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I feel this is self-explanatory, self-evident, and true.
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I don’t know about a full Belkzen book, but SKT seems to be teeing up a big swing on the “the Quest for Sky was a genocide of the Orcs and the Dwarves need to face that” plot beat.
I feel like unless you want to run an all-orc/half-orc campaign about unifying the orc clans, Belkzen would probably be better handled as a diversion for the story and players as part of a larger adventure, maybe to do with Tar-Baphon and getting the orcs on-side against his forces. Say what you will about orc hordes ravaging the countryside, if that countryside is currently home to roving hordes of zombies and ghouls lurking the hills, there's not a lot the orcs can do to make things worse. Giving them Tar-Baphon to fight gives the orc clans an enemy to unite against, gets their attentions and efforts diverted away from more domestic possibilities, and takes pressure off Nirmathas and the coastlines of Molthune and Druma. But that's just what occurs off the top of my head, not the only thing you can do with them.
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Honestly, it seems to me that if Highhelm is getting it's own book, & people are talking about Kyonin getting it's own book rather than be folded into a Shining Kingdom's book, then Belkzen & Oprak should have their own books to highlight the non-human dominated nations of Avistan & devote full page count to the shift they're continuing to work on for the orcs & hobgoblins.
Though it does leave the Eye of Terror book a bit bare.
Edit: but mostly this was for the pun.
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Yeah, at that point I’d rather they just do an Eye of Dread year like the Impossible Lands got.
I would LOVE for Paizo to give Orcs the same treatment that they gave to Goblins!
Orcs tend to not have a lot of lore examining what Orcs ARE! Meaning they get relegated to blood bags of XP.
But if Paizo can turn Goblins into lovable mascots, I am sure they can do SOMETHING interesting with Orcs.
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I would LOVE for Paizo to give Orcs the same treatment that they gave to Goblins!
Orcs tend to not have a lot of lore examining what Orcs ARE! Meaning they get relegated to blood bags of XP.
But if Paizo can turn Goblins into lovable mascots, I am sure they can do SOMETHING interesting with Orcs.
In the Mwangi Expanse, orcs are a people of master demon hunters. Perhaps not as thorough as the goblin experience, but the have in fact already been creating a more nuanced body of orc cultures. Some things still need another look or an overhaul, but as of right now it's absolutely possible to pick up an orc and create a lore-accurate nuanced orc.
For example, even around Belkzen where orcs are typically thought of as the "monstrous green horde" stereotype, when you gomez down to it you discover that the (late) crusader nation of Lastwall regularly had peaceful trade with some Belkzen tribes even while being one of the major raiding targets for other more aggressive tribes.
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Yeah, 2e has never depicted Orcs as ‘blood bags of xp’ - both Belkzen and the Matanji are depicted with respect across multiple sources, Orcs have been playable for ages, and I suspect this year is grappling with their ancient genocide at the hands of the dwarves in play.
I'd love an EoD book, but part of me is pretty sure we wont get one until near the end of the edition, simply due to how much attention it got so recently.
I'd love to be wrong though.
orc hellknights would be badass. trained in legal lore and asskicking.
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We'll either get Eye of Dread very soon (next meta-region book or the one after), or at the end. If it's at the end, it will be for the reasons stated. If it's soon, it's because we haven't had anything to do with him or his minions in the APs yet. That is very odd. The 3.5 APs kicked off that plot, and Shattered Star happened three years in to 1E. 2E will be four years old in July/August.
If Paizo gets into the mood for another introductory PF 2 freebie one ancestry adventure like "We be heroes", or the "Little Trouble in Big Absalom" , maybe this time it should be a focus on Orcs? It could give a snapshot image of at least one orc tribe as a taste of what's to come?
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I would LOVE for Paizo to give Orcs the same treatment that they gave to Goblins!
Orcs tend to not have a lot of lore examining what Orcs ARE! Meaning they get relegated to blood bags of XP.
But if Paizo can turn Goblins into lovable mascots, I am sure they can do SOMETHING interesting with Orcs.
First edition had a book called "Orcs of Golarion", and pretty much nobody cared.
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First edition had a book called "Orcs of Golarion", and pretty much nobody cared.
Orcs of Golarion came out 13 years ago. I don't know that its reception in a time before the bulk of 2e players had ever sniffed of Pathfinder tells us much of anything - to say nothing of how their lore has been refined in the ensuing decade-plus span of time.
The very first page describes ancient orcs as "barely more than humanoid animals, struggling among themselves over resources and occasionally menacing other, more intelligent subterranean races," while any modern content would presumably have a more nuanced, interesting tone. I'd like much more of how the Matanji were handled in the recent Mwangi book than this old Player Companion's endless saying they're basically all short-lived cannibal savages.
Belkzen deserves a deeper dive from the place of the current lore. The Matanji, as mentioned, are awesome. Arcadian Orcs cooperated with the dwarves of that continent and live today as ranchers and gunslingers on the plains. We've still not really seen any Desert Orcs in Garund properly yet. Plenty of space exists to be mined for novel Orc info!
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There's also the fact that Orcs of Golarion wasn't at the time part of a much larger and dynamic meta-region to hook people. When presented as part of a diverse region, with imperial Molthune, isolationist Oprak, rural Nirmathas and the Isle of Terror, you have a lot more to work with to make Belkzen feel like a fun sandbox to draw from or play in, and ways to recontextualise its orcs apart from the typical fantasy tropes without necessarily losing some of the casual brutality that players like orcs for - in a region where orcs and hobgoblins aren't the biggest and meanest thing lurking the edges of civilisation, but potential (albeit tenuous) allies against vast undead legions raised by the undying lich Tar-Baphon whose atrocities make the worst excesses of Belkzen look like spilled milk.
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Personally, coming at the angel of "an updated guide to Belkzen" I would love to see the Holds re-written in a way that keeps their strongly evil theme but does away with some tropes that paizo has moved away in the current years.
The "Slavery" and "The Role of Females" sections in their current form could be omitted from new content and I wouldn't bat an eye.
Also if we are going on an Orc wish list, can I PLEASE get some more information on the Hold of the Burning Sun. I know they just got some land in LO: Legends from their contributions against the whispering tyrant but I would love to know where they go from here.
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Also if we are going on an Orc wish list, can I PLEASE get some more information on the Hold of the Burning Sun. I know they just got some land in LO: Legends from their contributions against the whispering tyrant but I would love to know where they go from here.
If you haven't seen, this Society scenario deals with the Burning Sun. I haven't read it myself... but it's something!
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Also if we are going on an Orc wish list, can I PLEASE get some more information on the Hold of the Burning Sun. I know they just got some land in LO: Legends from their contributions against the whispering tyrant but I would love to know where they go from here.If you haven't seen, this Society scenario deals with the Burning Sun. I haven't read it myself... but it's something!
Thank you so much, I dont know HOW I missed this given season 2 was when I was the most active and is the only season who's meta plot I completed.
Life saver!
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So this forum actually reminded me how much cool stuff is happening in the Eye of Dread. I would be really excited to see it get some love. Also a certain mundane weapon has a very interesting lore tidbit about the region, which makes me think of the other cultures and what weaponry or tactics each group might favor. (I am talking about the Dancing Spear and it's use by Nirmantahs soldiers to fight skeletons. Which is very compelling since the dancing spear was typically seen as a ceremonial weapon in Molthune)
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First edition had a book called "Orcs of Golarion", and pretty much nobody cared.I would LOVE for Paizo to give Orcs the same treatment that they gave to Goblins!
Orcs tend to not have a lot of lore examining what Orcs ARE! Meaning they get relegated to blood bags of XP.
But if Paizo can turn Goblins into lovable mascots, I am sure they can do SOMETHING interesting with Orcs.
Maybe, but Belkzen, Hold of the Orc Hordes was one of my favorite Lore books for 1e. I loved the take that Orcs not only got a fleshed out Pantheon (not just an implied one like what the Dwarves have), but the Pantheon included a Magic God and a Mother God. But even that book still couldn't get away from the Orcs are evil so its ok to kill them issue.
Paizo could make a whole book looking at the "evil"(Goblins, Orcs, etc) & underdeveloped (Catfolk) Ancestries and it would be a step in the right direction.
The Lost Omens Ancestry Guide did touch on each of the examples you gave with different cultural groups described (less so goblins since they were covered in the Character Guide) but I agree there's room for interesting development in that area.
I feel like unless you want to run an all-orc/half-orc campaign about unifying the orc clans, Belkzen would probably be better handled as a diversion for the story and players as part of a larger adventure, maybe to do with Tar-Baphon and getting the orcs on-side against his forces.
I think that's the entire reason to make that very book.
I mean, we have a whole adventure path that's basically CSI:Absalom, and another is Wizarding School in Ancient Timbuktu, and a third entire AP is basically "Bruce Lee's last movie, but drawn out over a whole campaign".
A campaign about 'Unify the Orc Clans' is even less obscure that those.
And I'd love to play in "ESO: Orsinium, but for table top". ;)
- If those guys can make one of the main NPCs involved in unifying the Orcs a 'cute but clueless wood elf ranger' than I'm sure we could find ways to make the same basic theme even more dynamic given a larger page count.
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Does Belkzen need to be unified? I was pretty sure Ardax had that pretty handled.
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Well technically common enemy (tm) has it handled. Belkzen isn't exactly centralized region with single ruler
Sidenote, one of things I appreciate about Ardax and his predecessor is that they are still NE and CE respectively :p Like those two were never about "good orcs trying to redeem orc culture", they were about visionaries who saw that raiding and pillaging lifestyle isn't sustainable.
and another is Wizarding School in Ancient Timbuktu
Not sure if the most powerful and ancient of magic schools and traditions on the face of the planet can really be boiled down to "Wizard school in ancient Timbuktu"
Not sure if the most powerful and ancient of magic schools and traditions on the face of the planet can really be boiled down to "Wizard school in ancient Timbuktu"and another is Wizarding School in Ancient Timbuktu
Just to note, this quote was by CorvusMask who was quoting me.
Sorry fixed it and it was arcady not CorvusMask
Huh, I even get it wrong in my correction? They must have rolled high for stealth. :P