Making a Rogue (maybe Ninja) / Samurai multiclass work?


Advice


So I’m playing Ghost of Tsushima, and having a blast. Jin Sakai is an amazing proto-ninja/samurai.

So I wanted to take the concept, and make it in Pathfinder. Problem is, Samurai doesn’t seem to really work with Rogue or Ninja. If you are sneak attacking, you aren’t really acting with honor, which you are required to do for the Order of the Warrior.

Yes, I could do a different order, or maybe just be a Ronin, but I want Order of the Warrior for being as much a Samurai as possible.

Any suggestions? Maybe a different order that is Samurai-like that would fit better with Rogue (or maybe Ninja)?

Notes: I specifically want the real world concepts of ninja and samurai in this build. That is why rogue would fit better than ninja, because the ninja class is too much myth over reality. Also, I am not asking to build Jin Sakai, so please don’t move this to Conversions. I am merely asking for a way to make Rogue/Samurai multiclass builds work.

In addition, please no spoilers for the game Ghost of Tsushima. I’m still playing the game right now, so any discussion of the game would likely be a spoiler for me.


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Reksew_Trebla wrote:
If you are sneak attacking, you aren’t really acting with honor,

I have seen comments to this going back to the first days of 3.0 and paladin/rogue multiclasses, and I have never understood it. All melee combatants are trying to stab/blugeon the enemy somewhere vital; that's how you win a fight. But before they can do that they have to wear down the target's defences. Sneak attack is just one way (amongst many) of wearing down those defences by targetting those vital areas early. Nothing dishonourable about it (if anything it is extra-honest).

_
glass.


I like Teamwork Feats, I can easily see a couple of levels in Cavalier work with Ninja.

Dark Archive

just play a slayer, flavored to be a ronin
if you really need to, be human and take the alternate racial ability to get 2 exotic weapon profs instead of a bonus feat, and get preferred combo of katana/wakazashi and shuriken


I agree with Glass.
Flanking, and getting a damage bonus from it, is NOT making a 'sneak attack."

Ambushes are a fact of combat. Soldiers throughout time and across cultures have actively sought to put their opponents into a disadvantageous position.

Fighting 'by the rules' is ONLY appropriate or important in formalized or ritualized combat. Your samurai would have to follow the rules of a formal duel, judicial combat, or tournaments... NOT a battlefield.


glass wrote:
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
If you are sneak attacking, you aren’t really acting with honor,

I have seen comments to this going back to the first days of 3.0 and paladin/rogue multiclasses, and I have never understood it. All melee combatants are trying to stab/blugeon the enemy somewhere vital; that's how you win a fight. But before they can do that they have to wear down the target's defences. Sneak attack is just one way (amongst many) of wearing down those defences by targetting those vital areas early. Nothing dishonourable about it (if anything it is extra-honest).

_
glass.

"Death is death, no matter how it is inflicted." --Fritz Haber, inventor of chemical warfare

Shadow Lodge

To use a fictional example, the Lion Clan from the Legend of the Five Rings rpg have this to say, and they are one of the most worried about honor clans.

“On the battlefield, all actions are honorable.”

Also, Samurai have no alignment restrictions. Go crazy. :)


So you want to sneak around and to hit people with Japanese swords, and to follow the edicts of the Order of the Warrior. That's a really low bar to meet. No obvious magic is still a restriction which allows several options.

Being good at sneaking is...maybe a trait and a skill point per level? Maybe twice that if you want disable device as well. Skip the traits for classes with those as class skills of course. Traits are good for conveying background though.

Hitting people with swords is doable with any class, especially with full BAB.

Following the edicts is a RP choice, though a cavalier or samurai is required to choose an order anyone else can do so if they want.

Unless there are other requirements you still have several options here, multiclassing or no. If you don't want sneak attack then sure, don't go that way. Cavalier/samurai, fighter, swashbuckler, slayers who don't really bother with their vestigial sneak attack, maybe a less-mystic archetype of the monk, you could even refluff a barbarian to do this. If you're set on a rogue / samurai there's even a couple of rogue archetypes which give up sneak attack (phantom thief, at least one more IIRC.)

Grand Lodge

Battlefield awareness in order to secure better sneaking chances isn't really the idea to make low blows. I can get why some think that way but it shouldn't be the case. At worst it shows having a different code of honour battle (not everybody puts it at the same level).

I would personally think that trying to exploit opposite weaknesses would be smart rather than underhanded. Seconding Glass saying it's on the contrary very honest because it's plain to see.

It's some sort of an artificial limit when people who won't "abide" by it will always have an advantage. You would have to be specifically built to be able to actively force a ritualistic style of fighting, rather than expecting the opponent will morally agree, which is a long shot.


glass wrote:
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
If you are sneak attacking, you aren’t really acting with honor,

I have seen comments to this going back to the first days of 3.0 and paladin/rogue multiclasses, and I have never understood it. All melee combatants are trying to stab/blugeon the enemy somewhere vital; that's how you win a fight. But before they can do that they have to wear down the target's defences. Sneak attack is just one way (amongst many) of wearing down those defences by targetting those vital areas early. Nothing dishonourable about it (if anything it is extra-honest).

_
glass.

The Order of the Warrior is based off of real world samurai principles. They found it dishonorable to strike from the shadows, they had to fight one on one, and they couldn’t do dirty tricks.

Tell me then, how exactly am I supposed to sneak attack if I can’t flank, can’t attack in a surprise round, and can’t force them to lose their dexterity bonus from shenanigans I perform?


I wouldn't be concerned with sneak attacking as a Samurai, but the use of poisons, assassinations and other methods of dispatching of opponents "Ghost" style.


Reksew_Trebla wrote:
The Order of the Warrior is based off of real world samurai principles. They found it dishonorable to strike from the shadows, they had to fight one on one, and they couldn’t do dirty tricks.

Really? Real-world samurai were mostly archers in an actual battle.

Sure, if they were fighting a duel with another samurai (about the only time most samurai would ever use their katana as anything other than a badge of office), then in theory things should be one-on-one with no shenanagins. But on that subject...

Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Tell me then, how exactly am I supposed to sneak attack if I can’t flank, can’t attack in a surprise round, and can’t force them to lose their dexterity bonus from shenanigans I perform?

...have you ever seen an Iajutsu duel? Most honorable thing in the world for a samurai and the loser is going to be flat footed when the winner strikes. Being a better swordsman than your opponent is not dishinourable, being faster than your opponent is not dishonourable.

Flanking I will give you; in a one-on-one duel that is just not going to happen as a matter of practicality rather than honour.

EDIT: I am obviously generalising rather a lot; the samuarai were around for sone 6-700 years. There is no one thing that "the samurai" were.

_
glass.


I think sneak attack does not translate as low blow or dishonorable behavior per se. When sneak attacking, one aims at weak spots on the body, something that samurai integrated into their martial arts and training.

On the other hand, I would find it harder to use Dirty Tricks as a Samurai since, well they're dirty and thus not so honorable to use.

Remember that the character in Ghost of Tsushima had to make compromise on his code of conduct to take on the Mantle of the Ghost - in his case, the end justified the means even at the cost of his honour.

Mechanically speaking, I think you could make use of the Scout Rogue archetype so you can apply sneak attack as part of a Charge. You could even combine it with Sword Saint Samurai to stack the Iaijutsu strike dmg and aim for that One Strike One Kill move samurais are notable for.


Reksew_Trebla wrote:

The Order of the Warrior is based off of real world samurai principles. They found it dishonorable to strike from the shadows, they had to fight one on one, and they couldn’t do dirty tricks.

Tell me then, how exactly am I supposed to sneak attack if I can’t flank, can’t attack in a surprise round, and can’t force them to lose their dexterity bonus from shenanigans I perform?

So you want to play your character as Lawful Stupid? Is that it? So if the party is fighting a tough creature/boss enemy, would you sit out the combat, putting your teammates in mortal danger, because it wouldn't be a 1on1? Would you withdraw from combat when a party member attacked a target you're already attacking?

In-universe, my character would kick your character out of the group for betraying the party members. OoC, I would ask you to play a character that isn't a disfunctional reverie based on some overly-romantized idea far removed from reality. Because that's what it is - the whole idea of honerable combat can only exist when fighting an opponent who also adheres to that idea. If you try to fight that way all the time, your character doesn't work in an adventuring party and thus has no place in a Pathfinder game.

Order of the Warrior doesn't talk about flanking. It doesn't talk about not attackign an opponent in a time of weakness. What it does talk about is being "loyal to his friends" - the second you refuse to flank someone, or to 'gang up' on someone, you're breaking that part of the code.

Of course, the idea that your character is an honerable combatant to the point of stupidity half the time, and sneaks around spying on people the other half, is kinda ridiculous. Even just playing the code as written is problematic, because "He must conduct himself with honor and dignity." and doing ninja spy stuff are pretty much diametric opposites.

I think you ran into a dead end with your core concept. You say you want to be "as much a Samurai as possible", but at the same time, you want to multiclass and have "the real world concepts of ninja and samurai in this build". You can't do both at the same time. Pick one.

Grand Lodge

With that interpretation, I easily see some GM devilishly smiling at a self-inflicted wound.

And in the end, it's also about not being a jerk about the principles, either towards the GM or the other players. You adapt, not the other way around.

Grand Lodge

Two other options:
1) An intimidate build with shatter defences. You are not fighting dirty you are just very intimidating.

2) A canny tumble /Circling mongoose build. You are not actually flanking your foe - more like attacking from all sides.


Or if you don't want sneak attack, multiclass into something other than vanilla rogue for your sneakiness.


If you feel it's hard to compromise your concept with "acting honourably" I'd just suggest a different order. Your issue isn't with the classes blending it's trying to stick with something you know wont work with the other.


Reksew_Trebla wrote:
glass wrote:
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
If you are sneak attacking, you aren’t really acting with honor,

I have seen comments to this going back to the first days of 3.0 and paladin/rogue multiclasses, and I have never understood it. All melee combatants are trying to stab/blugeon the enemy somewhere vital; that's how you win a fight. But before they can do that they have to wear down the target's defences. Sneak attack is just one way (amongst many) of wearing down those defences by targetting those vital areas early. Nothing dishonourable about it (if anything it is extra-honest).

_
glass.

The Order of the Warrior is based off of real world samurai principles. They found it dishonorable to strike from the shadows, they had to fight one on one, and they couldn’t do dirty tricks.

Tell me then, how exactly am I supposed to sneak attack if I can’t flank, can’t attack in a surprise round, and can’t force them to lose their dexterity bonus from shenanigans I perform?

So, Dirty Tricks, Attacking while Invisible, Attacking through Darkness you can see through but your opponents can't, sucker punching them in the surprise round, ganging up on someone (Flanking), these are like all the ways of locking in your Sneak Attack Damage, and Sneak Attack is like the core ability of Ninjas. I think the answer to your question is you can't.

In game terms, I think you don't really want to be a Ninja or you don't want to be a Samurai. If you want to be like a Samurai that has some ability to be subtle, if not actually sneaky, then you probably want something like Ranger or Slayer.

I have a build for a character that does sneak around and sucker people in the surprise round, but he doesn't kill them that way: he subdues them and ties them up. That might be sufficiently honorable: your call.


how about feinting? Sword feints are a part of any and all sword fighting techniques.

Or, maybe you can use the Iajutsu skill from the Oriental Adventures book? It gave bonus damage dice based on your skill check when you got the chance to draw on someone.


Sneak attack is about hitting your opponent in vital areas when the opportunity presents itself, so is not dishonorable in and of itself.

However, different ways to make that opportunity arise could be dishonorable. Attacking from stealth, invisibility, or a surprise round would likely be frowned upon. Attacking first due faster reflexes (won initiative), feinting, and similar, probably not.


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Teisatsu vigilante. Social identity is a samurai, vigilante identity is the ninja


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Ah yes. The Samurai in the streets ninja in the sheets archetype.


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Reksew_Trebla wrote:
how exactly am I supposed to sneak attack if I can’t flank

There are several feats to flank with yourself (or to deny your foe their Dex bonus). Circling Mongoose and Canny Tumble were already mentioned by *Khan*, there are also Press to the Wall (flank with object), Juke (sidestep on being charged) and Sliding Dash (charge, then move through foe's square). Dimensional Savant is another option, but squeezing dimension door or similar into the build might be challenging.


Look into the warrior poet archetype for samurai. Seems like it would work well for that.

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