Is everyone OK with the level adjustments of metamagic feats? Do they work OK for you?
Some examples:
Maximzie a Cure Light Wounds, and you use a level 4 slot to heal 1d8(8) + 5 HP. Total 13 HP.
Cast a Cure Critical Wounds and you use a level 4 slot to heal 4d8 + 7 (or more). Total 11-39, averaging 25 HP.
OK, so not the best example.
Maximzie a Cure Serious Wounds, and you use a level 6 slot to heal 3d8(24) + 11 (minimum) HP. Total 35 HP.
Cast a Heal spell and you use a level 6 slot to heal up to 150 HP (or has the limit changed, no book on hand to check - but it's surely way more than 35 HP).
Maximize a Fireball and you use a level 6 slot to inflict 10d6(60) HP in a 20' spread.
How many other level 6 spells (or even level 5) can you find that offer more damage over a larger area than a maximized fireball in the same slot?
Empower is no different; the benefit you gain for the +2 level adjustment just doesn't compare to the actual spells of that level.
Sure, some other metamagic feats make a little more sense, like Quicken - it can be a complete life saver and/or a game breaker with the right spell in the right situation, but it is prohibitively expensive at +4 levels for the use of just dropping a second evocation spell duruing a single round of combat.
Without going into the whole list, my general feeling is that almost every metamagic feat not cost-effective. A spellcaster can get more bank for his spell-slot buck by simply preparing the appropriately leveled spells in that slot.
Anyone have any similar thoughts (or counterarguments)?
And no, don't bring up metamagic rods, because they circumvent the level adjustment no matter if the adjustment is +1 or +50.
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Maximzie a Cure Serious Wounds, and you use a level 6 slot to heal 3d8(24) + 11 (minimum) HP. Total 35 HP.
Cast a Heal spell and you use a level 6 slot to heal up to 150 HP (or has the limit changed, no book on hand to check - but it's surely way more than 35 HP).
An interesting point. No real thoughts on this, but here is an optional rule:
Burn up 'level adjustment' levels of other spells to apply a metamagic feat on the fly. Useful for when you need some high damage spells but only have fireball and some other low-level stuff left.
Or take temporary CON damage to do so.
I have considered fixing this with feats. Such as a feat that reduces the total metamagic level adjustment by 1. Maybe an improved version that reduces by 2 (not stacked), but only when two metamagic feats are applied.
So a caster could go this way, taking one feat to be able to empower for +1 slot, maximize for +2 slots, and quicken for +3. Feats like Silent, Still, etc. become +0 slots but still require the full round.
Then he could get the improved feat that lets him cast, say, an empowered, maximized fireball at only +3 slots, but just empowered would still be +1 and just maximized would still be +2. Or a stilled, silent spell for only +1 slot.
That might bring them into line.
Unfortunately, all it represents is a "feat tax" on any spellcaster who wants worthwhile metamagic options. Some casters might forego these feats, but then it's very likely they will forego even taking any metamagic feat at all. But the ones who want to use metamagic will always have to take these feats, which really means that they are essentially "taxed" a number of feats in order to make metamagic worthwhile.
Maybe what would be better is to work it into the basic rules for for all spellcasters. If your caster level is 9+ you can deduct 1 from the total metamagic level adjustment. At 17+, you can deduct 2 if you apply at least two metamagic feats.
Maximzie a Cure Serious Wounds, and you use a level 6 slot to heal 3d8(24) + 11 (minimum) HP. Total 35 HP.
Cast a Heal spell and you use a level 6 slot to heal up to 150 HP (or has the limit changed, no book on hand to check - but it's surely way more than 35 HP).
An interesting point. No real thoughts on this, but here is an optional rule:
Burn up 'level adjustment' levels of other spells to apply a metamagic feat on the fly. Useful for when you need some high damage spells but only have fireball and some other low-level stuff left.
Or take temporary CON damage to do so.
I'm not sure casters would appreciate burning up a Haste to maximize their Fireball. Wouldn't that have a similar net effect of losing slots (overall spell power) to achieve a minor improvement on one spell?
It might work, but without further modification, the same question still stands: Are the level adjustments appropriate for the benefits of the metamagic feats?
Maybe burning up a Web spell to maximize a Fireball might be more worthwhile?
And as for CON damage, yeowch! That takes us closer to the 15-minute adventuring day, but threatens to put us into a 15-minute adventuring week if we're not careful. Or forces the poor healer to load up on Restoration spells (which also might break the general idea in the first place if a cleric could toss around a few Empowered heals then Restore his lost CON).
Hmmm, not getting much play.
At the risk of a selfish bump, I would like to make it clear that I am inviting supporters, dissenters, and arguers, too.
:)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Hmmm, not getting much play.
At the risk of a selfish bump, I would like to make it clear that I am inviting supporters, dissenters, and arguers, too.
:)
I've never been a fan of Metamagic Feats like Maximise or Empower for the reasons you state. Bumping a spell up by x levels into a y level spell generally still comes out as an inferior spell to a straight spell of y level.
The Sudden series of Metamagic Feats mitigates this somewhat, but they are only useable once per day and for the most part require other Metamagic Feats as prerequisites anyway.
I have similar sentiments, but approach it from a different angle:
Given the generally sub-optimal value of Metamagicked Spells vs. Actual Spell Level Equivalents,
why is necessary to spend a Feat for the Metamagic Ability in the first place?
I've pointed this out in regards to HEIGTEN SPELL, which provides no benefit beyond raising the Saving Throw. If the Feats were dropped, allowing anybody to use a Metamagic if they have sufficient Spell Levels, it at least will be used in the situations where it's found of benefit, and we don't have to "make" it useful in ALL situations in order to be "worth" the Feat investment.
Honestly, I think the Sorceror is the Caster most motivated to use Metamagic:
Because they have fewer Spells Known, their ability to cover the full range of spells AT ALL LEVELS is very hampered (Spell Re-Training helps with this). For a Sorceror, putting under-used but still usefull Spell Types on lower-level Spells Known slots, and Metamagicking them up IF NECCESARY, is a half-decent way to maximize their breadth and power.
(Spellpoints for ONLY Sorcerors (and Favored Souls) would be a GREAT individuator that would make this strategy work even better, but doubt it will make it to Core Pathfinder).
First of all, make the intuitive leap that a spell that employs metamagic should be roughly equal to a spell of the same level that employs the same effect.
This is generally true. A Chained Lightning bolt is generally equal to Chain Lightning...except Chain Lightning, being actually a higher level spell, has a higher save DC and dmg potential.
Ditto effects like Empower, which mimic the dmg dice raise of spells two levels higher, but still lack the higher save DC's. A Twinned Spell should effectively be the same dmg wise as a spell 4 levels higher, and this generally holds true...Delayed Blast Fireballs max out at 20 dice, right?
So, metamagic should be a logical way of lifting a lower level spell to a higher level slot. Perhaps this is how magic used to work, and higher level slots came when you were able to apply a Heighten to the modified spell, and make it a spell of that slot, instead of actually applying it.
But! It's obvious that there is power being wasted. Since you put a Chained Lightning Bolt in the same slot as Chain Lightning, but the latter IS more powerful, that means less energy is used with the Metamagic spell. That's the justification for reducing the energy cost, or the +LA. You simply become more efficient at allocating the energy, so that it takes up a lower slot. Too, it also signifies that you might be better at GATHERING energy, able to acquire more power with the feat and put more power on the spell then was previously available. I.e. not only can you gather in more magic, you can apply it better.
Thus, metamagic efficiency is born. If you modify Heighten, it explains the whole spell level system as the 'least efficient, simplest spell forms' of a particular spell level, or spells that are 'quick fits' into a spell level.
The main power with such stuff is whether or not you can break the system. Metamagic efficiency is neccessary to make direct dmg builds viable, but the addition of feats which bypass dmg types means that with enough metamagic feats and efficiency, direct dmg becomes a one-shot, one-type save or die effect (get the dmg high enough, and if they fail, they are toast). You can get around AC, Saves, and dmg immunities with the right spell selection, too.
In the end, metamagic is there so you can make more efficient use of lower level spell slots, and apply effects on the fly to spells which would never normally have them....Twin, Delay, Bane spells, sacred or evil spells, and the like. There should be a reward for higher level slots over lower ones, and that is generally the higher dmg caps and saves...else people would just prefer to meta up low level spells and not use higher level ones.
==Aelryinth
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The core metamagic mechanic in their current form, feats and with spell level adjustments, make them unpalatable for spellcasters to make any real use of. There is very little to gain from the expenditure of using metamagic. It has been this way all through 3e.
The only time I have ever seen metamagic feats used at all is via the Sudden Metamagic feats and the Spontaneous Metamagic variant in the 3e Unearthed Arcana book.
The Spontaneous Metamagic variant allowed the use of metamagic feats to modify spells on the fly 3/day with no change in spell level or extended casting time and restricted to use with spells the caster would normally be able to cast if they were using the spell level adjustment.
I wouldn't house rule the Sudden Metamagic feats to 3/day as these feats allow use with a caster's highest level spells and so should remain at 1/day use.
I'm using the the spontaneous metamagic from Unearthed Arcana since some years, and it worked well. Players enjoy them like this, and use them every session. And I enjoy them too as DM for my NPCs. And it's a very simple rule.
I've been using the metamagic feats as they stand now both with and without the metamagic mastery that universialist currently get.
The ones I generally pick up from core are:
Extend spell, Still spell, silent spell, and quicken spell.
The extend spell gets little use at higher levels, but at any caster level 10 and below it has been rather nice. Generally I'll place a few spells as either still or silent for either surprise situations where I might like to remain hidden, or so that if my wizard gets paralyzed I can expend one metamagic mastery to have a still silent spell to cast still. Metamagic mastery has also been use to quicken resilient sphere on myself fairly often too (or for quickening a summons). Ocassionally I'll prepare a quickened PoE, or Haste spell to help the party out at the start of an encounter... I find that the extra movement speed alone can make a great difference.
Other low level spells that tend to get quickened are: Grease, Shield, Ray of Enfeeblement, Resist Energy, Glitterdust, web, and other useful spells I might like to cast while not eating up a standard action.
We've been running into anywhere from 3~5 fights a day in game, but I've found I generally have enough spells to see me through all of them. I tend to try and use multi round spells (summons for example) or magic items like a ring of telekinesis or ring of blink to supplement my spells per day.
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Please Note: I'm not saying this to detract from the above points... in general I agree that metamagic isn't quite right yet. I am merely pointing out which metamagics I use, and how I use them as a player that does use them, which I hope helps show where metamagic might be "right" already and how it can be improved without taking it beyond "the edge".