 28pt buy polearm fighter...i think this comment along with the one about bullrushing the opposing wizard has made me realize that I should play a monk.

I also play in a min/max heavy group with a bloodthirsty DM. But I still want to play a monk. They aren't better at any one role at anything, but the versatility makes them just nasty. Qingong monk is a beautiful archetype and there's alot that can be done with it. Reminds me of the versatility of playing a 3.5 binder.

Nice, I hope that works out! One of the benefits of playing a monk with a bloodthirsty DM is that they can't really design encounters that play to your weaknesses, because you have defense from all corners.

To the people who have said "I've seen all this before and have argued it down elsewhere..." I'm sorry that I didn't trawl through endless pages of posts just to make sure I'd never repeated anything said before. Maybe I said it better, in my own essayist manner. Or maybe I didn't, and I should have wasted an enormous amount of time tracking down your arguments and reading them. Next time I'll be sure to avoid writing anything, so as not to bore you.

Sincerely,
-Moox

A SERIOUS ARGUMENT FOR THE MONK

Introduction

It has been said by many that monks are underpowered in Pathfinder for various reasons, including a less-than-full base attack bonus, a less-than-maximum damage output, and a multiple-ability-dependency. While I do not seek to disprove any of these points, I would argue that once you leave the world of theorycrafting and enter actual gameplay, monks begin to shine and their role becomes quite clear. We will go through several points one at a time, responding to the potential pitfalls as we proceed.

A Mobile Warrior

While one should look elsewhere for gaining the maximum in certain combat statistics, the monk becomes the star when movement is required. When well designed and played, a monk is unmatched by any in terms of mobility on the battlefield. With no need for armor, the monk avoids both speed loss and the armor check penalty that would otherwise apply to Acrobatics and the like.
In addition, the monk gains speed increases with level, quickly becoming the fastest creature on the field. With the addition of ki points to increase speed, even a mid-level monk can outrun almost anything in the game.
Now, movement on the battlefield is vital for several reasons. Firstly, controlling the battle is all about positioning. Where you are in relation to the enemy, how you predict their movements, set up tactical advantages, and innumerable other factors all rely on speed. Second, getting to the fight in time is almost as important for a warrior as being effective when he or she arrives. While the slower and armor-wearing warriors are stumping along, struggling to get in front of the softer caster targets, the monk may arrive suddenly and unexpected, like lightning out of a clear sky. Third, countering slowing effects and sticky situations can often be impossible without a great speed. In an encounter with difficult terrain, with enemies casting darkness and entangle effects, slower warriors can be mired for hours and worn down to death. The monk can run or leap out of these areas and bring the offense to the enemy instead of lying down in despair.
As soon as you stop having all your encounters in a small stone hallway and enter the world of adventure on real and complex terrain, a mobile warrior becomes a key component of any group.

The Power of Flurry

Monks have a powerful ability called Flurry of Blows, which allows them to make a dangerous full attack with a bonus as if they had a full base attack bonus. They gain this ability at first level, and it scales as they increase in power. This ability alone makes a Monk dangerous and effective in combat. It is true that their numbers fall slightly below a fighter or similar who takes all the two-weapon fighting feats that monks are assumed to have in Flurry. However, this doesn’t matter. Such a fighter would lack all the abilities and options that a monk possesses, while specializing heavily in one aspect of combat. A monk can be a master of the same thing without being the best, most damaging example that could possibly exist. They can have less than the best possible average damage in return for a deluge of powerful abilities in other areas.
One of the most common complaints regarding the monk has to do with their three-fourths base attack bonus. It is true that monks are a melee warrior class, and that they need to hit their targets just like everyone else. However, I would argue that the three-fourths base attack bonus is the only thing keeping monks back from sweeping all competition out of the water. Imagine a monk that could speed in and out of the battle every turn, hitting with the maximum bonus available in the game, and zipping away at will. It is appropriate to have a monk required to stand still and use a Flurry of Blows to get such a powerful attack in. Keep in mind that a monk is not a fighter without armor. A monk fulfills a powerful and unique role.

The Master of Defense

While they don’t always have the absolute highest number that one could possibly build for in a defense, monks are the hardest to kill of any base class. James Jacobs once stated that the monk is a defensive class, and he was correct; however, his phrasing has been misinterpreted by many.
A defensive class doesn’t mean that you only play responsively to the enemy, struggling to catch up in damage while reducing the amount taken. Nor does playing a “tank” literally mean wearing metal and advancing slowly and ponderously over the field while carrying the heaviest weapons. It means having the best defense available in all areas, and taking the enemy’s blows when others can’t.
The monk has the most well-rounded defense in the game. They are the one and only class with all good saves. I am tempted to put that in all caps: ALL GOOD SAVES. They can be built with a very high armor class (if not the highest possible in the game), and can pump that higher with a ki point. Nobody else can say that they don’t have an Achilles heel in any area. No matter what attack the game throws at a monk, whether it be axe-wielding cyclopes or fireball-hurling demons, the monk has a strong defense. This well-rounded defense makes the monk arguably the best tank in the game; where the fighters and paladins stumble in the face of a lightning bolt, the monk leaps away and has evasion to escape the entirety of the damage. A monk can direct attention to him/herself and then escape the consequences no matter what kind they might be.

Adaptability and Threat

While the monk may not be the most adaptable nor necessarily the most dangerous in the party, the class is very well designed to do both of these. With ki points, the monk can gain an incredible boost to AC, speed, or an additional attack in the round. As three things the Monk is already good at, the ability to become truly great at one of them in a round is crucial. Whether attack or defense is paramount at that moment, the monk can shine if necessary.
Finally, the monk does indeed pose an enormous threat to the enemy right at level one. This threat comes via Stunning Fist. With the ability to simply slip a stun into a flurry of attacks, the monk has the potential to deal damage and inflict one of the worst effects in the game, all in one turn. Here the monk synergizes extremely well with other warriors in the party, allowing them to move into position without provoking an AoO, set up a flank, and attack a flat-footed enemy with impunity. Avoiding a situation where the monk gets off a Flurry of Blows plus a ki point bonus attack plus a Stunning Fist plus a number of other effects from bonus feats could be absolutely critical in a fight. However, with the monk’s speed and array of movement abilities, avoiding that deadly situation may be impossible.

Conclusion

In the end, we find that monks have a number of places they excel, and an impressive array of unique abilities or combinations that few can match. The monk has a place in almost any party, and can shine almost no matter what kind of encounter they face. Playing a monk can be an enjoyable, fun, and even optimized experience for them and their thankful party members.

Enjoy,
-Moox

P.S. Monks: Why they so frickin’ rad?
P.P.S: I'll be posting this on gamingmage.com tomorrow, if you're interested.

Wild Shape/Elemental Shape into Large Air Elemental + Call Lightning. Tornado + bolts are pretty nasty, since you kill people with both your move action and your standard. If you speak Auran, summoning a large or larger Air Elemental works too.

Uh, I forgot to mention that the tornado causes the Call Lightning to switch to d10's!!!

Hence the amazing combo.
Moox

prismatic wall and illusionary wall covering it, Always a laugh when you know it's probable someone would try to climb it,

I did that once, but with Deeper Darkness instead of the illusionary wall. Teleported a PC to another plane, lols.

Wild Shape/Elemental Shape into Large Air Elemental + Call Lightning. Tornado + bolts are pretty nasty, since you kill people with both your move action and your standard. If you speak Auran, summoning a large or larger Air Elemental works too.

Poison combo: 2 Summon monsters I's for Stirge + Centipede (or anything with poison). Lower the Fort save, then poison. It's a one-two punch of death.

Hunted: Darkness + summon monster for a dog (or something else with scent).

Have fun!
Moox