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Title says it all. Is taking the feats needed to be able to use a katana as a swashbuckler worth it? Or in other words, is creating that Jin/Kenshin/Kakita style of duelist worth the feat/level investment?
Taking Exotic Weapon Prof (katana) lets you one hand it and taking Slashing Grace allows you to use it for all the Swashbuckler's abilities (as well as add dex to damage). Problem is, there isn't a way to do that at level 1. Slashing Grace requires Weapon Focus.
So option A: Human Swashbuckler, take EWP Katana and Weapon Focus. Rely on your non-existent BAB (since you aren't using Dex yet) until level 3 (to be fair, you have a +1 BAB and Weapon Focus would add +1, but still...). Take slashing grace.
Option B: Human Samurai 2, Take Weapon Focus and ?????. (Not Weapon Finesse, only Swashbuckler makes it more useful beyond light) At level 3, switch over to Swashbuckler and grab Slashing Grace.
Option C: ???????
You could ease the first two levels by putting a decent strength score to bump up attack scores til then, but it becomes next to useless after level 3 (at least your climb and swim checks won't be awful! :D )
So what do you get for your three levels of trouble? Well, Katana deals a d8, instead of a d6 like a rapier or scimitar (the other option for Slashing Grace... which could be done at level 1...). Crit range on all of them is the same. But the Katana has the deadly quality. Also, you will look cool and can pretend you are Kyuzo from Seven Samurai!
You can still hit just fine without Slashing Grace. Since you'd likely want a character with at least 13 Strength to have Power Attack anyways, at first level you could be a human Swashbuckler with EWP, Weapon Focus, and Swashbuckler Finesse. You'd be using Dex for you attack, Strength for your damage, and have full BAB + Weapon Focus. The first levels wouldn't really be particularly rough.
20 point buy character could be
Str 13
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 14
1: EWP, Weapon Focus
3: Slashing Grace
4: Power Attack
At level 1, you'd be swinging at a +5 for 1d8+1. Not the highest, but not terrible. Once you hit 3, your damage would spike up to 1d8+7. Also, your high Dex means you can use ranged weapons just fine the first few levels, too.
So basically, you're not as screwed as you think you are.
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One damage and higher DC's on the Coup De Grace is not worth a feat. And now that you've saved a feat on weapon proficiency, you can have Slashing Grace at level 1.
As far as fluff/aesthetics go, the Scimitar is the game's term for a curved sword that can be used in one or both hands. If it can include the cutlass, sabre, shamshir, tulwar, kilij, and kriegsmesser, it can damn well include the katana.
It shouldn't have been made a separate weapon in the first place, and the "deadly" property comes straight out of left field. How's it any better at executions than say, an axe or greatsword? Because glorious Nippon steel folded ten thousand times?
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Swashbuckler Finesse (and pretty much all Swashbuckler abilities, actually) says the weapon needs to either be light or one handed piercing. Slashing Grace lets you treat a Slashing Weapon as piercing for the purposes of feats and class abilities. So until gaining Slashing Grace, Swashbucklers Finesse is no go, as well as regaining Panache and the Opportune Parry and Riposte deed, which requires the crit or killing blow to be from light or one handed piercing weapons. On the bright side, the other two level 1 deeds would still be useable. Would just have to treat them closer to X times per day abilities.
So you spend two levels wielding a rapier and a bow :P
No it is not worth it. You get about 1 more point of damage for a feat. Just go with a scimitar.
Mechanically, is it worth it? Not really. It's a suboptimal feat investment for a weapon that isn't particularly spectacular. Are you completely screwed as a character if you decide you want to do it for flavor reasons? No, you just might have a rough first two levels. It's up to you if that's a worthwhile tradeoff.
It is not really worth it since wakizashis are a thing in this system.
They are light weapons with 1d6 18-20/x2, deadly, and they can deal piercing damage as well as slashing. IE-it works with everything you have from the get go.
So overall, save yourself the feats and just get something slightly shorter. And I doubt anyone would call you on blurring the line between long wakizashi/short katana.
Get this if you want to spend the feats/effort to get an exotic weapon.
...a bit of a noob here, but couldn't his DM just rule something like the katana can be treated as a race appropriate weapon if the character is from the area where katanas are common? I mean, logically the only reason a katana is a exotic weapon is because it's well, exotic meaning foreign to western settings. I mean, would a rapier be a exotic weapon in Tian?
A katana is basically a two handed sword designed for slashing, right?
Half-Elves have an alternate racial trait for EWP as a bonus feat. Also, Tengus get Swordtrained and are from the region. Neither of those actually get you Slashing Grace earlier though.
You could use a martial weapon (wakizashi seems good) for the first 2 levels with WF and Slashing Grace. At third get katana proficiency. You could make it into some kind of growth moment for you character.
...a bit of a noob here, but couldn't his DM just rule something like the katana can be treated as a race appropriate weapon if the character is from the area where katanas are common?If you're playing a home game, sure.
Also wouldn't help. The katana is a hand-and-a-half sword by rule, like the bastard sword, and hence one-handed use is exotic in its home territory as well.
Which actually makes sense. The niten style of fighting, where you use the katana with a single hand, is rather rare and specialized. Most styles of fighting focus on single-sword use. See this film for an example of a set of traditional iaido kata and notice how the swordsman uses both hands as often as practical.
Wakizashi already works with the swashbuckler's abilities because it deals P/S, so you don't need Slashing Grace.I don't think Slashing Grace works with light weapons. Which means wakizashi will not get DEX modifier to damage.
There seems to be a byline in slashing grace for dex to damage, if I am not mistaken.
Still...wakizashi are light, finessable weapons. They qualify for the agile property. And unlike most dex builds before the advent of swashbuckler, the player is just fine with only a single agile weapon (TWF is a ***** on the wallet)
So this is a classic improved critical vs. keen problem. Personally, I go with the option that lets me use my favored weapon immediately, instead of waiting until I can scrounge the feats together (having to settle due to slow start up is a pain).
And honestly- it is only 1x your ability score modifier. It is nowhere near as important as precise strike (which won't work until you have the feat) and power attack/piranha strike (which dex builds always seem to put off when things get tough; also- you need power attack rather than being able to grab piranha strike if you go with katana. Not sure if needing 13 str is a problem...but it is there as a consideration)
Makes me think a Swashbuckler gestalted with a magus would be pretty good for this kind of Kenshin style swordfighter.
gestalted with a bladebound kensai magus perhaps? Get a free magic weapon at the same time you get precise stike....hmmm the damage potential is staggering and comes with the nice little bonus of magic
hmm and if the gm allows it add in eldritch scion to change your casting to charisma so as to be slightly less mad.
It would have to be Homebrew, because both replace Spell recall.
Also most of Kensai's abilities are based off Int so it wouldn't really make it less mad
Or 2 level of ranger dip to get free power attack?
Magus//Swasbuckler get Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats at level 1, meaning any race with this combo would be able to get Slashing Grace or later Fencers Grace with their level 1 feat.
Also you can mostly dump Cha extra panache is sweet
Special: If you have levels in the swashbuckler class, you can take this feat multiple times. Each time you do, these benefits increase by two.
So basically say hello to Font of Inspiration for Swashbucklers.
Am I reading that right? If you take extra panache twice, you get 6 panache? (2 + 4) take it again and you have 12? Etc? Basically, each time you take it, your panache increases exponentially?
Hence the Font of Inspiration comparison.
Also not to hijack the thread but Inspired Blade Swashbuckler uses INT+Cha for Panache, and at 11 adds Int to hit by spending a panache point.
for teh swashbuckler stuff do the weapons HAVE to be held one handed to benefit since it just says you need the m to be onehanded weapons not that they cant be wielded with two hands... if that does work you can get the 1.5 bonus....
lets see shocking grasp at lvl 3 is 3d6+1d8+3 (precise strike)+5(dex to damage slashing grace possibly +7) + 1 from black blade +1 acrane pool point +1 from black blade point
for a total of 3d6+1d8+11(to 13) at a +10 to hit (1 from blade, 1 from arcane pool point, 1 weapon focus, 2 bab, 5 dex) or if vs enemy in metal armor or holding metal a +13 (3 more from shocking grasp)
avg damage is
23+3 precise damage on regular and 46+3 precise damage on a crit
minimum 15 maximum 37 on regular and min 27 max 71 on crit
Not to shabby for a level 3
Inspired Blade gives you weapon Focus and Finesse so Fencer's Grace at level 1 means you are not using Str but instead Dex. At level 5 you are counted as having Improved Critical so a rapier (You are married to it with this archetype) crits at 15-20/x2Also I noticed you didn't apply the Perfect Strike lv 4 ability of the Magus which allows you to maximize the dice roll for damage meaning at level 5 you are rolling 5d6+1d6(Maxed)+5+(Dex at level five can easily be +7)+1 Blade Blade +1 Arcane Pool +1 Blade pool for 41 on an average roll 82 Crit
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for teh swashbuckler stuff do the weapons HAVE to be held one handed to benefit since it just says you need the m to be onehanded weapons not that they cant be wielded with two hands... if that does work you can get the 1.5 bonus....
The way that precise strike scales actually appears to be based on balancing a 1handed/1weapon style with a 2handed style.
Assuming the bonuses from strength and power attack for the 2 hander, a precise strike raises your damage enough that you can begin to compare it to other full BAB martials like rangers, paladins, and barbarians who are running around with great swords (it then has swashbuckler weapon training on top of that in order to match up with their various damage boosting stuff).
The features of the class encourage this style, and that is why it has the prerequisite of 1 handed for its better abilities.
Another fun fact-since they can use bucklers in all this, they are also fantastic for non-TWF sword and shield (since hey, they hit like 2 handers-great mobility since you aren't crippled when taking a move action). Along with similar encouragement of throwing weapons and some of the maneuver/mobility stuff...this class is meant to salvage a lot of the stuff people have written off as weak.
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for teh swashbuckler stuff do the weapons HAVE to be held one handed to benefit since it just says you need the m to be onehanded weapons not that they cant be wielded with two hands... if that does work you can get the 1.5 bonus....
While it could be a fun work around, I fairly certain that is not the case. Any weapon that is 1.5 hands (So, Katana, Longsword and Bastard Sword?) have to be used one handed. Maybe one of the abilities could be argued against, but most of them say things like "when using a Light or One Handed Weapon". If you two hand the weapon, I think that makes it officially, in mechanic terms, a two handed weapon, even though it could also be ONW. ...also, I think I confused myself with that statement... @_@
But while it makes sense in the romanticized version of the iaijutsu samurai (a lot of movies, anime and other media have quick draw masters doing their stuff with one hand), it doesn't match up with the mechanics. Which is kind of sad.
I feel like Paizo missed out on a real chance for a few Swashbuckler archetypes, including the iaijutsu duelist, a Florentine duelist (TWF with Rapier and Dagger style) and a Crounching Tiger, Hidden Dragon version (A Swashbuckler with some monk powers). Unfortunately, a 3rd party came in and already made the Iaijutsu duelist archetype, which means that Paizo probably never will and therefore, it would never be PFS legal. (The Sword Saint Samurai is a heavily armored character with no in class way to boost AC, leaving me unable to play the nearly unarmored type of duelist) Also the Kata Monk (Monk who gains a few swashbuckler powers) remains a unarmed class (although I bet it could be built to pull off the CTHD style character). The Florentine style of dueling could still be done, but you are sacrificing Precision damage in favor of extra attacks. Don't get me wrong, I love the class and archetypes given. But there were a few more I would like to have seen. The Kensai (which also means Sword Saint, lol) is the closest thing we have.
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gestalted with a bladebound kensai magus perhaps? Get a free magic weapon at the same time you get precise stike....hmmm the damage potential is staggering and comes with the nice little bonus of magic
hmm and if the gm allows it add in eldritch scion to change your casting to charisma so as to be slightly less mad.
It would have to be Homebrew, because both replace Spell recall.
Also most of Kensai's abilities are based off Int so it wouldn't really make it less mad
bladebound doesnt effect spell recall. it works
I feel like Paizo missed out on a real chance for a few Swashbuckler archetypes, including the iaijutsu duelist, a Florentine duelist (TWF with Rapier and Dagger style) and a Crounching Tiger, Hidden Dragon version (A Swashbuckler with some monk powers).
They missed out on a real chance for a sword & pistol Swashbuckler, what with the Picaroon being so botched.
bladebound doesnt effect spell recall. it worksgestalted with a bladebound kensai magus perhaps? Get a free magic weapon at the same time you get precise stike....hmmm the damage potential is staggering and comes with the nice little bonus of magic
hmm and if the gm allows it add in eldritch scion to change your casting to charisma so as to be slightly less mad.
It would have to be Homebrew, because both replace Spell recall.
Also most of Kensai's abilities are based off Int so it wouldn't really make it less mad
To clarify I was meaning Eldritch Scion replaces Spell Recall as does Kensai replaces Spell Recall with Perfect Strike.
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I feel like Paizo missed out on a real chance for a few Swashbuckler archetypes, including the iaijutsu duelist, a Florentine duelist (TWF with Rapier and Dagger style) and a Crounching Tiger, Hidden Dragon version (A Swashbuckler with some monk powers).They missed out on a real chance for a sword & pistol Swashbuckler, what with the Picaroon being so botched.
I only glanced at the Picaroon. What do you think is wrong with it?
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You could consider going Daring Champion.
Hell, I have considered looking into a similar build, that would be the envy of my weeaboo buddies.
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Swashbucklers are supposed to fill a niche for Pirate themed characters and 3 musketeer type characters. Why would you try to force a weapon like a Katana into this theme? Pazio needs to add a few weapons like the epee, foil, main gauche and the sword breaker with rules.
I don't know why Fencing Grace was not included in the ACG because it was
clearly all ready in the DEV's hands. I think it was just poor editing where it was cut by mistake. It will be added in a future book. That I will by. We must all remember that Pazio is in business to sell books and be forgiving to them when they make a small error in leaving out a feat like fencing grace.
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Swashbucklers are supposed to fill a niche for Pirate themed characters and 3 musketeer type characters. Why would you try to force a weapon like a Katana into this theme? Pazio needs to add a few weapons like the epee, foil, main gauche and the sword breaker with rules.
Your class is not your identity.
You create the flavor, and it is never restricted by the name of your class.
It requires houserules to create this "flavor restriction".
A bad houserule.
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I only glanced at the Picaroon. What do you think is wrong with it?I feel like Paizo missed out on a real chance for a few Swashbuckler archetypes, including the iaijutsu duelist, a Florentine duelist (TWF with Rapier and Dagger style) and a Crounching Tiger, Hidden Dragon version (A Swashbuckler with some monk powers).They missed out on a real chance for a sword & pistol Swashbuckler, what with the Picaroon being so botched.
- No damage bonus to the Pistol means there's little reason to use it beyond the low levels. Even if it hits Touch AC it's doing 1d8+Squat for damage. Between this and Gun Feint, you'll be known as the guy who carries a pistol and keeps threatening to shoot people with it, but never actually does.
- Loss of Opportune Parry and Riposte, in exchange for a deed that lets you spend one Panache to not provoke attacks of opportunity with one pistol shot per round. This Deed is a Swift Action on a class notorious for having too many abilities on the Swift and Immediate Action.
- No method of reloading while you have a sword in one hand and a pistol in the other.
- Lightning Reload as always comes intolerably late, and it allows just one reload per round anyways. Which you can't do if you have a sword in your other hand.
So in the end there's no reason to use the Picaroon, because the sword & pistol schtick is still way more trouble than it's worth.
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Your class is not your identity.
You create the flavor, and it is never restricted by the name of your class.
+1 to you, good sir.
Pazio needs to add a few weapons like the epee, foil, main gauche and the sword breaker with rules.
How exactly are these different from a rapier? I am sure Fencers can tell you a million differences between a Rapier, Epee and foil, but the same can be true for just about any sword user. There are actually a handful of different swords one could call a Katana, but rather than try to create variety between a Katana, a Ninjato or Kojiro Sasaki's drying pole katana (there is a name for it that I can not remember) they just said "Those are all Katana." A Longsword is different enough from a Katana from a Bastard Sword to get unique items.
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I only glanced at the Picaroon. What do you think is wrong with it?I feel like Paizo missed out on a real chance for a few Swashbuckler archetypes, including the iaijutsu duelist, a Florentine duelist (TWF with Rapier and Dagger style) and a Crounching Tiger, Hidden Dragon version (A Swashbuckler with some monk powers).They missed out on a real chance for a sword & pistol Swashbuckler, what with the Picaroon being so botched.- No damage bonus to the Pistol means there's little reason to use it beyond the low levels. Even if it hits Touch AC it's doing 1d8+Squat for damage. Between this and Gun Feint, you'll be known as the guy who carries a pistol and keeps threatening to shoot people with it, but never actually does.
- Loss of Opportune Parry and Riposte, in exchange for a deed that lets you spend one Panache to not provoke attacks of opportunity with one pistol shot per round. This Deed is a Swift Action on a class notorious for having too many abilities on the Swift and Immediate Action.
- No method of reloading while you have a sword in one hand and a pistol in the other.
- Lightning Reload as always comes intolerably late, and it allows just one reload per round anyways. Which you can't do if you have a sword in your other hand.
So in the end there's no reason to use the Picaroon, because the sword & pistol schtick is still way more trouble than it's worth.
Beware that I know this is a terrible idea in game, but maybe take the real world equivalent. I read somewhere that the pirate Blackbeard kept 4 pistols strapped to his chest. During combat, he would draw it, fire and toss it away and draw another. Repeat. Granted, a Pistol is expensive, so strapping 4 to your chest is a bit of an investment. And you still suffer the problem of only doing 1d8, but you don't have to worry about reloading for 4 rounds! :D
As someone who fences epee I'd say that in terms of weapons for actual combat a rapier is the same as an epee. If you are fencing foil... why are you fencing foil?
*Puts on sunglasses* Bring it foil fencers.
I would like to see a twf archetype for the swashbuckler but I've been trying to think of how to do it without making it stronger then the default, and the only way I see it working is to remove or reduce Precise Strike.
Beware that I know this is a terrible idea in game, but maybe take the real world equivalent. I read somewhere that the pirate Blackbeard kept 4 pistols strapped to his chest. During combat, he would draw it, fire and toss it away and draw another. Repeat. Granted, a Pistol is expensive, so strapping 4 to your chest is a bit of an investment. And you still suffer the problem of only doing 1d8, but you don't have to worry about reloading for 4 rounds! :D
Not so unfeasible in PFS. You could burn prestige points to outfit yourself with masterwork weapons.
Title says it all. Is taking the feats needed to be able to use a katana as a swashbuckler worth it? Or in other words, is creating that Jin/Kenshin/Kakita style of duelist worth the feat/level investment?
Taking Exotic Weapon Prof (katana) lets you one hand it and taking Slashing Grace allows you to use it for all the Swashbuckler's abilities (as well as add dex to damage). Problem is, there isn't a way to do that at level 1. Slashing Grace requires Weapon Focus.
So option A: Human Swashbuckler, take EWP Katana and Weapon Focus. Rely on your non-existent BAB (since you aren't using Dex yet) until level 3 (to be fair, you have a +1 BAB and Weapon Focus would add +1, but still...). Take slashing grace.
Option B: Human Samurai 2, Take Weapon Focus and ?????. (Not Weapon Finesse, only Swashbuckler makes it more useful beyond light) At level 3, switch over to Swashbuckler and grab Slashing Grace.
Option C: ???????
You could ease the first two levels by putting a decent strength score to bump up attack scores til then, but it becomes next to useless after level 3 (at least your climb and swim checks won't be awful! :D )
So what do you get for your three levels of trouble? Well, Katana deals a d8, instead of a d6 like a rapier or scimitar (the other option for Slashing Grace... which could be done at level 1...). Crit range on all of them is the same. But the Katana has the deadly quality. Also, you will look cool and can pretend you are Kyuzo from Seven Samurai!
If you are going for kenshin, a 1 level dip in magus(kensai) isnt a bad Idea, bladed dash kind of simulates shinsoku, and it gets you the feats needed to pick up slashing grace at level 1 and nets you 1 more ac from int. you can also pick up amateur swashbuckler at level 1 to give you a deed you want at level one and turns into extra panache at level 2. The only weakness is you lose out on finesse at level 1.
I would like to see a twf archetype for the swashbuckler but I've been trying to think of how to do it without making it stronger then the default, and the only way I see it working is to remove or reduce Precise Strike.
Precise Strike already doesn't work if you're two weapon fighting. I'd actually leave it on, so that you can still get decent damage out of Standard Action and Opportunity attacks.
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Swashbucklers are supposed to fill a niche for Pirate themed characters and 3 musketeer type characters. Why would you try to force a weapon like a Katana into this theme? Pazio needs to add a few weapons like the epee, foil, main gauche and the sword breaker with rules.
Because that ignores the flexibility of tropes as well as the convergent evolution of a variety of character archetypes that share similarities between cultures?
For the Western audience (I am vaguely more familiar with this), the evolution of this character archetype went VERY roughly like this (of course previous forms always found resurgence, and as such co-exist with later forms):
Classical heroes of Greece/Rome->
Knight Errant->
Swashbuckler->
Gunslinger->
Hollywood action hero (such as the typical characters of Bruce Willis and Arnold
Through this evolution, there are of course important key characteristics of each archetype that distinguishes from prior eras. While Greco-Roman heroes places an emphasis on intelligence and wits (displaying their mental superiority over the supposedly barbarous cultures outside of their lands), the romanticized image of lone knight instead relies more heavily upon faith and God's favor (see the 5 fives listed in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, which is a one of the more popular examples of the genre). This shift demonstrates the power of the church over military forces during the Middle Ages, as the struggle between the religious authorities and the nobility lead to a delicate balance that was enforced, in part, with the popular culture.
The swashbuckler, in comparison, is a child of the Renaissance. He is out going, dashing, well read, a ladies' man, and just as quick to use his rapier wit as his actual blade. Obviously, compared to the Middle Ages' knight errant, he lacked the discipline and stoicism, while at the same time reveled in the new found freedom of the era and exemplifying its possibilities (both good and bad).
The Gunslingers of the Wild West took this moral ambiguity a step further, while combining it with the American conception of the fire arm as a way to express one's personal freedom. America, a nation born from conflict that carried the boom of gunpowder rather than the clang of steel, had little room for the sword, and its victory gave a clear symbol of freedom that has not yet been muddled (unlike any symbols you might find in Europe...which has had a long history of backs and forths. And just like how America found little time for the sword, the gunslinger, living in the unforgiving frontiers, had little time for the vast education that typified he swashbuckler, and instead it marked a return to the stoic nature of the knight errant in demeanor (if not beliefs).
Now then: the cultural conception of Samurai that forms the basis of what is known to the English speaking world is both from the actual centuries of tradition and martial arts developed in Japan....and it is also the child of the Wild West as western films streamed into the nation in the 1900's. With famous film makers such as Akira Kurosawa drawing upon Spaghetti Westerns as inspiration, the popular conception of the Samurai ended up highlighting the shared cultural roles of the Ronin and the Gunslinger (lone, mysterious wanderers that went from land to land, stoically saving innocents with their skills and weapons). And this shared nature in fact allowed this process to work both ways, as several famous samurai movies gained Western adapations (such as the Seven Samurai becoming the Magnificent Seven and Yojimbo becoming A Fist Full of Dollars and later Last Man Standing (which allows us to also see how this character archetype also connects with the modern action Hero of Hollywood)
So in conclusion- Why should we allow the swashbuckler to include aspects of samurai? Because the current samurai is just as much a child of the western tradition that includes swashbucklers as it is a child of the daimyos and shoguns of the Pre-Meiji era.
PS- Sorry I went on so long about this. Lit Major and all. Anyway, I never fell in love with the ACG as 'swashbuckler'. All I ever saw it as was a vehicle that served well in making 1handed/1weapon, nonTWF sword and board, and throwing weapons all rather viable. So I frankly cannot get offended when someone uses the class as a mechanical vehicle for using those styles. But poor understanding of the evolution of tropes still gets to me.