| 6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Combat Style Master says you can change styles as free actions as often as you like. Not restricted by 1-turn as long as you only take free actions on your turn.
I can take a free action any time, many effects are used as free actions before or after an attack roll.
So the question:
Can i use Combat Style Master just before an attack roll to say get the improved -1 only to hit from fighting on defensive with crane style chain, then after i hit i change to dragon style chain to get the bonus on the damage rolls?
Like creating a mini MoMS that only works on your turn.
I would really appreciate an official ruling so i can use on PFS play.
Thanks :)
You can't change DURING any single attack (between the attack roll and the damage roll), but you can change before, after or between attacks (if you get multiple due to flurry or TWF or high BAB).
Some quick clarifications, but I think this is what you meant.
You can only take Free Actions on your turn. You had said "any time" so I thought I would reiterate that point.
A Free Action is still an action so you could not use it in the middle of your attack action in my opinion. It would be like trying to use Power Attack after I hit but before I rolled damage so I would not have the to hit penalty but get the damage.
So, no, you cannot switch styles in the middle of an attack action. Unless there is some tidbit of the rules that I am missing, that is how I would rule.
While attack and damage rolls are made separately, this divergence does not exist within the reality of the game world. When you are hit by a sword it deals damage then. The instant you are hit. Not a half second later after we've seen it hit you. There is no time between the attack roll and the damage roll.
There is no "space between" the attack roll and the damage roll, so what you're proposing would not work.
This is a common mistake.
There are many swift and immediate actions that you can take after you attack but before you roll damage. Let me list a few:
From UC:
"Without a Master, ronin ability, Pg 22"
"Arcane Edge, Magus Arcana, Pg 54"
"Prescient Defense, Magus Arcana, Pg 55"
"Perfect Strike, Kensai ability, Pg 55"
Just to name a few that give you choices as free actions, swift actions or immediate action after you hit but before you roll damage.
By RAW that should apply to any style chain as long as you have Combat Style Master right?
Technically youre combining the styles, as the flavor text of Combat Style Master implies.
By RAW that should apply to any style chain as long as you have Combat Style Master right?
No, it only applies to those abilities specially because they say they allow you to take the action.
And free actions can be used in your turn whenever you want. There is any clarification saying against it?
I never saw a rule saying against it making only specific cases apply like youre implying. Is this ruled/clarified somewhere?
Thanks.
And free actions can be used in your turn whenever you want. There is any clarification saying against it?
I never saw a rule saying against it making only specific cases apply like youre implying. Is this ruled/clarified somewhere?
Thanks.
This has nothing to do with free actions. Free actions cannot be used between the attack roll and the damage roll. No type of action can, except for some special actions which modify this. Those actions can happen to use any type of action free/immediate/move/standard, but it's the fact the the description of the ability confers the special ability to interrupt the normal flow which means that attacks and damage aren't separated.
Also, there is no rule against it because Pathfinder isn't a rule set based on exceptions. The rules tell you what you're allowed to do (mostly) not what you're not allowed to do.
Do you have any source that says your allowed to do it besides a few special abilities which explicitly grant you the power to do so? The fact that they specify you can do this should let you know that it's not something that you can normally do.
The problem is that youre assuming!!!!
One friend of mine gave a similar answer but he couldnt explain why?
I am not discussing something like "the game dont say i need to breath, so i dont need to breath(well actually it says, but was just a example).
The action system, and action economy, is the heart of a RPG system, so everything should be explicit. For exemple, even with 30ft move on your character, the game specifies that you need a move action to move 30ft and how you do it(diagonals, difficult terrain...).
All actions are very well defined, there is not a single sentence in the entire combat chapter talking about execptions to action rules. And the game is VERY clear saying you can take Free actions on your turn WHENEVER you want and if there are actions that can be used after an attack roll they are not exception cause there isnt a rule forbiding it! So if i can take a swift action after i hit, i can take a free action after i hit! Thats not exception! Thats a trigger... hitting or missing a roll is a trigger to actions as are declaring an attack(for power attack wich needs your first attack or full attack).
This is a system and the feat seems to allow something simple, i just want to know if there is anything WRITTEN that forbids it.
And the game is VERY clear saying you can take Free actions on your turn WHENEVER you want and if there are actions that can be used after an attack roll they are not exception cause there isnt a rule forbiding it!
Wrong!
"Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM."
So, ask your GM and get his opinion. You said it was for PFS so good luck with that!
If it were me I would laugh and just move on after saying no.
Can i use Combat Style Master just before an attack roll to say get the improved -1 only to hit from fighting on defensive with crane style chain, then after i hit i change to dragon style chain to get the bonus on the damage rolls?
Short answer: No
I would do a longer answer but the no pretty much covers it.
And both answers have no base. I can accept a no WITH some base.
And both answers have no base. I can accept a no WITH some base.
I am not sure if anyone will be able to answer you to your desire as there is no place that says "you cannot interrupt an attack action with a free action" just as there is no statement in the rules that says "you may interrupt an attack action wit a free action."
The four abilities that you listed above are not free actions at all. One is a non-action and the other three are immediate actions. So, they are not really relevant to what you are trying to get at here in my opinion.
I see the only relevant rule is what I already quoted saying "there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM." So my advice is ask your GM. He could say yes, he could say no.
Show me in the rules where it says or even remotely implies that there is a general rule of being able to separate an attack roll from the damage roll. Don't show me specific abilities which grant the power, they are not reminding you that you can normally do this. They are telling you as part of this special ability you can activate the ability between the attack roll and damage, and its so that you don't waste a limited resource on missed attacks. Which if you could, would make it a very crappy power.
But I suspect you're going to come in here with your same argument asserting that your way is the general rule despite everyone else disagreeing with you and you will refuse to accept any answer you don't like. But the truth is you're wrong. You just don't want to accept it.
Seriously, just imagine swinging a sword at someone. You're attacking, attacking, attacking. Finally you connect with your enemy, what happens? Do you suddenly stop to determine how much damage you did for even a second? NO! The damage occurs as soon as the weapon connects. There is no difference between when your weapon hits and when it causes damage. You could use a free aciton before the attack or between your attacks if you have iteratives, but there is no space between the attack and damage roll. The game is an abstraction, when you roll damage rolls separately from attack rolls its because it doesn't necessarily make sense to roll them at the same time if you don't know what AC you need to hit. Though if you did, you could roll them at the same time, though the damage roll might be a completely wasted roll. The two are not divorced from one another.
Claxon, this has nothing to do with liking or not the answer. Its like the reasoning behind it.
Everybody is just "taking for granted" things that arent granted like when you can trigger actions and when you cant. There are already many abilities that can be done beteween the attack roll and the damage roll.
I just wanted a clarification, specific ruling or some argument based on a similar case.
"No"
dont give any. A hundred people saying 2+2 is 5 dont make it true, sorry.
If someone know some similar case that was ruled as invalid(i dont know, other ability that can be used as free action any time on your turn but was specific ruled that it cant interrupt an action, be it an attack roll or any other action that requires 2 consecutive rolls as part of the same action and the second roll is tied to the first)
I have the precedent of having MANY abilities that can do that, and they arent by themselves being exceptions because most of them can ONLY be taken at that specific trigger and there is not specific saying that a free action can't be taken after an attack roll. And an attack roll is well defined in the game system as happening before a damage roll. So you have a trigger opportunity there. I gave reference for this being valid, as you said immediate actions can be taken there. Thats why i am arguing that free actions could as well since there is no rule that are being specific broken.
So if a game designer wants to clarify, i am very ok with that. If random peole just want to say "no, because i dont want to and ignore the game system" i really dont see a reason to take that into consideration. If the same random people can give me a reference of a ruling that works very similar with that and could be used to make a precedent for this one, youre welcome to link. Thats what i am looking for, not unsupported opnions.
3 of the 4 abilities referenced earlier place the action in question as an immediate action. If one references those abilities and then takes into consideration the base rules for Free and immediate actions which are
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.
Immediate Action: An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn.
A free action is a smaller expenditure of effort than an immediate action, therefore this should be a legal move in combat, when utilizing combat style master, it is most likely a legal move without it, but only once per turn.
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A hundred people saying 2+2 is 5 dont make it true, sorry.
Likewise, one person saying 2+2=5 doesn't work, either.
That's the definition of what you're doing, here.
You're taking the concept of free actions (2) and the few corner-case examples that exist of an ability you can do between attack and damage rolls (2) and using them (+) to justify using free actions, as a general rule (=), between attack and damage rolls (5).
Corner cases exist. They override the general rule to do something special. They wouldn't be worded the way they are if that's how things worked already.
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@RafaelBraga,
Well you are free to wait until one of the game designers speaks up, but keep in mind there are a lot of messages on the forums. As such other folks will give you their opinion.
The key thing to remember is, it is your game (well you and your DM & player group). So if you want the rules to work that way then they do.
However from the scenario you provided, I don't see how it can be supported by RAW.
Also consider, a lot of DMs who have large table sizes or limited time, request that their players roll both attack and damage dice at the same time. I'm seen a number of PFS DMs request that as well to ensure that the game is moving along at a decent pace.
So if attack dice and damage dice can be rolled at the same time, then chances are you would be unable to interrupt the damage roll with a free action.
Personally, if you wanted to use a free action between the attack role and the damage role at my table, I would ask you to show me in the rules where it says you can do that.
While it might not be the answer you are looking for, I hope it helps.
A free action is a smaller expenditure of effort than an immediate action, therefore this should be a legal move in combat, when utilizing combat style master, it is most likely a legal move without it, but only once per turn.
Unfortunately a lot of people make the assumption that any action that takes a smaller amount of effort can be substituted for any action that takes more effort, ie a move action can be swapped out for an extra swift or immediate action. That is not the case. Each character is only allowed a single swift action that renews at the end of their turn. They can use an immediate action at anytime during the round but it uses their swift action for that round.
So being able to use a swift action to accomplish a free action is against the rules. As would be trying to give up a move action to gain an extra swift action during the round.
Otherwise, someone could cast a spell as a standard action, a quickened spell as a swift action, and then use a move action to get another swift action and cast another quickened spell. That is not possible.
I only bring it up as it does not allow us to draw extrapolations from feats or abilities that use swift or immediate actions in this specific question.
As Nefreet pointed out you are inferring from a few listed abilities that that is how things normally work. If that was how it normally worked it would not have to be specified in the ability.
Removing those example abilities, and other special abilities that have similar wording, can you find any other evidence to support your argument?
Because I promise you, the abilities you have found are special abilities which provide the capability to do something between the attack and damage rolls that you normally could not.
I don't undersatnd how you can be so obtuse as to not understand what we are saying. You are making an assumption about the general rules because of how a few specific abilities are worded. You can't do that. Specific rules of abilities trump the general rules.
If none of those abilities were worded such as they are would you still think that you could use any abilities between the attack and damage rolls?
Those abilities are exceptions to how the rules normally function.
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I use this very feat combo with my monk. I think the OP is delving into uncertain rules where it's not necessary. The way I do it is only a -1 to hit, assuming Crane Riposte is taken.
Here's my sequence I've been using.
Begin Turn
Free Action - Dragon Style
Declare fighting defensively
Make attack(s) with dragon style applied.
Free action after attacks switch to Crane style
End turn
Ends up being -1 to attacks with dragon style and ending round in crane style.
I use this very feat combo with my monk. I think the OP is delving into uncertain rules where it's not necessary. The way I do it is only a -1 to hit, assuming Crane Riposte is taken.
Here's my sequence I've been using.
Begin Turn
Free Action - Dragon Style
Declare fighting defensively
Make attack(s) with dragon style applied.
Free action after attacks switch to Crane style
End turnEnds up being -1 to attacks with dragon style and ending round in crane style.
Thats not what he wants to do though. He wants to:
Begin turn
Free action - Crane Style
Make attack (while fighting defensively)
Free action - Dragon Style
Roll Damage
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I use this very feat combo with my monk. I think the OP is delving into uncertain rules where it's not necessary. The way I do it is only a -1 to hit, assuming Crane Riposte is taken.
Here's my sequence I've been using.
Begin Turn
Free Action - Dragon Style
Declare fighting defensively
Make attack(s) with dragon style applied.
Free action after attacks switch to Crane style
End turnEnds up being -1 to attacks with dragon style and ending round in crane style.
Thats not what he wants to do though. He wants to:
Begin turn
Free action - Crane Style
Make attack (while fighting defensively)
Free action - Dragon Style
Roll Damage
I know, I was just suggesting an alternative that accomplishes the same thing without going into questionable rule mechanics.
I know, I was just suggesting an alternative that accomplishes the same thing without going into questionable rule mechanics.
The problem is that he thinks he will take a greater attack penalty. He doesn't realize that Crane Style feat reduces the penalty to fight defensively without actively using the style.
Though the feat also only reduces the penalty by two to -2, not the -1 he stated. Though I think there is something else that allows for further reduction that he is including.
Actually i am just asking for the true clarification.
I realize that many people concluded that Crane Ripost first bonus is "always active" and dont require Crane Stance. I realize that 99% of the tables would allow me do do this "easier way".
But by RAW there's little problem:
UC pg. 78
Under Style Feats, second paragraph, third sentence:
"You can only use a feat that has style feat as prerequisite only while in the stance of the associated style."
I dont know if this was changed, but my version of UC(like 3 months old), says that.
The sentence in each feat stating "While in xxx stance..." is just redundant.
Thats the problem.
I read the other threads that came to the conclusion that you only take -1 with riposte even in other stances, but they ignored that sentence above. There was an official ruling changing that?
Thats one of the problems.
A free action is a smaller expenditure of effort than an immediate action, therefore this should be a legal move in combat, when utilizing combat style master, it is most likely a legal move without it, but only once per turn.Unfortunately a lot of people make the assumption that any action that takes a smaller amount of effort can be substituted for any action that takes more effort, ie a move action can be swapped out for an extra swift or immediate action. That is not the case. Each character is only allowed a single swift action that renews at the end of their turn. They can use an immediate action at anytime during the round but it uses their swift action for that round.
So being able to use a swift action to accomplish a free action is against the rules. As would be trying to give up a move action to gain an extra swift action during the round.
Otherwise, someone could cast a spell as a standard action, a quickened spell as a swift action, and then use a move action to get another swift action and cast another quickened spell. That is not possible.
I only bring it up as it does not allow us to draw extrapolations from feats or abilities that use swift or immediate actions in this specific question.
Only one swift action is allowed per round though, so your proposal of 3 quickened spells doesn't work. The swift action rules I quoted specifically state that, and the free action rules specifically state that you can make multiple free actions at any point during your turn, are you saying that my character cannot make a noise, or say anything while striking a target.
Rules as written state any immediate/swift action is more effort than a swift action, the abilities he brought up say that the action can be performed as an immediate action, there for it is less effort to shift his style than to perform the actions he brought up.|
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Actually i am just asking for the true clarification.
I realize that many people concluded that Crane Ripost first bonus is "always active" and dont require Crane Stance. I realize that 99% of the tables would allow me do do this "easier way".
But by RAW there's little problem:
UC pg. 78
Under Style Feats, second paragraph, third sentence:
"You can only use a feat that has style feat as prerequisite only while in the stance of the associated style."
I dont know if this was changed, but my version of UC(like 3 months old), says that.
The sentence in each feat stating "While in xxx stance..." is just redundant.
Thats the problem.
I read the other threads that came to the conclusion that you only take -1 with riposte even in other stances, but they ignored that sentence above. There was an official ruling changing that?
Thats one of the problems.
I believe the general consensus is that some style feats have passive benefits not requiring to be in the style to gain them. And since there has been no official FAQ response for this, I think it's as intended. This would mean the "while using XXXX style..." is not redundant.
Now it makes sense to think, if your interpretation was correct, that unless you're actually in crane style, crane riposte wouldn't give you the extra bonus to hit when fighting defensively. What about Crane style's bonus to hit while fighting defensively? It doesn't have a style feat as a prerequisite so would it necessarily apply for the requirement of being in the stance for RAW on page 78?
Then the question becomes, how does that apply to other style feats with similar wording, or text before the "while using XXXXX style...". Let's look at Dragon Roar for example.
Dragon Roar (Combat)
The spirit of the dragon wells up inside you and bursts
forth in a mighty roar.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon
Style, Stunning Fist, Acrobatics 8 ranks.
Benefit: You gain one additional Stunning Fist attempt
per day. While using Dragon Style, as a standard action
you can expend two Stunning Fist attempts to unleash a
concussive roar in a 15-foot cone. Creatures caught in the
cone take your unarmed strike damage and become shaken
for 1d4 rounds. A successful Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 your
character level + your Wis modifier) reduces the damage by
half and prevents a target from being shaken.
Special: If you have the Elemental Fist feat (Advanced
Player’s Guide 158), you can expend a daily use of that feat
to deal your Elemental Fist damage to those caught in the
cone. This damage is not halved even on a save.
Does it make sense to say you only get that additional Stunning Fist when you're in Dragon Style and you lose it when you end the style? Could you technically gain another use of Stunning Fist every time you enter Dragon Style with Dragon Roar?
Good point, thats why i think a clarification is in order. It would not take more than 5 minutes of a Dev and would make everyone happy.
Hit the Faq button and help me :)
Does it make sense to say you only get that additional Stunning Fist when you're in Dragon Style and you lose it when you end the style? Could you technically gain another use of Stunning Fist every time you enter Dragon Style with Dragon Roar?
No. It works like gaining additional uses of channelling through temporary cha boosts. You compare how many times you've done X today against the total number of times you can do X. The number of times you've already done X increments each time you do X. The number that you CAN do X goes up by one when you enter Dragon Style and falls back by one when you leave Dragon Style.
So assuming I can Stunning Fist twice a day, I start out at 0:2 (number of times I have SF'd today:number of times a day I can SF)
0:2
I attempt to use Stunning Fist. 0 < 2, so I can make the attempt.
1:2
I enter Dragon Style.
1:3
I attempt to use Stunning Fist. 1<3, so I can make the attempt.
2:3
I leave Dragon Style.
2:2
I attempt to use Stunning Fist. 2!<2, I cannot use SF as I am out of uses.
I enter Dragon Style.
2:3
I attempt to use Stunning Fist. 2<3, so I can make the attempt.
3:3
I leave Dragon Style.
3:2
I attempt to use Stunning Fist. 3!<2, I cannot use SF as I am out of uses.
I enter Dragon Style.
3:3
I attempt to use Stunning Fist. 3!<3, I cannot use SF as I am out of uses.
i can't believe this is a serious question.
It is and to be honest is much harder to answer without official clarification than most questions i see at the forum daily.
Unless you take for granted things that are not granted by any means on the combat system. Read above.
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no it isnt. the answer is you can't, and it's quite obvious why. I'm sorry it is not a hard question, and there is no need for clarification because there is really nothing to be confused about on this issue.
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No. It works like gaining additional uses of channelling through temporary cha boosts. You compare how many times you've done X today against the total number of times you can do X. The number of times you've already done X increments each time you do X. The number that you CAN do X goes up by one when you enter Dragon Style and falls back by one when you leave Dragon Style.
I don't think it works like that. Plus you only get the channel boost if the the bonus becomes permanent, 24 hours. The first 24 hours it's a temporary score bonus and only applies to skills and statistics for the relevant ability. Plus, this isn't even an ability, it's a feat.
If is quite obvious, feel free to link any ruling from any book or any dev blog/faq explaining why.
Obvious is something within the rules and free actions and triggers arent that obvious.
This is a game system, and the intent of combat style master is to combine styles, as described in its flavor text, the rules by itself are very unclear where you can take free actions. There is no rule saying that free actions cant be taken after an attack roll, as many are triggered by this event, and the exception to general rule doesnt apply... why? because there is NO general rule about it! If there were a general rule then the actions you can take after an attack roll would be exceptions, but since there is no general rule, there is no exception.
People ASSUME there is a general rule, nothing in the system says so.
Thats why clarifications are made. To complement points that the original game design left unclear.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
If nothing else, this is your answer right here.
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I don't think it works like that. Plus you only get the channel boost if the the bonus becomes permanent, 24 hours. The first 24 hours it's a temporary score bonus and only applies to skills and statistics for the relevant ability. Plus, this isn't even an ability, it's a feat.No. It works like gaining additional uses of channelling through temporary cha boosts. You compare how many times you've done X today against the total number of times you can do X. The number of times you've already done X increments each time you do X. The number that you CAN do X goes up by one when you enter Dragon Style and falls back by one when you leave Dragon Style.
The FAQ that was released a couple months ago states to treat such temporary stat boosts as though they were permanent boosts for calculating all abilities, including things like #/day of Channel Energy.
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Attack Roll
An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your
opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an
attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other
modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result
equals or beats the target’s Armor Class, you hit and deal damage.
Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes
up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20
comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a
possible critical hit (see the attack action on page 182).
Damage
If your attack succeeds, you deal damage. The type of
weapon used determines the amount of damage you deal.
Damage reduces a target’s current hit points.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions
while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
given the above rules we can see that YES, you CAN take a free action while attacking, at any point during the attack.
HOWEVER, because there is no distinguishable difference between attack and damage as actions (they are the same thing), if you choose to activate the free action you take either has to happen before or after you roll both dice rolls because by the rules both are the same thing...technically speaking, its perfectly legal to roll your damage before you roll your attack. nothing in the rules specifies which roll must be made first.
if you take the rule on free actions by complete RAW, then attempting to change styles the way you are asking about, you would HAVE to declare the free action AS you rolled the dice.
because there is no difference between attack rolls and damage rolls (because they happen at the same time) the damage has already been rolled before you change styles, or if it hasn't been rolled yet, neither has the attack...see where i'm going with this?
unless you can show me something else in the rules that states these two dice rolls are mutually exclusive, then i (and everyone else here) has no choice but to come to the conclusion that they are one-in-the-same.
ohh, and before you try to bring up something like Arcane edge (the magus arcana) again, lets look at it for a sec:
Arcane Edge (Su)
Prerequisite: Magus 9Benefit: The magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as an immediate action after hitting a target with a slashing or piercing weapon in order to deal an amount of bleed damage equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 0).
this does NOT happen before damage is rolled....it happens AFTER, then it tacks on a little bit more....of a different type....Prescient Defense is the same thing - it happens after damage is dealt.
the Kensai's Perfect Strike is a little different because it says "don't roll for Damage", but it still doesn't happen BEFORE damage, because all it is doing is changing one number in the total equation, so even if you HAD rolled damage, it still changes whatever that roll was to its maximum. the damage still happened before you chose to do this, it just hadn't been tallied up and totaled yet (which is an out of game/metagame action anyway) (rolling dice. for that matter, is also an out of game/metagame action as well)
The use of free action between attack and damage roll is possible. Not only, I believe the game was design in this idea, or feats as "Inexplicable Luck" should never be used in critical confirmation rolls.
feats like 'Inexplicable Luck' are used before a hit is determined, so while technically you are right that this happens between the attack and damage rolls, you still are forgetting that its also not an action that your character makes, its one that YOU, the player, make. nothing about inexplicable luck suggests that its a conscious decision by the character. there are MANY feats and abilities that use the characters actions that are not actually character actions, but instead player actions that cost the character action economy.