So... Someone ratted me out at work. I can't go to any sites other than Google, Pandora, and the work page without the IT department getting me fired. And, much like tabletop gaming, my real life destroys any opportunity or option to continue.

In short: I am really sorry to all of you fine folks, but this game isn't going to happen. Truly, I'm sorry I got all of your hopes up, made you make characters, then had this happen. Best of luck on your future endeavors, though! See you in the funny papers, I suppose.

AH! I see now. I was just using the rebuild rules: I didn't bother with the table. That is an odd situation :/
We'll just run with the table then, as that's what you built the character with. Did you make all other adjustments as needed?

Wasn't the dungeon suppose to be +1 CR originally? So, is it +2 CR now?

I'm fine with that. Just trying to clarify...

Yup. ECL3 dungeon. Don't worry though: the random generator is far more kind than I would be lol

At least, if SAMAS turns up, too. If it's just adding Lord Foul, then we'll stick to ECL2.

It's not just a mindless dungeon crawl, though: there will be a story reason for entering. And it's a good one, too ;)

@Lord Foul: I await the final draft with bated breath lol Did we ever hear back on that MLP game, by the way?

I gave you a backstory several pages ago,

And one of the buffs I gave half giants was to give them the advanced stats (+2 to all physical stats, +4 to int)
The other stuff... Yeah I'll fix it.

Whoops. The problem with not having a proper profile evident here: I forgot the backstory and other details. They got lost in the tide, it seems :/

That definitely bumped up your scores to know those details. Sorry about that :( I genuinely feel like a heel now.

You know what, bugger all: if Lord Foul and/or SAMAS can get their characters fixed and in order by Saturday, I'll boost the party count for episode 1 (starts Tuesday, but I'll give you all details sooner). This also means a more challenging dungeon, though... but probably just +1CR.

GM Sloth - what do you want to see in our class/levels section of our profile?

Aka...what appears below our name when we post.

I'm not too picky. Gender, Race, and Class Levels are definitely handy to have for everyone's reference. Other than that, whatever you feel is relevant.

Yours is fine, Asclepiodotus.
As is Qahnaarin's (a block of stats that long can be spoilered, btw).

More details make it easier to run this without having to flip back to alias profiles, though.

It's tied mechanically to your draconic essence, though. Your essence (and all effects based on it) needs to be within one step of TN.

Follow me down the rabbit hole!

This is the official discussion thread for "The Tangle."

For episode 1, our players are:
Peanuts
Tanner Nielsen
LibraryRPGamer
JonGarrett

Our reserve list is:
Lord Foul II
SAMAS

It was a tough decision process, folks. These were excellent submissions. I chose based on accuracy of build and backstory, by the way.
Now, those edits that needed mentioning:
Peanuts - Nothing to note.

Tanner - My only problem with your character is that you are CE. Might not mesh well with the rest of the party.

Library - I believe your bonuses on History and Religion should be +13. It was kind of hard to follow with the way the Deductionist works lol

Jon - I ran the numbers, and there is no way that Khalaban could have 26 STR at this point. Base 16 + 4 Giant template + 2 Angel-kin = 22. Also, you have one too many traits - please drop one.

SAMAS - The only real problem with your character is that Suli are 16RP, not 15.

Lord Foul - Missing a backstory was a huge detriment for you. Additionally: with 200GP, you could not have a masterwork warhammer; you should have bard saves, not monk saves; you are missing Weapon Focus as a feat; the stat adjustments you have listed for half-giants are wrong (should be +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Dex).

I'll post more on the setting and rules in a little while. Need to get back to work lol

I've made my selections. However, almost every character has something wrong with it.

When I announce my decisions tomorrow, I will also tell each of you what needs adjusting.

Thanks for the submissions, now let the waiting get to you ;)

Alright folks, recruitment for episode 1 is CLOSED.

Final results:
SAMAS - Omara Sedilah; Suli Paladin (Empyreal Knight)
Tanner - Qahnaarin; Tanininim Draconic Exemplar (Weapon Champion)
JonGarrett - Khalaban; Giant Aasimar Warrior
Library - Asclepiodotus; True Azlanti Deductionist (Weapon Champion)
Peanuts - Shatay; Lasorai Magister (Spellblaze) (still missing your trait[s])

@Lord Foul: I'm not sure which character concept from that list you are submitting. If you could point me out and have the stats put together by the end of today, I will let slide the fact that you posted a few minutes beyond the time limit and add you to the list.

As we have spots for four applicants and have received five (six?) applications, I want those who will not be selected for episode 1 to know this:
Your character will go onto a "reserve list." Should any of the other characters die or drop out, one of you will be selected as a replacement at random and messaged to see if you are still interested.
Otherwise, episode 2 will also be at level 1 and your characters will be considered submitted for it well in advance ;)

I will review and pick characters sometime tomorrow. THANK YOU TO EVERYONE FOR THE CHANCE TO GM FOR YOU.

3. Uhh, I just used Hero Labs and it was on the list there. It looks like it's from the Ghoran race in the inner sea bestiary, and it's worth -2 points, so the Lasorai are indeed 15 points :) Also just to be clear, it isn't so much that the Lasorai need the sun, they need the sky above their heads, and the open air around them. But uhhh yeah, I'm hoping there's not too many caverns and the like ahead :p

Ah. I found where I made my mistake in my math. Carry on.

@Peanuts: To my own point 1... I'm an idiot. Ignore that.
The other three still stand, though. Also, having used HeroLabs, your class is listed as sorcerer lol

Here's the app list as of the middle of Saturday:

SAMAS - Omara Sedilah; Suli Paladin (Empyreal Knight)
Tanner - Qahnaarin; Tanininim Draconic Exemplar (Weapon Champion)
JonGarrett - Khalaban; Giant Aasimar Warrior
Library - Asclepiodotus; True Azlanti Deductionist (Weapon Champion)
Peanuts - Shatay; Lasorai Magister (Spellblaze)

Keep em rolling in folks! You have until midnight tonight :)

Just a couple of things on Shatay:
1. With 200gp, how do you have a potion of cure light wounds and masterwork hide armor? The potion and the masterwork component alone are 200gp.
2. For the Hover feat, you must have wings and be large size to kick up dust clouds.
3. The Light Dependent trait: where did you get the information for that? I must have missed it in my read through earlier, but that doesn't appear in the PFSRD (that I can find).
4. Also, you are allowed one trait for free. You get a second if you take a drawback.

Otherwise, looks fine.

EDIT: So... I guess I didn't do the math earlier, but the Lasorai actually have 17RP. Needs adjusting by a scant 2RP.

Four for the first episode.

Slight change on my previous comment: Close of day is actually midnight tomorrow.

I had my mind made up this morning about that, then kind of forgot about it when I got to work o.O

So, to be clear:
Apps will be accepted until 11:59PM on October 25th (Saturday).

Again, good luck to you all :)

Alright, folks, we're down to the wire!
Recruitment closes tomorrow at 5PM Pacific time.

Here's whose turned in an app already:

SAMAS - Omara Sedilah; Suli Paladin (Empyreal Knight)
Tanner - Qahnaarin; Tanininim Draconic Exemplar (Weapon Champion)
JonGarrett - Khalaban; Giant Aasimar Warrior
Library - Asclepiodotus; True Azlanti Deductionist (Weapon Champion)

No pressure to the rest of those interested, but like I said: recruitment for episode 1 ends tomorrow night!

After the close of day tomorrow, I will announce those selected on Tuesday sometime. Episode 1 should begin shortly following that (probably the following Tuesday).

Get those apps in and good luck to everyone!

Asclepiodotus is A-OK :)

@Peanuts: Lasorai look fine to me. Gonna offer some challenge to me with them flying, though ;)
For selecting cantrips and orisons, I'll say that they remain at level 0. Because, seriously, that would just be silly to use a 1st level slot for mage hand. Other spells increase as indicated in the "Choosing Spells" section as normal.

A re-skin involves changing purely aesthetic aspects (fluff) such as appearance, backstory, or behavior, etc., without changing any mechanical aspects (crunch).

I know what re-skin means. I just wanted to see what the thought process here looked like for clarity.

Yeah. Go for it, Nohwear. Ratfolk are in the PFSRD and fit the 15RP limit.

How familiar is everyone with Warhammer Fantasy? I am playing with an idea that involves reskinning Ratfolk as Skaven.

I play 40k, not Fantasy, but I'm familiar.

@Library: Those figures seem like the averages for weapons of those sizes (for a medium character). I approve! But only because then we don't have to argue/discuss/rant about what does what.

@Tanner: Perfect! Qahnaarin is now A-OK :)

Weapon Champion Question-

pfsrd wrote:

Favored Weapons (Ex)

-snip-

-snip-

But, I'm now wondering what "proficient with [improvised weapons]" means, exactly. Non-proficiency yields a -4 on attack roles. By that logic, would I still need Catch-off-guard and/or Throw Anything to remove the regular -4 penalty with improvised weapons? Or, would the Favored Weapons ability essentially eliminate the need for those feats?

My assumption is "yes, I still need the improvised weapon feats", but, I wanted to check, just in case.

That is an odd corner case :/

From a balance standpoint, I'd say that you would need the feats. From a logic standpoint, I'd say that your class feature covers it.

I'll apply the rule of cool here: you don't need those feats. They do still have a benefit for taking them, though. (Catch Off-guard makes your opponent flat-footed if they're unarmed; Throw Anything gives you a +1 bonus on attacks with splash weapons)

Some quick character reviews:

@Tanner: A few things I noticed about Qahnaarin - 1. You are breaking rule 0 (BACKSTORY). 2. You have two traits and no drawbacks. 3. You bought an item worth 5gp, but have 198.89gp left. Otherwise, seems in order.
Mawj, on the other hand, is A-OK :)

@SAMAS: Omara looks A-OK :)

@JonGarrett: The first thing is to set up a proper alias for Khalaban lol
Otherwise, A-OK :)

@Library: Can't wait to see the full build.

These are just reviews and not automatic acceptance into this episode.

Still waiting on Lord Foul, Peanut, Nohwear, Yingzen, and some others.

So, basic start of combat would be something like this...

GM - setting the scene; "you see monster X"

Players - we roll a know monster check (pass or fail)

GM - here are the stats/abilities

Players - take turns attacking/defending, bouncing off each others actions, as normal.

Something like that? What is the GM's role in combat beyond monster providing stat blocks?

That's the general idea, yes. But I'd be chiming in between rounds.

@Lord Foul: Yeah. Like I said, this group doesn't really have any casters or skill monkies yet. But, recruitment is open until end of day this Saturday, so we'll see what happens ;)

@Peanut: I was wondering where you wandered off to lol

1. I'm expecting about one level per month. Hopefully. Guaranteed, once per episode. Your characters should be hitting a milestone once per week (hopefully), and it takes four of those to reach the next level.

2 & 3. Here's an example that should clear things up :3 And remember: I'm only thinking of doing that variant if folks are okay with it.

This monster is Knowledge (dungeoneering) DC 15

Fail

When you fight a monster, make it cinematic.
Grabthar engaged the ogre in melee combat. The brute was quicker than he, however, and made a swing with its club. (Then, you would roll 1d20 and add your AC mods) Unfortunately, the ogre connected (deal damage).
Undaunted, Grabthar decided to return the favor. He released the spell charge he had been holding, hoping to fry the ogre's puny brain (then, roll 1d20 + spell level + casting mod + etc. against appropriate score). The spell sent electricity coursing through the great beast, ending its life.

And that's a basic idea of how this should look. Assuming that we go with this. The idea of using it would be to speed up combat postings so that we don't have to wait forever for someone to post.
Not so worried about initiative or any such. Players are allowed to draw their own aggro. Just a "smooth," quick combat system.

@Tanner: Ah. A dragon. This could get interesting. I'm gonna mention real quick that I can see two archetype packages built-in to the exemplar that could be swapped for others as appropriate - Draconic Defense or Draconic Gift. Your choice which ones to replace (if any).

@Library: Ya know, I can't see any reason as to why not. Go for it :)

Just thought of this: For those classes that have no archetypes, you can gain one of those archetype packages as your free archetype. Do a replacement as normal if you want two. Rules for templates apply as normal. TA-DA! Now everyone has nice things :3

Archetype packages:

Blacksnake
Cloakfighter
Harrier
Physical Exemplar
Spellhammer
Weapon Champion
Youxia

So, in a way, yes. The godling archetypes. But Super Genius designed them to work with any class.
I know this is dangerous, but I'm giving players the reigns in deciding what qualifies as an "archetype package" for their classes that don't appear on the list that Super Genius made. Just check with me for finalization :)

@Tanner: Which class were you looking into?

EDIT: Just found these other archetypes that have magic. The above are all martial (... I think).
Link!

Hokay. Geez, the way you wrote it the first time made the character seem like a god.

First option is just making a bottomless barrel of scrolls.

The second option focuses on one character at a time.

FAR more balanced than originally thought lol

@Tanner: ... That is an interesting loop hole. Let me close that real quick - no. And that's for your benefit: with a +1 template and no archetypes, you'd be losing out on features over the course of the character's life.

@Library: Point me to what things allow these options. I want to make sure that if this is a RAI thing I have an idea as to what's what. But, for my two cp, I'd say the second one. As shown by every MMO ever, stun-lock is stoopid good.

Since the rest of the sentence reads, "...in addition to his Wis modifier", it seems to suggest you add your Int modifier. ;)

Hey DM Sloth! I thought the creation guidelines said any class from the PFSRD. Did you mean d20PFSRD? The deductionist is 3rd party, and because Lord Foul has built the exact same character I was going to build once I picked up class levels, and I wouldn't mind having other options to switch things up a bit.

That thing with "Int Score" is definitely a typo. Make it mod.

Hey Tanner! Yes. d20PFSRD. Any class there :3

Oops. I must have missed that...

I want to keep the flavor, so, other feats that could work are (in order of preference):
1 - Noble Scion (Lore) - would the "13 CHA" requirement make it not allowed?
2 - Scholar - no requirements, the "if all else fails" option

Technically, any prerequisite disqualifies a feat for this option. However, because I like the flavor and what-have you, I have a work around: for that particular trait, you may have Noble Scion (the full version, so you can choose your lineage), but only if the character has Cha 13. Alternatively, they gain Scholar.

That is, it's like Gnome Magic in that you have to meet the stats to get the better thing. Those that don't still get something neat, though.

Seem fair?

Alright, here we are with five days until recruiting ends. What we have for characters:

[SAMAS] Omara Sedilah - Suli Paladin/Empyreal Knight
[Tanner] Mawj - Anataniwha Warrior
[JonGarrett] Khalaban - (giant) Angel-kin Aasimar Warrior
[Lord Foul] ??? - (terror) Half-giant Magus/Kensai/Spiderhawk)

And that's everyone for now :)

@Library: Your race doesn't meet the requirement for Breadth of Experience :( Like I said, fudging monstrous/advanced traits is fine, but all other details of traits/feats need to be met. Otherwise, your "azlanti" meet all of my other check marks :)

@Narrater: hey, no worries. I started this game because I know how hard getting accepted to another one can be. Like I said at the outset, check back regularly - recruitment is ongoing :3 enjoy you AP!

GM Sloth the Second wrote:

@Library: I think a feat like that would be balanced. Grants two bonus reasoning each time it gets taken. If it turns out I'm wrong, would you have a problem retraining for balance purposes (though I think you'll be just fine)?

What about the other feat? The one that grants an additional deduction?

Whoops. Yeah, that should be fine too :)

Point 2 was supposed to be as follows: no racial hit dice. Just take an NPC level instead. Slight lag behind the party this way, but less of a headache to make work.

@Library: I think a feat like that would be balanced. Grants two bonus reasoning each time it gets taken. If it turns out I'm wrong, would you have a problem retraining for balance purposes (though I think you'll be just fine)?

EDIT: just noticed a question I hadn't answered. If you take a template that changes your alignment, you change your alignment.

Wow. Where to start...

1. NPC class with templates are fine. You may choose any of them except Aristocrat. That actually works better than my idea.
2. +1 templates have NPC classes, +0 have PC class with 1 or 2 archetypes as normal.
3. Godlings are 100% okay.
4. The Anataniwha look just fine to me. But now I fear seeing races that dump Charisma...
5. @Library: let me review what things those points net you and I'll consider it ;)
6. @Lord Foul (and everyone else, by extension): just to simplify things, take the best of both. In this case, light armor casting and canny defense are both gotten.

Starting to wonder of Gestalt would have been easier :/

Zif look... Interesting... That protective shell ability is pretty beefy... I'm going to say between that and odd anatomy that they are a no go :( those two abilities are crazy good.
The rest of that idea is sound, though :)

If we create a custom race, can we utilize racial class archetypes designated for official races?

I'm assuming you mean things like treesinger druid for elves?

So you ended up deciding against Gestalt then? I don't see it listed as an option any more. Sad.

Still I'll see what I can come up with. I'm guessing the two 'half' templates (fiend & celestial)wouldn't be valid? They start out as a +1 CR, but then increase in bonus as you gain hitdice.

To the first point, yes. Mostly because it actually reduces the shenanigans that I'd have to deal with. Despite having already caused one headache lol

To the second point, yes. Those templates would not be valid due to the scaling niceness. Stick to +0 or +1 templates. Which reminds me:
+0 templates are allowed, but you don't have to drop anything to pick them up. For example, I see no real differences between a normal human and an Aquatic one.

I will need to look into that I will be the first to admit I am not very familiar with the race building rules so I may have missed something.

The quick and dirty is that, instead of +2 to one stat, this race would get:

+2 to all stats of one type
+4 to one of the other type
-2 to one of the other type

Which means, with 10s across the board, you'd have three 12s, one 14, one 10, and one 8. Pretty solid.
Otherwise, they'd get all the other things humans get: bonus skill, bonus feat.

Is the Tangle the sort of thing people seek out, or is it found by accident/fate?

Yes.

Not perfect as an azlanti, but you could play as a human and change the ability score modifier from Human Heritage (0RP) to Advanced (4RP) to simulate them pretty well. Otherwise, that idea sounds fantastic!

A note on custom races: I'm okay with minor fudging of whether something is "advanced" or "monstrous" as long as it's within the 15RP limit. For example, the above race is 14RP but uses an advanced trait. No sweat. Actually, not a bad race at all that way :)

That is the way I'm running it, yes. You gain the benefits that a 1HD creature of your type would (there are listings for saves, etc.) and gain 4th level at the same time as everyone else.

The only problem with an either-or approach is this: unless you opt to take two archetypes, you'll actually lag behind the party in power. Templates are one-shot boosts; archetypes grant things as you level.

And then there was the confusion of trying to reconcile allowing a template then gaining archetypes at 2nd level... which was a nightmare to think of.

So, I figured the simplest thing is to just have your character start out without a class if you want a +1 template. Then, gain those levels as normal lol
It's the best solution to the total problem that I could come up with.

I wanted to clear something up are you saying I could take something like the advanced or giant template on my character in lo of a free archtype?

EDIT: This pairing is actually resulting in a headache trying to make it make sense. I'll get back to you all on my arbitration in a little bit.

EDIT, v2: EUREKA! So, here's the best thing I can do to make this work out:
If you take the template route, you will not gain a class until 2nd level.
Instead, you will gain 1HD of whatever type you become through that template. For example, if the template is Abomination, and you started as a humanoid, you would gain one HD of monstrous humanoid.
Your template will be considered "bought-off" at 4th level. That is, if your character goes that far, you can eventually reach 20th level with the character.

THERE. SOLUTION.

We'll just assume that the races are around 10. I think they actually went on record as saying that they used the ARG to balance those races.

Unfortunately, yes. SRD only. Just to make a level playing field. Otherwise, I'd allow all sorts of stuff.
When the Occult Adventures Playtest is live, I'll be allowing that material as the only real exception.

Tales have existed on many worlds, for countless eons, of a world that somehow linked everything together. A place-between-places, a nexus. Scholars have long sought ways to prove such a place exists, but none have succeeded.
That is, until now.
Your world has found a way to reach this fabled realm.
Suddenly, all the myths are true. But what lies beyond the portals that lead to this infamous "Tangle?"
Many explorers have already entered the other world, bringing with them stories of a great, winding maze of immense proportions. But none have found any limits to the size of the world-that-lies-between.
A world without limits, where anything is possible...

"The Tangle" is intended to be an ongoing ENDLESS dungeon crawl. Essentially, it is a super-dungeon consisting of several smaller dungeons.
These "lesser" dungeons are going to be randomly generated via donjon and are going to be set at ECL+1 for some slightly added challenge.
This is going to be done as a PbP in an episodic style, so recurring characters are going to happen, and recruitment will be opening before each crawl begins. If you aren't involved with a run, check back to this thread every so often ;)

The exact building instructions are as follows:
0. BACKSTORY. I can't say this enough: I would greatly appreciate characters that have good backstory. You come from a world separate of The Tangle: fluff isn't just expected, it's virtually required.
1. We'll be using "Free Archetypes." This is kind of like Gestalt, but works as follows:

• Choose your base class. Anything in the PFSRD goes.
  
• You may choose one or two archetypes. (If your class doesn't have archetypes, you may use the Super Genius "Archetype Packages" responsibly.)
  
• If you choose one, you gain all of your base class features, plus the archetype's features.
  
• If you choose two archetypes, use the archetype that replaces the most class features as your base class, then add the other archetype for free. For example, a White Haired/Scarred Witch would gain no hexes (as white haired replaces that feature at each level it is gained)

• You may choose any race in the PFSRD or develop a custom one
  
• Either way, the race must be no greater than 15RP

Something I'm considering to speed things up is using the Players Roll All The Dice variant. I would post the appropriate stats at the start of the combat. I would like thoughts on this, however, before I implement it for sure.

A variant that I will be using is SKR's "step" system for leveling up. I'll be calling them "milestones," though. Presented here for ease of reference.
Basically, instead of gaining all of your level-based features AT ONCE, this system (sanely) divides it into four sections. I'll be rewarding milestones four times per episode. That is, you will level during the episode :)

The first episode starts at 1st level. No mythic tiers. Recruitment for this episode ends next Saturday (the 25th). Spots open for four players (to start).
If I missed anything, feel free to ask and I'll respond as quickly as I can.

If you are selected, posting once per day (Tuesday through Saturday) would be greatly appreciated. I will be trying to post at least three times during those days.
If you strike out three days in a row, you will be GM'd for one session. Failure to reappear after that results in ejection from the current episode - YOU WILL NOT BE KILLED. Just sent to camp.

@JonGarrett: That is a freaking hilarious concept. I'll keep considering the template thing. Most other GMs allow it, so I probably will... But I'll have it finalized in the recruitment forum ;)

I think I have a way to make the free archetypes work well for what I'd envisioned. Which, now that SAMAS has chimed back in (many thanks, btw) means I'll be setting up a proper recruitment sometime today or Tuesday (I try not to "work" on my weekends lol).

EDIT: Here we go!

Sadly, I would like to stick to the SRD. Otherwise, I'd DEFINITELY be allowing the Thunderscape stuff :/ Just trying to make sure everyone has an even playing field, so to speak.

Like I said: This is a ruleset that someone else (SAMAS) is more familiar with. (And Gods I hope that they chime back in to help clarify some of this lol)
Your examples seem right, though. But, given that other players might go the route of gestalting things for zaniness, this is about on par power-wise (methinkst).

I would prefer if racial restrictions were adhered to. But, you could just as easily make a race that allows you to skirt the issue. (Although, please: no overt cheese. That is pretty much my one rule here.)

EDIT: Six folks interested... huh. That's better than I expected :) Might set up a recruitment thread once I can get the rules sorted out better, then.

GM Sloth the Second wrote:

Those work as follows:
For any given class, select up to two archetypes. Gain all the features. (Corner cases may need my review)

Emphasis mine.

I'm still confused...

If we take two archetypes that have features that replace the same class ability, we get both features. I get that. But, are you suggesting that we also get the original class ability as well?

So, all the features from the two archetypes we choose are really simply add-ons, not "two-for-the-price-of-one replacements"?

That is an excellent question. It's a ruleset that I'm not familiar with. I believe it works as follows:

At least, that's what I'd gathered. And, heck, that makes the most sense on how it would work to me.