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On a similar note, does anyone have any rules made up for creating spaces that are larger on the inside than on the outside? Spells to use and pricing would be nice. I'm mainly trying to figure out balance.


Turin the Mad wrote:
Depends on the actual cash available. I'd go for a magnificent mansion (discounted for being part of a mere wagon) as the starting point of the DeLux Adventuring WagonTM.

I find myself with about 10k that I don't know what to do with. We just finally got a chance to sell accumulated loot from several levels worth of slaying. My GM suggested that I look at the stronghold builder's guide and use the wagon as half a stronghold space for making it bigger inside. Beyond that having everything hover seems like a good idea as we're traveling over broken terrain in Ustalav. Oh, and being hunted by wererats, aberrations, undead gypsies, and fallen paladins.


I've considered making it and the horses levitate, but I figured there might be more practical stuff to set up first. Like fold out wings or a land mine dropper.


Well, it's reached that time in the campaign. My character has more money than he knows what to do with and is getting creative. Specifically I'm planning on building the party a mobile base. I'm looking at basing it off the wagon stats but what would you all recommend I add to it to a: make it somewhat more survivable, b: make it able to carry all that loot that otherwise we'd need a portable hole or bags of holding for, and c: make it just a cool item to have in game?

So far I'm considering finding an extra-dimensional space modification to make it bigger on the inside than on the outside, and throwing a turret mounted ballista on top. I may have stabilizers I drop to fire said ballista.


We recently had a situation come up in game where my wizard cast flaming sphere from a scroll. He rolled it over a troll who then had to make a reflex save. My question becomes what is the save DC since I don't know the INT score of the wizard who wrote it? Does it use my INT score, or the minimum int score needed to cast a second level spell (12)?


I've always been a little worried about devices like bags of holding and any sort of dimensional travel. As far as I can tell the major problem is overlapping two items that tap the astral plane. So what happens to your bag of holding if you go to the astral? Also what happens if you enter a pocket dimension? Currently it could be ruled either way for both.


Personally I'd go with arcane and divine variants. Arcane healing is a rather rare ability. I'd also imagine that the magical mechanics behind an arcane cure lt and a divine cure lt would be quite different, one being channeling a deity's power and the other however it is that bards can heal and wizards can't figure out.


I've been looking over the spells and it looks like the ones I would need are the ones that access other planes etc. I don't think that for example tiny hut would work well here since it's a force evocation rather than opening a door to another place. But if there are holes in my reasoning I'd be glad to back off. Building these things is going to be a pain.


We have our bags of holding, and our portable holes. This is well and good. I can even see increasing the portable hole to have say, a door that opens nowhere in the house, but into another room (though no air circulation mitigates this a bit). But what about the character who wants to magically alter a space to be bigger on the inside than on the outside. Say, a caravan that is 8'x4' on the outside, but say, 16'x8' on the inside.

What I'm looking for are spells that could power this affect and possible complications of actually having one (bag of holding + portable hole = boom). Any thoughts?


I see 6 potential moves:
Cleric Domains
Sorcerer Bloodlines
Arcane School Specialization
Channel Energy
Animal Companion
Familiars

Personally I feel that the abilities linked to a specific class should be listed with that class. No other class in the main book has access to Domains, Bloodlines or School Specialization. These should be listed with the classes. I don't see any problem with the spell schools being linked to wizards because in the Magic chapter spell schools are well detailed.

Energy Channeling, Animal Companions, and Familiars are all shared across classes. I'd like to see these grouped under their own heading at the end of the class chapter. Alternately all of the listed conflicts could be moved. No this doesn't unbloat the classes chapter but it is the most logical and accessible place to put them in my mind.


I'm a big fan of researching new spells. For example a member of my group is focusing her spells in the electricity direction and the DM has let her study electrical variants of spells. For her this ends up being both a flavor issue and actually a limiter since she has few spells that are not electrical based ready.

Reasons to allow:
Wizards especially are big on the research and intelligence end of spellcasting. They study and "Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each
time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook." (Beta Playtest 166) This implies that they are coming up with the spells on their own (even if they do already know it's possible).

The existing spells are often generic and open to multiple uses. This appeals to most players, but perhaps a limited application (especially of the utility spells) of a spell at a potentially lower level or higher caster level might appeal.

The current body of spells is large, but there will always be a specific effect that it does not contain. Unique spells created through research would fill this gap.

Reasons to not allow:
Potential for game breaking if the DM does not set appropriate limits (level, saves, spell resistance, etc.)

Loss of class or nature (divine vs arcane) specific abilities. Some things should either not be able to be cast by a sorc/wiz (for example) or be prohibitively expensive in terms of level or effect to cast. There are reasons that different classes have access to the same spell at different levels.

Want to poke holes in my logic? In my opinion if spells can be researched some cost or limits being built into the system would be helpful even if the power limits end up being with the DM (much as with item creation).


I've personally never taken a spell caster with metamagic feats because of the level adjustments. I like that they are feats because otherwise you start toward all spellcasters being alike. It should be a fresh and interesting thing to have a wizard who can maximize his magic missile.

That being said the level adjustments and rarity of feats combined makes it prohibitive to have even one of these. To use Maximize as an example, a spellcaster can't even use it until he's six levels higher than the level he was when he got the spell he wants to cast. A Maximized magic missile can't be cast until 7th level, while a Maximized fireball can't be cast until 11th.

Now this is not to say that I want free metamagic, that would be rather game breaking. I just think that the level adjusts places too much of a dual burden on the caster. Not only can they not cast for several levels after they get the spell, it takes up very rare slots. Those in and of themselves are almost enough to provide a limiting factor which brings me to the next point.

Your alternatives (as they now stand) are to take the sudden metamagics and be able to do them once a day. This sounds good in theory, but remember that as the character levels low level spells can be cast more often with the metamagics than higher level while the suddens don't scale.

A house rule I'm experimenting with is to increase this to 3/day. This I feel gives the caster a degree of flexibility as well as limiting their power.

Note: Eschew Materials is available as a feat, should the other spell components also be available as feats (Silent, Still, and Focus?)


I was going through my spells today and noticed that Grease has Spell Resistance abbreviated as SR. Is this intentional or something that got missed in the edit?


Immora wrote:
I've actually been working on some updates to the D20 Modern classes and Talent myself for a while, and the project is starting to take on a life of it's own now. I could post my re-vamped Smart Hero here if anyone is interested (it'll have to wait until I can get home, though).

I'd love to see anything you have on revamping the d20 system. I think with a few minor tweaks, and one or two major ones *cough* wealth system *cough* it could easily be improved.


Cato Novus wrote:

I think you have a problem with your Trivia Talent. I could be mistaken, I don't have my books with me tonight. The reason being(if I remember correctly) is that anyone can attempt a check on an untrained Knowledge skill, although they're only capable of knowing something with a DC of 10 or lower, which is considered common knowledge.

I checked the rules here and we're both right. The skill is trained only, but without the knowledge skill it's just an int roll, which this would end up being. I'm just trying to keep the talent balanced by not adding more of a bump to the skill. Perhaps this is offset by the limited number of times per day?


I'm having a similar problem. I created a thread yesterday and can't reply or add anything to it. I have tried logging out and back in. I'm currently using Firefox 3.0.3. Strangely enough I can post in this thread.


I've been playing several games of D20 Modern recently and it seems to me that the core classes are not well balanced. Most (combatant) characters cherry pick fast and tough until they're ready to go off into an advanced class. Dedicated seems to be a decent enough class and charismatic works well for social. That leaves strong with an ok set of talents and smart.

The smart hero talents feel like they're lacking in application so here's four of my own for review. Any other game balance suggestions for the core classes would be welcome as well.

Cobble - The Smart hero can assemble a working device with only the most basic tools and materials. The device will function 1d6 (secret DM roll) times at 25% less effectiveness than a standard device of that type. It does not look pretty and will spark alarmingly if appropriate.

Prerequisites - Savant (choosing the appropriate craft skill) or five ranks in the appropriate craft skill.

Trivia - The Smart hero has a wide range of seemingly useless facts. These are represented by one rank in three separate knowledge skills, enough to perform a check as trained.

Encyclopedic Knowledge - The Smart hero has a deep understanding of a subject. He can make one Knowledge at five ranks higher than he has the skill or Research check per day using only memorized facts based on one knowledge score.

Prerequisites - Savant (choosing the knowledge skill used for the check) or five ranks in the appropriate
knowledge.

Intuit function - The Smart hero has an understanding of the workings of machines. If he can disassemble the machine far enough to see it's inner workings he can analyze it and use the basic functions (fire a strange weapon, turn on/off a machine, drive/fly a strange vehicles, etc.). This applies to alien or other technology no more than 2 PL's higher than the character's.

Prerequisites - Savant (choosing the appropriate craft skill), Knowledge Technology (7) or Craft (5) in the appropriate field.