Alkenstar Technology Diffusion


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

Liberty's Edge

I wonder: how old is Alkenstar? And why Alkenstari tech isn’t more widespread?
I mean; I know they purposely limit Gunworks weapons exports; but, I mean..., I assume they can industrially produce other goods.
I know even on Earth, while in England were occurring the industrial revolution large parts of Europe itself were living an almost Medioeval lifestyle; but even in the deep rural Russia you weren’t seeing medieval knights in full armor, and while farmers lived as centuries before there were already available at least Rinascimental technology level in Russian cities.
I mean... intelligent beings tries always to improve technology (unless you are a Druid) so I don’t see why Cheliax shouldn’t send spyies to know how to make gunpowder or guns or Druma shouldn’t try to acquire, for example, the secrets for manufacturing cheap steel to set up industries in Avistan.
So, if Alkenstar is centuries old, there’s NO WAY there is such technology gap in nearby nations such as Osirion.
Some gap is plausible, even probable, but thinking a XIX century city-state (Alkenstar) and a Medioeval-Ancient World nation (Osirion) can coexist one downriver the other is simply impossible.

Other question: how much of Alkenstari tech comes from the Alkenstar guy and following humans and how much form the Mana original Dwarves?
Because, if I remember correctly, Varisian dwarves in Janderoff had built steel walls and, since in Middleages manufacturing steel was overwhelmingly expensive (that’s why they hadn’t anything bigger than armors made in steel, while we have the Tour Eiffel made in steel, with more efficient and cheap tech). So I wonder how much advanced is dwarven metallurgy and how much Alkenstar technology owes to them (and, if they are so Advanced in Metallurgy capabilities that they can manufacture STEEL WALLS, why the F*K Dwarves are so marginal in Golarion and how could they have been kicked in the ** by Stone Age Ogres! Have you ever imagine trying to pierce a steel wall with a copper-stone lance while people are firing steel darts with a repeating cross bow against your body covered with a leather armor?)

Shadow Lodge

Alkenstar was founded 130 years ago in 4588. The gunworks was set up in 4601, and in 4620 they went production and sales. So guns are roughly a hundred years old.

iirc, Guns ARE starting to be made elsewhere, but agents from Alkenstar hunt down creators to enforce their monopoly.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Guns aren't more widespread for 2 reasons:

1) They're a very polarizing element to include in a fantasy setting—some folks love them, some hate them. By having them in Golarion but not being everywhere, we're trying to give both styles of play support, so that an individual GM can decide what side of that fence she wants to set her game on.

2) It's more interesting to set our current event stories in a setting where guns are just starting to spread beyond the borders of where they were invented, so we can tell stories like the one in "Seven Samurai" where the clash of the old traditions and new traditions is possible.


Also, unlike this world, technology is not the only game in town. Magicks are often safer and more reliable, and technology has its weaknesses that will be exploited if it becomes a common thing. Spark is a temporary annoyance, heat metal warps the more delicate firearms in a rather permanent and dangerous way. In a world where magic is dominant, firearms pretty much must remain exotic. Alkenstar has "artificial" limitations on magic giving an edge to budding technologists.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Indeed. It’s likely that the engineers if Alenstar developed firearms out of necessity. But thise beyond their borders are likely to giew them as foreign curiosities at best, given that they produce relatively few advanatges over, say, an enchanted crossbow. And since manufacturing guns requires the production of relatively difficult to make resources, it’s not like their ease of use or production can outcompete, say, alchemy or magic...yet. Clearly by Starfinder’s time this is drastically different, but those were very different guns.

Rudimentary firearms existed since the 15th century. If I recall correctly, full plate was designed to protect against them. Back then they were wimpy enough that this was actually a solid counter in the tech arms race for a while.

Liberty's Edge

The things you are saying about a little advance over a traditional magic weapon would be right if it were for two points:

1) Magic and magic weapons are quite widespread in Golarion, but not enough to be equipment of wide armies. So: an wide army equipped with proper firearms wins over a wide army with infantry equipped with bows and with an handful of magic weapons. Even because nothing forbidden to the firearms equipped army to use firearms+magic. So firearms may not be decisive for a little party of adventurers. But firearms are decisive for battles (if you are not in my Misvara Universe or your enemy isn’t Xin with it’s Thassilon magicians). So EVERY NATION WANTS FIREARMS. The Nation that gets firearms first wins battle, so, if a single gun arrives in Cheliax, for ex., I don’t see why Abrogail won’t order to experts to examine it and to artisans to reproduce it.
And it’s difficult to imagine Alkenstar forbidding Abrogail from doing something in her domains.
I’m not saying Last Samurai situations are impossible, but, Japan Last Samurai was a reclusive kingdom thousand miles away from Europe; Alkenstar have much more less reclusive neighbors.

2)In Alkenstar there are NOT JUST EARLIER PRIMITIVE FIREARMS. Maybe some Paizo guy can tell something different ; if it’s the case... let’s imagine I said nothing; but I found material in which is stated in Alkenstar there are revolvers.
Now. I don’t know if it’s on purpose or because the creatives liked the aesthetic of revolvers and decided to ignore every technical aspect.
If it’s on purpose maybe someone can explain it.
If it’s because aesthetic beats science, I’ll say: ok guys, it’s a fantasy world, not a history of the war treaty, I’m aware of it. But logic is indeed required. If you add Roman Laegions and cavalry in a Stone Age setting you can’t expect to leave the setting the same.
When I sit to the play table as a Master I must think I’m describing a world that could be real. In which someone could really walk in. It’s required for a memorable play, not just fun, but even majestic, that the Master is fooled to fool the players and make them dream of being in another world for three hours.
And so, to fool the master, aesthetic is equal logic.
Sorry for the digression: the fact is in Alkenstar in some material I found there are both muzzleloader muskets and revolvers. To go from muzzleloader to revolvers are required a lot of technical improvements that on Earth required centuries of efforts in a world were firearms were much more widespread than Golarion. To go from a muzzleloading musket to a revolver are required a lot of intermediate weapons, such as breeechload muskets, increasingly sophisticated percussion cap an, I’m not a weapon expert, but I think, even some kind of magazine weapon. Then you could have a revolver. The army equipped with the next generation of weapons in this list would not just had a vantage over the army equipped with the previous generation, would simply have ANNIHILATED the other army. And, if Turks could have take Costantinopoli, which was unconquerable for more than a thousand years breaching it’s walls with the Rudimental XIV century firearms; what could be the advantage of a nation using XIX century much more advanced fire weapons against a mediaeval Nations ?
So, that’s why ALKENSTAR FIREARMS ARE NOT SO PRIMITIVE (even if the lone revolvers in Alkenstar are the on earth very ephemeral early XIX century muzzleloader-revolvers, any way more advanced than revolver), and ALKENSTAR WEAPONS ARE A MAJOR ADVANTAGE EVEN IN A MAGIC WORLD.
Maybe not for little battles, in which magic/ heroic players, magic items or magic creatures can be much more effective than firearms.
But certainly for big battles with thousand of man, where the equipment is fundamental for the result.
So, the question remains?
How could in a Lone City have developed in a bit more than one century all the progresses that in the Whole Earth has made in five (from the first firearms in western countries -excluding the Chinese firelances, existed for more than a millennia, to invention of revolvers)?
[Unless the Dwarves had already created advanced weapons before Alkenstar discover]
And why nearby Nations aren’t struggling to make firearms be used by they’re regular armies?
Why if a lone adventurer in Taldor or Varisia May have it a king should not have taken interest in them in the last decades?

*With this I’m not saying I don’t like Alkenstar or that Alkenstar is idiotic.
I really like alkenstar and I played a 3 sessions investigative play in Alkenstar and both me and the player loved the setting. (Even the more aficionados to classic fantasy). I think who created it it’s simply a genius!
But I’m simply suggesting to pay more attention to the effects of putting a little industrial revolution in a mediaeval world; and to think an explanation why the things are going how they are going for us poor fool masters (a part from: “Ehi, it’s funny; guys!”).
Maybe, while you are thinking something that could convince even the must stubbornly curious masters, who knows... something interesting such as an adventure could born not-on-porpoise (in the same way not-on-porpoise Internet was created when someone was trying to solve different problems for a group focused on subatomic particles)

Liberty's Edge

*muzzle loader revolver, any way more advanced than muzzle loader muskets

Liberty's Edge

So, it comes for the first time to my mind that, maybe, the coo-existence of primitive firearms (muskets) and quite advanced (revolvers) could be because of the famous Gunworks produces only the more antiquated things and that the real masterpieces (such as revolvers) are made by the Dwarves underground. This could explain why the muskets are much more than revolvers and help explaining how they are keeping secret the most important industrial secrets: for a foreign spy is much more difficult to spy the underground Forges of the reclusive Dwarves than the ones in the overcrowded melting pot city.
This could also explain why they developed so early quite advanced weapons: the answer is: they aren’t.
Dwarves already mastered the creation of revolvers and other things at the time of the founding of Alkenstar; but they shared with the humans just the oldest technology, they already perfectioned millennials ago (but that for humans was already quite impressive).
That would explain why no one outside Alkenstar can make a decent revolver at a decent price. (You can do reverse engineering, but, if you don’t know how Dwarves’ industrial secrets, to built a revolver would be possible but far to expensive for war porpoises).
Other nations interest in muskets could be lesser (given they have a rate fire of 2 per minute, being generous), but for me is not yet clear why they don’t try anyway to create muskets divisions and to build some of them in their Nations: maybe they are; in that case the Alkenstari must sell supplies of muskets enough to discourage industries in foreign countries and limit duties, to sell them to prices hight but not so hight to make economic to built them abroad. In this case I think they should sell at least 5-10 thousand muskets abroad.)
What do you think?

Liberty's Edge

*To make NOT economic to build them abroad.
[...] sell 5-10 thousand per year.

Liberty's Edge

Firearms number could be kept low even limiting the available supply of GUNPOWDER; IF Alkenstar manages to keep absolutely secret the gunpowder formula (maybe producing it only in Dwarven underground facilities) and IF Alkenstar, opearating in an almost monopoly production regime, manages to keep the EXPORTS LOW. If they exported only a limited quantity and no one else is able to manufacture it or to manufacture it in significant quantities, the marginal utilities of other fire weapons would be low. Practically it would be useless for Abrogail to built 50 thousand muskets if this would increase the demand of gunpowder in a way that makes to expensive for her army to buy it in a sufficient quantity to make to 50K muskets useful.
Maybe all the bigger players (Cheliax, Andorran, Taldor, Osirion, Kelesh) of the Inner Sea region decided to agree not to try to make firearms in great numbers to avoid to spend enormous amount of money to make expensive weapons that they can only fire occasionally.

OK, maybe the Alkenstar Government thought all this!
XD

Liberty's Edge

So, if a lone alchemist discover how to do gunpowder and Alkenstar spies find it they hunt it down. The only risk they have to avoid at all cost is that a powerful Nation’s government discover the formula (I don’t think overthrowing Cheliax regime is a viable option). -Could be a funny adventure. To hunt someone that knows the formula and is going to sell it to a foreign Nation. Or to be the hunted.
But, maybe, because I’m a f#+%ing Earther and I know the power of gunpowder I’m giving so much attention to firearms, maybe, for the reasons that I told and other that makes so difficult to create cost-effective fire weapons and for the abundance of MAGIC WEAPONS, they can see less the potential of those weapons. Even more because MOST GOVERNMENTS IN GOLARION ARE CONSERVATIVE. I know in Andoran they are more interested in progress. Maybe there the government pays more attention to firearms. Enough to purchase hundreds from Alkenstar and to create more themselves.
Obviously they don’t have to exaggerate; to avoid Cheliax or Taldor thinks they are becoming to dangerous and preventively attack them.
So, I think muskets divisions in Nations such as Andoran (or Elite Units with Revolvers in Druma, for the matter) May be possible and doesn’t change the war game rules.

Liberty's Edge

But what for all the other industrial capabilities of Andoran?
Flying Baloons or Cheap Steel?
Why they aren’t widespreading?
I think everyone in Golarion would like to have flying balloons (if you don’t already have gryphons) and everyone likes to make cheaper and stronger steel (another Dwarven secret -known by both Janderoff and Alkenstar dwarves)?
And so force all the other Alkenstar marvels (piping waters in commoners’ homes... etc)


(Hint: Use the Edit button instead of making so many posts to add stuff.)

Revolvers were invented in Europe as early as 1597, and maybe even earlier in China, but did not catch on widely until 1836. Given that social and technological evolution on Golarion seems to proceed overall at roughly 1/10 the rate on Earth, it would not be entirely surprising that somebody has currently figured out how to make a revolver, but it is not yet practical for widespread use.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks UnArcaneElection!
Only note: you may referee to muzzle loading revolvers; that predate the modern ones.
There is not any material regarding this, but I Imagine for Alkenstar they Imagined the percussion-cap breechloader revolvers (the ones you can see in a Western) created (or available) in the XIX century.
The revolvers you are referring too, have a fire rate that is almost as bad as muskets’ one. There is not official material.
But I imagine Paizo Guys are referring to the more performant revolvers.


Although I haven't seen any performance test results for the 16th Century revolver, it seems a reasonable guess that even though the overall rate of fire would be similar to that of a musket of the time, the burst rate of fire would be higher (since you have already muzzle-loaded all 8 chambers before you get into a fight, assuming that you had an intermission after the last one).

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