What about Golarion bugs you?


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Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Mikaze wrote:

Unfortunately, while later writers ditched the worst elements that stuck out, a lot of the baggage still hangs around. How often do we still see examples of "mongrel" and "degenerate" races/ethnicities turn up in that same vein even now?

Yes, I cringe quite a bit at how often references to blood purity pop up in the Azlanti write up coupled with "pureblooded" Azlanti humans getting a +2 to all stats rather than just one like the other human ethnicities.

I don't look at this as everyone else being degenerate. I look at this as Azlanti being Aboleth experiments. They might be 'better', but they're also freaks. (What this implies for Aroden, is a good question.)

Shadow Lodge

KtA wrote:

Some of the empyreal lords that represent concepts or archetypes that really don't strike me as Good enough to have an empyreal lord representing them. IMO, the standards for an empyreal lord should actually be higher than for a Good deity; even if they were mortal once, they've gone through a really long process of transformation so that their mortal failings were gone ages before.

I kind of felt the same way, honestly. A lot of them come off, at best clearly in the neutral territory, or at least really lacking what makes them Good. Especially a lot of the newly presented ones. They almost kind of come off as a sort of Fey court more than the hosts of heaven, and sort of all over the alignment spectrum.

I should note tat I don't believe any of them where ever mortal, unlike the gods. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they are all angelic or part deity from the get go.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Drakli wrote:
I hear how real world bases break immersion and don't make sense, but I see a lot of D20 fantasy as being a close real world analogue, except that it's a real world analogue of a very localized area. Like... a super-idealized England/Spain/France area with the conventions of a Renn/Medieval festival, occasionally with a vaguely Norse nation somewhere on the borderlands because viking raiders are awesome.

But that's not a close real world analogue; that's three nations and the conventions of a Renn festival hardly correspond to that of any of them at any specific time. Galt corresponds to a very specific decade in French history. If you look at Tien, it's not some super-idealized east Asia area; there are close copies of Vietnam, immediately post-Maoist China, etc. It makes the pieces stand out more and feel less as an organic whole.

(Golarion is not the only place this is problematic, as other D&D settings suffer from this to some extent. A Traveller book called "101 Religions" also very much frustrated me for having Judaism with the serial numbers filed off, Judaism with the serial numbers filed off, Judaism with the serial numbers filed off (yes, three times), Speakers for the Dead (no filing done), worshipers of Levis Repsley.)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
KtA wrote:

Some of the empyreal lords that represent concepts or archetypes that really don't strike me as Good enough to have an empyreal lord representing them. IMO, the standards for an empyreal lord should actually be higher than for a Good deity; even if they were mortal once, they've gone through a really long process of transformation so that their mortal failings were gone ages before.

I kind of felt the same way, honestly. A lot of them come off, at best clearly in the neutral territory, or at least really lacking what makes them Good.

Totally agreeing here. Ragathiel, Videlis, Dammerich and other members of the KillPsychoClub should be at most Neutral.

Silver Crusade

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Gorbacz wrote:
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
KtA wrote:

Some of the empyreal lords that represent concepts or archetypes that really don't strike me as Good enough to have an empyreal lord representing them. IMO, the standards for an empyreal lord should actually be higher than for a Good deity; even if they were mortal once, they've gone through a really long process of transformation so that their mortal failings were gone ages before.

I kind of felt the same way, honestly. A lot of them come off, at best clearly in the neutral territory, or at least really lacking what makes them Good.
Totally agreeing here. Ragathiel, Videlis, Dammerich and other members of the KillPsychoClub should be at most Neutral.

Of those three, Ragathiel is the only one that's problematic. Dammerich is the opposite of Killcrazypsycho(and honestly, using his obedience instead fixes Ragathiel's issues), and Vildeis is...well...yeesh. Scary as hell, but not killhappy.

Honestly, Torag's a hell of a lot more questionable than those two.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, Videlis is less kill, more psycho. Still, morbid insanity and good don't mix in my books.

Dammerich exists because if you want to sell heavenly lords of prositutes and transgender you gotta balance that with saying "capital punishment is Good" so that Texans don't come to burn your company down.


Lord Fyre wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:

Lovecraft, Lovecraft, Lovecraft.

"Tentacles, all hope is lost!" is bad enough, but the man himself was an extremely racist, homophobic bastard on top of it.

I hate to ask this, but was H.P.Lovecraft "racist" or "homophobic" by the standards of his time?

He actually wrote a story in which finding out a woman was black was written with the same horror and gravitas as "Spawn of Dagon" (indeed, that was the whole symbolism).

He was a little inconsistent about it, though. He often made Anti-semetic remarks in front of his Jewish wife.

And honestly, it's kind of an oversimplification to just call him racist. I would say look the man up and read for yourself.


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Gorbacz wrote:

Well, Videlis is less kill, more psycho. Still, morbid insanity and good don't mix in my books.

Dammerich exists because if you want to sell heavenly lords of prositutes and transgender you gotta balance that with saying "capital punishment is Good" so that Texans don't come to burn your company down.

Although again, unlike in the real world where alignment doesn't exist, evil is a real force that can manifest in people. It' not like Dammerich or Ragathiel are smiting jaywalkers.

and this is coming from someone who is absolutely against the death penalty.


MMCJawa wrote:


Although again, unlike in the real world where alignment doesn't exist, evil is a real force that can manifest in people. It' not like Dammerich or Ragathiel are smiting jaywalkers.

The paladin of Ragathiel that I want to play will basically be Jules Winnfield and I will be trying to smite jaywalkers while quoting religious doctrine.


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{brandishes +1 mithral comb of nit-picking} I like, even love, much of the campaign setting (guns, Numeria, oodles of gods, analogs of Earth cultures/nations)... but that's another thread topic. So, in no particular order:

  • Non-drow elves have skintones no darker than tan. Also, the oversized ears in the art.
  • Still clinging too much to "certain humanoid races and all undead are always evil" even if it is lower-case "e" evil.
  • Not bumping kobolds up mechanically to goblin-level.
  • Psionics/"psychic magic" mostly relegated to one yet-undocumented-possibly-never-documented region (Vudra)
  • Not enough use of proteans (and other neutral beings). Way too much reliance on demons and devils.
  • Too much reliance on Varisia-located adventures and APs, not enough exploring/documenting the rest of Golarion.
  • Too human-centric, not enough countries/city states built/run by the other core races.
  • Not ditching the late/slow maturation rates of elves, gnomes, and dwarves.
  • The Dervish Dance feat=scimitars only, nothing equivalent for other light/finessable weapons/styles
  • Not enough mention of little details like trade imports/exports by region/citystate, regional cuisine, fauna/flora, laws for adventuring companies, etc.

MMCJawa wrote:
I would expect that in reality, we would see Numerian tech all over...even if you could produce/replicate it, that stuff would be valuable enough that there would be a thriving black market.

I have always assumed that most of the Numerian tech & robot critters ran on Tesla-ish broadcast power and the country's borders were established roughly where the limits of transmission range from the Silver Mount (or hidden substations/boosters) tapers off. It could be that the robocritters grow stronger the closer they are to their power source.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:


  • Not ditching the late/slow maturation rates of elves, gnomes, and dwarves.

I like to think of it not as they're physically immature for 100 years and more that their society allows for an extended adolescence in keeping with their lifespan. In keeping with the idea that in some human societies, you're an adult at puberty, while in others we have 22-year olds who haven't figured out how to do their own laundry yet. At 90-year old elf who is still considered a minor has just been a teenager for 80 years.

This means I ignore the 'class dice' for age. No reason the actual schooling part of a level 1 wizard would take longer for an elf. Though school overall might be longer, but that means higher level when they 'graduate'. Similarly, I use it to explain why elves and dwarves are considered such badasses: a 200-year old dwarf veteran is going to know more about war and fighting than a 35-year old human veteran does. Likewise, an elvish mage at 400 is going to know more about magic than a 70 year old human wizard. (Adventurers are exempt from this: An XP based system means you learn faster from the school of hard knocks than sitting in a university somewhere.)

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
I have always assumed that most of the Numerian tech & robot critters ran on Tesla-ish broadcast power and the country's borders were established roughly where the limits of transmission range from the Silver Mount (or hidden substations/boosters) tapers off. It could be that the robocritters grow stronger the closer they are to their power source.

Oh, I like that. The smaller trinkets on par with magic items might be self-powered (See City of the Fallen Sky), but don't get traded too much because the rest of the wold understands magic. The truly powerful bits (and robots that would otherwise wander away) stop working when they leave the country.


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After seeing the creativity Paizo did with revising Goblins, I'm kind of disappointed that orcs and kobolds are still pretty much the same as their other campaign setting counterparts.

Also, not enough Goblin-themed products.


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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
[list]
  • Non-drow elves have skintones no darker than tan. Also, the oversized ears in the art.
  • As I recall there are tribes of mwangi elves who have the the same range of skin tones as their human mwangi counterparts. You run into one in second darkness.

    Silver Crusade

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    MMCJawa wrote:
    Gorbacz wrote:

    Well, Videlis is less kill, more psycho. Still, morbid insanity and good don't mix in my books.

    Dammerich exists because if you want to sell heavenly lords of prositutes and transgender you gotta balance that with saying "capital punishment is Good" so that Texans don't come to burn your company down.

    Although again, unlike in the real world where alignment doesn't exist, evil is a real force that can manifest in people. It' not like Dammerich or Ragathiel are smiting jaywalkers.

    and this is coming from someone who is absolutely against the death penalty.

    For me, the executions that Demmerich has to perform would fall under neutral, but it's the why and how of it that raises him to good. He's the one that has to do the grim work, but does it without being the sociopathic fake-good you see so often when someone tries to play edgy good guys. Like Vildeis, he's denying himself a lot of happiness that so many of his kin get to enjoy in order to preserve their innocence.(I imagine Vildeis' self-imposed martyrdom does something similar in order to allow folks like Lymnieris and his flock to actually enjoy paradise rather than be crushed by constant thoughts of all the misery happening elsewhere in the multiverse; she takes it all on constantly so that they don't have to, and it lets them brighten the multiverse that much more in turn)

    Vildeis(good God, Vildeis) and Dammerich are both difficult figures in their own ways, but I can definitely see them as Good even as I'd disagree(or would want to disagree) with their M.O. That's the sort of values dissonance amongst Team Good that actually does make for good RP-fuel. :)

    Like MMCJawa, I'm also against the death penalty, though I'll freely admit there have been individuals that have tested that belief. Dammerich brings absolute certainty into that equation, and it bears noting just what kind of individuals Dammerich would be called upon to execute.

    and for God's sake, someone just hug Vildeis already ;_;

    Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

    {brandishes +1 mithral comb of nit-picking} I like, even love, much of the campaign setting (guns, Numeria, oodles of gods, analogs of Earth cultures/nations)... but that's another thread topic. So, in no particular order:

    • Non-drow elves have skintones no darker than tan. Also, the oversized ears in the art.
    • Still clinging too much to "certain humanoid races and all undead are always evil" even if it is lower-case "e" evil.
    • Not bumping kobolds up mechanically to goblin-level.
    • Psionics/"psychic magic" mostly relegated to one yet-undocumented-possibly-never-documented region (Vudra)
    • Not enough use of proteans (and other neutral beings). Way too much reliance on demons and devils.
    • Too much reliance on Varisia-located adventures and APs, not enough exploring/documenting the rest of Golarion.
    • Too human-centric, not enough countries/city states built/run by the other core races.
    • Not ditching the late/slow maturation rates of elves, gnomes, and dwarves.
    • The Dervish Dance feat=scimitars only, nothing equivalent for other light/finessable weapons/styles
    • Not enough mention of little details like trade imports/exports by region/citystate, regional cuisine, fauna/flora, laws for adventuring companies, etc.

    I generally agree with a lot of this, but you can have my long elf ears when you pull them out of my cold dead hands. :)

    Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
    MMCJawa wrote:
    I would expect that in reality, we would see Numerian tech all over...even if you could produce/replicate it, that stuff would be valuable enough that there would be a thriving black market.
    I have always assumed that most of the Numerian tech & robot critters ran on Tesla-ish broadcast power and the country's borders were established roughly where the limits of transmission range from the Silver Mount (or hidden substations/boosters) tapers off. It could be that the robocritters grow stronger the closer they are to their power source.

    Whoa, nice. This really clicks.

    The NPC wrote:
    As I recall there are tribes of mwangi elves who have the the same range of skin tones as their human mwangi counterparts. You run into one in second darkness.

    I think the big issue there is that that never came through in any of the art for the Ekujae. All of them that have appeared have been pretty light-skinned. It's been a long time since one has shown up though, and Mwangi portrayals in artwork got a big boost in the last couple of years, so that might be something we could see remedied next time we're down near the Expanse.

    Dark Archive

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    Mikaze wrote:
    The NPC wrote:
    As I recall there are tribes of mwangi elves who have the the same range of skin tones as their human mwangi counterparts. You run into one in second darkness.
    I think the big issue there is that that never came through in any of the art for the Ekujae. All of them that have appeared have been pretty light-skinned. It's been a long time since one has shown up though, and Mwangi portrayals in artwork got a big boost in the last couple of years, so that might be something we could see remedied next time we're down near the Expanse.

    D&D elves have almost always been (probably totally unintentionally) consistently portrayed as lighter skinned, the more exposure to sunlight they get, and darker skinned, the more dark their surroundings. Grey elves, described as living on mountain tops and riding giant eagles, were the palest of the pale, with bright blue eyes and blonde hair. High elves, living at the same elevation as humans, were pretty much human colored. Wood elves, wild elves or grugach, living in the shadows of primeval forests, were described as darker skinned, or even, for the grugach, as 'nut-brown.' Aquatic or sea elves, shades of blue and green, like the waters around them. Dark elves or drow, growing up in the darklands or underdark, black as pitch (or very dark brown or blue, depending on the art).

    If there are elves that live in the plains region or on the sea in the Mwangi expanse, I'd prefer that they be bleached and pale, while elves who live deep in the shadowy parts of the jungle canopy and rarely see the sun, could be darker than the 'average elf.'

    Having elves who just happen to live near dark skinned humans also be dark skinned just seems lazy, and completely throws the way they've been portrayed (lighter in the sunlight, darker in the shadows) for 40 years out of synch.

    Whether or not any non-human race should have features resembling a human ethnicity (barring half-human races like half-elves or aasimar), is a completely other question.

    Dwarves, for instance, often appear more like squat Scotsmen or Scandinavians, instead of having any distinctive 'Dwarvish' cultural or appearance features (like elves long ears and black eyes). If certain white sub-cultures are already 'seeing themselves represented' in Dwarven appearances, is it more or less appropriate for non-whites to also see versions of themselves in other fantasy races? Taken to an extreme, that could be terribly insulting.

    Dark Archive

    Mikaze wrote:
    and for God's sake, someone just hug Vildeis already ;_;...

    No hugs for Vildeis... ever! :P


    Empyreal lords: it's not just overly violent Ragathiel. I wouldn't have put "ignorance" in Ghenshau's portfolio at all. There's a decent concept there, but he should be more like the empyreal lord of Trust and Common Decency, or something...

    Also why the heck is Arshea Neutral Good? She's so clearly Chaotic...

    Shadow Lodge

    KtA wrote:
    Also why the heck is Arshea Neutral Good? She's so clearly Chaotic...

    I basically just said the same thing over in the ELs thread. CN, or maybe N, but NG, or even Good seems a huge stretch.

    Sovereign Court Contributor

    What about Arshea doesn't seem Good? I'm confused.

    Shadow Lodge

    Anything really. I think the question is why is it labelled as good?

    Neither it's write-up nor it's areas of focus really have anything to do with virtue or morality. I just dont get it outside of fan service. :)

    Just my observation. But am interested in hearing what people think, or if i'm just missing something.

    Silver Crusade

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    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    DM Beckett wrote:

    Anything really. I think the question is why is it labelled as good?

    Neither it's write-up nor it's areas of focus really have anything to do with virtue or morality. I just dont get it outside of fan service. :)

    Just my observation. But am interested in hearing what people think, or if i'm just missing something.

    You're missing the fact that there exist moralities other than fundamentalist Christian, bu that's nothing new.

    Dark Archive

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    KtA wrote:
    Empyreal lords: it's not just overly violent Ragathiel. I wouldn't have put "ignorance" in Ghenshau's portfolio at all. There's a decent concept there, but he should be more like the empyreal lord of Trust and Common Decency, or something...

    My thoughts on Ghenshau, from another thread;

    Quote:

    Ghenshau intrigues me. I think the word 'ignorance' is perhaps a bit off-putting, and he might feel a bit more palatable if he focused instead on innocence, the simple logic of a child, who cuts away all the complexities of an issue to offer a simple solution.

    "Why are we talking about this? Why don't we just do X?"

    His obedience is interesting, not so much in a 'books are evil, burn them' sort of way, but because one could easily choose to destroy bits of paper that have been 'wasted' with things that are ultimately meaningless, from a long-term celestial viewpoint, like ledgers of accounts saved in some warehouse for decades, which may seem terribly important to the merchant who scribed them all those years ago, but, in the end, only drew his attention away from the truly important things in his life, such as time with his children.

    His philosophy seems very zen (by which I mean the shallower western interpretation of it, which is about as philosophical as I get). By spending less time hurrying and worrying, those who follow his teachings grow spiritually, or, perhaps more accurately, those who spend their entire lives worrying and hurrying, retard their spiritual growth, and miss the 'now,' amidst their regrets about the past, or anxiety about the future.

    He reminds me of that Thassilonian virtue of 'well-deserved rest,' that was later corrupted into sloth.

    As for Arshea, s/he's a patron of freedom and liberation, tasked with comforting the weary and freeing minds and bodies from prisons both physical and spiritual. While I could see an argument for chaotic good, the good part of it seems pretty intuitive to anyone who values ideals of freedom or liberty and doesn't regard love or sexuality as icky or scary or wicked.


    Loving acceptation, positive embrace of one's and others' true self. Seems good to me.

    Yeah, there could be neutral demigod of trans* more self-focused on inner balance and less on acceptance or even an evil one that would be ruthless and cruel and possibly hateful. It's less about the transgender and more about approach.


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    prosfilaes wrote:


    But that's not a close real world analogue; that's three nations and the conventions of a Renn festival hardly correspond to that of any of them at any specific time. Galt corresponds to a very specific decade in French history. If you look at Tien, it's not some super-idealized east Asia area; there are close copies of Vietnam, immediately post-Maoist China, etc. It makes the pieces stand out more and feel less as an organic whole.

    I find Garund does a great job of subverting this... at least right up until Osirion, which is just silly in a way. I found the Mwangi Expanse to have variety, unique ideas, etc etc.

    I think my major issue with the real world analogues is very specifically their names for the most part. Osirion is so clearly named after Osirus; you know it's Egypt before you read anything about it. Galt as a whole bothers me. Its name is essentially France, and the idea of it being a land eternally in the French Revolution is just so much of an analogue that it's tough to look away. Andoren would have been just separate enough of an idea if not for the Eagle worship and someone actually named Lady Liberty.

    That said, I love that it has so much going on. Sometimes I want to play a samurai, and I'm glad the world makes that completely conceivable. My group right now is in the Mwangi Expanse, and there's something very appealing about how different things are from the typical Western Fantasy.

    Some other things that bug me:

    - Drow have always been a thing I can't stand. They reek of a very specific aspect of D&D, I guess. I especially can't take their dark skin. Creatures in a place without sunshine shouldn't have pigment at all, really, especially when pretty much everything around them has darkvision anyway. It feels very much to me like a "dark things bad", especially when the surface elves are all beautiful and pale.
    - On that note, one thing I noticed reading a list of inspirations for Serpent's Skull is that a ton of them were by Europeans writing about Africa and sometimes India or South America. I find the idea of cultural ideals that are difficult to understand to be fascinating, and real world ancient cultures are full of that. Instead we tend to get a very European idea of "these are the bad ones; they worship evil demons and are bad. Here are the good ones, they like us and are not antagonistic to us." Honestly, so much of the Sargava and Jungle books we were given seem to focus more on the dinosaur aspect than the people aspect, and it's amazing how few mwangi faces show up in the book dedicated to them.
    - I wish a couple species of monster (Aboleth, serpentfolk) had spell-casting rather than spell-like abilities. Aboleth are meant to be such a big deal world-wise, but they're just frustratingly difficult to advance. The crunch doesn't seem to match the fluff.
    - The world never seems sure if it's a high power fantasy or a low power fantasy. There's an inconsistency to how powerful things should be, I suppose.
    - There aren't enough evil halflings and gnomes, maybe. Or dwarves. It seems like every evil "civilized" race is human or half-elf.
    - I like a lot of the Lovecraftian elements in the game, but the inclusions of Great Old Ones takes things too far for me. I've never been too fond of powers all that much beyond the Gods, I guess. And I feel the directly Cthulu Mythos names are a little too far.
    - Golarion's Solar system is built exactly like the real world Earth's. This is beyond real world analogue. Did Desna put the stars in the sky and then put them hella far away? Not a fan of having both a mythological account of the cosmos and a scientific account, especially if they're both written as if they're objectively true.
    - Last analogue to bother me: Golarion's Calendar is exactly the same as Earth's Calendar. It has fewer leap years, but otherwise is exactly the same. It even copies the worst and oddest aspects of the Earth Calendar, like the year changing mid-season, the "not all months have the same number of days", etc etc. The days of the week even sound almost exactly the same. It's hard to get someone to say Moonday instead of Monday. It's hard because it sounds absolutely silly.
    - Is 10,000 years reasonable? Maybe this is just me, but that's always seemed like way too long for things to get rolling, especially with technology seeming essentially in stasis for so long (based on Azlanti findings). Maybe this is inevitably a flaw of having an ancient magical society and also a modern one, but 10,00 years just seems like such a huge gap? Could be wrong.

    It's weird; all the things I dislike about Golarion are side effects of things I love about it (except the Calendar). When all's said and done the setting is what made me switch from D&D 3.5 and have no intention of going to any other system.


    Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
    I have always assumed that most of the Numerian tech & robot critters ran on Tesla-ish broadcast power and the country's borders were established roughly where the limits of transmission range from the Silver Mount (or hidden substations/boosters) tapers off. It could be that the robocritters grow stronger the closer they are to their power source.
    Ross Byers wrote:
    Oh, I like that. The smaller trinkets on par with magic items might be self-powered (See City of the Fallen Sky), but don't get traded too much because the rest of the wold understands magic. The truly powerful bits (and robots that would otherwise wander away) stop working when they leave the country.

    AGREE

    Thats bloody brilliant. A+ for making me actually like Numeria now.


    Shimnimnim wrote:
    Drow have always been a thing I can't stand. They reek of a very specific aspect of D&D, I guess. I especially can't take their dark skin. Creatures in a place without sunshine shouldn't have pigment at all, really, especially when pretty much everything around them has darkvision anyway. It feels very much to me like a "dark things bad", especially when the surface elves are all beautiful and pale.

    Yeah, that always bugged me too, so much so I created my homebrew drow as coming in the exact same skin pigments as the regular elves. It made it scarier for the PCs (and NPC elves) when they couldn't easily tell an elf from a drow. As of now I'd probably give the homebrew drow a mythic bump of some sort to distinguish them from regular ol' plain evil elves.


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    MarkusTay wrote:
    Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
    I have always assumed that most of the Numerian tech & robot critters ran on Tesla-ish broadcast power and the country's borders were established roughly where the limits of transmission range from the Silver Mount (or hidden substations/boosters) tapers off. It could be that the robocritters grow stronger the closer they are to their power source.
    Ross Byers wrote:
    Oh, I like that. The smaller trinkets on par with magic items might be self-powered (See City of the Fallen Sky), but don't get traded too much because the rest of the wold understands magic. The truly powerful bits (and robots that would otherwise wander away) stop working when they leave the country.

    AGREE

    Thats bloody brilliant. A+ for making me actually like Numeria now.

    I stole the idea from the alien Mellenares of Dynamo Joe and the Tesla scenes in The Prestige (Yarr, there be spoilers here).

    RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

    My problems with Golarion are fairly minimal, actually. It is, I think, by far the best campaign world I've read in a long time: it's the sort of world I will read the source books of for fun. (3.x Ravenloft was the last one to achieve that.)

    I like the Tolkien aspects (my own worlds draw strongly from it), I have no problem with the human analogues - since I use the same line of thinking for my own! - and I actively encourage the always-Evil stuff in my own worlds anyway. The world feels properly scaled (it's not all a day's march apart, and in the real world, you don't have to go far off road to reach the wilderness.) Add to that the history, the fallen empires and above all, the mysteries...

    There are really only two niggles.

    I will, as I as always have, simply laugh at and completely dismiss and ignore the slow maturation rate of Elves/Dwarves.

    The other issue - which Golarion is sadly, just one of the endless many offenders throughout fantasy and sci-fi, book, game or film - the timescale.

    No. Bad Golarion! *slaps wrist* Five thousand years is not an appropriately long time for Things Not To Have Advanced Seriously.

    I have seriously considered simply dividing all long time periods by a factor of ten, or perhaps five, save up to the last hundred years or so. Five hundred to a thousand years is a Really Long Time for technology to be static (and no, Dark Ages do not really work that way, or that long...) Events don't tend to just stop for a hundred years. While I appreiciate the idea of wanting "space" between things happening - it's not necessary. Living memory doesn't have to be that long (especially in a human-dominated world). E.g. Irrisen could just as easily be 140 or 280 years old, not 1400 and not much would have changed.

    I think this personal bugbear of mine might be thrown into starker relief for me, since Golarion is otherwise so good and well-thought out!


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    Aotrscommander wrote:


    There are really only two niggles.

    I will, as I as always have, simply laugh at and completely dismiss and ignore the slow maturation rate of Elves/Dwarves.

    The other issue - which Golarion is sadly, just one of the endless many offenders throughout fantasy and sci-fi, book, game or film - the timescale.

    No. Bad Golarion! *slaps wrist* Five thousand years is not an appropriately long time for Things Not To Have Advanced Seriously.

    I have seriously considered simply dividing all long time periods by a factor of ten, or perhaps five, save up to the last hundred years or so. Five hundred to a thousand years is a Really Long Time for technology to be static (and no, Dark Ages do not really work that way, or that long...) Events don't tend to just stop for a hundred years. While I appreiciate the idea of wanting "space" between things happening - it's not necessary. Living memory doesn't have to be that long (especially in a human-dominated world). E.g. Irrisen could just as easily be 140 or 280 years old, not 1400 and not much would have changed.

    I think this personal bugbear of mine might be thrown into starker relief for me, since Golarion is otherwise so good and well-thought out!

    On long maturation rates... a twenty year old girl died recently. Physically and mentally she was a 1 year old. She never matured. She had not grown at all since the age of 5. They are exploring the reasons of course. There are a small number of other people in the world with similar issues. A 30 year old with an physical age of 2 for example and several others exist. It's extraordinarily rare, but there it is. I read an article on it recently, I'll try and dig it up.

    As for technological stagnation your expectations are based on the historical western experience. Progress has been much slower in other cultures (although not as stretched out as a typical fantasy world). The other thing is simple; science works irl. Observation and experimentation work. If the basis of your world is not science, but something more arbitrary and hostile to experimental methods (i.e. magic) then progress might not be as swift. The very existence of a system that "cheats" on science might slow down technological progress even if science "works".

    As in all things, ymmv, but it's worth thinking about.

    *edit* I searched for 20 year old... and "toddler" popped up. There are a lot of news items on it, to whit:

    http://shine.yahoo.com/healthy-living/brooke-greenberg-20-old-8220-toddler- 8217-8221-185100345.html


    Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
    I stole the idea from the alien Mellenares of Dynamo Joe and the Tesla scenes in The Prestige (Yarr, there be spoilers here).

    +1 for Dynamo Joe.


    The NPC wrote:

    As the title says: What about Golarion bugs you?

    For me: The obvious real world expys.

    What about you guys?

    I can't put my finger on it, it just isn't for me. But after trying to homebrew a campaign setting, I'm left in awe of how rich and vast it seems to be. Just too kitchen-sinky for me I guess, but very alive.

    RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

    R_Chance wrote:
    On long maturation rates... a twenty year old girl died recently. Physically and mentally she was a 1 year old. She never matured. She had not grown at all since the age of 5. They are exploring the reasons of course. There are a small number of other people in the world with similar issues. A 30 year old with an physical age of 2 for example and several others exist. It's extraordinarily rare, but there it is. I read an article on it recently, I'll try and dig it up.

    Which is a rare and tragic event. I'm sorry, but absolutely nothing in any world is going to convince me that Elves and Dwarves (et al) suffer from species-wide learning difficulties.

    R_Chance wrote:

    As for technological stagnation your expectations are based on the historical western experience. Progress has been much slower in other cultures (although not as stretched out as a typical fantasy world). The other thing is simple; science works irl. Observation and experimentation work. If the basis of your world is not science, but something more arbitrary and hostile to experimental methods (i.e. magic) then progress might not be as swift. The very existence of a system that "cheats" on science might slow down technological progress even if science "works".

    As in all things, ymmv, but it's worth thinking about.

    No, not really. Golarion's ten thousand year history from the Age of Darkness, while a great deal closer than most worlds (in places it's SO CLOSE to being right, using tens of years for things - and then had a several century gap before something else happens), is still TWICE that of Ancient Egypt to modern day.

    And given that magic essentially works like a technology replacement for a lot of things (and nothing I have read of Golarion, nor in D&D generally, makes it immune to scientific method, for that matter: indeed the fact wizards study it suggests magic is very much another science*), and a world where there are lots of things with exceptional intelligence (wizard not least among them) I find it grating to suppose they are still somehow stupider than real-world humans in innovation.

    When I designed my own current campaign world, I went and researched to a rough order of magnitude what technology came in when, globally. (Civilisation 3/4 and wikipedia proved a good basis in their real-world data, as I was looking for a rough order of magnitude.) To put it in perspective, it was only was only 10-12 thousand years ago people domesicated crops really took off (though there is evidence of some limited farming back another ten thousand years). Thassilon and Azlant were definitely NOT that primitive.

    Nor, for the matter, is it just the technology, and the are NO periods in history where Nothing Happens for centuries. (And even the Inner Sea region alone is big enough for this not to happen.)

    The Dark Ages really weren't as bad as popular belief is, either, nor as backward.

    Golarion, I will grant, is FAAAR and away better than most game worlds of indeed fantasy worlds: in places, it is bang on with it's timescale for some events. But it succumbs to the "sci-fi authors has no sense of scale" when centuries or millenia come in, using centuries when decades is enough, millenia when centuries would work.

    Golarion ALSO has some buffer because it's history isn't always very clear (i.e. by the admission of it's own in-universe scholars), which gets it lots of bonus points for versimilitude, so to some extent, you could even write off those gaps/long time periods as being academic errors. (Even real-world history is not always clear on that.)

    It's a very-well thought out world with a near-perfect balance between the grounding in reality and the fantastic to build up from it (to make the fantastic more fantastic).

    It's close enough I'm nearly doing what my Grandad's flight instructor from flight navaigator school (he was, ironically, a Pathfinder during WW2...) when he gave Grandad a half-serious remonstration for getting only 99% on his test ("you could have put the extra effort in and got the last mark!")

    *As an engineer, I simply do not believe anything is "immune to the fundemental laws of the universe", if it can't be explained, it just means you haven't found the right answer yet, not that there is no answer.


    Aotrscommander wrote:
    R_Chance wrote:
    On long maturation rates... a twenty year old girl died recently. Physically and mentally she was a 1 year old. She never matured. She had not grown at all since the age of 5. They are exploring the reasons of course. There are a small number of other people in the world with similar issues. A 30 year old with an physical age of 2 for example and several others exist. It's extraordinarily rare, but there it is. I read an article on it recently, I'll try and dig it up.

    Which is a rare and tragic event. I'm sorry, but absolutely nothing in any world is going to convince me that Elves and Dwarves (et al) suffer from species-wide learning difficulties.

    R_Chance wrote:

    As for technological stagnation your expectations are based on the historical western experience. Progress has been much slower in other cultures (although not as stretched out as a typical fantasy world). The other thing is simple; science works irl. Observation and experimentation work. If the basis of your world is not science, but something more arbitrary and hostile to experimental methods (i.e. magic) then progress might not be as swift. The very existence of a system that "cheats" on science might slow down technological progress even if science "works".

    As in all things, ymmv, but it's worth thinking about.

    No, not really. Golarion's ten thousand year history from the Age of Darkness, while a great deal closer than most worlds (in places it's SO CLOSE to being right, using tens of years for things - and then had a several century gap before something else happens), is still TWICE that of Ancient Egypt to modern day.

    And given that magic essentially works like a technology replacement for a lot of things (and nothing I have read of Golarion, nor in D&D generally, makes it immune to scientific method, for that matter: indeed the fact wizards study it suggests magic is very much another science*), and a world where there are lots of things with exceptional intelligence (wizard not...

    Long post and an interesting one. I'm off to a football game. I'll be back, with a reply, later :)


    "What about Galarian bugs me" ????

    Absolutely nothing.

    After years of no interest in settings other than Dragonlance, which was (I thought) the last setting I would have interest in.....paizo has re-stoked mu interest in not just gaming mechanics....but a setting I truly find fascinating.

    RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

    R_Chance wrote:
    Long post and an interesting one. I'm off to a football game. I'll be back, with a reply, later :)

    Further illustaive point: bronze working is only about seven thousand years old (and it's common use for weapons is more like four thousand): iron working is about six thousand (and again, heavy usage in warfare is about three thousand).

    Steel, which most fantasy, especially D&D, equates incorrectly to iron, was a much later invention. Though some ancient cultures used steel created through bloomeries or by ore that had already got imperfections in antiquity, and more around 2500-2000 years ago, steel didn't become commonly available until the mid 1800s. So, yes, there probably should be steel around, but it ought not really be the material that everything is made out of.

    (I work on the basis in my own games that most things should be iron, but masterwork and magic weapons could be steel, which seems reasonable.)

    Bear in mind, the preceeding figures are subject to historical inaccuracy, some regional variation and new discoveries - the real world is often just as unclear to its shcolars as Golarion's is to its! And of course some distortion is expected and desirable when applied a fantasy world. But they are roughly ball-park figures, which is all really what we're interested in.

    (What prompted this was more the fact that I'm reading Lost Kingdowms of Golarion at the moment, and skulldesked when I read something that talked about bronze weaponry in the Ages before Age (Ghol-Gan) - points for that - and then went on to talk about steel, leaving the intermediate iron out completely...)

    RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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    Keep in mind one other thing: the Age of Darkness basically slammed the entire world back to barbarism, resulted in almost the complete loss of arcane magic, subjugation by the orcs, mass superstition, etc.

    And there are a lot of entities which would like to have kept it that way!

    We don't have to put up with that kind of counter-advancing force in the real world. Gunpowder has been known for generations, and yet despite all those fantastically intelligent people, still isn't widely used. Rovagug spits up spawn that eat ENTIRE NATIONS. Tar-Baphon comes out and basically subjugates half a continent with his undead. The Runelords controlled giants and basically consolidated knowledge and power to themselves and their immediate followers, and drove everyone else basically into serfdom, and kept it that way! Because it was to their advantage to do so!...and now you have a wide open gate to the Abyss up in the north, and the demons are on the move!...

    In short, there are active forces of stagnation and corruption at work in Golarion that we don't have to put up with here. Geniuses and inventors are targeted by other forces to be resisted or outright eliminated. Plans of evil outsiders cross millennia, and unleash devastation when they come to fruition. When such things, as well as aberrants, fey, shapechangers, undead, and the like are infiltrating your society and hamstringing your attempts to improve your standing, it's no wonder at all why Golarion hasn't advanced further then it has. Indeed, it's probably only due to the counter-efforts of the Good powers out there that Golarion hasn't backslid into savagery once again under all the hostile forces coming at them from all directions.

    ==Aelryinth

    RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

    Aelryinth wrote:

    Keep in mind one other thing: the Age of Darkness basically slammed the entire world back to barbarism, resulted in almost the complete loss of arcane magic, subjugation by the orcs, mass superstition, etc.

    And there are a lot of entities which would like to have kept it that way!

    We don't have to put up with that kind of counter-advancing force in the real world. Gunpowder has been known for generations, and yet despite all those fantastically intelligent people, still isn't widely used. Rovagug spits up spawn that eat ENTIRE NATIONS. Tar-Baphon comes out and basically subjugates half a continent with his undead. The Runelords controlled giants and basically consolidated knowledge and power to themselves and their immediate followers, and drove everyone else basically into serfdom, and kept it that way! Because it was to their advantage to do so!...and now you have a wide open gate to the Abyss up in the north, and the demons are on the move!...

    In short, there are active forces of stagnation and corruption at work in Golarion that we don't have to put up with here. Geniuses and inventors are targeted by other forces to be resisted or outright eliminated. Plans of evil outsiders cross millennia, and unleash devastation when they come to fruition. When such things, as well as aberrants, fey, shapechangers, undead, and the like are infiltrating your society and hamstringing your attempts to improve your standing, it's no wonder at all why Golarion hasn't advanced further then it has. Indeed, it's probably only due to the counter-efforts of the Good powers out there that Golarion hasn't backslid into savagery once again under all the hostile forces coming at them from all directions.

    ==Aelryinth

    The trouble is: I just don't buy that as anything but an excuse.

    It's a just rationalisation why everything is stagnant at the "roughly medieval level." You can rationalise almost anything, but that doesn't necessarily make it credible. And that just doesn't, to me.

    ESPECIALLY in an RPG setting, which is pretty much by definition in this case, SPECIFICALLY set-up for small bands of 4-8 hideously beweaponed murderous hobbos to go and absolutely ruin all the evil entity's collective s...stuff and Save The World.

    It's exactly the same kind of lack of deep thinking/research that every other campaign world and most fantasy novels do (and the fact that everbody does it doesn't give it an excuse). It's particularly noticable in Golarion, as I say, to me because everything else - and indeed half of the timelines - is so well-designed and thought out.

    (For cryin' out loud, my PCs went into the glassworks in Sandpoint and one of the players was correctly guessing the functions of all the rooms just based on the logical layout! How many other modules can I say that about!?)

    For that matter, why would all the evil entities be so criminally stupid as to NOT want better weapons? I just find it incredibly hard to accept that the Aboleth, haven't, for example, after preportedly dropped the starstone to knobble civilisation, and have not, in the intervening ten thousand years where to my knowledge they haven't had their own "dark age" done what I do in Civilisation/Legendary Heroes and tech/magic up to the eyeballs and then steam roller over the entire world in technomagical water-filled grav-tanks with +5 particle beams, slowly, while laughing.

    Especially as aboleth are supposed to be several times smarter than humans!

    Like I said, the timeline thing just bugs me.

    Not enough to warrent the massive effort of re-writing it (except perhaps on a small scale), as Golarion at least tries to have some justification and is ahead of it's comtemporarties at least, but it does bug me.

    RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

    You're trying to look at it as if 4-8 superpowered hoboes can change the whole world.

    In reality, they have problems changing NATIONS. And in reality, they can't even do that until they get to the upper tiers of power, because of all the other powers that are pushing back.

    And in Civilization you don't have the anti-player coming along and wiping out your inventors, murdering your heroes in their sleep, corrupting your rulers, repeatedly and pointedly infecting your populace with plague, and plunging you into an Age of Darkness that lasts over 1000 years!

    Adventurers are not inventors! You don't make 'progress' just by butchering the minions of evil. The real evil powers are out there beyond your reach, and they just laugh at your feeble efforts and pull their strings elsewhere. All you have to do is look at Cheliax as the example of that...the 'pinnacle' of modern man, now fallen to deviltry simply by LOSING THEIR GOD.

    As for Aboleths, being intelligent does not mean being innovative. The reason they aren't using the Starstone again is that they miscalculated the effects of it, and it pounded their undersea empire into rubble, too.

    Plus, there are other forces out there looking to see if they try that trick again, and lo, when it happens, heroes are put in place to stop it before it happens again.

    Aboleths are rememberers, not advancers. The art of innovation requires a considerable amount of exchange of information, instead of jealously holding onto such stuff to maintain your grip on power. This is a known fact of business...it's better to hold onto your less efficient power and use your money to prevent others from entering into your business, then it is to advance it. Wring the last dollar out of technology before you upgrade it.

    Only in the 'modern' age has that been flipped on its head, with continuous innovation in the tech industry obsoleting stuff rapidly...something that would NOT have happened thirty years ago, let alone a hundred!

    You're a product of the modern age, used to seeing technology being invented, destroyed by upgrades and replaced. Most societies do not function that way.

    If you want a real world example of how most societies function without outside pressure, just go to Africa. They've been at the same tech level for thousands of years.

    Aboleths are intelligent, but also evil. Their power is in what they remember, not in what they invent. And they do not share knowledge easily, and especially don't invent new things...they take or steal such, and then hold it jealously close.

    I mean, come on, the elves have an outpost of their most powerful natives sitting on an island above the Azlanti ruins, and they are specifically there to prevent ANYONE, esp humans or aboleths, from getting at the knowledge of Azlanti.

    There's a flying sky city invented thousands of years ago, spinning crippled in the sky. The knowledge of how to make the bloody thing is restricted to probably one person ALIVE...and naturally they haven't bothered to share it.

    Without that sharing, that crowd-sharing, patent-ignoring dispersal of knowledge, things don't advance. And with hostile outside pressures, can go backwards very, very quickly as regards tech.

    Especially when you have magic, which is based on the person, not on the group. Magic advances when wizards get together, pool their knowledge, and start spreading magic around. Sorcerors, priests and the like have no such need for things like that...they can rise to power without the infrastructure and schooling. People see this, and they take the easier path.

    ==Aelryinth

    RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

    Again, I don't buy any of that as a genuine reason, just as the rationalisation why things haven't changed.

    And, to be brutally honest, a bit of a lazy one at that, since there is no good reason NOT to have time moving on and things changing, especially as Paizo tends to only set their advantures is the "current" time of Golarion - so you aren't too worried about having to balance ancient equipment up too much. Aside from ensuring there are plenty of ruins to explore and loot (which only needs hundreds, not thousands, of years to accomplish) I don't see any benefit, mechanical, narrative or otherwise to non-advancement.

    You could compress Golarion's ancient history by a factor of two to four, making it span a period from 10k plus to 5k or perhaps better 3000-2500 years and the flavour of the world would lose nothing, save for the numbers wouldn't be as big.

    (While I will happily agree sometimes bigger numbers are more fun, this is not one of those times.)

    You'd have to rely on the crutch of dark ages much less to keep things straight (as at that point you're talking a period of not far off Earth civilisations for up to the middle ages).

    If Paizo lost all sanity tomorrow and decided to put me in charge of Golarion's timeline tomorrow (or if I could be arsed in my own games), that's what I'd do: have someone in the Pathfinders uncover evidence in some ruins somewhere that the world is not as old as everyone thought (this has happened both ways in history after all!) and squeeze the early end of the timeline a bit more compact.

    It is a massive, massive point in Golarion's favour that the way it is presented, unlike most gaming worlds, in a lot of ways as "the people of the current time think", rather than a factual "this happened then", that you could actually do that if you were inclined enough.

    Which, as I say, despite the niggles, I am not quite.


    Aotrscommander wrote:
    Which is a rare and tragic event. I'm sorry, but absolutely nothing in any world is going to convince me that Elves and Dwarves (et al) suffer from species-wide learning difficulties.

    Which reminds me of why 4e D&D halflings got 'bigger' - the guys over at WotC decided that a halfling as strong as human was absurd.

    Obviously, none of them have ever had an encounter with a wolverine (or any of a thousand other creature less then half the weight & size of a human that could EASILY tear a human apart). It would help if designers had RW scientific degrees, so that these kinds of ridiculous (humanocentric) hypothesis wouldn't creep into our fantasy.

    Back in the 80's there was a 10 year old girl on the show Thats Incredible, who lifted a bar with four full-sized adults on it over her head (including ex-football player Fran Tarkington). She lifted more then an Olympic weight-lifter! She was said to have some sort of weird disorder with her muscles or something (I forget now - it was a LONG time ago). But whatever - it means that someone THAT SMALL could do precisely what a halfling could do - that it was SCIENTIFICALLY possible. You cannot simply dismiss exceptions to your rules as 'rare and tragic'.

    By your way of thinking, if a pig or cow would live long enough, it should be able to get a master's degree. If a creature exists that cannot learn as fast as a human can, that just means its of a different species, it isn't some form of 'retarded'*, because that is judging it by a human standard which doesn't apply.

    That being said - I actually agree with you. I greatly dislike the difference in maturation rates; not because its not feasible, but because, as a DM, it raises some serious moralty issues I'd rather not deal with (an 8 year old goblin girl is fair game, but a 30 year old elf isn't? see my point?)

    *sorry if anyone is offended by my choice of words, but I felt it was the best way to make my point.

    RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

    MarkusTay wrote:
    Which reminds me of why 4e D&D halflings got 'bigger' - the guys over at WotC decided that a halfling as strong as human was absurd.

    I would hazard that might have more to do with Peter Jackson and the LotR movies. To me, anyway, despite what Tolkien said, and what Rolemaster had always said with regard to height, when I actually looked at the p;ictures of the halflings in 3.x, they just looked wrong. PJ's LotR looked right and we unilaterally adopted their scale for all four major races (sorry gnomes, you have always been an after thought to me and my group!)


    On the Aboleth topic:

    They're also extremely patient. They're probably midway through a new long-term plot that'll come into effect in another thousand years time or so.

    I don't think they're in too much of a hurry. Their current plot could well be something that'll take a few generations to happen - especially if it's something that relies on there being nobody around that can remember far enough back to see that something strange is happening.

    Or perhaps the lack of advancement is a part of their plot. Nobody is going to notice it, apart from we who can spy on the planet's condensed history. Perhaps whatever they're working on could be defeated if the planet's technology advances far enough. I mean, if you were an Aboleth would you really want whatever they're dragging through space next to be detected by satellites and radio telescopes, and it's course changed by missiles? ;)

    Silver Crusade

    - Drow have always been a thing I can't stand. They reek of a very specific aspect of D&D, I guess. I especially can't take their dark skin. Creatures in a place without sunshine shouldn't have pigment at all, really, especially when pretty much everything around them has darkvision anyway. It feels very much to me like a "dark things bad", especially when the surface elves are all beautiful and pale.

    This has been an issue at times, but I'm actually coming up with a reason for the physical differences in my own stuff. Something that I hope is at least unique in my own spin on things. :)


    Why does the world seem to cut off east of taldor?


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    Matt Thomason wrote:

    On the Aboleth topic:

    They're also extremely patient. They're probably midway through a new long-term plot that'll come into effect in another thousand years time or so.

    I don't think they're in too much of a hurry. Their current plot could well be something that'll take a few generations to happen - especially if it's something that relies on there being nobody around that can remember far enough back to see that something strange is happening.

    Or perhaps the lack of advancement is a part of their plot. Nobody is going to notice it, apart from we who can spy on the planet's condensed history. Perhaps whatever they're working on could be defeated if the planet's technology advances far enough. I mean, if you were an Aboleth would you really want whatever they're dragging through space next to be detected by satellites and radio telescopes, and it's course changed by missiles? ;)

    I'm guessing the aboleths just eat fish and chips, cheer on the merfolk soccer/rugby teams, dream opiate-fueled piscene dreams, and "prune off" any rare sentients who threaten their goals. Humanoids, especially the humans, are quite self-destructive and can be easily be nudged into killing themselves off in a few decades to a century tops (if they don't do it on their own initiative anyway).


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    An Aboleth elder has been devising his 'master stroke' for 10,000 years. After all that careful Machiavellian planning, he begins phase 1...

    The other Aboleths scream, "Frank! NO!! What are you doing?! Don't be so impatient! Jeez, you always had a hair-trigger!"

    :P

    Aboleths... no one really has to worry about them... the situation changes faster then they can adapt to, and they keep having to start over. The problem with 'big brains' is that you tend to over-think EVERYTHING.


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    BigNorseWolf wrote:
    Why does the world seem to cut off east of taldor?

    Damn, someone noticed.

    <starts wheeling the rest of Golarion back in, trying not to look guilty>

    ...

    I was only *borrowing* it, okay?


    Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

    Werent the Aboleths trying to get the upstart Azlanti empire? I didnt think they were out to end all surface life in general. If that's right, they succeeded pretty well in that endeavour - no follow up required.


    Steve Geddes wrote:
    Werent the Aboleths trying to get the upstart Azlanti empire? I didnt think they were out to end all surface life in general. If that's right, they succeeded pretty well in that endeavour - no follow up required.

    For anyone who wants them to still be a threat in their game, they could still see the other human empires as having the potential to reach Azlanti levels eventually, and may want to prevent that - or already are preventing it, which would explain why the rest humanity hasn't already reached the level of the Azlanti over all these years.


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    All this aboleth talk made me think: what about an Azlantians Revisited book? Fill it full of stuff on the original Azlanti as well as their descendants: the gillmen, dark folk, morlocks, grimlocks, and mongrelmen.

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