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If this thread cannot get back on track it will get locked down. The tone and comments by some of the posters here is unacceptable. You know who you are. Clean it up.
Thanks (he says, assuming he isn't part of the problem...).
I hate to see threads locked, just because of the egos of a minority. It's unfair on the majority, who post useful points without winding anyone up.
We're talking about our imaginary friends in Pretendland, no-ones insulting our first-born.
If this thread cannot get back on track it will get locked down. The tone and comments by some of the posters here is unacceptable. You know who you are. Clean it up.
As an aside, I do not feel, at this time, there there needs to be a drastic increase in the amount of healing in the game. Channeling has certainly added a lot. I will consider the druid a bit further.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Yes, channeling certainly has added a lot. Thus my original point. But channeling was an improvement to a class not in need of improvement. I have played many clerics in the past, and I just don't recall a single occasion when I said to myself 'man, I don't get to do anything as a cleric, what a sucky class, I wish someone would fix it.'
Now, I have said that I like channel energy, I feel it speeds up the pace of the game quite a bit, and that's a good thing. But this speeding of the pace of play is simply not there if the party doesn't have a cleric. If the goal is to speed the pace of play, why limit that improvement to the system to a single class? Additionally, there just does not exist a counterpart mechanic for increasing the difficulty of encounters to keep pace with with this increase in party healing, which you said yourself "has certainly added a lot." Since the vast majority of foes the players will face are by definition, evil, even if they have a cleric with them, they just will not be able to match the players heal-for-heal, thus the actual challenge they pose to the party is significantly decreased in comparison to 3.5.
I am encouraged by the statement "I will consider the druid a bit further," and if the druid gets some sort of similar but less powerful ability, it will go a long way toward keeping the increase of speed-of-play a more universal quality of the game. However, that still leaves the issue of the decreased challenge of foes to the player characters.
It's because no other class outside of Paladin even channels energy.
It CAN be removed from your game if it is causing issues.
Lets not talk Druid buffs please, CoL will be back, and when he gets angry, eyes bleed!
Poorly thought? Sir, you wound me.
But since I refuse to be part of ANOTHER thread lock involving CoL, I acquiece.
I am a StrawMan, and I support this message.
...I think the normalization of Cure Spells vis a vis Druid Spell Level wouldn't be un-called for.
Incidentally, I think changing Druid Spontaneous Casting List to something more varied, but flavorful, instead of SNA 1-9, would be a decent change to the Druid (along the lines of Halfling Druid Racial Substituion up on Crystal Keep, but not Halfing Trickster focused). I see much less flavor rationale for them to constantly Summon Animals out of the nether than for Clerics to Cure/Wound spontaneously. More like Speak with Animals/Entangle, Call Lightening, etc... not Summoning. Future Feats/PrCs released to detail specific Druid Sects can change that list to be more specific for their Druidic bent, of course.
...But I DO like increased healing power/ Channel Energy of the Paladin.
That, and improving Smite & the Mount/Weapon/Domain? (pretty please!) really helps the Paladin fulfill the role that they are supposed to fill.
I don't think Channel Energy healing is really such a big problem. There doesn't need to be an explicit "mechanic" to make enemies more difficult to counter-act Channel Energy's benefit, you just make them more difficult. (I see people suggesting CL+1, and obviously Pathfinder's own adventures are going to be balanced around the rules they're written for) Plenty of people run games where the PCs don't have a Cleric/Druid/OR Paladin, and yet their game function perfectly fine.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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But channeling was an improvement to a class not in need of improvement.
the issue of the decreased challenge of foes to the player characters.
Well, you may believe it wasn't in need of improvement. A lot of others don't like playing Clerics because "all they do is heal." One of the two Clerics in our local groups wants to switch to a Duskblade (or Fighter/Wizard type) away from Cleric because all she does is heal. The other Cleric is in another game group and loves the Cleric but he has prestiged out and the Cleric is a glorified spell list since his Prestige Class is more levels than his bas Cleric level (6 Master of Radiance/5 Cleric.)
There isn't much trouble on the decreased challenge. Most good DM's need to operate off the "CR Charts" anyway, since their parties aren't always matching the CR they should be. In other words, for my 13th level group I need to throw CR19 encounters finely tuned for them to present a challenge. Granted, they are a 9 player party, but they are also quite skilled strategically. If I threw CR13 mobs at them, each encounter would last 2 rounds or less.
It amuses me greatly that even when I'm not saying anything, the other side goes on, and on, and on while trying to blame me for it all instead of just ya know, being quiet about it and returning to topic. No, don't bother responding to this. I've addressed the preexisting wrongness, so barring new logical failures I'm done here.
You can delete poorly thought out posts within 60 minutes of making them. Hint, hint.And since it was deleted now it looks like I've just popped in to make random comments about how the messageboards work.
Very well. Carry on.
:-D
There's just something about that guy that make me want to kill puppies. You were right though :)
But channeling was an improvement to a class not in need of improvement.
the issue of the decreased challenge of foes to the player characters.
Well, you may believe it wasn't in need of improvement. A lot of others don't like playing Clerics because "all they do is heal." One of the two Clerics in our local groups wants to switch to a Duskblade (or Fighter/Wizard type) away from Cleric because all she does is heal. The other Cleric is in another game group and loves the Cleric but he has prestiged out and the Cleric is a glorified spell list since his Prestige Class is more levels than his bas Cleric level (6 Master of Radiance/5 Cleric.)
There isn't much trouble on the decreased challenge. Most good DM's need to operate off the "CR Charts" anyway, since their parties aren't always matching the CR they should be. In other words, for my 13th level group I need to throw CR19 encounters finely tuned for them to present a challenge. Granted, they are a 9 player party, but they are also quite skilled strategically. If I threw CR13 mobs at them, each encounter would last 2 rounds or less.
and no wonder! 9 level 13 players makes a CR 13 (first four) +1 for each additional for a CR 18 party! Problem is, they are still only 13th level, and so have "glass jaws" against the higher level stuff. Try a band of 7 or so CR 13 bad guys, and see how it goes.
Yes, channeling certainly has added a lot. Thus my original point. But channeling was an improvement to a class not in need of improvement. I have played many clerics in the past, and I just don't recall a single occasion when I said to myself 'man, I don't get to do anything as a cleric, what a sucky class, I wish someone would fix it.'
I have. In many adventuring groups, there's a rush to not be the cleric, as the perception is you're going to be stuck in a support role all the time while the other 3 majors get to do interesting things. Channeling helps that a lot.
(point of order, there was a way to get ranged healing in 3.5e - with the Divine Ward feat from PHBII, where you could burn a turn to change touch to short range)
I don't think the druid has really ever been used in our campaigns as a healer; it's a tertiary function for them at best and I think buffing them on healing just makes them more "the same" as another class; work on them should be focused on making them unique and different.
Also, the reason that you aren't able to handle level-specific encounters is because your character is made terribly.
Just dropping the healing spells down a level would help the druid enough--after all, it's the class that's a tank that comes with its own tank. There's a reason that its spell list is weaker.
Agreed
Yes, channeling certainly has added a lot. Thus my original point. But channeling was an improvement to a class not in need of improvement. I have played many clerics in the past, and I just don't recall a single occasion when I said to myself 'man, I don't get to do anything as a cleric, what a sucky class, I wish someone would fix it.'
I have. In many adventuring groups, there's a rush to not be the cleric, as the perception is you're going to be stuck in a support role all the time while the other 3 majors get to do interesting things. Channeling helps that a lot.
(point of order, there was a way to get ranged healing in 3.5e - with the Divine Ward feat from PHBII, where you could burn a turn to change touch to short range)
I don't think the druid has really ever been used in our campaigns as a healer; it's a tertiary function for them at best and I think buffing them on healing just makes them more "the same" as another class; work on them should be focused on making them unique and different.
CoL:
You and I play very different games. Your style of play has validity in my eyes, I have no idea how valid you think my style of play is. However, in my style of play we intentionally restrict ourselves to a limited amount of content, and healing done by the healing focused classes actually has uses in combat, and combats can last anywhere from 10 rounds to 5 minutes.
Thus, I am sure that there are many people on this board who find the information you have posted useful to their play experience, however, since in my current play-test we are exclusively using content that paizo has released with PathfinderRPG, plus opponent stat-blocks from the original 3.5 SRD and paizo published adventure paths, such information is irrelevant to my play-test experience.
If you're having trouble with channel energy, you're playing the game wrong. The devs shouldn't have to cater to mouth-breathers because they--the retards--are the reason that 3e is broken.
If you're having trouble with channel energy, you're playing the game wrong. The devs shouldn't have to cater to mouth-breathers because they--the retards--are the reason that 3e is broken.
P_R, could you tone it down a shade? I respect you, but less so when you get like that.
Senior Software Developer
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Hey, Psychic_Robot -- calling people mouth-breathers and retards is not helping. I know you've been trying hard here to control your tone and avoid using the outrageous insults that I know you're capable of, but this is still over the line.
Please do not do that again.
[edit] To be perfectly clear -- do something like that again and you're getting a timeout.
Ok, back on topic.
I like the channeling. The guy playing the cleric in my group right now is a combat first and healing second. He enjoys both roles in their place.
I like buffing Paladin healing more than it is, but I don't like the idea of giving Druids channeling. Instead, how about some feats to let them spontaneous spells into cures?
If you're having trouble with channel energy, you're playing the game wrong. The devs shouldn't have to cater to mouth-breathers because they--the retards--are the reason that 3e is broken.
The only reason I breathe through my mouth is because my septum was destroyed when they removed half my brain after the car accident. But, if you tell me your phone number and address, I would love to come to your house so you can teach me how to play RPG's. In fact, all my friends would love to come over to your house so you can teach us. My mommy lets me take the bus all by my self now, so I can come over tomorrow if you want.
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Hey, Psychic_Robot -- calling people mouth-breathers and retards is not helping. I know you've been trying hard here to control your tone and avoid using the outrageous insults that I know you're capable of, but this is still over the line.
Please do not do that again.
[edit] To be perfectly clear -- do something like that again and you're getting a timeout.
Ummm...why wait?
Pychic_Robot, you are wrong. Your games are wrong. Your being in existance is wrong. Surrender to the right way to play a game. Resistance is futile.
Funny Things.
In any way, Snorter, I used that one and I got some good five minutes of pure laughter and tears that made my game impossible to continue for the next twelve minutes.
It was very good anyway.
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Senior Software Developer
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Ummm...why wait?
Because I think Psychic_Robot really wants the Pathfinder RPG to be the best it can be, and because I think he has been mostly making an honest effort to reign in his baser impulses. But he's slacked a bit recently, hence the warning. He knows (and may well disagree with) the guidelines for discussion here, but my impression is that he's been trying to play by the rules so far.
Jason's been watching these threads much more closely than I have, and if he disagrees with me I'll do the timeout or complete banhammer thing the instant he says I should.
Pychic_Robot, you are wrong. Your games are wrong. Your being in existance is wrong.
I understand the desire to do a funny here, but let's not go there right now.
Pychic_Robot, you are wrong. Your games are wrong. Your being in existance is wrong. Surrender to the right way to play a game. Resistance is futile.
species 817
Report to the paizomatrix for assimilation
CoL:
You and I play very different games. Your style of play has validity in my eyes, I have no idea how valid you think my style of play is. However, in my style of play we intentionally restrict ourselves to a limited amount of content, and healing done by the healing focused classes actually has uses in combat, and combats can last anywhere from 10 rounds to 5 minutes.
Thus, I am sure that there are many people on this board who find the information you have posted useful to their play experience, however, since in my current play-test we are exclusively using content that paizo has released with PathfinderRPG, plus opponent stat-blocks from the original 3.5 SRD and paizo published adventure paths, such information is irrelevant to my play-test experience.
*stare*
That guide is still useful. Last I checked, Pathfinder still had CLW wands, and it also has some weak out of combat healing that didn't exist before (Channel Energy). Sure, it doesn't have Greater Healing Armors, Lesser Vigor wands, etc. You can still use the stuff you can get to. Anything is better than nothing.
You are making 3.5 combats lasts 10 to 50 rounds which I presume is the typical state of things for you. Ok, 3.51. Close enough. Perhaps if you did not waste 90% of your actions on weak healing spells you might finish a single fight sometime this week. If you had strong healing spells, there would be incentive to use them. However, you do not because you do not have Heal yet. Greater Healing could also qualify simply because it's a Swift action, but that's not in 3.51.
Edit: You forfeit the right to take the moral high ground against PR the moment you start pulling stunts like that alt and the comment its responding to.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Pychic_Robot, you are wrong. Your games are wrong. Your being in existance is wrong. Surrender to the right way to play a game. Resistance is futile.species 817
Report to the paizomatrix for assimilation
Play fair guys. Gary's already intervened. There is no need for a sm*rfing of this thread.
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Ummm...why wait?Because I think Psychic_Robot really wants the Pathfinder RPG to be the best it can be, and because I think he has been mostly making an honest effort to reign in his baser impulses. But he's slacked a bit recently, hence the warning. He knows (and may well disagree with) the guidelines for discussion here, but my impression is that he's been trying to play by the rules so far.
Jason's been watching these threads much more closely than I have, and if he disagrees with me I'll do the timeout or complete banhammer thing the instant he says I should.
Pychic_Robot, you are wrong. Your games are wrong. Your being in existance is wrong.I understand the desire to do a funny here, but let's not go there right now.
WOW...those are his baser impulses? I'm sure he does want PFRPG to be the best it can be but even his baser impulses are destructive to the process.
We all know that gamers take their characters very seriously. Calling someones character crap or saying it sucks or is retarded because of the way the gamer built it is insulting to many. I'm sure he disagrees but that's the way it is.
Your the boss though. I just have to wonder how many "Warnings" people like P-R are going to get.
All of the discussions on the healing classes are missing the main change to healing that PathfinderRPG has introduced. Clerics and Paladins have been given an innate ability heretofore unheard of: the ability to heal allies AT RANGE.
I have no clue if this has already been pointed out, since I really CBA to find it right now, but this ability has existed since 3.0.
Reach Spell (Complete Divine page 84). Druids can get it, too. Granted, it's got a steep MM adjustment, and I don't know of anyone who would take it with that adjustment purely to heal, but it's still there.
Healing at range isn't anything new to pathfinder due to that, although after the first 3-4 levels for a cleric (when the channel could be considered comparable/better than the cure spells available), there's very little usefulness to using a channel to heal in battle at all. Paladin's never have a use for channeling in combat for healing purposes. But that's another thread entirely.
Once again, I apologize if this was already covered.
Also, and I may be wrong, but it seems the inability to take as many On-level encounters with your group two stems from the fact that one of your Big classes, the cleric, misses sessions. In group one, he's a fighter, and you still retain the conjuration wizard, a cleric, and a spiked-chain type character. No clue how the rogue plays his guy, but the cleric/wizard makes for some strong encounter endings in most use. Having a druid, a barbarian, and a fighter just doesn't have the same amount of encounter ending punch, assuming both parties are equally competently built. I think if it were the cleric character who was constantly there, and either your full-plate fighter or the barbarian who were missing sessions, you'd see those encounter numbers climbing back up closer to group 1's.
*stare*
That guide is still useful. Last I checked, Pathfinder still had CLW wands, and it also has some weak out of combat healing that didn't exist before (Channel Energy). Sure, it doesn't have Greater Healing Armors, Lesser Vigor wands, etc. You can still use the stuff you can get to. Anything is better than nothing.
You are making 3.5 combats lasts 10 to 50 rounds which I presume is the typical state of things for you. Ok, 3.51. Close enough. Perhaps if you did not waste 90% of your actions on weak healing spells you might finish a single fight sometime this week. If you had strong healing spells, there would be incentive to use them. However, you do not because you do not have Heal yet. Greater Healing could also qualify simply because it's a Swift action, but that's not in 3.51.
Edit: You forfeit the right to take the moral high ground against PR the moment you start pulling stunts like that alt and the comment its responding to.
Yes, I am quite aware of the existence of wands in the game, thank you.
And yes, my group fights combats that last between 10 and 50 rounds, and we do 5-7 of them in an evening, so it should be obvious to you that I am doing quite a bit more than healing in each combat, unless you think me such a skilled Lothario that I can sneak an extra 70-350 channel energy uses past my DM. Lucky for me, those I play with are skilled enough to avoid taking hits every single round of combat. Which is the point, healing in combat is not a useless act if those you are playing with are not just doing charge/power attack/stand still/full attack. There are quite a variety of defensive maneuvers available to characters in this game, try using some of them some time, and maybe your opponents' damage output won't out-pace your cleric's healing abilities all the time. In fact, try playing GURPS Modern, where a single hit from just about any weapon generally equals death, and maybe you will start to understand how important it is to avoid just standing still and soaking damage.
We have been playing D&D, GURPS, BESM, Battletech, and a variety of other RPGs and tactical combat simulation games for 25 years now. That said, I am quite sick of hearing how I don't know how to play the game, and how my characters 'are made of fail.' (if one is going to butcher the English language, one should at least try to be original about it.) Find yourself a group of players who have some inkling of how to move around in combat without taking damage every round like a bunch of mindless lemmings, and then tell me that combat healing is useless. I suggest you try playing with a group of Marines, I have always found they have quite a good grasp of tactical movement, cover and concealment mechanics.
Finally, I have no alts. I am quite happy to fight my own battles using the anonymous alias I originally picked. And if insinuating that a group of large, mentally challenged men are on a bus right now on their way to PR's house to 'learn' from him is taking the moral high-ground, why do I end up in so many bar-fights?
It has been pointed out multiple times there are many ways to heal at range even in 3.5 Core such as this one.
Based on the evidence presented from this and other factors that have manifested in this thread, it is fairly apparent Mabven's findings cannot be called conclusive unless one wishes to tell blatant lies regarding their assessment of his assessment.
Marines are the ones that take God wizards. Because ya know, they actually get tactics. Not 5' step full attack, or move and swing once crap.
Let's see... 5-7 fights, all dragging on for 10-50 rounds... 50 to 350 combat rounds in one evening. And I'm assuming you do other stuff besides fight so... what then? You get through entire rounds in 30-40 seconds each? As in all players act, all enemies act? I call utter bull****. Even if everyone always knows exactly what they will do it takes longer than that just to roll the damn dice.
Even if you are telling the truth... you make 4.0 fights look fast with your ineffectiveness. Yet you try to claim this works? I again call utter bull****.
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And yes, my group fights combats that last between 10 and 50 rounds, and we do 5-7 of them in an evening...
Where do you live?
The North Pole?
It has been pointed out multiple times there are many ways to heal at range even in 3.5 Core such as this one.
Based on the evidence presented from this and other factors that have manifested in this thread, it is fairly apparent Mabven's findings cannot be called conclusive unless one wishes to tell blatant lies regarding their assessment of his assessment.
Marines are the ones that take God wizards. Because ya know, they actually get tactics. Not 5' step full attack, or move and swing once crap.
Let's see... 5-7 fights, all dragging on for 10-50 rounds... 50 to 350 combat rounds in one evening. And I'm assuming you do other stuff besides fight so... what then? You get through entire rounds in 30-40 seconds each? As in all players act, all enemies act? I call utter bull****. Even if everyone always knows exactly what they will do it takes longer than that just to roll the damn dice.
Even if you are telling the truth... you make 4.0 fights look fast with your ineffectiveness. Yet you try to claim this works? I again call utter bull****.
You misunderstand me entirely, which is no surprise at this point. First, the prestige class you mention is not available at first level, while channel energy is. In fact, the availability of healing at range available at first level is the topic of the thread and has always been, which you would know if you bothered to read.
Second, 5-7 fights all lasting 10-50 rounds means that the vast majority last 10 rounds, and only climactic fights, with drawn-out, serial encounters, reinforcements and plot twists such as an enemy which when killed then turns into a powerful undead are the ones that last 50 rounds. If you are unfamiliar with such encounters, then it is obvious that you have not played any of paizo's adventure paths, because they have proven themselves to be quite adept at creating such interesting, serial encounters where you go through 3-5 encounters before having a chance to rest, or indeed rebuff or heal between combats. If you are criticizing that style of play, then you are criticizing paizo's entire style of adventure design, which seems to me to be rather counterproductive, since it is their RPG system, designed to be used with their adventure paths, that we are discussing here. And yes, we are very fast at resolving rounds of battle, most of which take 2-4 minutes in total, barring OT discussion, which of course happens sometimes. So, a 10 round encounter then lasts 20-40 minutes of real time, and considering that we start at 5pm and play until 2am most times, there is plenty of time for 5-7 such encounters in such a 9-hour session, plus plenty of role-play and strategical planning. On the other hand, we have been known to use an entire session in role-play and planning, especially when transitioning from one module to the next.
I simply have to laugh when you call our style of play ineffective, when in the time since alpha was released, we have progressed one campaign to 9th level (3 full modules), and another to 5th level (2 full modules) simultaneously. I challenge anyone to match such progression without severe DM intervention or simply skipping levels.
Finally: I have been all over these message boards, and have seen you contribute not one iota of constructive criticism or original ideas. In fact, the only time I have seen you post, you merely contradict people, insult them, belittle them and generally make a nuisance of yourself. Not just one thread has been locked due to your downright childish behavior, and I predict that the moderators of this message board are eventually going to have no choice but to ban you from them entirely. I however am not going to wait until their hand is forced. This is the absolute last time you will get any type of response from me. You are like a problem child, who beats on his little brother because he knows no better way to get his parents' attention. Well, I am not your little brother, and I am not your father, so I will leave the problem of dealing with your tantrums to someone else, as I simply do not need to give you the attention you so desperately seek. Consider yourself permanently ignored.
Healing at a Range...
1. Cleric/Wizard - Using Spectral Hand, usually heading for Mystic Theurge.
2. Pathfinder Sorcerer - Celestial Bloodline (Good aligned targets ONLY)
3. Cleric & Paladin - Pathfinder 'Channel Energy'
...and the ever popular Healing Arrows/Bolts! 1d8+1 Healing & 1d8 Damage! Woohoo! Tack on a Heavy Repeating Crossbow and you're sadistically healing entire armies!
Play fair guys. Gary's already intervened. There is no need for a sm*rfing of this thread.Pychic_Robot, you are wrong. Your games are wrong. Your being in existance is wrong. Surrender to the right way to play a game. Resistance is futile.species 817
Report to the paizomatrix for assimilation
heh ...well he used the line
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The perception is not a reality. This is a repost.
Thank you. I found that link very useful.
Respecting the OP, the druid doesn't need any buffing. If he wants to heal at range, he has options.
Plus, flavor-wise, channeling energy strikes me as really based on good vs. evil, while the druid is the master of neutral. Yeah, I know a druid can be neutral good or neutral evil, but they're not the champions of the light / darkness.
The perception is not a reality. This is a repost.Thank you. I found that link very useful.
Respecting the OP, the druid doesn't need any buffing. If he wants to heal at range, he has options.
Plus, flavor-wise, channeling energy strikes me as really based on good vs. evil, while the druid is the master of neutral. Yeah, I know a druid can be neutral good or neutral evil, but they're not the champions of the light / darkness.
With all due respect, the druid does not have options for healing at range before 6th level spells becomes available to him, if you are using strictly core rules, while the cleric gets AOE heal at range at first level. However, I really don't care much if druid is the second-best healer or anyone else, but something has to be done to allow more than just the cleric to be an effective in-combat healer. Whether that solution is a feat or series of feats, magic items, additional low-level, single-target ranged healing spells, class features for druid, bard and/or ranger, or whatever, I don't care, as long as a solution using CORE RULES is found. I am even leaning away from finding a solution in the druid's abilities, just because that leaves our evil adversaries behind, and doesn't evil deserve love too?
Summon Nature's Ally IV is a 4th level spell, and you can summon a unicorn where every you want to with it.
This unicorn has it's own actions it can take, and can do some healing while acting as a meat shield, while still leaving the Druid free to summon more or do some other action.
Also if you are using Mass Cure Light Wounds you may be better served with Mass Bear's Endurance which boosts allies Con by 4 giving them (at level 11) 22 HP instead of the measly d8 + 5 of the Mass Cure Light Wounds.
Someone else has mentioned GoodBerries. Cast this a couple of times at second level and you have multi-day potions (at second level at that!) that can cure up to 8 hp a day per person using them. Eating eight berries is at most a standard action.
I just don't see the Druid lacking healing options. Yes they have to think a little more to see them, but the options are there.
(No I'm not saying you can't think, just that some people can miss things that they don't look for. I mean no insults by this, or any other post.)
Druid healing at range: toss goodberries into the mouths of your allies.
rofl! I like the way you think, Mr. Hunnicutt.
Just a quick aside, and I say this in the interest of clarifying for any posters coming late to the party.
Nobody is saying the druids don't have healing options. The original tack of the thread was addressing the fact that there are those who feel that classes beside the Cleric don't have ranged healing options at low level using the Pathfinder rules as written in the Beta, and would like the option considered for discussion.
I am duly impressed by some of the clever options presented here, but frankly, wands, unicorns (and all manner of summoned goodness/badness) feats that allow people to bend the rules of the game from supplemental products and niche prestige classes have seen their heyday at our table. I am personally familiar with almost every solution presented here, having used many of them extensively.
With all due respect and deference, these things have nothing whatsoever to do with the question at hand. Which is, succinctly put:
'Does the advent of the low level channeled heal at range as a class ability necessitate the "buffing" of other classes with a ranged healing ability?'
As you may know, I don't actually believe it does. As the saying goes YMMV. It would be great if we could stay a little more on focus because the feedback has been dynamic and I have actually been swayed more towards the view that "healing is fine" as P_R so succinctly put it way back when. I appreciate everybody's time in reading this and posting.
It's interesting that people can agree so bitterly.
Zero:
As always, you make me chuckle and think at the same time. I should be careful, sinus headache is sure to be the eventual result.
But you as well, my friend, should be careful. As the cleric in the campaign you are DM'ing, I loathe to have to throw 'healing is fine' back in your face some day, but for your own good, I'll do it. ;p
Wands and Unicorns are core.
3-5 encounters a day is fine, and don't straw man me into saying something otherwise which I did not. Fights lasting 10-50 rounds... there's something very, very wrong there if routine fights are regularly lasting more than 3 rounds much less 10, and the real fights are taking 50.
Even 4.0, the master of super low damage, super high enemy HP and lots of annoying healing surges adding another 300 to that 1.2k mob a few times combat at least finishes its routine fights in 5, and big ones in 10. So you are 2-5 times slower than that Padded Sumo fest. Yup, definitely something wrong. Or you are full of it, which also would not surprise me especially since if I recall correctly Shackled City, Age of Worms, and Savage Tide are also Paizo material. I've seen all of these. They don't come close to that.
Now you might get 10 round big combats if all the enemies use real stalling tactics (as in Mage Armor, Shield, Barkskin, Mirror Image, Displacement, Unholy Aura...) and are already pretty strong (Evil Outsiders) but through healing? Lol, no. Not even the Heal spell works as well as having a 5% chance to be hit, not counting AC.
Let the Evil not have their healing. We don't need those silly traps.
So far this has mostly been a discussion about in combat healing (and healing at range) which should be the Cleric's forte.
That said, Channel Energy is most efficient when used out of combat (especially as the end of a combat has the highest chance of multiple party members needing healing) and it thus gives a party with a Cleric "free" healing that is very effective.
I say free because there is no spell slot or gold cost to this healing vs a party that must use spell slots (Druid, Ranger, etc) or cost gold (Wands of CLW, etc) to heal up.
For example a 5th level Cleric with a 14 Cha will be able to channel 3d6 x 5 times per day. As a burst, it will heal all your party members (usually 3-4 depending on party size), so you are getting 135-180 points of free healing per day. That is the equivalent of 1/2 of a wand of CLW.
I've found that at levels 1-5 a wand of CLW will last a long time, but you start to burn through them fast at levels 6-10 and after 10th level you can burn through one after a single big fight. While 750gp at 10th level isn't much compared to total loot, it starts to add up, plus having to procure and carry all those wands is kinda ... irritating.
I'd like to have some other classes gain an out of combat healing ability which could supplement the CLW/spells of a group that does not have a Cleric in the party.
Looks like the Paladin will get that starting at 4th level.
I'd also like to see other classes gain some sort of mass out of combat heal. Bard could have a healing song, Monk could have some Ki or meditation ability to heal party damage similar to Channel Energy. The more classes that have these types of abilities the better, as healing out of combat is boring and does nothing but slow down the fun parts of adventuring. Make them take 1 minute or 5 minutes, etc so they can only be used out of combat.
Thoughts?
James Hunnicutt wrote:
Druid healing at range: toss goodberries into the mouths of your allies.Rooby-rooby Roo!
Rank rou!
<squelch!>
<b-ding!>
Hehehe, goodberries...
Now, seriously, if the posters here don't tone down the personal insult, the topic won't really go anywhere. It does not take the discussion anywhere when you say that what the other person say is bullshit, wrong, stupid, bizarre, mentaly retarded or any kind of sh!@h you guys can think.
I'm done with this discussion: I don't think this will go anywhere, but maybe, just maybe, we could keep civil.
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Bard could have a healing song,
Yes. That fits in well with the bard's buffing-themed abilities, and correlates with a bard's ability to case some cure spells.
Not a fan of the monk getting such an ability. Monks have all sorts of neat abilities, and healing the party doesn't seem consistent with the flavor of the monk.
'Does the advent of the low level channeled heal at range as a class ability necessitate the "buffing" of other classes with a ranged healing ability?'
NO.
It's interesting that people can agree so bitterly.
YES.
(I can do simple answers. :) )