Paladin

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Organized Play Member. 402 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character.


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WWHsmackdown wrote:
I'm not a fan of moral relativism, neither in ttrpgs nor in real life. Seeing the holy/unholy paradigm in the remaster brought a smile to my face bc it seems like a stronger more definitive judgement call than what came before. Some forces want to be selfish and harm others, other forces want to be selfless and aid others. These qualities define those that either likened to literal devil's and demons or likened to literal angels. That was a STRONG statement and I'm all here for it.

This is exactly how I feel about Pathfinder and real life, but honestly didn’t want to wade into these discussions on a thread like this. Thanks for articulating it charitably WWHsmackdown.

Back to the blog! I’m looking forward to seeing the new feats for level 2, since Oath feats are pulled from the book. Level 2 needed some love. Also, my guess is that “Defensive Advance” is the Champion equivalent of the Lastwall Knight’s Level 12 “Guarded Advance”. But if it’s lower level, I’m fine with that!


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Interesting direction. I’m looking forward to seeing the final product. But I have two general questions: (one major, one minor)
1. The minor. Will you be dropping the word Paladin from the document?
2. The major. There’s no mention of whether Champion’s Reactions are tied to Causes. What’s happened to the Reactions? Are only Champions of Justice able to Retributive Strike? (for example…) Or are the Reactions decoupled from the Causes?


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I’m in full favour of this. Locking enemies down so that they must deal with the Guardian is a fun playstyle for me. I’d rather have that than Taunt as the class feature. Plus no easy MC dipping…


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Perpdepog wrote:
Lightning Raven wrote:
WWHsmackdown wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Perpdepog wrote:
I'm thinking we'll be seeing more spirit damage like we see in the champion errata.
Man, I really hope not. The champion errata spirit damage doesn't work like 90% of spirit damage in the remaster, and is worse than the old alignment damage was too. If Paizo actually prints that I'll be sorely disappointed.
Are you saying remaster spirit damage is a bad system or errata champion spirit damage in particular is bad?
Unlike normal Spirit damage, which was a buff for these kinds of spells because they work with any living (and adjacent) creature, the Champion's features that grant spirit damage only work against the same creature types it did as before and the Sanctified creatures, that are a bit different than before. If they had the LE/NE/CE Tag, you would gain the extra benefits against, now they need to be sanctified, which isn't a given anymore (although it's still expected against extraplanar beings).

So, I know it's been a bit, but I was looking at champion errata today, and I can't find where it says this, at least for the champion's reactions. They seem to just do spirit damage. It says the damage is a holy/unholy effect, but I don't think that should matter; it's still damaging your enemy, unless I've misunderstood something somewhere?

I do see where some feats got way more narrow, and that sucks. Hopefully that will get changed.

The discussion was more focused on the feats rather than the features. When it came to the Champion’s Reaction and its related abilities, the Remaster was a big buff. But to certain feats… not so much.


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Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
Soulsight allows the same defence that sight does: it says that it doesn't penetrate solid objects, meaning that you can hide behind cover. Presumably the equivalent of concealment would be trying to see one soul in a crowd of them, or maybe a large haunt would partially obscure creatures within its area.

Ok, that’s a great point. But I’m more thinking about the Shape Changed Demon or Deceptive Undead standing right in front of you. Like I’ve come across a few times in adventures or modules where you interact with an NPC who is secretly a Succubus. (for instance) Does the Champion automatically “sense” that something is ‘off’ about the NPC? I would be ok with that, because they invested into the niche feat. But others might not…


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Dwarfinator1 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I don't think the Guardian is there to step on the Champion's toes as a defender/tank class, I think it's there for people who want to play a defender/tank style class without any particular moral underpinnings.

Like my playtest Guardian character is going to be a proud son or daughter of Rahadoum.

I know this is somewhat blasphemy here but I hope with the rework I'm gonna be able to be a good smitey vengeance Paladin like in 5e. Not really an option for that kind of character atm which makes me sad.

I’m wondering if one of the Unholy Champions will be able to fit that design space in PC2.


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I’ve been thinking about Blade of Justice and how I would like to see it changed. I’d like to see it changed to a more generic Champion’s Divine Power Attack with goodies.
Give it the Sanctified Trait, and get rid of the fluff. Let the Strike always deal two extra dice. If the target is the opposite Sanctification, then you can convert all the damage into spirit damage. (Or keep it as it is) And if you are a Paladin or an Antipaladin, the Strike applies all effects that normally apply on their Champion’s Reaction.
Paladins and Antipaladins are the only Causes that make sense to add the effects of their Reaction. All the while giving the Antipaladin some needed shine. (Choosing who gets the extra damage from Destructive Vengeance, extra persistent spirit damage and an AoE effect on their allies within 15 feet)


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When the Champion errata came out for Remaster, I was overly optimistic about the changes. I came to appreciate Captain Morgan’s grounding comments on a thread like this one. So, Here are some of my thoughts on Champions in general when it comes to spirit damage/holy&unholy and what direction Paizo might go: (this’ll apply to both Holy & Unholy Champions)
The feats that got nerfed in the errata (IMO) are: Smite Evil/Good, Sense Evil/Good, Aura of Faith, Blade of Justice, Aura of Righteousness(?), Sacred Defender. The two big nerfs are the Smites and Aura of Faith. The list is very short now for what a Champion can Smite. (Fiends & most Undead for Holy, Celestials for Unholy, then a few outliers for both) So to fix that either Paizo will keep the feat’s numbers the same and give it a “Smite Anything” feel, or boost the damage numbers for such a niche feat. While for Aura of Faith, they’ll have to open that up more to perhaps you and your allies deal 1 spirit damage that has the holy/unholy trait in the aura.
The Sense feats can probably stay as is, but maybe give it a precise sense for the niche. Blade of Justice, I’m not sure what to do with… Aura of Righteousness may actually be better now, because that resistance applies to every type of damage from a fiend. Not just the evil damage.(Am I wrong here?) Sacred Defender should be broadened or given resistance 10 to all damage from a holy/unholy creature.
Lastly, I’d like to highlight the fact of how the errata buffed Divine Smite. Which I appreciate the change.


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I want to add another hearty “thank you” to the Paizo team. I appreciate your hard work and am thankful for your wonderful product.


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WWHsmackdown wrote:
All this divine war has me REALLY curious what the champion rework looks like. Is the guardian eating one or two bits of the old champions lunch bc it's been rejiggered or is the champion pretty much the same with the alignment themed causes remaining but we just focus on "tenets" instead and wink at the crowd...

I’m very curious as well, but I don’t see Paizo “rejiggering” the Champion that much…

Personally, I’d love to see the class lean more into a more Unholy slaying niche, but I still love the “I want to protect my friends” theme as well. So I can go either way. Tho at present I am concerned about the Guardian stealing the Champion’s thunder, but I trust Paizo… (and I’ll voice any concerns I have in the Playtest)


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Champion’s Reaction.
I expected to miss Smite Evil, but I’ll take Retributive Strike over 1e Smite Evil any day.


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Sy Kerraduess wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Do we *know* all undead are unholy?

Yes, the Remaster GM Core says "almost all undead are unholy" on p.127.

Captain Morgan wrote:

While I'm not sure I like this unholy undead Pharasma business, I think this a bigger lore than mechanics problem. Just because something has the unholy trait does not mean it has a weakness to holy. See: cleric Sanctification.

Most undead probably won't have a holy weakness, just like they didn't have a good weaknesses pre-remaster. Instead, they will just take the extra damage from holy light just like they did from searing light pre-remaster. Holy light isn't a sanctified spell and already has the holy trait, so Pharasmans can use it the same as always.

Good point. It's somewhat confusing that holy/unholy interactions are handled in multiple different ways. You have:

-spells that always trigger a unholy/holy weakness of the target
-spells that only trigger a unholy/holy weakness if the caster is sanctified
-spells that always deal extra damage to a holy/unholy target regardless of the caster's sanctification or whether the target has a weakness to unholy/holy.

So post-remaster, a spell like Divine Immolation (new Flame Strike) will never deal more damage to undead, whether you're sanctified or not.

And at the other end of the spectrum, a spell like Holy Light will always deal extra damage to undead and fiends, and then deal EVEN MORE extra damage to devils who have a weakness to holy.

So it turns out Pharasma isn't as cringe as we assumed. :P

I just want to point out that the Fiend trait has weakness to holy, so Demons and Daemons are weak to holy as well. (and any other fiends) It seems to me that the Devil trait having the weakness to holy is a redundancy…


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I suspect that they’re retooling the generic Weapon Specialization into more flavoured/class focused. I’m hoping that they bring Spirit Striking to the Champion & Warpriest Cleric honestly.


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RicoTheBold wrote:
Iron_Matt17 wrote:

Oooohh!!! Armour specialization effects! That's pretty neat. Looking forward to checking those out. I'm guessing Piercing=Light armour, Slashing=Medium armour, and Bludgeoning=Heavy armour.

So happy about those age rules! (or lack there of...)

Nope! ** spoiler omitted **

Oh man! That's way better! Love it!


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Iron_Matt17 wrote:
Ok, so what compensation do the martials get to boost their power? Since there's no more +5 to attack, armour, and saves?
We pretty much fix this by doubling the bonus from proficiency and adding weapon specialization. I mean, best possible fighter with best possible weapon in the playtest was +28 + statMod for 5W + statmod. Now it's +31 + statMod for 3W+8+statMod. So accuracy went up a little, but damage for the biggest weapons went down a smidge.

Ok. That's cool, I didn't crunch through the numbers to find the differences... Now I'm crunching through the numbers for best possible Paladin armour and maybe other saves. Looking good so far...


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Thanks again,
Did they add more "pizazz" to being legendary in something other than just having the highest numbers in it now? I'm specifically thinking about Legendary in armour and/or shields, which the armour check reduction was nice but lacklustre...


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I personally liked secret checks, and would love to see them included in the Core Rulebook.

Another point I noted was that on the Monk had more than one Spell Point. I'm guessing the Spell Point classes are going to start with one, and then acquire more, if they desire, through feats...


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Just read over the Unchained, great stuff. The Playtest would be so much easier apply these changes over 1e, since they simplified and condensed many of these bonuses... The level gate helps simplify it immensely as well.
Here's a quick overview of what characters could get naturally (with the appropriate quality of gear to channel their innate power) that I can pick up on the spot...
Level 3- +1 Light and Medium Armour
Level 4- +1 Heavy Armour and Bracers, +1 Weapon
Level 7- +2 Armour
Level 8- +2 Weapon, +2 Bracers
Level 11- +3 Armour
Level 12- +3 Weapon, +3 Bracers
Level 14- Stat Boost to one stat
Level 15- +4 Armour
Level 16- +4 Weapon, +4 Bracers
Level 19- +5 Armour
Level 20- +5 Weapon, +5 Bracers
Of course, there are questions about multiple weapons and what not. But the attunement bonuses from Unchained are a great starting point. I would love to see this implemented.


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I believe it was an oversight, I'm hoping they fix that soon... But the same could be said about the Cleric losing Emblazon Symbol. Same change, similar oversight of "where is the holy symbol coming from when they cast spells with their hands full?"
As of right now, I'm playing that Lay on Hands does not provoke until stated otherwise that this change was intentional...


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I want to happily announce that I retract my issues with Blade of Justice. I've been testing it thoroughly the last few days, with my own tests and a session of "When the Stars Go Dark". Yes, it is very true that Smite outshines BoJ damage-wise. This would be a problem if Blade of Justice lasted only one round... But of course, it doesn't have to.
I found it was quite flavourful as an aggro type feat, and was a very effective tactic against single target enemies. (since the enemy probably won't be focusing all its attacks on the Paladin. And if so...Great!) Great job, Paizo!


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I actually prefer if they printed the dcs on the monster stats. A hardy half-orc barbarian should not have the same chance to recover from dying as a spindly elf Wizard... CON should have something to do with recovery saves, IMO.


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Yes, I'd like to chime in and ask whether the Rogue Dedication Feat (or any other Rogue feat) grants Dex to Damage...


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In PF1e you had to decide between having a shield and using LoHs mid battle. The choice was forced due to the mechanics. Thankfully the designers saw that and created a feat that didn't force the choice any longer... Hence the Iconic Sword and Board Paladin is now functional. I may be a minority, but I have been waiting a long time to be able to have both. And it was my primary concern coming into the Playtest. Thanks guys...


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Playing Seelah was by far the most exciting for me at the Delves. I could have played her every time! (and I played a lot) Retributive Strike is amazing. As long as Seelah is within melee strike of the enemy, she can use a suped up a AoO. If the enemy attacks an ally way in the back, it provokes. Then there's the agro effect of enfeebling the enemy until it attacks Seelah. Pretty sweet. Lay on Hands at level one? The lack thereof was the top reason level 1 was so painful as a Paladin for me. So glad the changed that. It's already been mentioned why her class feat choices are great.
The lack of Smite Evil at level 1? Yeah, I'm ok with it. I can now make the choice to go down that route if I want to. The devs have stated that they are making Paladins less "I'm going to seek out evil and smite it" and more "I want to protect my friends"...

Sidenote: I'm not sure if they changed this or not, but IIRC Mark mentioned in the Paladin Twitch Stream that Paladin's bonus to healing was her spell casting modifier. (CHA+level) So Seelah would in fact be healing for 1d6+3 at level 1.


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Interestingly enough, I remember Seelah rocking the chain mail. And I am curious as to how Shield Block works. In the GCP Podcast Keith's shield broke after one hit. Reading from here, it takes two hits (or one big hit) to break it.
And I'm pretty sure Natural Ambition gives another Class Feat. Seelah had two Class feats and she had Natural Ambition as well...


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With all that has been revealed about the classes, and time marching ever closer to the Playtest drop. I thought I'd revisit this Paladin Mechanics thread. Seeing Paizo's general direction has given me a lot of ideas of what I'd like to see for the Paladin...

First off, I'd like to comment on abilities we know about then go into my own ideas.
Divine Grace- I have good reason to believe that this ability does not key off of CHA anymore, (find my reason here) regardless I'd like this ability to scale. +6 at level 20 is not overpowered, especially since it's a reaction now. Which leads me...

Reactions- I'm still concerned about the Paladin's reaction glut. Retributive Strike, Divine Grace, Attack of Opportunity, Shield Block, Grab Edge(?), etc. It would ease the pressure if I could take a feat somewhere to give me the ability to have two reactions in a turn. Even if that meant it's two of a specific type. (say like Divine Grace) Or a General Feat that gives me additional reactions.

Retributive Strike- We know that Oath feats take away the penalty of RS against Oath enemies. But what if I wanted to make a Retributive Strike focused Paladin? What are my feat options? Is Aura of Vengeance it?...

Blade of Justice- We have a better idea as to how this works from the Barbarian and Ranger preview. It seems that Rage, Blade of Justice, and Hunt Target either give a bonus to attack OR damage. Since the Gauntlet blog mentions nothing of BoJ's attack going up I am under the impression that it's only damage. The difference between BoJ and the other two is that BoJ is not an ability. We have to jump through some hoops to get it. (Righteous Blade Ally then grab it as a feat) I love the utility of it, that the Paladin can smite all day every day if there's evil around. But it comes at a steep cost... One of your precious actions PER TURN! (Mark personally confirmed this to me) So taking that all in, I'm hoping that does more than just boost damage. (which is less than PF1e Smite Evil mind you) I'm hoping for either a small boost to attack (which helps make those two actions count) OR ignore Resistances with every hit. I'm leaning towards the latter...
The Young Red Dragon throws up its head and bellows a cruel laugh as she watches the Paladin walk peacefully toward her with a FLAMING Longsword...
“Fool!!” she cries as she swoops in for the kill. Little does she know that the Sword is now imbued with Righteous, Holy Fire. A fire she cannot resist... And she will pay dearly for that mistake.

For the non-previewed abilities, I've been using a trend that I've noticed from Paizo. They've been getting some of their inspiration from Paladin Spells. Hero's Defiance and Litanies are straight up Paladin Features now. Restoration has been folded into Lay on Hands. (especially with the new focus on conditions) Ultimate Mercy is still Raise Dead. Then there's the Angelic Aspect like feat that Mark mentioned. The list could go on, so I'll mention some of my own...

Righteous Mount Feats- Perhaps give them aspects of Saddle Surge or even Radiant Charge. We want to see Paladin's Charging!!

Righteous Shield Feats- We know that the Fighter gets Shield Warden, the Paladin should too! Either here or elsewhere...

Paladin's Sacrifice- Yes! We know that Paizo is taking the Paladin in a “Protect my friends” direction. This spell screamed that! Let's see it 2e.

Swift Girding/Bed of Iron- Since the Paladin is Legendary in Armour, he should don it with amazing speed (a la Iron Man?...) and/or be able to sleep in it with causing fatigue. (What does Legendary Armour give you!! Argh!)

Paladin's Fall- Ok, this one is not about what the Paladin gets, it's about what he loses. I firmly believe that when a Paladin falls, he loses his connection to the Divine. So that would include any “Divinely Inspired” abilities and feats. Spell Point powers and Righteous Ally is a good start... But what about all the Auras? (including the Resistance to Evil damage Aura of Righteousness) Divine Grace? (emphasis on the word Divine) Angelic Aspect like Feat? Sense Evil? Need I go on?... A fallen Paladin should keep his proficiencies and maybe Retributive Strike. (though even that one is debatable because there are a couple auras that play off that ability)


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Tholomyes wrote:

I expect the answer to this is "Not in Core, but probably when the Inner Sea Gods 2e (or w/e) comes out" but:

Martial use of Deities' Favored Weapons: Will there be ways to have a martial make use of their deity's favored weapon either more effectively (in the case of, frankly, weaker weapons), or in different and interesting ways (in the case of already good weapons)? Because I've had a lot of fun with a Bladed Brush Swashbuckler, a Spear Dancer Style Two Weapon Fighter (hey, I play a lot of Shelynites), a Guided Star Fighter, and have had thoughts on a couple others. A lot seemed to be missed in PF1e, however, (as there were really no good, for example, dagger feats, and even the knife master rogue didn't feel very Pharasman) and it seemed like it was mostly a few pet-deities of certain designers who got the most love in this aspect, and I'm wondering if 2e might be the place to see that shift.

Well, actually...

I do know we get a limited version of this in 2e through the Paladin. At level 1 the Paladin gets an ability called Deific Weapon. This ability buffs Simple Weapons that are a Deity's Favoured Weapon, so that they are competitive with martial weapons. I asked Mark about this feature, and it turned out to be a Paladin exclusive ability. (i.e. Clerics don't have this ability) So that includes Abadar's Light Crossbow (the example Mark gave me) and Irori's Unarmed Fist(?)... As I said, its limited but it's a step in the right direction. They are thinking about these things at least...


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Because I enjoy making lists and seeing the big picture, here are some lists I put together of the Martial class features. Hope this helps...
I'll start with the Ranger:

Level 1- Hunt Target
Level 3- Weapon Expert(?)
Level 5- Trackless Step
Level 7- Evasion
Level 9- Nature's Edge
Level 11- Wild Stride
Level 13- Weapon Mastery
Level 15- Improved Evasion
Level 17- Master Hunter
Level 19- Swift Target

The Ranger was one of the easiest lists to put together, the blog gave us all the class features.
Though they didn't say what the Ranger got at Level 3, but it is a fair assumption that the Martial classes get a boost to attacks at that level. (Fighter's Weapon Mastery, Barb's Rage Crit Specialization, Monk's Unarmed expert, etc...)


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Secret Wizard wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:

I thought I noticed the Rogue doing less static damage during the last couple of Glass Cannon episodes. Adding +2 instead of +4, so I wonder if they decided to remove Dex-to-Damage from the playtest.

Of course it's possible that I just misinterpreted.

someone please confirm, champagne on ice waiting

Well, I can confirm that the Merisiel at the Delves had DEX to damage... I think it was from a feat.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
worldhopper wrote:

I do agree that spell point casting for rangers should be an option in core. I don't know if I'd use it, but enough other people like it and it's got enough of a legacy that tacking it on in a later book feels awkward.

Also, I can't believe I'd completely forgotten Favored Terrain. That one *does* seem weird to lose, as it's much more thematic with the archetypal ranger, and (unlike Favored Enemy) outside of PFS it was fairly easy to pick a terrain that you'd be in for the majority of an AP or module. Really hope there are class feats to bring back some semblance of that.

Agree with the suggestion upthread that Hunt Target should provide some bonuses while actually *hunting* the target, in addition to in combat. Dunno if it should be baseline, or a feat, but I love the concept of being able to use Hunt Target just from a footprint or a fallen feather or a stool or what have you, and get bonuses to track it/the ability to make knowledge checks in advance without penalty.

Wonder if we'll get an animal companion post next? Seems about time...

I feel like that hunting stuff sounds like Survival Skill feats, which I'm sure will be popular for the Ranger but not exclusive to them. Though there might be some way for Hunt Target to tie into that as well.
Hunt Target wrote:
You also gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Perception checks when you Seek your target and a +2 circumstance bonus to Survival checks when you Track your target.

This could be what you are looking for...


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Paradozen wrote:

This is pretty cool. Couple of space issues that I see though. Mostly the actions and activities box seems too small for my taste. Likely I'll just write the stuff next to some of the feats/class features anyway. Also I don't see anything for spells, though maybe this is a slightly specialized character sheet. Eh, there's probably something in there I don't need. And the languages line is pretty small, maybe getting a lot of languages is harder? Or just doesn't matter as much for space issues.

I like that the modifier box for ability scores is bigger than the score, it might make it easier to explain the difference to new players. I want to know what hero points do in PF2. Hopefully that box isn't like the annoying DR and Resistances boxes in the PF1 sheets, that almost never mattered because very few characters I played ever had DR or Resistances. Looks like spirit totem makes barbarians experts with will saves, which is pretty cool.

Ah, ok then. From memory...

There is a third page that was not previewed. It's for spells and spell points and the like.
Hero Points are basically GM brownie points which can buy you things like stabilize while dying, reroll a d20 (tho they are generous that if your second roll is worse, you can take the first) or if you spend all 3 (which is max) Hero Points you can get a fourth action in a round. That's the rough explanation.
Spirit totems do something else other than saves, but I can't remember what...
Hope this helps!


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Do you need to have Legendary Proficiency to use a Legendary Weapon or Armour?


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Shinigami02 wrote:
...Okay that actually is quite reasonable. Thank you for the excellent explanation. Still somewhat bites that the best armor would still be locked behind Lawful for the most part (personal issues prevent me playing Lawful, but that's it's own topic) but at least I'll probably have the Grey Maidens for that.

You're quite welcome. I'm hopeful that there will eventually be several ways to get to that level of Armor Proficiency.

Felinus wrote:
If it is a base class that services each of the 4 alignment extremes I'd go with Exemplar. With Paladin, Liberator, Tyrant and Reaver for the four alignment extremes.

I might go with something other than Liberator ('Chevalier' has some legacy stuff, being a Cayden Cailean affiliated Prestige Class from Pathfinder's 3.5 stuff that got Smite Evil), but yeah, something like that sounds fine to me.

Retiring Paladin as the name of a core class has presentation issues, though.

To prevent the presentation issues, could they not keep the Paladin Core then introduce the rest in the APG. I know it's not ideal, but it keeps the Core classes together. While giving another book with more room to introduce the "Exemplars".

I also prefer Chevalier over Liberator.


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I think I'll piggyback this thread as a Paladin Mechanic thread...

In regards to feat trees, I realized recently that we know about another Paladin Feat tree...

Shining Oath- This was the feat that Joe chose in the "Crypt of the Everflame Podcast". In one of my more "Duh!!" moments, it occurred to me that this was the PF2e equivalent to the Oath against Undeath archetype. Mark talked about the "Fiendsbane Oath" in the blog and Twitch stream, and mentioned that Paladins will be very good at Retributive Strike against Fiends. Shining Oath confirms that the -2 penalty of Retributive Strike will be lost against the particular creature you swore an oath against. Of course, Jason didn't mention anything about the other parts of the Feat to change the Code... Which brings me to the feat tree part. We know that Fiendsbane Paladins will also get Anchoring Aura. Which I am expecting to be another feat at later levels. (Though it could be baked into the one feat but I doubt it...) So I'm expecting the same for the Shining Oath feats. Perhaps an Oath of Life?... So what other Oaths will there be? Corruption? Savages? Or what about the popular Oath of Vengeance?

On another topic, I now believe Litanies will be a Class feature, not feat. The word ability is used for Litanies in the blog and Twitch stream, not feat. Also, Mark mentioned that Litanies will come active after a Sloth demon (or aspects of sloths) will be a challenge. (With the 50 Sloth Demons comment in the twitch stream) In 1e, these were CR 2 monsters. So level 7, level 9? It's worth mentioning that the ability means 2 more (at least) spell points for the Paladin there...


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
I think the Paladin should embrace being a specific alignment rather than shy away from it

For the record, I too entirely agree with this. Some aspects of being a Paladin seem alignment agnostic (Divine Grace leaps to mind), but far more are tied to their Alignment in some fundamental way, at least thematically.

Being superb at Armor strikes me as very Lawful, for example, while the more Chaotic versions could favor Weapons instead, while healing is quintessentially part of the Good versions (Evil should get harm stuff ala Touch of Corruption). I'd also be cool with party-buffing stuff being Lawful affiliated, while the Chaotic version would get more self-buff powers (Chaotic being more associated with individualism, after all). Oath Feats also seem fundamentally Lawful to me, though I suspect the Chaotic versions would just get more non-Oath affiliated stuff rather than an equivalent category.

Yeah, taking these sentiments over to the Anti-Paladin... I see the LE Tyrant as the more "Paladin like" of the two Evils. Armour, Party buffs, and Oaths, they are more related. But then again, do they want the exact opposite in the evil version of the Paladin? Armour to their weapons, Party buffs to their self buffs, Oaths to their Chaotic equivalents... Actually, come to think of it... Paizo is already going in this direction with the Paladin's Retributive Strike (hit an ally reaction) vs The Anti-Paladin's Wrathful Strike. (crit me reaction)


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Iron_Matt17 wrote:
So are you saying they should give the CG a name, and the LE an Anti-<insert name here> to follow suit? Or a name that overarches all the 4 classes?

1 name that overarches the four Classes would be good (or going with Paladin for the Good ones and Antipaladin for the Evil ones...but a lot of people wouldn't like that). The issue is that if Paladin is 'demoted' to the name of one of the four versions (the LG one), I suspect people will be upset about that as well.

It's a tricky issue.

People are going to be upset regardless. ;^P

I myself don't mind the Paladin being 'demoted' to the LG name of one of the four versions. And I see it going down the way that Tholomyes suggests. Though I think it'll be 4 different classes, and the other three in the APG. That being said though, they at least have a full design concept for the Anti-Paladin (seen from the Crypt of the Everflame Podcast, and rumours of one showing up in Crimson Dawn) with at least a Retributive Strike ability. So will they make Core?... We'll see.

The Raven Black wrote:
I think the Paladin should embrace being a specific alignment rather than shy away from it

This. This is exactly how I feel. Other RPGs have shied away, let's embrace it. The four corner alignment warriors can hit most of the alignments, (save for N) with the design space of three other classes. That's it. This way others who want to play a "Paladin-like" PC but not be restricted to LG, can. I see it as a win/win for everyone.


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The Thematics vs Mechanics debate is still raging all over the internet and beyond. So I'm not sure it's beneficial (for both of us) to go down that rabbit trail. I doubt we'll change each others mind.
But I find that 5e has filled the "Divorce Mechanics from Thematics" niche. (Hence why there are Evil Paladins in the game) Perhaps Pathfinder can fill the "Blend Mechanics and Thematics together" niche?...


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I want "Deific Champions" of all alignments, since there are deities of all alignments.

I do not want "Champions of Goodness and Law" of all alignments since that makes no sense.

I see the Paladin as the latter, and the former to be a different class entirely

Perhaps the most symmetrically satisfying thing is to make alternate classes for the 4 alignments druids can't be: Paladin, Anti-Paladin, Tyrant, and Liberator or something. Completely different classes, but they can share mechanics and feats as appropriate.

I agree with Cabbage here. Paladins are not the "Deific Champion" of all alignments. The 4 alignments warriors is the most likely direction Paizo will be taking. (I think)


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I feel like we just need a different word since I can't see "Paladin" applying to anything that's not LG, since the word is almost definitionally "the hero who always does the right thing in the right way."

It's fine to have a deific champion of any alignment, but that isn't (to me) a Paladin, even the champions of LG deities. Personally, I think of a Paladin as someone who values fundamental goodness and order more than any particular deity. A "you are the chosen warrior for whatever god" should be a totally different class, just don't call it a Paladin.

I would rather see "Warpriest" become a core class and have the Paladin go away entirely than see non-LG Paladins.

Great stuff here guys. I especially like this quote here: (which I'll paste it again for emphasis)

PossibleCabbage wrote:
I feel like we just need a different word since I can't see "Paladin" applying to anything that's not LG, since the word is almost definitionally "the hero who always does the right thing in the right way."

I really like this summation of a Paladin. That's exactly how I feel. But funny enough, I differ with most of you on the whole don't need a deity thing...

It has never made any sense to me for a Paladin to get his powers from an "Ideal" or from a generic Lawful Goodness domain. The Paladin needs a "sponsor" for his DIVINE powers in my mind. (I could see Angels doing it for the whole Lawful Goodness domain thing tho...) He needs to tap into some particular type of power source. The "Ideal" plays a different part than his source of power. The ideal (or Code of Conduct) specifies what type of Holy Warrior (or if you prefer Divine Champion) he is. I think there is design space for more than one type of Divine Champion in the game. Cleric, Inquisitor, Warpriest, Paladin, etc could all be classified as Divine Champion of some sort or the other. The problem is that the lines between the classes get muddled very easily. That's why I think that the LG/Code/Ideal is Core to the Paladin. It differentiates him from the others, because he pursues his deities wishes though an Ideal. That's his method. So if a deity would like to "sponsor" the Paladin, he/she needs to be in line with the "Ideal". Because the two, person and ideal, are inseparable. (this brings up a fascinating discussion of where the Code originally comes from, but that's totally off topic) This way the Paladin can be the Alignment champion AND a Divine Champion at the same time. You can also see this on how the designers made Anathemas equal to the first tenet of the Code. So yeah, I'm a big fan of the direction they're taking with Paladins...
Huh, look at that... I guess I inadvertently answered the OP. No, I don't think so. ;^)
PS- I tried not to use the whole "make Paladins Golarion friendly by making Anathemas Core" argument through this. Though I find that argument pretty strong. I'm also sure they'll make a splat book or APG where they'll give you the option to to make a nondeific Paladin...


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Mark Seifter wrote:
I've converted Shattered Star up to Book 4 for my work playtest, and it's going great. I'm in the process of setting up War for the Crown for my home group.

Wow, is there any way you can share the conversion stats for those who'd love to play War for the Crown once the Playtest is out? I'd love to play that AP but I really want to play it using the 2e rules...


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I like the idea of having a Divine Champion that can be fit for each Deity.


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Thanks a bunch Cyouni!
Those are some great notes, I would like to add to these comprehensive notes...

When rolling on a save there is a chance that a Nat 1 could just fail not a fumble. That's if the bonus to the save is higher than the DC itself. High level stuff but interesting nonetheless...

The Skeletal Champion interested me. He definitely had a level in Anti-Paladin with his Wrathful Strike. He also had a few feats like Sudden Charge, Power Attack, and Attacks of Opportunities. So did he get those feats from being a Skeletal Champion, levels in Fighter, or all Anti-Paladin?...

You can't raise your Shield in exploration mode.

Shield Block is a reaction that anyone who is proficient with a Shield can take. "You snap your shield into place to deflect a blow prevents you from taking an amount of damage up to your shield's hardness. (A heavy steel shield has a hardness of 9) If the shield takes damage equal to or exceeding its hardness the shield takes a dent" Taking a dent seems to render the shield broken. (I added some knowledge that I had from Paizocon)

I can infer that people take a -4 AC penalty when prone. Emmerich (who had an AC of 17) was prone, the skeleton hit with a 14. So DC 13?...


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The last episode is online!! I'll have some notes up in the next couple days...


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Here's what I am hoping for each ability:
Level 2 Paladin Feat
Divine Grace: Reaction. +2 to all Saving Throws. Add a +1 for every 4 Paladin levels beyond level 2. (to a maximum of +6 at Level 18)

Level 4 Paladin Feat
Blade of Justice: 1 Action. Call Justice upon a target within sight. If the target is evil, the Paladin adds +2 to each attack against the foe. The attack bonus goes up +1 every four Paladin levels beyond Level 4. (to a maximum of +6 at Level 20) In addition, the Paladin adds half her level (rounded down) to all her damage rolls against her target. This damage is Good aligned and regardless of the target, the Blade of Justice Attacks bypasses all Resistances the creature might possess.

Making Divine Grace a static number is a smart way of preventing dipping into Paladin just for the ability. I just seriously hope it scales...
I'm making a few educated guesses in the Blade of Justice bit. Righteous Ally comes online at Level 3, and we know that Blade of Justice is the first major Blade Ally feat. Therefore, level 4... I also like the idea of attack bonus slowly scaling up along the same line as Divine Grace (DG= 2,6,10,14,18; BoJ=4,8,12,16,20) Also, the blog doesn't specify how much damage the Blade of Justice does, so I just went with half. Lastly, you'll notice I did not add any bonuses to AC. The Paladin is already an AC Boss, so by adding another bonus would make them nigh invincible. (AC wise) I also inferred a few things from Mark's comments from the Monk's blog:

Mark Seifter wrote:
“My Strength monk was the party's best defended, including the paladin (two-handed Ragathiel paladin) against pretty much everything, while also having our best direct offense (this last was due to factors of opposition and itemization; the paladin could have been equal or better at offense in other situations)”

The two handed Paladin had less AC than the Monk, so that would probably include times when they fought an evil creature. How do I know that they fought Evil creatures together? There were times when the Paladin did more damage than the Monk. Blade of Justice anyone?... Though I definitely could be wrong.

I would be so very excited if these are roughly how the feats turn up in the Playtest... =^D


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Mark Seifter wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Yeah, we have been assured a barbarian with the right Medicine feats can play a viable healer. Of course, I'm not clear on what the limitations of this are-- one assumes Resonance doesn't play into stitching up wounds the old fashioned way.
Since this likely refers to my assertions about the barbarian in my group who is their primary healer, I will attest that while it has certainly been assumed, I have never said precisely that statement. Not going to deny that she has Battle Medic, but that's not all.
So, given that you've definitely read this thread now, can I take your not answering my question about whether we'll still have to keep track of individual item charges to mean that you're not allowed to give us a direct answer yet?
I actually just popped in to dispel that one assertion. I do try to read all the posts listed as "new" when I poke into a thread, which interestingly keeps me out of threads where I didn't have the time to read it most of the time (like barbarian in my absence), but in this case, I saw something in the preview I really wanted to comment on.

Actually, Mark answered this question directly at the GCP Crypt of the Everflame Podcast thread I started.


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I just wanted to clarify a potential mistake I made on my notes...

Divine Grace is a reaction that gives a +2 to a saving throw. Those are Jason's exact words. I assumed that meant +CHA to a saving throw, since the Paladin had a +2 to CHA. So it could go either way with that...


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Roswynn wrote:

Iron_Matt17 - No, of course I don't agree with you ;P But I respect your ideas of fun and morals. At this point I'm just waiting to see whether the Playtest rules (and more importantly, the PF2 rules!) will let me shove alignments under a rug gracefully and without impacting the mechanics. If so, I'll be in heaven.

No prob, as long as I can play the way I want (and in Unchained Paizo gave me and people like me a lot of good choices about dumping alignments) you all can play exactly the way - you - want. It's only fair.

Thank you, and I wish the same. I hope they make it easy for you to "shove it gracefully". (your choice of words here makes me smile) It is only fair...


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The main reason (but not the only one) that I like Alignments is actually an odd one. I may be a minority here, but the reason is because I believe in Objective Truth. I believe that it exists and can be known in RL. (sorry Rosswyn, totally disagree with you there) When I come to Pathfinder, I find that Golarion has Objective Truth. There are LITERALLY Good domains and Evil domains, Chaotic beings and a Lawful beings. The characters make decisions that effect and shape their world around them. (not saying that they couldn't without Alignments, it's just that decisions become more arbitrary without Alignments, to me...) Then when they die (generally speaking) they go to their respective alignments domains. No one can escape that Truth. This is the world I want to play in. That is the world that Paizo has created, (or continued as it were) and Alignments are at the core of it. I'm not interested in preserving some archaic D&D legacy, in fact I've only played Pathfinder. I'm weird and I WANT this is in my RPG. So you can say I have a tiny emotional investment in Alignments. ;P
I understand that not everyone who plays are interested in Alignments. (probably most aren't) I also understand that others will totally disagree with me. That's absolutely fine. They can play the game as they see fit. But please understand that there are a lot more reasons here for wanting to keep the Alignments than "Tradition"... There are many games that do away with or flat out ignore alignments. (at least I heard there are, I don't know, never played them ;P) Cool, if that's their cup of tea, go for it! Me? I'm proud that Paizo has decided to keep alignments. But that's just me.
PS I'm not trying to start a philosophical debate here, just showing you where I come from and that my investment here is not in tradition.


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No Total Defence anymore
Grapple is an Athletics check. (from Pharise climbing the Construct, was a DC 16 to climb Wooden Construct with 60 HP)
+5 to Athletics when making an attack action. (ie combat maneuver)
A fail on a Splash weapon still hits for 1 point of damage. Fumble does nothing.
Acid Splash has changed in the last few months. “Splash a glob of acid, make a ranged touch attack with a +5 bonus. If it hits 1d4+1 damage.”
Detect Magic has changed recently. “You send out a magical pulse that registers the presence of magic, no info beyond the presence or absence of magic. You can ignore any magic that you are aware of from you or your allies. (such as magical items, ongoing spells, etc) 2 actions to cast”
Cleric Cantrip- Forbidding Ward: +1 to AC and Saves for ally against an enemy. Must see both ally and enemy to cast. (This text is a mixture of the Podcast and my experience at the Delve table at Paizocon)
Resonance: Cha+ Level
Save DC goes up every level for casters.

Ok, so we were given a wealth of knowledge at the Plague Zombie fight. So, I tried to condense it down since we know the stats on a regular zombie. It seems they just added the Plague variant to them.
Zombies get an auto grab when they hit with their slam attacks. Once grabbed the PC was flatfooted, could not move, and had to make a flat check to perform any manipulate actions. Escaping the grab was an Athletics check vs. The Plague Zombie's Fort + 10.
The Plague Zombie's Death Burst is a reaction, with a DC 15. If you fail the save, you contract disease 1 onset 1d4 days. If the PC fumbles, they get Diseased 2 (something about boils?...yuck) Interestingly enough, even if you make the save you get Sickened 1 condition. (-1 to all checks, and you need to retch through a Fort save to beat it) The Sickened condition is cumulative as well. But if they hit the Plague Zombie with a Piecing (or Blunt) weapon, the Zombie can as reaction “pop” and spray the assailant. Thus requiring another Fort save. Interestingly, it seems if the PC makes this save they're fine. Finally, Plague Zombies have a weakness 4 to Slashing.

Still +4 AC with cover (Zombie's 11 AC went to 15)
And here's some info that I personally enjoyed... the Paladin was able to use Lay on Hands as a Touch attack on the Zombies while wielding a long sword and shield. (That was due to a feat I learned about at Paizocon, Warded Touch)
“Retributive Strike: Make a melee strike against a triggering creature at a -2 penalty. If your attack hits, the target is enfeebled 1 for the remainder of its turn. Enfeebled 2 on a crit.”


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Rogue:
8+Con HP
Feats- Quick Draw: Draw weapon and attack in one action.
Mobility: Stride up to half your speed, does not provoke reactions.
The Rogue got to pick another skill to be trained in. (AKA Skill Increase)
Alchemist:
8+Con Hp
Feats- Alchemical Savant: Identify an alchemical item with two actions. (Skid mistakenly used this feat, even though he chose Smoke Bomb)
Smoke Bomb: Make regular with smoke bomb properties.
Cleric:
8+Con HP
Additional 1st level spell at level 2.
Feats- Turn Undead: Casting Heal on undead, if they fumble the saving throw they flee for 1 round.
Healing Hands: Add verbal spellcasting action to any Heal spell for an additional 1d8 healing.
Fighter:
10+Con HP
Feats- Power Attack: For two actions, add 1 die of damage to attack.
Aggressive Shield: Whenever you shield block, you push the enemy back 5 ft or make the enemy flat footed for 1 round. Enemies choice.
Paladin:
10+Con HP
Divine Grace: Reaction. +Cha to saving throws.
Shining Oath: Whenever you use Retributive Strike against undead, no -2 penalty.
Wizard:
6+Con HP
Additional 1st level spell at level 2.
Feats- Reach Spell: Add Somatic component to any spell, making it reach 30 ft. Touch--> Range
Counter Spell: Spend reaction to counter same spell.

Skill Feats- Assurance: Take 10 on any skill you possess.
Skill Training: Requires Int 12+, pick an untrained skill. You are now trained in it. (This does not look like the feat that could give you Signature skills...)
Quick I.D.: Nature, Divine, Arcane, identify items quickly. (Occult is missing, hmmm....)

It's simple to level up, make your Feat choices and then add 1 to most numbers on the character sheet.
4th level is when you become expert in skills. (I actually think Jason made a mistake here. From what we learned from Mark on Legendary skills, in order to get 3 Legendary skills (or 6 for Rogues) we'll need to upgrade one skill to expert at level 3. But we'll see...)

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