Ranger Class Preview

Monday, July 2, 2018

Rangers have a long tradition in heroic adventure. Whether they're portrayed as lone striders keeping the edges of the wilderness free of the threats that lurch forth from the world's shadows, as hunters tracking down fugitives or beasts, or as skilled archers serving as a scouting force for a local lord or group of village elders, rangers have a special place in our fantastical imagination.

For the Pathfinder Playtest, we decided to cleave closer to the core principles of the ranger—a rough and tumble warrior in the wild, possibly of the wild himself. Because of this, the most significant change we made to the class was that it no longer has spellcasting ability, at least as a default. Of course, this doesn't mean we have to abandon this aspect of the Pathfinder First Edition ranger forever. Because of the way classes are now structured, it would be easy to create a spellcasting build of the ranger later using Spell Points (like the paladin), but for the Playtest, we are trying out a a spell-less ranger.

But enough of what the ranger doesn't have. Let's take a look at what he does.

Ranger Features

First and foremost, the ranger is a hunter. In Pathfinder First Edition, you picked creature types or subtypes that you were skilled at hunting. There are few things more frustrating than playing a ranger who rarely—or worst of all, never—encounters their favored enemies. It also led to some players who tended to play in more human-centric campaigns picking the human subtype, even if their backgrounds may have pointed to better choices for favored enemies.

This time we made the ranger hunting ability a bit more flexible, based on some popular ideas from the guide archetype and the slayer's studied target. At 1st level, rangers gain the Hunt Target feature.

[[A]] Hunt Target

Ranger

Requirements You can see or hear the target.

You designate a single creature within 100 feet as your target and focus your attacks against that creature. While hunting that creature, you gain benefits for focusing your attacks. As long as all your attacks in a round are against the target you're hunting, the multiple attack penalty you take on the second attack is -4 (-3 with an agile weapon) instead of -5, and -8 (-6 with an agile weapon) instead of -10 on the third and any further attacks in the round. You also ignore the penalty for making ranged attacks against the target you're hunting within your second range increment. You also gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Perception checks when you Seek your target and a +2 circumstance bonus to Survival checks when you Track your target.

You can have only one creature designated as the target of your hunt at a time. If you use Hunt Target against a creature when you already have a creature designated, the prior creature loses the designation and the new target gains the designation. In any case, this designation lasts until your next daily preparation.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

There are many class feats and some higher-level abilities that augment the ranger's Hunt Target. For example, at 17th level, the masterful hunter feature decreases the ranger's multiple attack penalty to -3 (or -2 with agile weapon) with his second attack and -6 (or -4 with agile weapons) on his third or further attack, and he can ignore the penalty against the target of his hunt in the second or third range increment, assuming that he has at least master proficiency in the weapon he is. Speaking of which, like the fighter, the ranger gains weapon mastery for a group of weapons, though he gains it at 13th level instead of at 3rd level like the fighter. At 19th level, the ranger gains the swift target feature, which allows him to use Hunt Target as a free action triggered before he makes his first Strike each round, so he's never without a target to hunt! The specifics of the Hunt Target ability make the ranger excel at a variety of combat styles, especially his traditional two-weapon fighting (since you can decrease the multiple attack penalty with agile attacks to be incredibly small) and archery (since you eliminate some of the most common ranged increment penalties). Of course, a ranger with a less traditional style, like a greatsword with a reduced multiple attack penalty, works great too!

Other class features allow the ranger to stalk and avoid his foes. At 5th level, he gains trackless step. At 7th level, he gains evasion (followed by improved evasion at 15th level). He gains nature's edge at 9th level, which allows him to treat enemies in natural difficult terrain or in difficult terrain resulting from a snare (more on snares later!) as flat-footed. Come 11th level, he gains the wild stride feature, which allows him to ignore or minimize the effects of difficult terrain.

Ranger Feats

Class feats, of course, determine the flavor of individuals within a class, and the ranger is no different. Specific ranger feats allow him to gain an animal companion at the same progression as a druid's, though potentially with special benefits that only a ranger can obtain. Other feats will enable him to further focus on his weapon choice, including a whole string of feats that allow him to specialize in two-weapon fighting.

Some fun feats allow the ranger to use his knowledge and senses to aid his allies as well as himself. Here are a couple of my favorites.

Monster Hunter Feat 1

Ranger

When you critically succeed to identify a target you're hunting with Recall Knowledge, you (and your allies, if you tell them) gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your next attack roll against it, but not against other creatures of that species. The creature is bolstered.

[[F]] Scout's Warning Feat 4

Ranger

Trigger You are about to roll Perception for initiative.

You audibly or visually warn your allies of danger, granting them a +1 circumstance bonus to their initiative rolls.

Harkening back to the hunter's bond class feature in Pathfinder First Edition, these feats allow the ranger to support the rest of the group with increased flexibility in how he chooses to do so, and these are just a few. The ranger can expand on Monster Hunter to grant even more benefits with a successful Recall Knowledge and even share the benefits of Hunt Target with other PCs (pretty much any martial class will love this benefit). And while flanking-savvy fighters might be a rogue's traditional best friend, the 12th-level Distracting Shot feat allows the ranger who hits a target with two ranged attacks in the same turn to leave that critter flat-footed until the start of the ranger's next turn. This helps fast rogues bring the pain quickly and farther away from more heavily armored support.

Another group of feats allows you to create snares. (Told you I'd get to that!)

Snares

Like alchemy, the ability to create snares is granted by a general feat (Snare Crafting). And like alchemists, rangers have the potential to lift general snare crafting to greater heights.

What are snares? Well, they're small portable hazards, very similar to traps, which can be set up in a short period of time (usually 1 minute). While it's unlikely that you will set up a snare in the midst of combat, they are perfect tools to arrange a battleground to your advantage. For instance, remember the nature's edge class feature that allows you to treat enemies in difficult terrain as flat-footed? Here's the most basic snare that creates difficult terrain.

Slowing Snare Snare 1

Consumable, Mechanical, Snare, Trap

Price 2 gp

A square with this snare becomes difficult terrain when the first creature enters it, and then it is destroyed.

Other snares set off alarms, trip, or deal damage to those entering the area of a snare. Grab some alchemical items, and you can deal even more damage with a snare.

Freezing Snare Snare 8

Cold, Consumable, Mechanical, Snare, Trap

Price 50 gp

You set a trio of liquid ice bombs to explode in unison when a creature enters the freezing snare's square. The target must attempt a DC 22 Reflexsave.

Success The target takes 1d8 cold damage.

Critical Success The target is unaffected.

Failure The target takes 3d8 cold damage and is hampered 10 until the end of its next turn.

Critical Failure The target takes 6d8 cold damage and is hampered 10 until the end of its next turn.

Craft Requirements three vials of liquid ice

Ranger feats that deal with snares allow you to learn more of them as your Crafting rank increases, lets you set them up faster (even in the middle of combat), and increases snares' DCs to match your class DC. Always make sure that your allies know where you hid your snares, or no bonus to attack rolls or initiative that you grant them will make up for the damage and humiliation you might cause.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Designer

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Tags: Harsk Pathfinder Playtest Rangers Wayne Reynolds
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Cyouni wrote:
Since you can drop a trap in a single action

They can't do this out of the box. We don't know the level and other requirements you need get that ability.


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Good point re: medicine skill feat. I'll be interested to see how much it can handle and what else has to be taken to achieve it.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
John Lynch 106 wrote:
Igwilly wrote:
CrystalSeas wrote:


I always found it strange that my 'mountain man' survivalist ranger had to also be a spellslinger, which was confusing and impossible for me to work into my understanding of such characters.

That's what I'm saying about 3.X and PF1's ranger: it got his spells out of nowhere. There was not much (if any) explanation behind this.

Of course, the previous explanation was lost in the edition change, so we had spellscaters that got spells from the game's designer itself just so an old artifact, which made no sense now, could be maintained.
If people want Rangers with divine magic, at least give Rangers a pretty good reason to have so.
What I want is the option to have rangers who brew potions and poultices and such to take on the healer role without being a spellcaster. I expect I'll just have to be satisfied with ritual casting.

I mean, that appears to be anyone who invests in the right skill feats in PF2.

EDIT: Swordsage'd, I see.


Joana wrote:


It's not one target per day; it's one target at a time. You can switch it as many times as you want during the day. "Okay, that thing's dead; now it's your turn." Or even, "Damn, that thing looks more dangerous than the thing I was fighting; forget that other thing."

Maybe I misread, it's the following line that tripped me up. Thanks for explaining.

Blog wrote:
In any case, this designation lasts until your next daily preparation.

It should say "this designation lasts until you select a new target or until your next daily preparation".

The question is, how do you change your designated target? Is it an action? Can you do it in the middle of a round? If so, what prevents every target from being a designated target?


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I wonder if Rangers can get sudden charge, because the mental image of a Dwarf Ranger pointing at someone and shouting "YOU!" then charging them with axe raised high is deeply amusing to me.

I mean, you can always Hunt, Stride, and Strike but ... stubby little legs.


graystone wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
Since you can drop a trap in a single action
They can't do this out of the box. We don't know the level and other requirements you need get that ability.

Fair. I think the minimum level it would be theoretically possible is level 4 - requires a general feat at level 3, and a class feat to enable. It's still likely to be doable before level 10, though.


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Jason S wrote:
Joana wrote:


It's not one target per day; it's one target at a time. You can switch it as many times as you want during the day. "Okay, that thing's dead; now it's your turn." Or even, "Damn, that thing looks more dangerous than the thing I was fighting; forget that other thing."

Maybe I misread, it's the following line that tripped me up. Thanks for explaining.

Blog wrote:
In any case, this designation lasts until your next daily preparation.

It should say "this designation lasts until you select a new target or until your next daily preparation".

The question is, how do you change your designated target? Is it an action? Can you do it in the middle of a round? If so, what prevents every target from being a designated target?

If you look at the header for the ability, it costs an action. It also has this:

Blog wrote:
If you use Hunt Target against a creature when you already have a creature designated, the prior creature loses the designation and the new target gains the designation.

It'd be inefficient to keep constantly switching, given the bonus comes from all your attacks being on a single target.


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RiverMesa wrote:

Re: No spellcasting.

Honestly, as far as spellcasting classes go, thematically I feel like the Ranger is the one that
a) it makes the least sense on, compared to many other classes - you couldn't take it away from a druid, paladin or especially wizard or cleric without basically ruining the class, but a mundane ranger seems very doable, especially considering the next point:

b) is the most easily replaced with more thematically (and mechanically) apt alternatives - be it animal companions, traps/snares, or all the other survivalist-ish stuff that rangers get/got throughout the editions (whether it's favored terrain/enemy, or natural explorer) that is ultimately non-magical in nature.

Again I fully realize I might be biased (but so is pretty much everyone else in these discussions, one way or the other), but I'm really not attached to the idea of rangers/hunters/slayers/woodsmen using magic (either within the context of D&D-heritage RPGs, or in fantasy fiction at large), and I'm fully convinced that you can absolutely make the class feel distinct and strong, without resorting to giving it magic.

That being said, I do hope that the option for spellcasting arises quickly after or even during the Playtest (though that doesn't seem all too likely), but I'm totally okay with spell-less being the de facto default, and what we get to play with during the Playtest, starting next month.

Agreed largely with all of this, but I will say I do also hope that spell-point spellcasting comes out at least by core. I've always been bugged by the lack of equivalent options for what would now be Primal magic. Where traditional divine and arcane casters get both 9th level spontaneous and prepared casters, each with their own flavor, plus 6 level prepared and spontaneous casters, one more skill focused and one more combat focused, and 4th level, full BAB casters, not to mention the doubling up that arcane got with Witches, and Skalds, and the extras with Arcanists and Summoners. In 1e, well, Druids, Hunters, Rangers and maybe Shamans (who to be honest, despite the name, were not really a fit). If 2e doubles down on this even more, I'll be disappointed.


Cyouni wrote:
graystone wrote:
Cyouni wrote:
Since you can drop a trap in a single action
They can't do this out of the box. We don't know the level and other requirements you need get that ability.
Fair. I think the minimum level it would be theoretically possible is level 4 - requires a general feat at level 3, and a class feat to enable. It's still likely to be doable before level 10, though.

Being low level would be great and help make it more viable: I don't know if it will be though as lots of things seems to be pushed back quite a lot. [6th level for Precise Bomb feat for instance]


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I feel like one of the things about "making play viable for all 20 levels" is that by default characters level up faster than before.

So "this ability doesn't unlock until level x" doesn't mean what it did before. It took a really long time to reach level 20 in PF1.


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graystone wrote:
I'm getting this impression too: it seems like they are trying to cover the hybrids in the base classes options.

It looks very much like it. The barbarian preview had some things that felt like bloodrager-like abilities; ditto the monk and brawler; and the ranger has some slayer and hunter-like qualities. Mark's comment earlier made it sound like- even if not necessarily a conscious design choice- a hunter-like character could already be built with the playtest version of the ranger.


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Cyouni wrote:
That seems simple enough - just skill feat into Medicine. You don't even need it in-class anymore, though that would certainly be eased if Medicine was a signature skill.

I've been wondering if there is alternate skill-path hinging on Nature or Survival, at least letting you use Proficiency of other... Doesn't even need to be as good at healing vanilla HP damage, but could help for Poison/Disease/Conditions...???


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean the biggest problem with the Ranger's spellcasting in PF1 was that it's not spontaneous. If you made it like the Bloodrager (nobody had a problem with the Bloodrager's spellcasting) people wouldn't have minded.

But it's a waste of mental energy for a 7th level character to have to figure out what 3 spells they can cast today.

Would've made it much worse for me. I hated the fact that they got spells in the first place, but at least the option of leaving a couple blank and maybe running into one of those few situations where the unique ranger spells could serve as a great counter to a problem meant having the feature might have lead to fun moments, even if it did tax my concept to have them.

Spontaneous spellcasting with that list would've meant I pick the same small list of useful spells and all of the situational ones would've just wasted space for me. Spontaneous casting only works if the list of good spells is suitably large or significantly augmented by class features. PF1's ranger fit neither criteria. Spontaneous casting would just push me to ranger++ slayer even more.


I think they handled this well. Keeping some of the more relevant aspects of the core identity and eschewing others.

I welcome the change to Favoured Enemy (while still mourning the loss of flavour) in favour of a more generally applicable ability. An ability that improves the multi-attack action costs while costing an action feels like a kick in the nads. With other features also requiring actions to initiate, I worry that Rangers will have to spend a round setting up in combat or not being able to adjust tactics without a big cost. I wonder if there is a class feat that grants extra actions for the first round of combat upon winning initiative...

I was of two minds about the loss of spells. For me, they were all about utility. Then I remembered skill feats and the ones that will be signature for the Ranger will likely have effects that mirror those low level utility spells so I'm cool with it now. Still like having the option of spells though.

One archetype I always wanted to try with the Ranger was a Warden, guardian of nature. Basically a nature themed tank. Is that doable in the current frame of class feats. Like, are there feats chaining of Hunt Target that are more defensive?

EDIT: Also on spell-less, I forgot about trinkets and the utility they'd add!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Things I like:

No Spells...yay

Snares seem interesting, although given they are not a built in feature on the class, an odd item to preview here

Things I am disappointed in:

Favored enemy seemed thematically a much better fit for Rangers than the Hunt ability previewed here, which just seems in general to be related to martial prowess. Also no mention of favored terrain. I like both aspects of the ranger, and would rather see those elements return in some form, even if the new math requires significant adjustments to these abilities.

Which in turn really seems to be forcing and doubling down on the ranger being the class to go for two weapon fighting. Whereas I would prefer Ranger to be the go to class for folks wanting to do a woodsman character. Hopefully Archery will be just as powerful an option


Prep vs. Spontaneous issues for Ranger seemed resolvable by Arcanist style casting. YMMV.
EDIT: I get impression 4-level casters will be Spell Points based, which is basically Spontaneous, though.
I think issue re: niche spells could be addressed by making those options broader,
so for given power selection you get A B C abilities usable in different situations in different ways.
(hopefully somewhat thematically linked, but in mechanically distinct applications that give broader usage)
Whereas if you get the Lead Blades, then yeah that's probably all you're getting, brah.


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I do agree that spell point casting for rangers should be an option in core. I don't know if I'd use it, but enough other people like it and it's got enough of a legacy that tacking it on in a later book feels awkward.

Also, I can't believe I'd completely forgotten Favored Terrain. That one *does* seem weird to lose, as it's much more thematic with the archetypal ranger, and (unlike Favored Enemy) outside of PFS it was fairly easy to pick a terrain that you'd be in for the majority of an AP or module. Really hope there are class feats to bring back some semblance of that.

Agree with the suggestion upthread that Hunt Target should provide some bonuses while actually *hunting* the target, in addition to in combat. Dunno if it should be baseline, or a feat, but I love the concept of being able to use Hunt Target just from a footprint or a fallen feather or a stool or what have you, and get bonuses to track it/the ability to make knowledge checks in advance without penalty.

Wonder if we'll get an animal companion post next? Seems about time...


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I never liked how Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain basically asked you to guess who and where you're going to be fighting for the entirety of the campaign. Sometimes this is pretty doable, but it's a bit of a big ask.

I can do without "good choices for favored terrain/enemies for this campaign include" in Player's Companions.


Isn't there stuff like Jungle Lore now? (skill for anybody)


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I like the new Ranger is more of a team player. It kind of drives home the concept of Ranger being a profession, as well as a class. You'd want to hire one of these guys to keep you alive because he notices stuff the fighter doesn't.

I wonder if Rangers can get (or will want) Double Slice, if they can reduce agile penalties so low. I suppose they are still better off with it?


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I never liked how Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain basically asked you to guess who and where you're going to be fighting for the entirety of the campaign. Sometimes this is pretty doable, but it's a bit of a big ask.

I can do without "good choices for favored terrain/enemies for this campaign include" in Player's Companions.

Agreed. I also hated 'is that guy a [blank]? 'How about [blank]'? 'How bout the disguised guy? Yeah I know we couldn't see through the disguise but somehow rangers have a 'spider sense' and somehow get bonuses without IDing targets'.

Or 'You said this terrain is farest but if I move over 2 squares into the creek is that a water terrain?' 'I'm in a building underground, underground or urban [or in a city sewer]. WHich terrain?'

Just endless questions that need answering along with meta info [if the DM tells you a +3 vs an unidentified target, it's not hard to look at your sheet and figure out which favored enemy matches].


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I never liked how Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain basically asked you to guess who and where you're going to be fighting for the entirety of the campaign. Sometimes this is pretty doable, but it's a bit of a big ask.

I can do without "good choices for favored terrain/enemies for this campaign include" in Player's Companions.

Fair. I don't think it needs to return in its current iteration, necessarily, but I'll be disappointed if rangers don't have any real terrain mastery stuff. Maybe instead of selecting from a list, just a feat that gives different thematic bonuses in different terrain types? I feel like I remember 5e doing something like that for rangers or druids, although I don't have the book on hand to check.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I find this blog disappointing.

-Skeld


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worldhopper wrote:

I do agree that spell point casting for rangers should be an option in core. I don't know if I'd use it, but enough other people like it and it's got enough of a legacy that tacking it on in a later book feels awkward.

Also, I can't believe I'd completely forgotten Favored Terrain. That one *does* seem weird to lose, as it's much more thematic with the archetypal ranger, and (unlike Favored Enemy) outside of PFS it was fairly easy to pick a terrain that you'd be in for the majority of an AP or module. Really hope there are class feats to bring back some semblance of that.

Agree with the suggestion upthread that Hunt Target should provide some bonuses while actually *hunting* the target, in addition to in combat. Dunno if it should be baseline, or a feat, but I love the concept of being able to use Hunt Target just from a footprint or a fallen feather or a stool or what have you, and get bonuses to track it/the ability to make knowledge checks in advance without penalty.

Wonder if we'll get an animal companion post next? Seems about time...

I feel like that hunting stuff sounds like Survival Skill feats, which I'm sure will be popular for the Ranger but not exclusive to them. Though there might be some way for Hunt Target to tie into that as well.


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An interesting interaction just occured to me. A Ranger may default to Double Slice, especially when dealing with Resistance... But if he's fighting something with an exploitable weakness he can just use the Hunt Target agile bonus to simply make separate strikes and exploit that damage more than once.

That's a neat little way for them to really be able to tailor their offense to what they are fighting in a way other classes can't. If there are more things like that, they have basically made Favored Enemy something you can act out in combat rather than some flat numbers on everything you roll. You are just better at exploiting an enemy weakness.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
worldhopper wrote:

I do agree that spell point casting for rangers should be an option in core. I don't know if I'd use it, but enough other people like it and it's got enough of a legacy that tacking it on in a later book feels awkward.

Also, I can't believe I'd completely forgotten Favored Terrain. That one *does* seem weird to lose, as it's much more thematic with the archetypal ranger, and (unlike Favored Enemy) outside of PFS it was fairly easy to pick a terrain that you'd be in for the majority of an AP or module. Really hope there are class feats to bring back some semblance of that.

Agree with the suggestion upthread that Hunt Target should provide some bonuses while actually *hunting* the target, in addition to in combat. Dunno if it should be baseline, or a feat, but I love the concept of being able to use Hunt Target just from a footprint or a fallen feather or a stool or what have you, and get bonuses to track it/the ability to make knowledge checks in advance without penalty.

Wonder if we'll get an animal companion post next? Seems about time...

I feel like that hunting stuff sounds like Survival Skill feats, which I'm sure will be popular for the Ranger but not exclusive to them. Though there might be some way for Hunt Target to tie into that as well.
Hunt Target wrote:
You also gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Perception checks when you Seek your target and a +2 circumstance bonus to Survival checks when you Track your target.

This could be what you are looking for...


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I've noticed a theme running along these class previews:

Mostly, it's how the feat system allows for a lot of class build flexibility, but also how the first level feat encourages the type of that class you want to build. The Ranger can go into, presumably, spells, but also certain weapon specializations, animal companion, teamwork, or snares. Each seems to have more feats that build into that type, so what you choose first can put you into that direction.

Spell feats help other spell feats by giving you more spell points, weapon specialization feats allows your weapon attacks to be better so they naturally build upon themselves, I imagine there are further animal companion feats to improve your animal companion, there seems to be snare feats that build on your snares, teamwork feats seems to build upon themselves the least although there could be stuff there too. So it can be quite beneficial to choose a direction and commit, but there still room to go for versatility which may have its own advantages.

I had something else, but on further review, I'm less sure about it.


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Iron_Matt17 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
worldhopper wrote:

I do agree that spell point casting for rangers should be an option in core. I don't know if I'd use it, but enough other people like it and it's got enough of a legacy that tacking it on in a later book feels awkward.

Also, I can't believe I'd completely forgotten Favored Terrain. That one *does* seem weird to lose, as it's much more thematic with the archetypal ranger, and (unlike Favored Enemy) outside of PFS it was fairly easy to pick a terrain that you'd be in for the majority of an AP or module. Really hope there are class feats to bring back some semblance of that.

Agree with the suggestion upthread that Hunt Target should provide some bonuses while actually *hunting* the target, in addition to in combat. Dunno if it should be baseline, or a feat, but I love the concept of being able to use Hunt Target just from a footprint or a fallen feather or a stool or what have you, and get bonuses to track it/the ability to make knowledge checks in advance without penalty.

Wonder if we'll get an animal companion post next? Seems about time...

I feel like that hunting stuff sounds like Survival Skill feats, which I'm sure will be popular for the Ranger but not exclusive to them. Though there might be some way for Hunt Target to tie into that as well.
Hunt Target wrote:
You also gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Perception checks when you Seek your target and a +2 circumstance bonus to Survival checks when you Track your target.
This could be what you are looking for...

I believe Hopper meant that you should be able to select a target to Hunt without it being in sight, based on seeing a track or something. As is, you still need to come face to face with the beast (or close enough to it) to be able to then get the track bonus.

Not needing to be within 100 feet or see or hear the beast seems like something a feat might be able to do.


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I like it. Not too much to say really.


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Dragonborn3 wrote:
Vlorax wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:

You know... except for the loss of Favored Enemy(which is to be expected since it would have been SUPER strong in PF2 without changes) this is actually my favorite blog post so far.

Good job, Paizo people. :)

Addendum: Class features costing gold(or anything at all) in a setting that's suddenly using silver as its main currency is bad.
Snares aren't a class feature.
Sorry, 'feats' shouldn't cost gold in a primarily silver currency setting.

Yeah, using crafting feats for a +5 vorpal scimitar should cost like 9 silver and 9 copper. No more than that, though.


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I feel like one of the things about Snares costing money is that potentially these things could win a fight before it's done thereby eliminating any expenses needed to fight off attrition (e.g. healing) so they probably should not be "free" though I haven't seen enough items to know what a good cost is.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
KingOfAnything wrote:
BretI wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Notice that the glyph is in the header, right next to the name of the ability. That is way easier to find than a few words in the body of the ability. The glyphs I saw at least were instantly recognizable; they didn't require a context switch to understand and were easier to pick out when scanning the rules summaries than the subheadings (e.g. traits).

I make heavy use of PDFs when searching through the rules.

Will I be able to somehow search electronically for glyphs? I don't know of any way.

I'm not sure when you'd ever search a PDF for 'action'. Do you have an actual use case in mind?

Pretty sure you'll be searching for 'Ranger' or 'Survival' much more often. Once you find the list you want, seeing at a glance which options are free actions vs single or multiple actions is much more helpful than text searching would be.

PossibleCabbage made a similar point.

Use cases:

Search through the Ranger Class Feats for all that can be done as a Reaction. I could also do searches for things that take a single action.

Be able to actually read the things! There are plenty of cases in Paizo products where there are backgrounds that make it difficult to determine what a symbol is. With text on many modern electronic devices you have options for text to speech or copy and paste into a different document. The text to speech may not work with glyphs and the cut and paste would depend on exactly what metadata there is in the document.

Any tool that attempts to parse the class feats. Examples would include extracting the feats for inclusion in a database.

I also don’t like the glyphs they use in Starfinder.

I do not find them intuitive (especially the ellipsis used to indicate language dependent) and do not find the mystic symbol clear enough to be immediately recognized. Eventually I will learn to recognize the the dotted purple blob is the mystic symbol, but nothing about it immediately says Mystic to me.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

On the topic of Ranger spells, I always found them a little strange.

Herb lore, alchemy or medicine would all make more sense. A ranger finds the materials needed to make a special poultice to protect themselves and their companions from the extreme weather, or help them keep their grip when climbing, or any number of similar things.

Given what Mark has said about his barbarian with medicine skill, at least that part of it is possible for any class. Guess we will see what other things they allow via a combination of skill and class feats.


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I thought the base unit of currency in pf2 was silver, not gold? I remember a prestige class alternate-fullplate only cost 600 silver (60 gp), so if a basic snare costs 2 gp, and an advanced snare costs 50 gp---can PCs really afford that? Snares sound fun, but I doubt players will get to use them much. That's pretty much the downfall of the trapper ranger archetype in 1.0.


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Yeah, the liquid ice trap does feel a bit more like an alchemist/artificer deal, to me. I think traps made by rangers would be more like First Blood (really is a superb action film).


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I never liked how Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain basically asked you to guess who and where you're going to be fighting for the entirety of the campaign. Sometimes this is pretty doable, but it's a bit of a big ask.

I can do without "good choices for favored terrain/enemies for this campaign include" in Player's Companions.

Why not?

I mean if you're just okay with them removing the Favored Enemy/Terrain from ranger, I can still see reasons to give players a heads up of "This is the majority of your fights and this is the majority of your terrains" section in the Player guides.


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BretI wrote:

I also don’t like the glyphs they use in Starfinder.

I do not find them intuitive (especially the ellipsis used to indicate language dependent) and do not find the mystic symbol clear enough to be immediately recognized.

This. I didn't find starfinders glyphs a boon and think it actually takes longer to figure out what they mean than reading the ability and finding out that way. Maybe if I played to continually for long enough it'd click but I think I'd die of old age before that happened. :P


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Late to the party but, I like it. As I've liked most of the class previews.
It's cool that PF2 is moving away from everyone being traditional casters - it helps to give it it's own flavour and forces there to be more good non-spell options.


Unfortunately for me, the glyph/icon/symbol ship has sailed.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I feel like one of the things about Snares costing money is that potentially these things could win a fight before it's done thereby eliminating any expenses needed to fight off attrition (e.g. healing) so they probably should not be "free" though I haven't seen enough items to know what a good cost is.

Yeah, the cost to win fights is either as an investment (snares, etc.) or paying off the incurred debt (healing potions).


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Meophist wrote:
worldhopper wrote:

NEGATIVE:

-Monster Hunter looks, frankly, awful. I know a +1 means more in 2E, but for one attack roll, and only on a critical success? Take off one of those restrictions (either make it last the duration of the Hunt or make it proc on a regular success) and it might be worth taking.
Something that may be easy to miss is that you can give the bonus to your whole party, which means a +1 to your entire party's next attack, which could help with critical attacks.

Very much this. With the new crit rules, that +1 is a significant bonus. If there were a skill in PF1 that could (if you roll high enough) extend the whole party's critical threat range by 1, it would be worth taking - even if it only occasionally worked, it's a hell of a trick to pull off.


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Chest Rockwell wrote:
Unfortunately for me, the glyph/icon/symbol ship has sailed.

For the playtest at least. There is always hope for the finished product. If we're lucky, they'll take them out behind the woodshed and... send them off to a farm upstate...

Liberty's Edge

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I quite like it. Not much more to say beyond that.

I am quite hopeful to Ranger having some spell point stuff even in the core rulebook, but am perfectly happy to have the spell-less version for the playtest.


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graystone wrote:
Chest Rockwell wrote:
Unfortunately for me, the glyph/icon/symbol ship has sailed.
For the playtest at least. There is always hope for the finished product. If we're lucky, they'll take them out behind the woodshed and... send them off to a farm upstate...

Yeah, "...you gotta dream, baby..." *as said by Carlito Brigante/Al Pacino in Carlito's Way*; there have been threads about this, and a designer or two commented in those threads (they are aware of people with eye conditions, partially sighted/vision impaired, such as myself, and our concerns), so, we will see.


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I don't think I've ever played a Ranger in PF, and am hard-pressed to remember playing one ever. Most people I know seem to play Range-r characters that are totes not cowards and rarely scrap, "intelligently" taking the battle to higher ground and cover, shooting from afar and staying "safe". I guess someone needs to loot my body.

As such, I'm not too interested nor invested in them.

* Happy to see spells go the way of the dinosaurs.

* Snares might be fun. At low levels. Maybe even higher.

* There do seem to be some weird interactions with Hunting - you should be able to use it across a group without changing it from one to the other and losing it. With three actions, you should be able to carve one, two or three in one round to give them a sense you are a threat and that they should all come for you instead of the (mage/monk/dire threadbear).

*Abilities previewed as coming on-line at 13th, 17th or 19th level seems still as weird a choice as it was in the Rogue blog. Leveling up may well be different in PF2.

* I'm really getting the feeling that many old base classes will be repackaged as feat-builds or archetypes. A shame, but understandable.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

YAY for Spell-less in the playtest. Here's hoping for magical options in the CRB for those who enjoy it

On a more general note, a great benefit from the feats-based design IMO will be that all classes can gain from additions in new splatbooks when casters where the only ones to gain such rich variety of resources in PF1 thanks to new spells appearing in every new book

I will miss the flavor of extra-super-awesomeness that came with using your favored style on favored enemies in a favored terrain. I hope some combination of feats helps recreate it

That said the blog post is so threadbare that I will definitely need to see the playtest to get a feeling about the new Ranger and how my Ranger character can be ported to PF2 (especially Animal Companion stuff, including non-Animal type Companions)

Acquiring a new target as an Action will hurt the machine gun style when you are killing mooks by the hundreds. I hope there is some way you can retarget freely when your initial target goes down

Combat-worthy Snares are not essential to my concept of the Ranger and those in PF1 were highly disappointing. I will need to see how people like them to consider ever using them


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MerlinCross wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I never liked how Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain basically asked you to guess who and where you're going to be fighting for the entirety of the campaign. Sometimes this is pretty doable, but it's a bit of a big ask.

I can do without "good choices for favored terrain/enemies for this campaign include" in Player's Companions.

Why not?

I mean if you're just okay with them removing the Favored Enemy/Terrain from ranger, I can still see reasons to give players a heads up of "This is the majority of your fights and this is the majority of your terrains" section in the Player guides.

Well it comes down to before a game if a player asks the GM "what sorts of enemies will we be fighting? What sorts of places will we be in? Can you give me any sort of preview" comes in conflict with the GM wanting to hold things close to their vest.

So either you feel like you're doing a disservice to the ranger player by not telling them anything (because they might say "well, if you won't tell me I won't play a ranger"), or you're obligated to tip your hand before you want to.

Sure sometimes it's fine to say "we're gonna go into the jungle and murk some undead" but I don't think it's a good idea to create the expectation that players should know this stuff in advance.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I never liked how Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain basically asked you to guess who and where you're going to be fighting for the entirety of the campaign. Sometimes this is pretty doable, but it's a bit of a big ask.

I can do without "good choices for favored terrain/enemies for this campaign include" in Player's Companions.

Why not?

I mean if you're just okay with them removing the Favored Enemy/Terrain from ranger, I can still see reasons to give players a heads up of "This is the majority of your fights and this is the majority of your terrains" section in the Player guides.

Well it comes down to before a game if a player asks the GM "what sorts of enemies will we be fighting? What sorts of places will we be in? Can you give me any sort of preview" comes in conflict with the GM wanting to hold things close to their vest.

So either you feel like you're doing a disservice to the ranger player by not telling them anything (because they might say "well, if you won't tell me I won't play a ranger"), or you're obligated to tip your hand before you want to.

Sure sometimes it's fine to say "we're gonna go into the jungle and murk some undead" but I don't think it's a good idea to create the expectation that players should know this stuff in advance.

True, it's a fine line, I had a fey-themed 3rd Ed campaign, and a player chose the Spirit Shaman as his class.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

As someone to who Ranger was their second favourite class (after Barbarian), I’m perfectly happy to have Snares instead of Spells. I never used spellcasting in 1st or DnD 3rd on mine aside from using wands of CLW. Snares on the other hand actually look interesting and I can’t wait to see what all they can do.

(Slightly more biased than I would be normally since I’ve been playing a lot of Monster Hunter World :3)


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Your one shot is not going to one-hit-kill enemies, but hitting like a greatsword is still pretty good for a ranged attack. I had a player who went with the crossbow style ranger and made it as big one-hit as possible with a heavy crossbow. This caused eyebrow-raising amounts of damage, especially on crits, but the player was frustrated when his dice went on a bad streak because with just one shot, he didn't have the same number of chances as everyone else to keep rolling until he saw a high number; even though the overall damage was extremely solid for such a mobile ranged character, that style is not for everyone, and if getting frustrated when you bank it in one shot and miss sounds like you, I'd recommend going more machine gun arrow style.

So are you saying crossbows are now an actually viable option? Nice.

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