Elf Archer

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Sebastian wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
This smurfy glitch has been on this site for years;)
It's a feature, not a bug!

so if I quote someone who said it do i change?

Edit: Oh gawd it happened!!!!!!!!

Volvogg wrote:

Hey All,

Not sure why but I had this random idea for an "Angel Summoner" type character. I have the basics down but wanted to know if there were any other feats/tricks out there that would be a good fit for this concept. Below is what I have so far:

Race: Aasimar

Build: Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18(Celestial)

Traits: Magical Knack, Deft Dodger


  • Summon Good Monster
  • Lightening Reflexes
  • Augment Summoning
  • SF(Conjuration)
  • Sacred Summons

I will be aiming for a Robe of Eldritch Heritage to max out my bloodline powers. I was also thinking about picking up the Arcane Armor Training Feats and some celestial armor of some kind.

I am curious if there is anything that I missing or would be considered critically important for this type of build. Any and all comments welcome.


Did they happen to put a BMX in the technology guide?

I mean we do already have the rogue bandit archetype.

Koujow wrote:

Title says it all. Is taking the feats needed to be able to use a katana as a swashbuckler worth it? Or in other words, is creating that Jin/Kenshin/Kakita style of duelist worth the feat/level investment?

Taking Exotic Weapon Prof (katana) lets you one hand it and taking Slashing Grace allows you to use it for all the Swashbuckler's abilities (as well as add dex to damage). Problem is, there isn't a way to do that at level 1. Slashing Grace requires Weapon Focus.

So option A: Human Swashbuckler, take EWP Katana and Weapon Focus. Rely on your non-existent BAB (since you aren't using Dex yet) until level 3 (to be fair, you have a +1 BAB and Weapon Focus would add +1, but still...). Take slashing grace.

Option B: Human Samurai 2, Take Weapon Focus and ?????. (Not Weapon Finesse, only Swashbuckler makes it more useful beyond light) At level 3, switch over to Swashbuckler and grab Slashing Grace.

Option C: ???????

You could ease the first two levels by putting a decent strength score to bump up attack scores til then, but it becomes next to useless after level 3 (at least your climb and swim checks won't be awful! :D )

So what do you get for your three levels of trouble? Well, Katana deals a d8, instead of a d6 like a rapier or scimitar (the other option for Slashing Grace... which could be done at level 1...). Crit range on all of them is the same. But the Katana has the deadly quality. Also, you will look cool and can pretend you are Kyuzo from Seven Samurai!

If you are going for kenshin, a 1 level dip in magus(kensai) isnt a bad Idea, bladed dash kind of simulates shinsoku, and it gets you the feats needed to pick up slashing grace at level 1 and nets you 1 more ac from int. you can also pick up amateur swashbuckler at level 1 to give you a deed you want at level one and turns into extra panache at level 2. The only weakness is you lose out on finesse at level 1.

Why is Wotc wasting their time follying up a whole new edition of their game when they should just cave in and market their settings and own adventures. They could at least make some money on the success of their most recently successful edition 3.75.

Seriously with all their settings they have more than enough products they could sell and easily make a decent profit. WE NEED EBERRON, DRAGONLANCE, FORGOTTEN REALMS, GHOSTWALK, RAVENLOFT..... The list goes on, right there you have 5 months worth of just hardcovers, then you could go for adventures, miniatures, etc.... seriously do they have apes sitting in the ceo chairs making these pathetic decisions. If they are gonna continue to blindly destroy everything they had worked on for so long they could at least get along with it faster and sell the dnd license to paizo, at least then it would be put to good use.

1. Eberron- theres a lot of goodies in there, it takes high magic to another level, so many unique races and the artificer class. They must all be part of pathfinder!

2.Ravenloft- Good ol' horror setting, would prove to bring many new and interesting rules to the for front for pathfinder.

3.Rokugan- I want more oriental themed stuff for pathfinder, and I really don't care where it comes from!

4.Spelljammer/highscifi setting- I just would enjoy a setting focused on flying through space, encountering various worlds, using rediculous tech/magic. It really brings a new edge on exploring a fantasy setting.

HM.Kingdoms of Kalamar- Very low high fantasy stuff, sometimes you just want a campaign without all the ridiculous races, and focusing more on elements that dont involve fighting rediculous monsters, and just creating intersting characters without going the crazy route of Aismar Sorcerer/barbarian with a crossblooded undead/fey bloodline!

Herbatnik wrote:
I'm looking for complex advice, I know that RAW this is possible.

My solution, Its definitely evil, the PC is willingly putting a creature that is loyal to him in harms way with the animal not immediately being aware or believing it is fighting for its master.. The animal may not stand for it and attempt to leave so the player may be forced to chain the animal up when needed. I wouldn't see the player may need to constantly convince the animal that the trick he is using isn't always harmful otherwise the handle animal check may need to be increased steadily to force the creature to perform the trick.

deusvult wrote:
That's fine for you. Like I said, draw the lines where you will. Perhaps an AC that always makes its saves vs traps finds the ordeal fun whereas a horse ridden nearly to death would like less the idea of being a mount.

I still prefer the good ol' Kobold on a leash tactic anyway.

deusvult wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Why would you do this to your friend?!

I don't see anything in any of the descriptions of an animal companion, special mount, or other pet type that says they are your friend.

I could easily see a NE druid that USES nature for his own gains doing this.

And yet at the same time, what's the AC's motivation to run around with some humanoid? It isn't to be used as a tool for the humanoid's ends.

I see this trap business as no different than using your animal companion as a mode of transportation.

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SillyString wrote:
if I pick up the combat trick from levels in rogue, then gain levels in slayer, can I pick up the combat trick again from the slayer talent?

I would say no, under the hybrid class description at the beginning of the chapter it says you can multiclass with the parent classes, but any redundant abilities do not stack. The rogue talent ability states that you cannot select the same ability more than once, as does the slayer talent ability. Since Rogue is a slayer parent class id say both those clauses in the abilities would prevent you from doing that raw.

Now my own opinion, I would probably allow this at my table because it doesn't seem op to me. A fighter can get a feat every other level and this combo can only do this twice and it waters down each classes other abilites, sneak attack and studied target.

I haven't actually gotten a copy of the PHB yet, but I read the basic rules and liked some of the concepts presented.

Anyone who has gotten the book, from the basic rules I have the impression that this game has taken steps to move away from the Christmas tree effect, is this true?

How does the new warlock compare to its 3.5 counterpart?

Are there any other "optional" rules present in the phb like the multiclassing and feat rules in the basic pdf?

Really annoyed that The tech guide was put on the prd 1 day after it was released, I could have saved my $10.

The new prd does look awesome!

I wanna be that guy so, DIVINE PROTECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So is it just me or could a Hex Channeler Witch use the Extra Hex feat to continue to increase their dice to channeling?

Their channel energy ability states that any time you would gain a new Hex you can instead choose to get an additional 1d6 to your channel energy dice.

So does this mean I am correct in assuming My Hexchanneler could hit 19d6 channel at level 20?

DualJay wrote:

BBEG's dont have to be strictly RAW.
There's RAW and there is making things up. I think I was a player that found this thing out, I wouldn't not be happy that the GM had played with the rules this much. If he stayed within the rules to make the BBEG, that's fine.

Why would you be mad? Shadow jump is actually a very weak use of the Dimensional dervish feat.

RDM42 wrote:
Thinking of the possibility of making a mounted combat type of PC; this is something I haven't done much with before, and was wondering if someone might list the best applicable feats and some suggestions for their use? This isn't asking for a build so much as trying to make sure I'm not missing any lego bricks before I start constructing.

Can I be that guy and say mounted combat? :D

Monk or brawler definitely, monk would give easier access to style feats to switch unarmed attacks to piercing or slashing, for the fork throw use monk of the empty hand. Dip Sorcerer for Illusion, and put points in intimidate for the intimidation aura.

I'm coming up blank on ways to get scent right now. Only one I can think of is Keen scent but its orc/halforc only.

ryric wrote:

So yeah, that's pretty weak.

Could do much worse, why fighter when you could go commoner?

Headfirst wrote:

A giant with a huge club that tries to smash the players as they cross a stone bridge. Every time he misses, his tremendous club bashes a 5' hole in the 15' wide bridge and the target needs to make a reflex save to jump to another square, else they're stuck hanging in the hole and need to make a good climb check or get helped out. If he ever smashes holes all the way across its width, the longer side of the bridge collapses.

I may just need to steel this one!

I'm just gonna toss in a few Ideas I have used from time to time.

1) I will give my "boss" fights "arenas" with very interesting terrain. I've done Boats being rocked to and fro by colossal monsters, Combat across layers of bridges in elven villages high in the trees, On a frozen over lake with the monster beneath the players.

2) I tend to use characters with semi interesting tactics when I know the party will be drained of resources, or I will occasionally do the fully decked out megamonster, but only if the party is at full power.

3) I will use larger specialized events as boss fights Chases, ship battles, A battle between two armies, A town siege, surviving an avalance, and various things like that.

The basic rules of boss fights are make the encounter important enough that it really feels special, and that its something enjoyable for the dm and the players.


Why not go cleric wizard, then gestalt mystic theurge with a full bab class? That way you get all the casting, and still some amazing fighting ability.

The other thought is Sorcerer/orcale, Paladin/mystic theurge! All the casting with 9th level casting, tons of utility with 3 classes of spells to deal with and all of it focused on one stat!

You could just claim a portion of deep sea hexes in a straight line to where you want to go, then claim the next islands hexes.

Sorry Ive been distracted working on a variant magic system, Midterms, and setting up my new campaign that will imminently be starting.

But..... I did a little bit of work on a prestige class that will let a character perform some of the more ridiculous and magical style abilities from the Bo9s using ki points to limit uses. This is that basic outline of the class as well as the abilities you can obtain with it, all I've done is shadow hand so far.

Master of Combat Style



level Bab Fort Ref Will Special abilities
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------
1st +0 +1 +1 +1 Dual Stance, Ki pool, Style mastery
2nd +1 +1 +1 +1 Style Mastery, Dual Study
3rd +2 +2 +2 +2 Style Mastery
4th +3 +2 +2 +2 Style Mastery,Dual Study
5th +3 +3 +3 +3 Triple Stance, Style Supremacy

Dual Stance- You can choose to not lose the benefits of a style stance when you enter a new stance. You may not have more than 2 style stances active at one time.

Ki-pool- A Master of Combat styles gains a ki-pool equal to ½ their level + their choice of Int, cha, or Wis. If they already have a ki- pool from another source their master of combat style levels are added to that classes levels to determine the number of ki points the character has.

Style Mastery- A Master of combat styles develops a deep understanding of the flow of their energies and masters even greater almost supernatural ways of using the various combat styles they have learned. To learn a style mastery a character must have all 3 style feats associated with that style.

Shadow style Mastery-Shadow Leap- You can travel 50ft teleporting through shadows, your movement must begin and end in an area of dim light. You can do it as a standard action by spending 1 ki point, a move action by spending 2 ki points, or a swift action by spending 3 ki points.

Shadow style Mastery- Shadow Noose- You can turn your shadow into a weapon, as a standard action you can spend 1 ki point to stretch your shadows form and attempt to strangle an enemy with it. You can make a ranged touch attack against a flat footed opponent, Maximum of 60ft, to strangle that opponent with your shadow. This attack deals damage equal to your sneak attack damage dice. In addition he must make a fortitude saving throw (DC 16+ your ki modifying ability score bonus) or be stunned for 1 round. A successful save negates the stun but not the damage. You must have at least one other Shadow Style mastery ability to select this one.

Shadow Style Mastery- Assassin Stance- While in your shadow style stance you deal an extra 2d6 sneak attack damage.

Shadow Style Mastery- Dance of the spider- You may expend 1 ki-point to cast the spider climb spell on yourself, treat your character level as your caster level.

Shadow Style Mastery- Shadow clone- By spending 2 ki points you create a duplicate of yourself, this duplicate acts as a copy of your character except it shares your ki pool, and doesn’t have any of your magical equipment, it instead has mundane versions of any equipment you are wearing. The duplicates appears in a square at adjacent to you and can act immediately on your turn. Whenever your duplicate is hit by an attack it is destroyed and you learn of anything your duplicate learned (Such as if you sent your duplicate around a corner that you had not seen, when it is destroyed you would learn what is around the corner). You may spend ki points in increments of 2 to create extra duplicates. You must have at least 2 other shadow style masteries to select this mastery.

Dual Study- Dual study will have something to do with advancing one of your base classes a bit with this prestige class but havent hammered out the details yet.

Triple stance- This is as the dual stance ability, but you may have 3 stances active at the same time.

Style supremacy- To select a style supremacy you must have 3 style feats from the discipline and 4 style masteries from the same discipline unless you choose the master of many styles style supremacy ability.

Shadow style supremacy- 5 shadow infusion strike- This is a melee attack that takes 1 standard action and 5 ki points to initiate, your attack deals damage as though you hit the target with a sneak attack, and roll a d20 to determine the effects of the attack result 1-7 shadows poison legs deal 2d6 dex ability damage, and reduce speed to 0ft. result 8-14 shadow poisons arms deals 2d6 strength damage and cause a -6 penalty on attack rolls. result 15-20 shadow poisons heart and deals 2d6 Dex damage, 2d6 str damage, and 2d6 con damage. A fortitude save (DC 19+ highest ki point ability bonus) will negate the effects but not the HP damage.

The skald from the ACG playtest is arcane and can cast in medium armor with the bard spell list if you wanted a bit more armor and were willing to go with the bard list.

Blackstorm wrote:
Wizards school: what's exactly the difference between spending 2x mana for an opposite school or for the specialization school? I mean, ok, you become something like a cleric that spontaneously cast cures, but I see no advantage on this. I would prefer a discount of some mana points. I don't know, something like -1 or -2 to cast, or something like that. ..

I definitely see where this is coming from, In my final build of the system It is probably gonna be more in line with the cleric domain casting I have.

Keydan wrote:
Hmmm interesting. But something is off. Looks a bit nerffy for casters. Say a 20 Int wizard at level 20 will average at 10+20+(2.5x20)=80 manna. The core rule wizard would have 180 manna worth of spells to cast, not counting bonus spells.

The point is to pseudo nerf casters at higher levels and make them a bit stronger at lower levels. I'm going to add in methods as I continue to work on the system to recharge mana points, so that should make up for the lower total spell power at higher levels. I feel the lower total spell casting potential kind of emphasizes lower level spells and makes the higher level ones that much more special.

@Malwing: I do realize the system can allow for someone to put all their mana points into high level spells, but that is pretty much why I built the system to heal like HP instead of completely refilling each day. A player could really be a D-bag and cast as per the calculation from Keydan above 7 9th level spells in one day, but it would leave their character completely drained for quite some time.
Also at your concern for archetypes and specific spell slots, with the initial build together I'm going to expand the scope of the build to look at the other Base spell-casting classes and their archetypes.

I appreciate all the feedback you guys have given me, When I get my final alpha build together Ill be putting it up for more criticism.

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This is an alpha build for an alternate casting system I am working on. I have a few goals in mind with it, I want to give casters more versatility, I want to bring spell-casters to be more inline with other characters at higher levels, I want to increase the fun of playing spell-casters at low levels, I do not want to utilize the existing pathfinder spell-casting material as much as possible, and I want to prevent nova builds. So here it is below.

Mana based Spellcasting
Mana- A spell caster gains a pool of mana points equal to half their levels in a spellcasting class rounded down minimum one plus their casting ability score. At each new level after 1st level a spellcaster gains a number of mana points equal to their Mana pool die.

Bard: 1d3
Cleric: 1d4
Druid: 1d4
Sorcerer: 1d6

Spent mana points are recovered at a rate of 1 per level per at least 8 hours of rest. A full day of of rest up to 16 hours with no major interruptions recovers twice this amount. you can never heal more than your total.

Cantrips and orisons-
Cantrips and orisons act differently than other spells, these are magical abilities that expend very little mana to cast, but require a pool of mana to always be available. Prepared caster classes can choose to prepare cantrips or orisons whenever they are preparing spells, for each cantrip you prepare you effectively lose access to one mana point that day. Whenever the character would recover mana points from rest they may choose to regain any number of mana points spent on cantrips effectively losing access to the cantrips the prepared, but opening up the points to be used for other spells.
Spontaneous casters lose a number of mana points equal to the number of cantrips they know but always have access to those spells.

Spells cost a number of mana points to cast equal its spell level to cast.
Prepared spellcasters must spend time investing the mana and preparing its use,
during this preparation the wizard is focusing his magical energies to produce the
desired magical effects. Cleric preparation involves prayers which align the divine energies inside of them to channel the spells. Druid preparation involves meditating to
align the natural energies within their body.

Wizard schools- A wizard can expend double mana points to spontaneously cast any spell from their chosen school, spells from their opposite schools always cost double mana points to prepare.

Cleric domains- A cleric may prepare one domain spell of each level each day for one less mana point than it would normally take.

Any input will be greatly appreciated.

Hendelbolaf wrote:
Kenjishinomouri wrote:
A free action is a smaller expenditure of effort than an immediate action, therefore this should be a legal move in combat, when utilizing combat style master, it is most likely a legal move without it, but only once per turn.

Unfortunately a lot of people make the assumption that any action that takes a smaller amount of effort can be substituted for any action that takes more effort, ie a move action can be swapped out for an extra swift or immediate action. That is not the case. Each character is only allowed a single swift action that renews at the end of their turn. They can use an immediate action at anytime during the round but it uses their swift action for that round.

So being able to use a swift action to accomplish a free action is against the rules. As would be trying to give up a move action to gain an extra swift action during the round.

Otherwise, someone could cast a spell as a standard action, a quickened spell as a swift action, and then use a move action to get another swift action and cast another quickened spell. That is not possible.

I only bring it up as it does not allow us to draw extrapolations from feats or abilities that use swift or immediate actions in this specific question.

Only one swift action is allowed per round though, so your proposal of 3 quickened spells doesn't work. The swift action rules I quoted specifically state that, and the free action rules specifically state that you can make multiple free actions at any point during your turn, are you saying that my character cannot make a noise, or say anything while striking a target.

Rules as written state any immediate/swift action is more effort than a swift action, the abilities he brought up say that the action can be performed as an immediate action, there for it is less effort to shift his style than to perform the actions he brought up.

3 of the 4 abilities referenced earlier place the action in question as an immediate action. If one references those abilities and then takes into consideration the base rules for Free and immediate actions which are

PRD wrote:

Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.

Immediate Action: An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn.

A free action is a smaller expenditure of effort than an immediate action, therefore this should be a legal move in combat, when utilizing combat style master, it is most likely a legal move without it, but only once per turn.

I once gave one of my players a shape-shifting sword. As a full round action it could shift into any reasonably sized item(I think this was only our second game ever, and the first one I ever GM-ed so we would discuss weather or not what he wanted to do was allowed). I believe it also could was a +8 item that he could modulate the enhancements on it as-well.

Arkady Zelenka wrote:
Also I think the ability prerequisites for the first style feat shouldn't be 12, it should be 13. You don't really see even ability scores as prerequisites.

That is a good point, I'm gonna change those 12s to 13s.

After I get these ones done I will probably go through GiTP and adapt any that I like them. I might also do the path of war styles the same way.

Here are two more of the disciplines remade as pathfinder combat styles.
I appreciate any input anyone can give on adjustments to the effects or to the prerequisites.

-Devoted Spirit-

Devoted Style-
Prerequisite: Cha 12, Persuasive feat, intimidate 1 rank or Cleric level 1.
Benefit: While you are in your stance any enemy you threaten takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls against your allies. If you successfully strike your target with a melee attack your allies gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls against them until the start of your next turn, this bonus ends if the enemy moves out of your threat range.

Devoted Counter-
Prerequisites: Cha 15, Devoted Style, intimidate 3 ranks, or Cleric level 3 and devoted style.
Benefit: While you are in your stance and successfully strike an enemy with a melee attack until the end of your next turn that enemy provokes an attack of opportunity against you if they attack one of your allies. If your attack hits that enemy forfeits that attack but may still use any other attacks it could that round.

Devoted Spirit-
Prerequisites: Cha 17, Devoted Counter, intimidate 5 ranks, or Cleric level 5 and devoted counter.
Benefit:You add your charisma bonus to the number of attacks of opportunity you get each round.
Also, While in your Devoted Style stance, any time you successfully hit an enemy with an attack you gain 2 hp.

-Iron Heart-

Iron style-
Prerequisite: Str 12, Toughness, Perception 1, or Fighter 1.
Benefit: While you are in your stance, whenever you are attacked you may choose to expend an attack of opportunity to make a melee attack and use the result in place of your AC bonus. If your attack exceeds the opposing attack it does not hit.

Iron Strike-
Prerequisite: Str 15, Iron Style, Perception 3, or Fighter 3 and Iron style
Benefit: Whenever you are in your stance and you deal damage to your opponent with a melee attack they must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+your strength mod) if they fail they are dazed until the start of your next turn.

Iron Endurance-
Prerequisite: Str 17, Iron Strike, Perception 5, or Fighter 5 and Iron Strike.
Benefit: While in your Stance you may make a fortitude saving throw against an effect that you have failed a previous saving throw against, if you succeed you immediately end the effect and heal a number of hitpoints equal to your fortitude bonus.

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I have only done 2 so far but am looking for input on what I have, I'm also converting the base classes from the book into pathfinder hybrid classes. (Swordsage = Monk/Magus, Warblade = Monk/Barbarian, Crusader = Monk/paladin).

These are the two styles I have made and am seeking critical input and suggestions for balancing.

-Shadow Hand-

Shadow Style-
Prerequisites- Wis 12, Stealthy feat, Stealth 1 rank, or sneak attack +1d6.
Benefit- whenever you and an ally are adjacent to a creature you and that ally gain the benefit of flanking.
Normal: You and an ally must be on opposite sides of the creature to gain flanking benefits.

Shadow Strike-
Prerequisites- Wis 15,Shadow style, Stealth 3 ranks, or sneak attack +2d6 and Shadow Style.
Benefit- You gain sneak attack +1d6. Whenever you are using Shadow style you gain a +2 on damage while you are flanking a target.

Shadow Stalker Strike-
Prerequisites- Wis 17, Shadow Strike, Spring attack Stealth 5 ranks, or Sneak attack +4d6 and Shadow strike.
Benefit- You can move at full speed while stealthed and only take a -5 penalty to your check. You can use the spring attack feat and retain your concealment to strike a target. If you end your turn where you could make a stealth check to retain your concealment you can take it as a free action.

-Diamond Mind-

Diamond Style-
Prerequisite- Int 12, Weapon focus (light blade*), or Fighter level 1.
Benefit: While in this stance each successive miss by an opponent grants you a +2 dodge bonus to AC against that opponent, This bonus lasts until the start of your next turn.
* light blade refers to any weapon in the light blade weapon group*

Diamond Strike-
Prerequisite- Int 15, Diamond style, or Fighter level 3 and Diamond style.
Benefit: While in your diamond style stance, for each miss made by an opponent against you during the last round you get a +1 damage bonus, this bonus becomes a +2 bonus when you are wielding a light blade*.
Also, as a standard action you may make a melee attack as a touch attack against an opponent you could normally attack.

Diamond Flurry
Prerequisite- Int 17, Diamond strike, or Fighter level 5 and Diamond Strike.
Benefit: As a full round action make an attack against a target at your highest base attack bonus, if you hit you may make another attack at a -5 penalty. Continue this process until miss the target with an attack. If that target attack and missed you at least once during the last round of combat these attacks are considered touch attacks.

Flamephoenix182 wrote:

Hi all,

I'm currently trying to make a mobile ranged character who effectively kites enemies. The campaign is at level 6. The party is not hugely optimized so I'm not worried too much about not doing the "turret archer" to keep up.

Anyone have any experience building something like this? I'm not really sure how to do it. outside of maybe just doing the vital strike chain than using my move to keep moving around the battlefield and staying away from enemies. I'm not even sure what class would be best for this

I'm pretty sure the Luring cavalier archetype is decent at what you are trying to do.

A rogue scout could be pretty cool aswell, at 8th level they get sneak attack to damage when they move 10ft.

Also if you go zen archer you could utilize the extra speed monks get to stay more mobile.

To counteract the swashbucklers being useless at first level how about adding a line to swashbuckler finesse that states, if the character already has the weapon finesse feat then they gain a +1 on attack roles with light and one-handed piercing weapons, or maybe giving an extra panache point.

This way for games that start at higher levels that swashbuckler could forgo the weapon finesse feat, and games starting at level one a player could take the weapon finesse feat and still gain a boon at level two.

D'arandriel wrote:
Not sure if I am reading the rules from Ultimate Combat correctly, but it seems that you can get superior AC from piecemeal armor than from a full suit of plate. Am I reading this correctly? It's not making a whole lot of sense to me.

Yeah, I had come to this conclusion, You can make superior armor of each size category. The numbers were crunched out on another thread. We made a +9 ac, +3 max dex armor with a -2 Ac penalty, Way superior to full plate, The armor is much cheaper to the above armor We made was somewhere around 200gp, as opposed to the 1500gp you pay for full plate.

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Yeah, curse those designers and their optional rules!

I see nothing that bothers me much about these rules. Armor has long wanted to be more interesting IMO, and the word "optional" means that GMs concerned about abuses should simply ignore the rule.

PCs with slightly higher ACs don't break the game, especially not in mid-high levels. I welcome this rule as it will fix the sense that everyone is wearing the same thing.

If you think any variant rule will be rigorous enough to withstand serious optimization, I suggest you revise your expectations.

The huge disparity in costs is my big issue, when you look at the o-yori torso piece, It costs 750gp, and is inferior to both the agile plate, and full plate torso pieces. I don't expect the rules to be perfect. but I would think they would follow the logic of the base armor rules, where the pieces are priced by their statistics rather than just arbitrarily given random prices.

I really want to love this system, I love the Idea behind it. I just wish it was better executed. The way it is now, It needs to be completely re-written just to use it.

Name Violation wrote:

Stone Coat: This weighty cuirass consists of lamellar

crafted from alchemically treated stone. If worn with other armor pieces, this torso armor piece gains no armor bonus from the other armor pieces, and all of the added hindrances.

no 12 ac for you

I was thinking, you know I should read the stone coat before I post this but I Decided not to and sure enough i was wrong.

Jadeite wrote:

Wouldn't that be +7 AC, + 4 Max Dex?

Four mirror torso, Lamellar horn arms, Hide legs would just cost 47 gp, less than a normal scale mail and offer +8 AC, +4 Max Dex.

The best heavy armor would be plate torso, scale arms and legs.
+9 AC, +3 Max Dex, -4 ACP, ASF 40%, 220 gp.

Yeah, My medium was wrong, Darn my horrible math skills. But still A medium armor that is better than full plate, I don't know how much I could trust this system. Maybe diss allowing any of the eastern armor pieces. Still you can make the better than full plate heavy armor.

So I was looking at the piecemeal armor rules and I think that this is really just broken and unusable in some cases. First It doesn't specify what you are supposed to do with the armor check penalty in the example it just takes the worst piece's so thats what my example will use.

My first look was I just took the three lowest pieces on the list.

Tatami-do arms, O-yori legs, and A stone coat torso. This armor cost 900 gp has a tremendous +12 ac bonus, 0 max dex -7 armor check penalty, and 45% spell failure. Oh this counts as heavy armor That too me is just way better than full plate.

My second look I was trying to make the best possible combination.

Lemellar horn arms, Hide legs, and a chain torso. This armor has +9 ac, + 4 max dex -2 armor check penalty, and 35% arcane spell failure. this is medium armor. Its cost 128gp.

Best Possible Light armor, just because.

Padded arms, Padded arms, and a haramaki torso. this armor costs 5gp, +2 ac, +8 max dex, 0 armor check penalty and has a spell failure of 10%

These were made with basic materials, no mithril not even master worked.
After beginning to read this section I really wanted to like it.

I was wondering what other peoples thoughts on the system was, And if anyone had opinions on how to fix it and make it a little less power-gamy and seething with optimization potential.

Back during 3.5 my group would run feat every level games on occasion for fun. You get some super awesome OP characters, but sometimes it can really unbalance the game. It really depends on the players.

I once Had a wizard that I forgot to buy a weapon for, but I was using a Certain Wotc supplement which I made an Iron spell book with Iron pages. So at one point I ran out of spells per day, and decided to run into melee and start beating the monsters with my spell book. The infamous part of this was it work on a regular basis so I ended up making it part of the characters normal strategy.

Sigil87 wrote:

*shakes head*

first off, as you mentioned the rogue ki pool is not even close to as good as the ninja, 1 it takes a talent just to get the pool and then you don't even get half the ki points a ninja does. Then you have to choose the ninja talents you want to use it. That on top of the "90%" stuff which frankly should be cause for concern to begin with bumps it up even more.

But it seems although i was trying to not troll and give opinions in a clear and constructive manner with others such as bignorse and shadow ect. some still arn't as concerned about being obvious trolls. Thanks

I feel no need to debate this 1 its a ninja thread, 2 Its been debated time and again, I have my opinion you have yours. Obviously no matter what is said, that opinion wont change.

I haven't done much playing since pathfinder came out, Ive played in two games and in both games Ive played an alchemist, I love that class.
In each other game ive gm'd I have had a player play a rogue with one exception in one game their was a bard. I just don't see any issue with rogue. In my games the rogue never seems miserable or left out. He fills whatever role he wants to fill, skill monkey, trap finder, assassin... etc. I can see the argument that you could build other classes to do exactly what the rogue does and make them do it better than a "rogue" but the same is true for any class. An alchemist can do a better job at raging than a barbarian. A magus can be a better mid level caster than a bard. A witch is a better mage than a wizard...Etc.

My guess is a series of mythic books, A mythic core rule book, and maybe an Advanced mythic guide. The Core book will cover all the basics of mythic and the advanced book will expand upon what the core has. As well as have some GMG style explanations of mythic adventuring and what not.

Revan wrote:
OK, seriously: the rogue gets all the Ninja Tricks they want and one Master Ninja Trick of their choice. They can get a Ki Pool to power those Ninja tricks (not quite so good a one, admittedly, and I'd personally change that). I'm pretty sure a rogue can get Poison Use as a Rogue Talent, and if not, he can get it as an archetype. What a Ninja has that a rogue doesn't is No Trace, Light Step, and Hidden Master. Which are all good, but not remotely enough in quantity or quality to justify 'The Ninja has all this awesome rogue stuff that the Ninja doesn't!' 90% of what a Ninja can do, a rogue can do if he wants to.

Well said, there is very little difference between the two, but apparently its enough to break out the "ninja Is OP" discussion.

Sigil87 wrote:

Thats a horrible solution. And it still doesn't change the fact that its replacing 1 class with another by paying money for a new book.

People always reply with just change the name without realizing that its not the same. The rogue has been around for all the other editions before pathfinder came about, i don't see why just because paizo is being lazy that we have to mash up some new money grabbing idea just to make it functional again.

Its NOT about the name. Half of the problem is the principle. The other half is this: i don't want a stupid ninja. Just because its more powerful does NOT make it a good/fun class to play. I want a rogue, the rogue i have loved and played with many times before.

Without a boost to rogues as they are that's basically impossible, even using them just for fluff is a b~*!% to do due to them being useless in a game. It takes the fun out of it.

I also don't see why people are so against the idea of making the rogue useful again? Would it really hurt everyone to gain another viable option again?

I don't even understand all this talk of rogues are useless, players in my group play rogues all the time.

darian Kraft-Kahrau wrote:
why would you choose one of the new materials in ultimate combat for your weapons other than flavor?

They are more for if you wanna run a campaign setting that steel forging is rare or undiscovered. also those orcs you put up against your players maybe they have only been able to make their weapons out of stone. They are much more for flavor. I just ran a prehistoric game and would have killed for these materials.

Edit: I would have killed for platinum as an option. In one of my main campaign settings I have a npc who runs around in platinum full plate with a platinum longsword and platinum sheild.

Xaaon of Korvosa wrote:

Monks are proficient with all Monk weapons. Monk Weapons are noted in the special section, thus monk's are proficient with the following weapons:

I thought all it being a monk weapon did was let you flurry with it.

prd wrote:
Monk: A monk weapon can be used by a monk to perform a flurry of blows

and it says nothing about proficiency under monk proficiency either.

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Kierato wrote:

We have identified the problem.

So what's the answer to the problem?

Play a ninja, or a rogue with the ki talents.

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Cheapy wrote:

In general...there's nothing they can do that someone else can't do better.

Trap Finding? there are spells for that.

Damage dealing? Fighters do more and more often.

Sneaking? A level 2 spell gives you +20 to Stealth.

Skill monkeys? Rangers, Bards, Alchemists, etc.

Something I'm toying with to help out in combat is giving them full BAB while flanking, and them doing a flat amount of extra damage based on level. Or even just full BAB while flanking.

Alternatively, just read all 1387 posts in this thread.

the point of rogue is the spell caster doesn't need to waste his spell on finding a trap, or on sneaking the rogue can just do it, in combat he shouldn't be dealing the most damage, he supports the fighter, not outclass him, skill monkey(I personally feel the alchemist is a BAMF when it comes to being a skill monkey) but the rogue has access to tricks that let him do special things with skills, the rogue is in the class that its not the best at something but its moderate to good at a lot of things.

The problem is that the caster will prep the trap finding spell just to upstage the rogue, or that the rogue will have points in a lot of skills but wont be a master of any (that I feel is a big downside.)

I can see the argument as to why the rogue is weak, but at the same time I feel that its strength relies more on your own groups playing styles.

Joana wrote:

And here goes the rogue's superior versatility. That didn't last long.

That still gives about half of the apg archetypes as rogue only options, about half from what I remember give up trap finding. It really does come down to what you would rather be, a ninja gives you some more stealth options, and could arguably be better at fighting than a rogue, but the rogue is good with traps and is arguably just as good at fighting.

Cabaal wrote:
Is it within the rules to use rogue archtypes for the ninja class. Scout for example would replace uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge. It appears that trap finding are replced by poison use and that Trap sense if replaced by no trace. That would mean a whole lot of archetypes can easily be substituted! Is there an official ruling on this?

Im not sure on an official ruling but I don't see why not, Ninja really is only an archetype in itself, just with a full write up, I would allow it in my games. I would like an official answer as well.

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