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Hey folks - please check-out a new offering by Ravenlore press - Midnight in Mogheim! Because this is our first FULL product and AP, we are making it available at the low introductory price of only $9.99 (for 115 pages!) for the PDF.

Its a system-neutral mini-setting and adventure path for our World of Ark setting, but easily ports into any other settings as well (its an island). For example, in Golarion, you could place it just SW of the Land of the Linnorm Kings. Or you could just adapt the AP alone to that PF kingdom, and it would fit fine.

If you like gritty, folklore-esque flavor in a Norse-like setting, then this is for you. All future products for the World of Ark setting will have this same, dark atmosphere, and we plan a series of modular mini-settings that you can use anywhere, or they could be the basis for your own, home-brewed world! Each is self-contained, much like the old Mystara (OD&D) Gazeteers, and we plan to support every one of our products moving forward, adding more content through a series of articles, stories, and adventures.

So check us out, and let us know what you think. We want to know what gamers want - we are gamers ourselves - and appreciate any feedback you care to give. If you would rather wait for a physical copy of MaM, we should have that set-up and available within the next few days, and we appreciate your patience.

Cheers - Mark Taylor

Thanks for all the responses.

I was only asking because I had an idea for a wonderous item (for the contest), but since I've run out of time with that, it really doesn't matter anymore.

I could have kept it vague-enough, and only concentrated on some of the RW (mythological) bits, but whatever. Its over, so no big. Thanks again, everyone.

And sorry for the misspelling. {embarrassed}

EDIT: And I whole-heartedly agree with Mr. Jacobs here. When I create any game-content myself (and I am BIG on cosmology stuff), I try to do it in a way in which ALL sources are still relevant, so as to not limit someone's elses creativity. Once you define something down to the nth detail, you are basically saying, its not "this, this, or this". Thats 'subtractive design'. Leaving Tiamat and Bahamut alone allows Pathfinder players (playing ON Golarion) to use them in the traditional, D&D way, or even use something closer to the original myths. Isn't that what PF was all about? Building upon what came before, and making it all better? If you can't play with someone else's toys, then just leave them alone; no need to go and break them.

Although... I don't think it would be all that hard to create a Golarion version that doesn't override older versions (ALL of them). Gods can change their forms whenever they want, and also appear amongst different followers in different guises (aliases), so all versions can be correct at the same time. They can even appear as two (different) avatars at the same time, if they wish to.

Ah, okay. Thanks for the quick response. :)

And I suppose Bahamut as well, although I realize thats specifically a D&D creation.

I wasn't sure if they were OGL or not.

On maps of Osirion, I see Xefon-Ra, and also the 'Pyramid of Doom' - anyone know what these are?

(and don't say "the second one is a pyramid" lol)

EDIT: Oh, and The Klarwa Fountain


A Traveler/Space Opera type RPG with lots of detail, but still generic enough to run any type of campaign (SW, ST, B5, BS, etc)? BRING IT ON!

Something along the lines of Spelljammer, with absolutely no adherence to hard science and just some piss-poor 'space fantasy', then NO.

I would also definitely be interested in a near-future, post-apocalypse ruleset as well.

Do we have a one-eyed, one-horned, flying purple people eater?

MMCJawa wrote:

Revenants are somewhat similar, but tend to be focused on revenging there murder. Slashers are more generally kill happy.

Might work better as a template though

A template on some other undead, including a Revenant? It would make some sense - after avenging whatever it was that they were avenging, they decide to stick-around and apply their 'revenge' to just about everything (sickly justifying it all somehow).

Kinda like a Grudge (which would be a ghost with that template added).

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An Aboleth elder has been devising his 'master stroke' for 10,000 years. After all that careful Machiavellian planning, he begins phase 1...

The other Aboleths scream, "Frank! NO!! What are you doing?! Don't be so impatient! Jeez, you always had a hair-trigger!"


Aboleths... no one really has to worry about them... the situation changes faster then they can adapt to, and they keep having to start over. The problem with 'big brains' is that you tend to over-think EVERYTHING.

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I'd like variants on existing creatures. I've already suggested something I use in my games - variant Medusae: The winged Euryale, and the serpent-bodied (lamia-like) Sthenno.

More stuff like that. I realize a lot of things can simply be done with templates, but its always great to have art to inspire us.

Also, regular-looking animals with unexpected abilities, like a fire-breathng elephant (that uses its trunk like a flame-thrower), or an ape that can stretch its limbs, or even a carnivorous horse (or any other normally vegetarian critter). I like it when my players get shocked/surprised by something totally unexpected. You give us more dragons, well... they pretty much know whats coming.

Gancanagh wrote:

Lust is mostly a sin and angels are sinfree creatures. So I don't think a sex-based angel (most angels already look sexy BTW) is gonna happen anytime soon. :-p

Not an attack on your wish, just a thought before the entire anti-me gang starts to go berserk again.

Did god not say, "Go forth an multiply"?

And if Outsiders are unilaterally known for any one thing, its taking things to extremes. ;)

You are hitting upon a problem I have been dealing with for a very long time as an FR DM (and a GH DM before that, but not nearly as problematic).

Your players know as much, if not more, then you do about your game world.

The solution is both very simple, yet very hard to impliment - create your own world. It fixes that pronblem with your players, but then forces you to create everything whole-cloth. What we need is some sort of in-between solution, that would allow us to use published lore without being a slave to it.

Thus, a few years ago, I decided on a plan - my world wasn't the Forgotten Realms - my world was an alternate reality from that one, related to it, but NOT it. I am now on my third campaign in an 'alternate realms', and with each iteration it has grown further and further from the canon one. In fact, I have completely merged it with both Golarion and Mystara (OD&D) and call it 'The Misbegotten Realms'. It allows me to use prefab adventures from all three settings with minimal fuss, and anywhere else I may feel like borrowing from. I'm fairly good at making maps, so this was a labor of love for me, but others can still do this to a lesser degree.

When your players start to act like they know more then you, simply tell them your world is NOT Golarion - it is a very similar, but DIFFERENT world. Many things remain the same, but many details are different. If something bothers you about the published setting, CHANGE IT. Tweak the hell out of everything - I think thats what we are supposed to do anyway (at least, thats how it was in the beginning of D&D). Your players should never know whats around the next corner - it ruins the game for both them and you.

All IMHO, of curse.

Aotrscommander wrote:
Which is a rare and tragic event. I'm sorry, but absolutely nothing in any world is going to convince me that Elves and Dwarves (et al) suffer from species-wide learning difficulties.

Which reminds me of why 4e D&D halflings got 'bigger' - the guys over at WotC decided that a halfling as strong as human was absurd.

Obviously, none of them have ever had an encounter with a wolverine (or any of a thousand other creature less then half the weight & size of a human that could EASILY tear a human apart). It would help if designers had RW scientific degrees, so that these kinds of ridiculous (humanocentric) hypothesis wouldn't creep into our fantasy.

Back in the 80's there was a 10 year old girl on the show Thats Incredible, who lifted a bar with four full-sized adults on it over her head (including ex-football player Fran Tarkington). She lifted more then an Olympic weight-lifter! She was said to have some sort of weird disorder with her muscles or something (I forget now - it was a LONG time ago). But whatever - it means that someone THAT SMALL could do precisely what a halfling could do - that it was SCIENTIFICALLY possible. You cannot simply dismiss exceptions to your rules as 'rare and tragic'.

By your way of thinking, if a pig or cow would live long enough, it should be able to get a master's degree. If a creature exists that cannot learn as fast as a human can, that just means its of a different species, it isn't some form of 'retarded'*, because that is judging it by a human standard which doesn't apply.

That being said - I actually agree with you. I greatly dislike the difference in maturation rates; not because its not feasible, but because, as a DM, it raises some serious moralty issues I'd rather not deal with (an 8 year old goblin girl is fair game, but a 30 year old elf isn't? see my point?)

*sorry if anyone is offended by my choice of words, but I felt it was the best way to make my point.

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The Phooka probably doesn't have a 'true shape', or at least, one that any mortal has seen. Its a natural shape-shifter - why would it even need a natural shape? it could look like just about anything.

My first D&D encounter with a Phooka was from Tall Tales of the Wee Folk (AD&D), and I believe the main one in that tome was a rabbit normally. In that source they are spelled 'Pooka'.

However, the illustration shows it looking like a dog (Greyhound), and the text states that they can probably take any form (many of the more usual ones are listed). It also says they are related to nightmares, and enjoy alcohol, smoking, and gambling.

Sounds like that one family member that everyone avoids at the reunion.

It might be interesting to add 'Soul Reapers' into a Manga Pantheon. Not gods, but definitely part of the 'heavenly hierarchy'.

You might be able to translate Koenma (Yu Yu Hakusho) into Pharasma's love-child. :P

What, not into 'puppy love'? :P

I wonder if Baba Yaga's Hut is somehow based on Tardis technology? Maybe she's a long-lost (and corrupted) time Lord.

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Cannibal halfling pinheads... a MUST in any jungle campaign. :D

Perhaps some Shadow Over Innsmouth-type stuff along the coast (given the history with the Aboleths). Instead of victorian-era new England, you could use the local tribes (or even some corrupted Vik... err... Ulfens).

Obviously there should be some sort of 'lost colony' a'la Roanoke. That could tie-into the Cthulhuesque elements.

'Elder Evils' could make a great replacement for some Meso-american gods, and explain large scale temple sacrifices, etc.

Feathered dragons, raptors and other small (but deadly) dinos, etc. Maybe some prehistoric version of a fantasy race (like primitive, shaggy cave-centaurs with the top half of gorillas).

Perhaps more advanced versions of goblinoids, like horse-riding Orc tribes (or some fantasy/prehisitoric versions of a horse). Maybe a desert kobold Empire that keeps the vicious, primitive Waste goblins at bay. Connect Kenkus/Dire corbies to 'The Raven' - a trickster deity from that region.

Dark Elves who aren't drow. No dwarves or gnomes though, unless someone comes up with something really special for them.

We could even give the southern-most areas a Polynesian/Oceania/Aussie vibe (ostensibly due to an admixture from ancient Tian colonies there). I am picturing massive war-outriggers that cross the Ocean (helps explain the Garundi colonies from Arcadia others here have recommended). They could even have some form of magical (Greek) fire projectors to help balance them against the technologically superior Avistan ships. In fact, that area can be similar to the old (and excellent) Pirates of Darkwater cartoon - ecomancers and all.

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And the Worldwound is just like spending the holidays with my ex's family.

I'd love to see less humanish influence and vibe and give it more of a 'Mongo' vibe (lionmen, etc). We need at least one continent where humans do not dominate everyone else.

But of course, we should still have a nod to the cultures of the Americas (just don't feel the need to apply them directly to 'native humans'). Also, don't make the HUGE mistake FR did (several actually) - that the tech/magic level was so disproportionate that the 'European' (analogues) walked all over them. They should be just as strong and competent... but VERY different. In fact, their magic should confound Inner Sea Mages. Lots of primal/totemic magic, plus bonuses for proximity to geographic features (basically drawing power from the land itself).

In a nutshell: Don't over-do the derivations, and remember that this is FANTASY, and not humans-plus-other-guys. That gets old, fast.

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
I have always assumed that most of the Numerian tech & robot critters ran on Tesla-ish broadcast power and the country's borders were established roughly where the limits of transmission range from the Silver Mount (or hidden substations/boosters) tapers off. It could be that the robocritters grow stronger the closer they are to their power source.
Ross Byers wrote:
Oh, I like that. The smaller trinkets on par with magic items might be self-powered (See City of the Fallen Sky), but don't get traded too much because the rest of the wold understands magic. The truly powerful bits (and robots that would otherwise wander away) stop working when they leave the country.


Thats bloody brilliant. A+ for making me actually like Numeria now.

I'd like to see what the 'Blarney Stone Golem' would be like (that someone earlier suggested).

Zombie Ninja wrote:
Garlic bread golem

Why stop there? We could have a whole Italian-food themed bestiary...

The Man-eating Lasagna
The Dire Ziti
Ethereal canolis
The dreaded deep-seep Linguini Alfredo
Elemental garlic knots
The Calzone of Doom!
Fiedish pizza-faces

And lets not forget the gelatinous crème brulée (Okay, thats French, but Olive Garden used to sell them...)

And now for something a little more sane: How about another world-specific bestiary with ordinary animals that AREN'T from Earth. I'd love (for once) to see a fantasy world really filled with fantasy critters. This could even be combined with Flora in a 'Golarion Naturalis' type of in-game tome (with uses for herbs, animal parts, etc... to make it more useful).

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The Mana Wastes. Three kingdoms (and all that geography) tied-up around one tropey plot (two wizards go to war). It should have all been one region, instead of dividing it up like that - its pointless to have all three.

Ninja in the Rye wrote:

Worldwound kind of bugs me. I feel like it should be this major focus for every nation, but the rest of the world seems to mostly ignore it and leave it to Mendev to deal with.

Worldwound/Mendev also covers a lot of the same thematic ground as Lastwall/Belkzen, which makes it seem kind of redundant.

In my FR/Gol mash-up, I made both Mendev and Last Wall provinces within Damara - not only were they redundant, but they were way bigger then necessary.

I never really gave the World Wound much thought (because I don't use it), but I see your point: Fiends are threatening to take-over the world, and everyone is just going about their business. Not very logical, that.

Tholomyes wrote:
I just thought of another thing that bugs me; Asmodeus is supposed to be a god with legitimate following, unlike most other Evil deities, who host cults and whose religious practices are generally not accepted in civilized culture, but he still hosts the stereotypical "Devil" appearance. Even accepting a difference in cultures, I can't see this gaining much support; were I to redo the mythos, I'd maybe (at most) make the devilish guise his true form, but he takes a more human form more often, when dealing with mortals. *<snip>*


I had the same problem with FR post-Spellplague. All of a sudden, Asmodeus - who everyone knows is evil and the lord of hell - is a major god. WTF?

So I combined him with Bane. Bane is a generic alias he takes on some worlds, which helps him deflect the dislike normal folks have for his known (devilish) attributes. Thus, FR does not have Asmodeus... and yet, it always had Asmodeus. Wish they had done something like this in Golarion (instead of both companies making the same dumb mistake).

If you have proof of God, why would anyone side with the devil? I just don't get it. 60-70 years of 'good times' is worth all of eternity getting your butt poked with a pitchfork? Not me, man, not me.

I combined Kara-Tur with Tian-Xia.

You see, K-T is very well flushed-out with lots of detail... but not very interesting. Tian-Xia is very interesting, but not at all detailed. By pasting the K-T fluff into Tian-Xian, I get the best of both worlds.

There's also bits of a few other things in there, like a lot of the Rokugon fluff (since we only got a 5Rings book for OA in 3e). It also has a bit of an anime vibe, with different regions stealing bits from different shows.

The PCs haven't even thought about heading east yet, but at least I have an idea of whats over there if they ever do.

Not ignoring anything - I completely agree with what you say.

I believe many gods that we think are differenlty are rally the same being (in a different guise), and by the same token, two similar dieites with the same name from different spheres may not be the same being at all - gods are notorious for using aliases, and why bother creating a new religion when you can kill another god and take his stuff (or just find one that is already missing for some reason, but known in that sphere).

When gods can look like whatever they want, and mortals see what they expect to see, then the whole concept of 'alien' goes right out the window. A god is no longer a member of its former race - its a ball of energy that uses a manifestation when it needs to deal with mortals. At first many of them probably stick to the look they had in life, but its not necessary, and older gods may be from races that don't even exist anymore.

But I like Grey goo! :P

Its really no big deal - my setting is an amalgam of several worlds (primarily FR and Gol), so I've changed so much this doesn't really matter.

Tirisfal wrote:
This theory is still my favorite.

Thats VERY interesting... especially if we add Groetus into the mix, as another poster suggested.

Thus, Rovagug is once-again defeated (as per the biblical analogy), but that event itself ushers-in the 'end of times' that Groteus is after (So Rovagug may be one of those 'primal forces of the universe', and by destroying him, the universe begins to unravel).

So we have proof that Aroden actually DID die?

Well... there goes a bunch of my theories and a ton of my back-story...

It would have been far more useful if he were just 'presumed dead'. Putting limitations on such a major plothook is 'subtractive design', IMHO.

Ah, well... I can just choose to ignore it...

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I go with planer 'ghettos', myself.

I've been given this (and many other RPG metaphysical questions) a LOT of thought for some 35+ years, and I think just like RW, "birds of a feather flock together".

So when you die, you appear in the humanocentric portion of the afterlife. You could travel (on near-infinite planes!) to another region where other dead dwell, but you have nothing in common with them at all - they are ALIENS. Near you would be other, very similar races - ones that you may have known in life (like Elves, dwarves, etc..) - but the more different something is from what you were, the further away it would be. As I said, on a near-infinite plane, that could be billions of miles (of course, some believe souls travel at the speed of thought... but this is D&D...)

Also, only in the Prime is everything 'set in stone' (and even then, not nearly as much as people think, hence 'magic'). In the outer planes, people see what they expect to see. So if if you are traveling through a strange city on your way somewhere, the people there may seem a little 'off' to you, but not enough for you pay it much mind (since focusing on anything after you die is pretty damn hard, from what I've read). What they looked like during life has no real bearing on what you are seeing, and the same goes for them when they view YOU (some odd stranger passing through).

This would also apply to the celestials/fiends of the setting, if the dead have 'earned the right' to become one. Of course what you see when viewing an angel is an impossibly beautiful woman. A halfling would see a shorter version, and an elf one with pointy ears (and more androgynous). A dwarf would see bearded angels, etc. Now something else entirely may see some sort of green, 6-eyed, four-armed monstrosity... and think it beautiful.

We see what we expect, unless the being is powerful enough to force its own perceptions on YOU, which is what happens in the case of deities (Thus, a god can appear as its its 'default' expected appearance, or force its own perception on you, whatever that may be), which is why gods can appear as anything they want. The one caveat is that they will still find it very hard to hide some major defect you expect to see (like a missing hand, eye, etc..) - such deformities can be hidden, though, through different takes on the theme (Hence, Gruumsh can appear as a Cyclops).

As to why we don't encounter more of these 'alien' gods - its because of the 'Ghetto theory' again - most everything hangs out in areas where they are known. A deity (or whatever) loses power as it moves away from its worship-base, so they tend to stay near those that know them. A god can travel to other regions/worlds and become known, but they would start-out at the exarch/demigod level of power there, and therefor be extremely vulnerable, which is why very few gods even try to become multi-spheric powers.

Thats my story, and I'm sticking to it.

You can't handle the truth...

The truth is, there NEVER WAS an Aroden...

Just NO.

Haven't read the thread... don't need to. The title says it all.

At that point its not called swimming, its called SINKING.

I personally prefer more open, 'classless' systems, but then that wouldn't be 'D&D', would it?

The #1 thing I would change is having both feats and Prestige classes - they are redundant. With Feat trees you accomplish everything a PrC does without all the added baggage. If you want flavor-based PrCs, then simply make certain feats only accessible to certain organizations - its THAT SIMPLE. Joining organizations should NOT be something you pick out of a book, it should be a roleplay opportunity.

In response to the above post(s), Gary Gygax is quoted to having said, "The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." What that means is, RPGs are about Roleplaying, NOT rollplaying - if you wanted endless crunchy bits then play a video game.

SmiloDan wrote:

Another thing I would like is from Hackmaster. Each ability score has a percentile portion, like Str 16.23, Dex 13.11, Con 14.98, etc. etc. Each level, you roll percentile for each ability score, and it it to the percentage. This is how ability scores would increase.

So if you had Stength 13.87 at 1st level, and rolled 11 on d%, you would have 13.98 Strenth at 2nd level. At 3rd level, you might roll 45% and increase your Strength to 14.43, so your bonus would increase from +1 to +2.

The only problem I see with this system is making high level characters. Would you assume 50% every 2 levels?

I like this a lot, but would modify it with some old RQ rules regarding skills: the higher the Attribute, the harder it should be to get these incremental gains. In other words, a sliding scale. The actual increase should be class dependent, and I prefer bell-curves as well.

For Example:
Rolling the %D, you subtract TWICE your current attribute score from the roll, and if its a positive number, you get to add that to you attribute. This should only be for primary attribute scores for you main class - in the case of other attributes, you should subtract three times the attribute score from the roll. Thus, you are more likely to see gains in attributes you are actively using during play.

Since this is something that would not be guaranteed, its should not replace getting Attributes by other methods, and should also be able to be augmented somehow (like a warrior praying for a 'boon' from his gods, etc).

If anything, it would make a great optional rule.

We need dire giraffes. Maybe two-headed dire giraffes.

Giraffes scare me.

You could almost say that the Fir Bolgs were the 'offspring' of Fomorian/Tuathan relations. Not precisely true to folklore, but thematiclaly, it would work. Those two groups 'got along', and then we have the Fir Bolg appearing and raising a ruckus; "the children of ancient beings supplanting them" is a pretty tried-and-true trope.

So a(n RPG) Fir Bholg could be a half fey/Half Giant - that explains the size and the tree-hugging (someone suggested making them wood giants - that's a decent fit).

{no-one here thought the idea of the malformed Fomorians being the result of 'over-stretching' their size-change ability was a good idea?} :(

I've loved Drakes since the OD&D/Mystara days, so YEAH, more of those.

In my HB musings, I have it where everyone gets it wrong - dragons are actually the result of ancient crossbreeding of drakes and Celestial (Lung) dragons, and unnatural. The dragons will never admit that the simplistic drakes are actually their forbears (like I said, pure Homebrew for my own campaigns). The Linnorms may be the proto-versions of those, or perhaps are the 'true' evolutionary end to the drake genus.

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Ummm Jack Vance? ;)

We did get our magic system from Scify, NOT fantasy. 'Vancian Magic' (Dying Earth) was closer to psionics in its original form - you had to impress certain patterns onto your brain.

BTW Set, I'm impressed - I had forgotten about a couple of those (and I don't impress easily). I've read Empire of the East four times - its an amazing piece of literature.

But here's the thing - I want the blend to be smooth and feel organic, not be like 'spaceships and wizards!' If it doesn't make sense, then its just not good (to me). Thats why I didn't like Spelljammer - it basically took EttBP and threw it out the window (because EttBP was based on RW physics, unlike SJ, which was based on a lot of crack-smoking). If you have a universe where SJ physics work, then Earth couldn't possibly be in that universe... at least not our Earth. The idea that the USS Enterprise could run into a Spanish Galleon sailing through space is just ridiculous. Fantasy (and especially scify) should build upon RW physics, and add layers, not completely disregard it.

In other words, if you are going to do it at all, do it RIGHT. At least Paizo has a good running record in that dept.

Giants that came from the First World would work, but give them the old Firbolg ability of size change (and I believe at least one gnome and one dwarf sub-type had that as well). Fey should also be able to change size somewhat (their forms should be mutable - I have yet to really look at what PF has done with them).

Thus, if Fey can 'bulk up', and Fomorians can get smaller (although why would they want to?), an illustration of them being the same size works just fine.

Personally, I think anything from the First World/ with a Fey heritage should be able to change size, but whatever. Its just as easy to say that all fey started-out very tall (and folklore backs this up), and then 'dwindled' (another common trope in Fairy lore), so the Fey themselves were almost a very small class of giant.

When a creature out of myth has conflicting descriptions, just give them an ability that explains it. For example, maybe the deformed (1e/2e/3e) take on Fomorians is due to them changing size TOO much - that would be the drawback of them 'balloning up' - there is always a chance that parts of them will get malformed. So you can have fairly normal looking ones, and then have the butt-ugly kind as part of that same group.

And a correction - I said the Fey warred with the Fomorians, but IIRC, it was the Firbolg who warred with the Fomorians, and the Firbolg themselves were later displaced by the migrating Fey (in legend). So if you do Fomorians, you got to do Firbolgs as well. EDIT: I just looked this up on Wikipedia, and it disagrees with this account - an account I read in a book on Irish legends... oh well.

As for Formians... I never liked them. If it were me, I'd try to tie them to Myrmidons somehow. Maybe have a specific sub-group (because insects are always divided in 'castes') that has a shape-change ability that allows them to mimic 'normal folk'. Then again, I may have liked the movie Mimic more then I thought.

Razimiran Priest wrote:

I for one find this blasphemy outrageous...

we all know of our lord Razmir's Omnipotence...

In 4661 AR our lord Razmir saved us from the Chaos. Gained his Divinity.. and used his divine power to turn the city of Melcat to ash overnight...

Wasn't the city named Aerduin, and the duchy named Melcat? If the entire Duchy was turned to ash, I would think there wouldn't be a Razmiran.

On another note, I really love this lore, and have added it to my multi-setting mash-up, but I have yet to figure-out any specific adventures to set there (its in an area with the Red Curse, which Razmir is greatly interested in). I may have it where agents of his are kidnapping children from other places (to do all sort of unholy experiments on).

Or he could just be collecting their souls...

Set wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:

I'd love to see Balor of the Evil Eye, who's actually a fomorian and not a demon.

The confusion might be fixed with an alternate spelling of his name though, like Balar.

Eh, Balor's just a name. The official rank is 'Type VI Demon.' :)

The other five Type VI's were named Alzoll, Errtu, Ndulu, Ter-Soth and Wendonai. (Errtu was the only one I remembered without looking it up, 'though, 'cause he's the one we fought, back in the day.)

Taking into account D&D lore, up to and including 4th edition, it tuns out the 'Demon' and 'Devil' are just affiliations (and usually also tell us where they live), but Tanar'ri and Baatezu are actual races of planer creatures. There are several examples of non-Tanar'ri/Baatezu demons & devils. The most famous example would be Graz'zt, who was born a devil, and became a demon. IIRC, he is now back to being a devil (maybe - my knowledge of 4e lore is pretty sparse). Personally, I wouldn't even say he was a Batezu - I think he's a relative of Lolth's (but thats just my homebrew musings - he's got a bit of a 'drow thing' going on there).

So 'devil' & 'demon' are almost like job descriptions (or belonging to a club), and has nothing at all to do with race. Going with that, then 'Balor of the Evil Eye' easily becomes a Fomorian who became a demon after death (or ascension, depending upon how you look at it). If a dark elf could do it (Araushnee/Lolth), then why not a Fomorian? (and there may even be an interesting story in there as well, considering Arausnee was technically a Fey, and Balor a Fomorian - two races that presumably warred on each other).

So in other words, if powerful Good people can become angels (Celestials) after death, then it should be just as common for powerful Evil people to become fiends. IIRC, the 1e rules may have even addressed that (I recall fiends being able to 'evolve' into higher fiend forms over time, and they all started-out as 'damned souls').

Hey, I think I just figured-out Pokémon are fiends. 0_o

Not sure if I'd allow even E1... maybe after about 20 years of RW game play I'd let my players advance that far. 1st level is just so... epic.

I mean, c'mon... how many of us can get hit by a sword over and over again? I say everyone should start out a zero-level commoner and have to work (most of their lives) toward level one.

A great breakfast sandwich... I am sitting here hungry as hell. :P

Paladin ex-beserker, maybe? Given his heritage (raised by Fey apparently), he went from 'savage to civilized'. That would give you an excuse to 'break the rules' and allow him to go beserk on very rare occasions. After his fall, then he could go back to being a beserker and lose his paladin abilities.

I once read a novel about Percival in which Lance was a total D-bag, and I think the author stayed fairly true to the original stories. I can't remember the name of the book though (that twas back in HS, when dinosaurs still roamed the earth) - it may have just been 'Percival' (and on that note, the internet becomes worthless).

I read Mists of Avalon, and although I loved the book (great interpretation!), I wasn't too fond of how the Arthur/Guinevere/Lancelot stuff was handled... just ICKY.

My thoughts are sort-of in line with how Undermountain was done, but with a Paizo flare...

Boxes, sadly, are a thing of the past, because they are cost-prohibitive and therefor won't garner the numbers necessary for such a product (and I do so love my boxes, alas...) For speciality products, maybe, but its not really a 'Paizo thing' IMO. So instead, make it an AP....

One that individual 'dungeons' can be attached onto, as time goes on (the way Undermountain had a few one-shot 'lost levels').

Eventually - IF this becomes a popular line - they can do an 'anniversary edition' box with all the side-modules added into the main AP.

Thats what I would do... but I don't own a game company...


In other words, I use everything in Golarion, but my campaign isn't set on Golarion (its set on an Amalgam planet that started-out as FR and just kept morphing).

There is nothing in Gol/PF that I didn't like so much I completely ignored it (except for maybe the Worldwound), but I like my arrangement better. I even just added the Razor Coast directly across from The Shackles.

The Pathfinder Society (which I call the Wayfarer' Guild) is my Illuminati-like organization. You don't think they are collecting all that information, treasure, and artifacts just for the hell of it, do you?

I use the Golarion goblins, but I also have two very different breeds of goblin (this part lifted from the Iron Kingdoms setting); there is the lunatic PF Goblins (Bogrin), and the more beneficial Boggers, with their uncanny mekanical aptitude. The Boggers are the furtive beings that keep a city running like clockwork, unseen yet vital (they mostly dwell down beneath the city streets in warrens).

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magnuskn wrote:
MarkusTay wrote:
Then you create a new set of rules with a new world.
That would be about the one thing which would most alienate me from ever trusting a single thing Paizo does.

And here I find that attitude really strange.

If you love what they have done so far, why would you prefer they change it all?

They WILL eventually have to do something, and I would think that moving in a new direction is preferable to destroying what has come before, and pissing everyone off with new rules and a a 're-imagined' setting for Pathfinder/Golarion.

Games are supposed to be 'finished'. You don't see people screaming for expansions to Monopoly or Risk. Why can't an RPG just be 'complete'? I am also not talking about just dropping PF/Gol altogether - just placing focus (and increased income-generation) on new projects, not re-inventing the wheel. WotC tried that with both D&D and FR, and it drove people here by the thousands.

That is the choice they WILL be faced with eventually; I've been in retail, and 'market saturation' is a very real thing. You have to always be aware of 'the numbers', and have the next, new direction already in-place (before its too late). We have to decide now if we are more willing to allow them to blow Golarion up, move the timeline forward, and deal with entirely new rules, OR have something else - a choice - of another setting and rules offered by them, that would be in every way just as good and satisfying as PF has been.

How is having this choice negatively impacting YOU? Why would you quite Paizo altogether? Everyone has to play with your preferred setting and rules or you will "take your ball and go home"?

When they blow the planet up and come out with PF2.0, you and the other 10 people still here can have fun watching the tumbleweeds blowing by....

Fuzzy Lumpkin

Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:
Not missing. Vanished into mysterious mists.



Hordshyrd wrote:
MarkusTay wrote:

Cayden Cailean - I Drink Alone (George Thorogood)
I like this one, although I think "One bourbon, One scotch, One beer" Would be the better Thorogood for Caydan

Agreed - I thought of that myself, after I posted my list. Cayden Cailean is more the 'party animal' type then the 'lonely alcoholic' type.

Running with the Devil (Van Halen) could work for Asmodeus, or just about any fiend-worshipping cult.

Arazni - Magic Man (by Heart)

Abadar - Money (Pink Floyd)

Calistria - One way, or another (by Blondie)

Groetus - Eve of Destruction (Barry MacGuire)

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Then you create a new set of rules with a new world.

Its the only way to avoid the obvious problems of continuity, bloat, "maximum saturation" (a marketing term), and fanboi nerdrage at changes.

Say the setting and rules are 'done', and then just walk away... its that simple. You don't move the time-frame forward with an WSE (world-shaking event), because that alienates the existing fanbase more then anything else.

This is coming, BTW, from a very disheartened/disgruntled FR fan, who hasn't made a single 4e purchase (aside from one novel) since they nuked the setting I love.

Do a 'Mutants & Mentats' rulebook, and then give us an Omega World (Gamma World) to play it in. Or something Steampunk (real steampunk - not this "there are guns over there... if you want them to be" crap), or Gothic Horror, or pure scify, etc, etc... something completely different, both in rules and setting. That could work, but re-doing the current rules or setting - especially any time soon (as in the next five years) - is just commercial suicide, IMHO. You may as well just tell your fans to go elsewhere, because they will... just look around here.

Iomedae - Stairway to Heaven (Led Zeppelin)

Pharasma - Dust in the Wind (Kansas)

Razmiran - Sounds of Silence (Simon & Garfunkel)

Cayden Cailean - I Drink Alone (George Thorogood)

Aroden - Nowhere Man (The Beatles)

I'm really lovin' on the idea that they had constant cloud cover... Azlant would have been a dreary place (like London, lol).

Perhaps they had something akin to the Eye of Abendego going on all the time, but on a much lesser scale. I could definitely see the Aboleths doing something like that (they would feel more comfortable in the perpetually damp atmosphere). That could explain the Azlanti pale complexions, and pissed-off facial expressions (having constantly wet socks will really ruin someone's attitude).

Orcs breed with whatever can't run away fast enough...

either that, or they eat it.

Consider this: The stereotypical wizard is pale, because he is a introverted bookworm who spends all his time studying and experimenting and never sees the light of day. In nearly every setting, its the mages that are getting around the most, even traveling to other worlds.

Now lets compare this with some RW facts - in the Victorian (and medieval) era, pale skin was considered very attractive - so much so, people actually powdered their skin to appear much lighter (and ghoulish, IMO). When we see medieval art, its usually of royalty/nobility (or wealthy merchants when they started to appear), and of course, they would all have the lovely pale skin tones (perhaps even further exaggerated by the artist). This gives us the misconception that medieval European peoples were very light-skinned, but the truth is, the average peasant or whatever probably spent all of their daylight hours outside, toiling heavily in the sun. They probably had rugged, well-tanned (and heavily aged) skin, but we just never see them pictured that way. I call this 'the Jesus phenomena' (because he is THE prime example of of someone completely misrepresented in art).

Also, compare this to Egyptians, who rarely had real beards, but are always depicted with them in art (the actually wore false ones... weird, I know). Once again, we become victims of our own false preconceptions do to the limited amount of physical representations we get to view.

So, my point is, the Azlanti we see depicted are probably how the current peoples of the Inner sea region imagine them to be, due to their very limited recollections of them, and whatever few they may have come into contact with very early on (I can't imagine Azlanti ambassadors/plantation owners/etc looking like 'common drudges' - they would be well-perfumed and perhaps powdered representatives of what would have been considered 'majestic Azlanti'). Other folks never get to see the down-trodden side of their society - the people with the leathery skin and bent backs.

So we are seeing the 'ideal', not the unwashed masses.

I'm more of a 'bits & pieces' kind of guy; I like (or even love) certain aspects of some settings, and dislike (or even loathe) certain other aspects of those same settings.

Thats why I take what I like, mash it all up, and do my own thing. My current world is a perfect (IMHO) blend of FR and Gol... with some heavy Mystara influences thrown in (and sprinklings from several other settings as well).

You see, we have super power... something no official designer can do. We can steal whatever the hell we like for our home campaigns. Only they have to 'follow the rules'. That means we can take the 'kewlest stuff eva' and slap it into our games.. they can't do that with other folks IPs. Potentially, we can each have a setting far superior then anything any company can provide, simply because we have a much larger pool to draw from.

If someone accuses me of something derivative, I just say, "damn right it is!"

As an amateur fantasy cartographer, I find the idea of Earthsea-as-Azlant utterly brilliant.

I personally prefer Eberron's Xendrik over Nyambe: the latter is definitely more an Africa/South America derivation (and thus probably more 'realistic'), but Xendrik is just chock full of fantasy goodness (and blends well with nearly every fantasy world).

Making the Azlant 'black' is a bit extreme - my thoughts are for something more neutral, like the race from Pirates of Darkwater (one of my all-time favorite cartoons!). The people had dark (olive) skin tones, but also had light hair, almost elven (half-elven?) eyes, etc - in fact, the guy in the setting guide looks like he could fit right into that world (but he needs a tan... must be a mage...)

Come to think of it, Pirates of Darwater would also make an excellent fit in the Azlant region (Darwater and all!)

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