Playtest Reveals from the Crypt of the Everflame with GCP Finale!!


Prerelease Discussion

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Hey Everybody!
Unfortunately, I was unable to be present at this live session at Paizocon. But after weeks of anticipation, they finally released the Podcast!! These are parts 5 and 6 of the series with one more part coming later on next week. I'll be writing down what we learned from the Podcast. Some of it you may already know, some it you may not. And if you haven't listened to it from the beginning, I encourage you to do that. It's quite fun and entertaining, and you get a glimpse at the Playtest in action! Go check it out.
Here are the links:
https://glasscannonpodcast.com/the-pathfinder-playtest-part-5/

https://glasscannonpodcast.com/the-pathfinder-playtest-part-6/

Enjoy!


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Rogue:
8+Con HP
Feats- Quick Draw: Draw weapon and attack in one action.
Mobility: Stride up to half your speed, does not provoke reactions.
The Rogue got to pick another skill to be trained in. (AKA Skill Increase)
Alchemist:
8+Con Hp
Feats- Alchemical Savant: Identify an alchemical item with two actions. (Skid mistakenly used this feat, even though he chose Smoke Bomb)
Smoke Bomb: Make regular with smoke bomb properties.
Cleric:
8+Con HP
Additional 1st level spell at level 2.
Feats- Turn Undead: Casting Heal on undead, if they fumble the saving throw they flee for 1 round.
Healing Hands: Add verbal spellcasting action to any Heal spell for an additional 1d8 healing.
Fighter:
10+Con HP
Feats- Power Attack: For two actions, add 1 die of damage to attack.
Aggressive Shield: Whenever you shield block, you push the enemy back 5 ft or make the enemy flat footed for 1 round. Enemies choice.
Paladin:
10+Con HP
Divine Grace: Reaction. +Cha to saving throws.
Shining Oath: Whenever you use Retributive Strike against undead, no -2 penalty.
Wizard:
6+Con HP
Additional 1st level spell at level 2.
Feats- Reach Spell: Add Somatic component to any spell, making it reach 30 ft. Touch--> Range
Counter Spell: Spend reaction to counter same spell.

Skill Feats- Assurance: Take 10 on any skill you possess.
Skill Training: Requires Int 12+, pick an untrained skill. You are now trained in it. (This does not look like the feat that could give you Signature skills...)
Quick I.D.: Nature, Divine, Arcane, identify items quickly. (Occult is missing, hmmm....)

It's simple to level up, make your Feat choices and then add 1 to most numbers on the character sheet.
4th level is when you become expert in skills. (I actually think Jason made a mistake here. From what we learned from Mark on Legendary skills, in order to get 3 Legendary skills (or 6 for Rogues) we'll need to upgrade one skill to expert at level 3. But we'll see...)


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No Total Defence anymore
Grapple is an Athletics check. (from Pharise climbing the Construct, was a DC 16 to climb Wooden Construct with 60 HP)
+5 to Athletics when making an attack action. (ie combat maneuver)
A fail on a Splash weapon still hits for 1 point of damage. Fumble does nothing.
Acid Splash has changed in the last few months. “Splash a glob of acid, make a ranged touch attack with a +5 bonus. If it hits 1d4+1 damage.”
Detect Magic has changed recently. “You send out a magical pulse that registers the presence of magic, no info beyond the presence or absence of magic. You can ignore any magic that you are aware of from you or your allies. (such as magical items, ongoing spells, etc) 2 actions to cast”
Cleric Cantrip- Forbidding Ward: +1 to AC and Saves for ally against an enemy. Must see both ally and enemy to cast. (This text is a mixture of the Podcast and my experience at the Delve table at Paizocon)
Resonance: Cha+ Level
Save DC goes up every level for casters.

Ok, so we were given a wealth of knowledge at the Plague Zombie fight. So, I tried to condense it down since we know the stats on a regular zombie. It seems they just added the Plague variant to them.
Zombies get an auto grab when they hit with their slam attacks. Once grabbed the PC was flatfooted, could not move, and had to make a flat check to perform any manipulate actions. Escaping the grab was an Athletics check vs. The Plague Zombie's Fort + 10.
The Plague Zombie's Death Burst is a reaction, with a DC 15. If you fail the save, you contract disease 1 onset 1d4 days. If the PC fumbles, they get Diseased 2 (something about boils?...yuck) Interestingly enough, even if you make the save you get Sickened 1 condition. (-1 to all checks, and you need to retch through a Fort save to beat it) The Sickened condition is cumulative as well. But if they hit the Plague Zombie with a Piecing (or Blunt) weapon, the Zombie can as reaction “pop” and spray the assailant. Thus requiring another Fort save. Interestingly, it seems if the PC makes this save they're fine. Finally, Plague Zombies have a weakness 4 to Slashing.

Still +4 AC with cover (Zombie's 11 AC went to 15)
And here's some info that I personally enjoyed... the Paladin was able to use Lay on Hands as a Touch attack on the Zombies while wielding a long sword and shield. (That was due to a feat I learned about at Paizocon, Warded Touch)
“Retributive Strike: Make a melee strike against a triggering creature at a -2 penalty. If your attack hits, the target is enfeebled 1 for the remainder of its turn. Enfeebled 2 on a crit.”


Why would total defense be gone?


Don't know. Jason never explained...


Oh, and I forgot to mention... The biggest lesson I learned of all was that Jason has an abnormal fixation on dead bodies... blech!!


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Yolande d'Bar wrote:
Why would total defense be gone?

At a guess it's because options which were never a good idea short of a really specific build/situation are the first to get the axe in the new edition.


Iron_Matt17 wrote:
Feats- Reach Spell: Add Somatic component to any spell, making it reach 30 ft. Touch--> Range

Can a spell have multiple Somatic components, or does this feat just not apply to spells that have one already?

P.S. Thanks for writing all that up for us!


Yolande d'Bar wrote:
Why would total defense be gone?

I think it’s to make using a shield stand out more.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Iron_Matt17 wrote:
Feats- Reach Spell: Add Somatic component to any spell, making it reach 30 ft. Touch--> Range

Can a spell have multiple Somatic components, or does this feat just not apply to spells that have one already?

P.S. Thanks for writing all that up for us!

Yes, they can. I asked the same at UK Games Expo when playing Ezren, although I had Widen Spell, rather than Reach.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Iron_Matt17 wrote:
Feats- Reach Spell: Add Somatic component to any spell, making it reach 30 ft. Touch--> Range

Can a spell have multiple Somatic components, or does this feat just not apply to spells that have one already?

P.S. Thanks for writing all that up for us!

I do not think spells have multiple Somatic components. And here's why... The Cleric took the similar feat called Healing Hands. It seemed to basically "Power Up" or overlap the verbal casting aspect of the Heal spell. Every time he casted Heal, he added an extra 1d8 of healing. That's what I think was going on there, and similarly what the Wizard did when he casted Reach "Detect Magic".

You're Welcome!!


Iron_Matt17 wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Iron_Matt17 wrote:
Feats- Reach Spell: Add Somatic component to any spell, making it reach 30 ft. Touch--> Range

Can a spell have multiple Somatic components, or does this feat just not apply to spells that have one already?

P.S. Thanks for writing all that up for us!

I do not think spells have multiple Somatic components. And here's why... The Cleric took the similar feat called Healing Hands. It seemed to basically "Power Up" or overlap the verbal casting aspect of the Heal spell. Every time he casted Heal, he added an extra 1d8 of healing. That's what I think was going on there, and similarly what the Wizard did when he casted Reach "Detect Magic".

You're Welcome!!

Based on listening to GCP playing curse of everflame the extra 1d8 was indeed coming from an extra action. So he had the normal choices of one action 1d8+4 melee, two action 1d8+4 ranged and 3 action burst of 4 healing but also gained two action 2d8+4 melee and three action 2d8+4 ranged.


Iron_Matt17 wrote:

Fighter:

10+Con HP
Aggressive Shield: Whenever you shield block, you push the enemy back 5 ft or make the enemy flat footed for 1 round. Enemies choice.

Enemy's choice is interesting change to norm of 3.x/PRPG. Wonder if this type of thing will be more common.

Quote:
Quick I.D.: Nature, Divine, Arcane, identify items quickly. (Occult is missing, hmmm....)

Actually, this makes me think... Should constructs be Alchemical? Animated Objects?

I think that would establish strong role/ID for them & carve out niche for Alchemy. Everything else has enough without them.


Quandary wrote:
Iron_Matt17 wrote:

Fighter:

10+Con HP
Aggressive Shield: Whenever you shield block, you push the enemy back 5 ft or make the enemy flat footed for 1 round. Enemies choice.
Enemy's choice is interesting change to norm of 3.x/PRPG. Wonder if this type of thing will be more common.

Considering how resistant Paizo is to letting you reposition enemies into danger zones or off cliff edges, this may be their compromise. Instead of having several extra lines of text in every forced movement ability telling the player not to have fun, they make it enemy's choice.

Usually someone will choose to become flat footed rather than fall off a ledge, but if they can mitigate falling and the alternative is a round of full attacks from the party circling around them, well. Falling may be preferable. Likewise they may choose to be moved back into a firepit if it won't actually faze them.

Quandary wrote:


Quote:
Quick I.D.: Nature, Divine, Arcane, identify items quickly. (Occult is missing, hmmm....)

Actually, this makes me think... Should constructs be Alchemical? Animated Objects?

I think that would establish strong role/ID for them & carve out niche for Alchemy. Everything else has enough without them.

I find it unlikely they would base monster identification on Craft. Instead, I think Occult was left off those playtest character sheets simply because that skill and spell list has not gotten any attention yet. The full ability as published will probably include occult. For creatures, constructs and aberrations will probably fall under its purview.


Iron_Matt17 wrote:
Skill Feats- Assurance: Take 10 on any skill you possess.

The banquet previews of the backgrounds showed that some backgrounds granted things like, "You gain the Assurance skill feat with Athletics," so it sounds like you might have to take it with each skill you want it on. Also, just a note that it's not take 10 in the old sense. You just get a result of 10, regardless of modifiers, bonuses, or penalties. For expert, it's 15, master is 20, and legendary is 30.

(I'm… nonplussed about that.)

Anyway, thank you for collecting the info!

Grand Lodge

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Thank you. This thread was both useful and informative!

Hmm


The Feats the PCs gained upon Levelling didn't seem to come up much which means we should be able to excise them from the game with relative ease. :)


That...doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If you aren't getting feats as you level, what else would you get? Maybe I just misunderstood your post.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

They were also only offered a choice of two feats, to keep things simple and fit in the time. There'll be lots of other options that may come up more often, etc.


Acid Splash assuming good dex: has good Critical chance since +5 hit over and above normal hit Touch AC.
So you should regularly deal 2d4+2 (Crits deal double). This competes well with MM (and acid Splash is a cantrip)


Crayon wrote:
The Feats the PCs gained upon Levelling didn't seem to come up much which means we should be able to excise them from the game with relative ease. :)

Leveling up is +1 to almost everything and select new feats. If you drop feats from the game you aren’t really progressing. Maybe if you were only doing one shots that lasted 1-3 levels you could get away with this but higher level play should need feats.


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Crayon wrote:
The Feats the PCs gained upon Levelling didn't seem to come up much which means we should be able to excise them from the game with relative ease. :)

Is that really different from "character levels up, gets some new spells, but doesn't cast them very often initially because they are not used to thinking about them and what they do"?

It always feels like things need to become old and familiar before people use them much, in this sort of thing.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

... Why would you play Pathfinder and get rid of the feats?


AnimatedPaper:
Nowt. I was concerned it might adversely affect balance, but after seeing some of the options presented, I no longer think that'll be an issue.

NeilsenE:
Even if true the important thing for me is that the Feats aren't essential to the game balance and so should be removeable with minimal consequence.

Rek Rollington:
Not quite one-shots, but certainly low-level and paired with a very slow advancement track.

PossibleCabbage:
Possibly not, but players who don't want to deal with magic can avoid it easily by simply not playing casters. As far as we know, no such option exists pertaining to Feats - hence the necessity of house-ruling...

Captain Morgan:
Mostly because we find the core engine to be intuitive and easy to use so long as the exceptions (spells, magic items, and Feats) are limited...


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

You have a very strange table, Crayon. Why bother changing systems then?


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Most of what used to be class features are now feats. Things that were previously Rogue Talents, extra abilities in your Domain from leveling up, and so on are all now feats. Even most of your racial abilities are feats. You can't really get rid of feats in this edition without breaking the entire system over your knee. o.O


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Anywho, to comment on stuff.

I hope Skill Training grants Signature Skills at some point, because having to sink multiple feats to get there seems lame. Though I suppose you can always use your 1st level skills, and then Signature Skill would just be one feat.

Nice seeing blasting put to good effect. Even with bad rolls, that fire weakness really helped out.

Nitpick: Reach Spell doesn't seem to just turn Touch range into 30 foot range spells, it seems to extend all spell ranges by 30 feet. They used it on Detect Magic to double it's area of effect. Metamagic on cantrips seems like it will be dope.

I've been a little unimpressed with Nimble Dodge so far, but Mobility seemed pretty solid for getting into those flanks, assuming you can't just avoid AoOs using acrobatics anymore. (Is Nimble Dodge a feat or a basic Rogue feature? I'd feel better if it was the latter.)

Really like that athletics let Matthew scale the construct, and it makes me wonder how many applications it has. Was climbing a monster written into the rules, or is there just some general guidance for doing exotic maneuvers?

I gotta say, they've done some brilliant work on the zombie. Having the zombie bite happen after a grapple as a separate action, but giving the zombies only 2 actions makes it so you really need to avoid standing still against one of them, or getting surrounded. Assuming they don't have an movement based reaction (which seems safe to assume) you should now fight them like they do in a zombie movie: keep moving, don't let them grab you, and desperately break that grapple if they do. I wonder if zombie bites will carry a disease by default, and if it can potentially turn people into zombies?

Liberty's Edge

Iron_Matt17 wrote:
Escaping the grab was an Athletics check vs. The Plague Zombie's Fort + 10.

This seems like a little much. Because of the way the math scales evenly now, this is going to be very difficult to escape unless you roll a natural 20, or outlevel the zombie by quite a bit. Am I missing something there?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
JRutterbush wrote:
Iron_Matt17 wrote:
Escaping the grab was an Athletics check vs. The Plague Zombie's Fort + 10.
This seems like a little much. Because of the way the math scales evenly now, this is going to be very difficult to escape unless you roll a natural 20, or outlevel the zombie by quite a bit. Am I missing something there?

The zombies fort save wasn't that high. I don't remember what it was, but it was almost certainly less than 10. I want to say they only needed to beat a 16 or a 17.

It's fortitude bonus +10, not fortitude DC+10. The fort DC is already fort +10.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

JRutterbush wrote:
Iron_Matt17 wrote:
Escaping the grab was an Athletics check vs. The Plague Zombie's Fort + 10.
This seems like a little much. Because of the way the math scales evenly now, this is going to be very difficult to escape unless you roll a natural 20, or outlevel the zombie by quite a bit. Am I missing something there?

It's basically the zombie's passive Fortitude save.

Not that the numbers will be the same, but 1st edition human zombies had a Fortitude of +0, so the DC of the Athletics check would be 10.


JRutterbush wrote:
Iron_Matt17 wrote:
Escaping the grab was an Athletics check vs. The Plague Zombie's Fort + 10.
This seems like a little much. Because of the way the math scales evenly now, this is going to be very difficult to escape unless you roll a natural 20, or outlevel the zombie by quite a bit. Am I missing something there?

I believe the math normalizes around 50% so:

Escape Check = 1d20 + PC Lvl + PC Str + PC Prof Bonus
vs DC = 10 + Zombie Lvl + Zombie Con + Zombie Prof Bonus

So for equal lvl, equally proficient, equally stated in relevant stats opponents it should be even odds. Or actually 55% chance of sucess for the roller.


Captain Morgan wrote:

Anywho, to comment on stuff.

I hope Skill Training grants Signature Skills at some point, because having to sink multiple feats to get there seems lame. Though I suppose you can always use your 1st level skills, and then Signature Skill would just be one feat.

I've been a little unimpressed with Nimble Dodge so far, but Mobility seemed pretty solid for getting into those flanks, assuming you can't just avoid AoOs using acrobatics anymore. (Is Nimble Dodge a feat or a basic Rogue feature? I'd feel better if it was the latter.)

Really like that athletics let Matthew scale the construct, and it makes me wonder how many applications it has. Was climbing a monster written into the rules, or is there just some general guidance for doing exotic maneuvers?

I gotta say, they've done some brilliant work on the zombie. Having the zombie bite happen after a grapple as a separate action, but giving the zombies only 2 actions makes it so you really need to avoid standing still against one of them, or getting surrounded. Assuming they don't have an movement based reaction (which seems safe to assume) you should now fight them like they do in a zombie movie: keep moving, don't let them grab you, and desperately break that grapple if they do. I wonder if zombie bites will carry a disease by default, and if it can potentially turn people into zombies?

I don't think Skill Training is the feat that grants Signature Skills. I think it will be a separate feat altogether. Not sure what the prereq will be on that one tho...

Rogue Class Preview wrote:


Rogue Feats
Bridging the gap between the murderous and the skillful are the various class feats available to the rogue. The few of you lucky enough to playtest the rogue at Gary Con X or the GAMA Trade Show became acquainted with Nimble Dodge, a reaction that increases the rogue's Armor Class by 2 at a whim.

It's a feat, so if you don't like it. Don't take it. :-)

I think Matthew shimmying up that construct was a general combat manoeuvre that Jason used.

That Zombie fight was intense. I guess from Jason's tone that their bites carried the disease by default. And since the Disease would stack with crits and the like... Multiple bites later... You're a zombie. ugh...
Imagine if they were Fast Plague Zombies... o_O
If that's what the monsters are like in PF2, then that's awesome!!


Captain Morgan:
To be fair, I don't think we actually will, but the vote on whether to participate in the Open Playtest was won by the 'Ayes'. I suspect that may change when they actually see the new rules, however.

FuzzyPaws: Maybe, but the fact that ALL the classes now follow a uniform progression will hopefully mean that the remaining Class Features are roughly balanced against each other which will aid in stripping them down for our campaigns (Obviously we'll go RAW for the Playtest itself).


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Fuzzypaws wrote:
Quandary wrote:
Iron_Matt17 wrote:

Fighter:

10+Con HP
Aggressive Shield: Whenever you shield block, you push the enemy back 5 ft or make the enemy flat footed for 1 round. Enemies choice.
Enemy's choice is interesting change to norm of 3.x/PRPG. Wonder if this type of thing will be more common.

Considering how resistant Paizo is to letting you reposition enemies into danger zones or off cliff edges, this may be their compromise. Instead of having several extra lines of text in every forced movement ability telling the player not to have fun, they make it enemy's choice.

Usually someone will choose to become flat footed rather than fall off a ledge, but if they can mitigate falling and the alternative is a round of full attacks from the party circling around them, well. Falling may be preferable. Likewise they may choose to be moved back into a firepit if it won't actually faze them.

I actually see it as more of defensive/tanking ability. Remember you can't take 5ft-steps in the middle of a full-attack anymore. So if they try to attack you more than once, blocking with your shield will either deny them their next attack because they have to close the distance again or make them an easier target for your retaliation.


Blave wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
Quandary wrote:
Iron_Matt17 wrote:

Fighter:

10+Con HP
Aggressive Shield: Whenever you shield block, you push the enemy back 5 ft or make the enemy flat footed for 1 round. Enemies choice.
Enemy's choice is interesting change to norm of 3.x/PRPG. Wonder if this type of thing will be more common.

Considering how resistant Paizo is to letting you reposition enemies into danger zones or off cliff edges, this may be their compromise. Instead of having several extra lines of text in every forced movement ability telling the player not to have fun, they make it enemy's choice.

Usually someone will choose to become flat footed rather than fall off a ledge, but if they can mitigate falling and the alternative is a round of full attacks from the party circling around them, well. Falling may be preferable. Likewise they may choose to be moved back into a firepit if it won't actually faze them.

I actually see it as more of defensive/tanking ability. Remember you can't take 5ft-steps in the middle of a full-attack anymore. So if they try to attack you more than once, blocking with your shield will either deny them their next attack because they have to close the distance again or make them an easier target for your retaliation.

Good thinking, so it makes them choose between being flat footed for a round or using an action to move back. That’s pretty useful and makes the previous choice of taking the shield block feat and using your action to raise the shield and reaction to absorb the blow more worthwhile.

Silver Crusade

YAY! Scaling monsters!

Silver Crusade

But, huh +5 on Grapple checks and Touch attacks? Hmm...

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Rysky wrote:
But, huh +5 on Grapple checks and Touch attacks? Hmm...

Those are likely the total bonuses. Sounds about right for Ezren from my play of him at the UK Games Expo, rather than an additional +5. In a game with the tightness of PF2, +5 is a huge bonus.

Silver Crusade

Ahhhhh that sounds better , Thankies.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Yolande d'Bar wrote:
Why would total defense be gone?
At a guess it's because options which were never a good idea short of a really specific build/situation are the first to get the axe in the new edition.

Given how quite a few adventurers only survived being splatted over the last years by going desperately into total defense in my games, I'm not sure if I'd call total defense "never a good idea". I'm also a bit surprised that it seems to be gone in PF2E.


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magnuskn wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Yolande d'Bar wrote:
Why would total defense be gone?
At a guess it's because options which were never a good idea short of a really specific build/situation are the first to get the axe in the new edition.
Given how quite a few adventurers only survived being splatted over the last years by going desperately into total defense in my games, I'm not sure if I'd call total defense "never a good idea". I'm also a bit surprised that it seems to be gone in PF2E.

I think it's going to be hard to balance with the 2e action economy. If it's 2 actions, you can still attack and full defense. If it's three actions, you can't move that round, even with a five foot step. If the action allows you to move as a part of it, it might be framed as more of a 'dodging run' type of thing, possibly even as an upgrade to the withdraw action.

Liberty's Edge

Captain Morgan wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
Iron_Matt17 wrote:
Escaping the grab was an Athletics check vs. The Plague Zombie's Fort + 10.
This seems like a little much. Because of the way the math scales evenly now, this is going to be very difficult to escape unless you roll a natural 20, or outlevel the zombie by quite a bit. Am I missing something there?
It's fortitude bonus +10, not fortitude DC+10. The fort DC is already fort +10.

Yeah, I ended up realizing this while trying to get to sleep last night: I thought they were saying that it was the Zombie's Fortitude DC +10, but it's just their Fortitude DC. I just misunderstood what they were trying to say... I guess it will take time for people to get used to using the new terms.


Tholomyes wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Yolande d'Bar wrote:
Why would total defense be gone?
At a guess it's because options which were never a good idea short of a really specific build/situation are the first to get the axe in the new edition.
Given how quite a few adventurers only survived being splatted over the last years by going desperately into total defense in my games, I'm not sure if I'd call total defense "never a good idea". I'm also a bit surprised that it seems to be gone in PF2E.
I think it's going to be hard to balance with the 2e action economy. If it's 2 actions, you can still attack and full defense. If it's three actions, you can't move that round, even with a five foot step. If the action allows you to move as a part of it, it might be framed as more of a 'dodging run' type of thing, possibly even as an upgrade to the withdraw action.

It's really hard for me to imagine there's no default defensive maneuver unless you have a shield. That just can't be right, can it?

But you're analysis makes me wonder because if shields require a hand & an Action to get +2 AC and the ability to get DR once w/ a Reaction, then PF1 Full Defense feels too powerful. It also makes me wonder how Combat Expertise & attacking defensively balance in this tighter system, if they exist that is.

Options:
-A "Defense" action which gives a +1 AC.
-Several "Defense" actions giving +1 AC per action used that turn.
-A use of Acrobatics (possibly via Skill Feat) which gives a further +1 to the "Defense" option. If usable once per "Defense" action, then tag on a -5 penalty per use, and maybe a repercussion for failure. (This may get too powerful unless the DC scales, perhaps by monster faced?)
-A use of Acrobatics (possibly via Skill Feat) which uses an Action then allows the character to use its Reaction for an AC bonus. (At higher levels this may even unlock the ability to dodge a blow.)
-A "Parry" action. Not the great version with a Riposte, and maybe not even a good one of attack vs. attack to block (at least not w/o a feat or class ability), but a mediocre Parry that lets a character use an Action to allow for a Reaction that gives a bonus to AC vs. one attack.
I suppose this could be a "Dodge" maneuver too.

Thoughts?


Castilliano wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Yolande d'Bar wrote:
Why would total defense be gone?
At a guess it's because options which were never a good idea short of a really specific build/situation are the first to get the axe in the new edition.
Given how quite a few adventurers only survived being splatted over the last years by going desperately into total defense in my games, I'm not sure if I'd call total defense "never a good idea". I'm also a bit surprised that it seems to be gone in PF2E.
I think it's going to be hard to balance with the 2e action economy. If it's 2 actions, you can still attack and full defense. If it's three actions, you can't move that round, even with a five foot step. If the action allows you to move as a part of it, it might be framed as more of a 'dodging run' type of thing, possibly even as an upgrade to the withdraw action.

It's really hard for me to imagine there's no default defensive maneuver unless you have a shield. That just can't be right, can it?

But you're analysis makes me wonder because if shields require a hand & an Action to get +2 AC and the ability to get DR once w/ a Reaction, then PF1 Full Defense feels too powerful. It also makes me wonder how Combat Expertise & attacking defensively balance in this tighter system, if they exist that is.

Options:
-A "Defense" action which gives a +1 AC.
-Several "Defense" actions giving +1 AC per action used that turn.
-A use of Acrobatics (possibly via Skill Feat) which gives a further +1 to the "Defense" option. If usable once per "Defense" action, then tag on a -5 penalty per use, and maybe a repercussion for failure. (This may get too powerful unless the DC scales, perhaps by monster faced?)
-A use of Acrobatics (possibly via Skill Feat) which uses an Action then allows the character to use its Reaction for an AC bonus. (At higher levels this may even unlock the ability to dodge a blow.)
-A "Parry" action. Not the great version with...

We also know that rogues can get nimble dodge, a reaction for +2 AC vs one attack. And there is a feat that allows you to raise shield as a reaction. So +2 AC as a reaction is worth a feat and any sort of default needs to be weaker. I think something like a readied dodge action. Action on turn allows a reaction for +2 AC vs a single attack.


Castilliano wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Yolande d'Bar wrote:
Why would total defense be gone?
At a guess it's because options which were never a good idea short of a really specific build/situation are the first to get the axe in the new edition.
Given how quite a few adventurers only survived being splatted over the last years by going desperately into total defense in my games, I'm not sure if I'd call total defense "never a good idea". I'm also a bit surprised that it seems to be gone in PF2E.
I think it's going to be hard to balance with the 2e action economy. If it's 2 actions, you can still attack and full defense. If it's three actions, you can't move that round, even with a five foot step. If the action allows you to move as a part of it, it might be framed as more of a 'dodging run' type of thing, possibly even as an upgrade to the withdraw action.

It's really hard for me to imagine there's no default defensive maneuver unless you have a shield. That just can't be right, can it?

But you're analysis makes me wonder because if shields require a hand & an Action to get +2 AC and the ability to get DR once w/ a Reaction, then PF1 Full Defense feels too powerful. It also makes me wonder how Combat Expertise & attacking defensively balance in this tighter system, if they exist that is.

Options:
-A "Defense" action which gives a +1 AC.
-Several "Defense" actions giving +1 AC per action used that turn.
-A use of Acrobatics (possibly via Skill Feat) which gives a further +1 to the "Defense" option. If usable once per "Defense" action, then tag on a -5 penalty per use, and maybe a repercussion for failure. (This may get too powerful unless the DC scales, perhaps by monster faced?)
-A use of Acrobatics (possibly via Skill Feat) which uses an Action then allows the character to use its Reaction for an AC bonus. (At higher levels this may even unlock the ability to dodge a blow.)
-A "Parry" action. Not the great version with...

I would be happy with any of the above possibilities, as long as Parry isn't the only choice.

I want there to be a viable action for, say, a Commoner or ordinary NPC to use in a combat situation, so I don't want all defensive possibilities tied to feats or gear (implying special training).

I would also be totally cool with Withdraw and Total Defense being folded together i.e. You can use all 3 actions to move up to your speed, leaving your starting space doesn't provoke reactions, and you get some bonus to AC until the start of your next turn. If you don't move at all, you could still get the AC bonus.

Total Defense, like Delay, are crucial at my table to keeping combats running quickly because they don't pressure a slow-to-decide Player to decide on Something when put on the spot, they can always go Total Defense, or else Delay and come in later.

(Whether or not these are optimal actions is completely beside the point for me--they keep my game running faster.)


Delay is still a thing. I also know that you can spend two actions to "make up" your own reaction. I don't know if you can make a defence type reaction, the only types that I saw at the Delve tables was the "if an enemy comes within my threat range, I attack" The action economy is very fluid Yolande, so it's easy to mould it around what the players want to do.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I wouldn't mind a Defensive action that plays with iteratives.

So you can get +2/+1/+0 for it but it counts as an attack for iterative purposes. So I could do Defensive Manouvre for +2 AC then attack at -5. Or I could attack at full, then do the defensive for +1 etc.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm preeeetty sure we got some info that there's gonna be a "take cover" action that allows you to gain a bonus to AC, but I think it will be terrain dependent. There are also weapons with the blocking trait that will let you spend actions to raise AC. But I'm not sure if there will be a defensive action in a vacuum sans terrain, equipment, or special class features.

And to be honest, I'm not sure if there should be. as long we have so many options? Like, the basic assumption is that you are always doing your darndest to not get stabbed or cut down. A random unarmed commoner doesn't really have a great way to do this other than running away. Give them a shield or train them on how to deflect attacks, and they will be better off.


Considering putting up a shield is an action to give you +2 AC, an option to simply fight defensively would need to be weaker, since it doesn't require an investment like the shield does.

I feel it might be difficult to be weaker while still being useful.


I doubt fighting defensively will absorb damage like shields.

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