Spell mastery, I'd say, would lose out. Unless you don't mind the extra paperwork involved in tracking that much more info for every +Int item... Spell mastery, in my experience, is taken so rarely (if ever!) that I don't think it's worth it to clutter up the +Int items with that extra stuff.Question for James (if he stays around and has the time)
What about spell mastery?
I don't mind tracking it! I realize a lot of people don't take it but I often do, and generally multiple times on a character so those extra 3 spells mastered can quickly become 6~9 spells for me.
Bonus spells CAN be changed every time a wizard prepares his spells, unlike languages or skill ranks, which are static. There's no need to hard code bonus spells.
Thanks for the clarification!
I agree with you. I'm hoping that Jason was frazzled getting ready for GenCon or tired while he was there, or that I was simply misunderstanding him, and that he'll correct me.
The only thing I'm not quite getting is the mention of the bonus spells. If I'm not mistaken, a Wizard gets to choose his spells each morning while preparing spells. I don't see why these would have to be hard-coded.
The "Bonus spells" that might need to be hard-coded into a Headband are those that a Wizard gains at first level due to higher intelligence.
But those (and languages IMHO) don't need to be hard-coded, because other permanent increases in Intelligence don't grant them.
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But those (and languages IMHO) don't need to be hard-coded, because other permanent increases in Intelligence don't grant them.
Actually, yes, they do. That's a change from D&D 3.5 to Pathfinder. Jason's reason: if you want to design a 12th-level Rogue, it shouldn't make any difference whether his Intelligence of 18 was what he started with, or the result of attribute increases as he progressed in level. You should be able to design a 12th-level NPC without having to start at 1st level and work your ay up, one level at a time.
Yep, exactly what Chris said. Working out NPCs that changed Intelligence scores was a nightmare in 3.0 and 3.5. Now it doesn't matter what their initial score was. All that matters is what their current (permanent) Intelligence is. It's a huge streamline for character creation.
Page 17 doesn't say anything at all about increasing Intelligence. So I'm not sure what you are pointing out here.
As to 555, under Permanent Bonus's it says :
Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
Note the bolded part, Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. That's the part you are looking for. All statistics related to Int are : Skill points gained at each level, Languages learned at 1st level, attribute bonus's to INT skills, and spells per day for certain casters.
I don't think anyone would argue that an attribute gained through leveling is not permanent. So, that means that if your INT goes from 17 to 18 at 8th level, you gain one language, 8 skill points (one for each level), all your Int based skills go up by one, and you recheck your spells per day based on the new attribute score.
What I'm pointing out is the two points, one about language and one about skill points, on p.17, where it says what your intelligence score affects:
• The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common. If you have a penalty, you can still read and speak your racial languages unless your Intelligence is lower than 3.
• The number of skill points gained each level, though your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.
To me this means that every time I level up I check my intelligence score (magic bonuses that last for more than 24 h included), and add skill points equal to 2 + 8 for my int score of 26 on my wizard.
Now, according to the rules on p.555 you also get skill points for every level you have, not only when you level up. Add to that the skill ranks that comes with the headband, which in NO WAY states that these skill ranks are a hard coded version of what you get with a high int. The headband just says you get them unconditionally.
A creative rules lawyer could actually find support in the rules for gaining MORE than double skill ranks per level.
If a wizard is lvl 8 and just crafted himself a headband of vast intellect +4 he would, according to my interpretation the rules we've been talking about, after 24 hrs get:
• +16 skill points to spend as he wish
• 2 hard coded skills with 8 ranks, and he chose these skills himself since he crafted it himself
• 10 skill points when he reaches lvl 9 because he's got an int of 26 with the headband bonus.
And then there's the contradictions between p.17 and p.555 which makes me think you won't get a bonus language for high int, and maybe even no retroactive skill points.
The following sentence from p.555 tells me the rules on p.17 apply to a high int score gained through magic items:
Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours.
And the next one is a big contradiction to the rules on p.17 concerning intelligence:
Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses.
Actually this doesn't SAY that you get skill points for earlier levels, cause that would contradict the rule about only getting skill points when you reach a new level. Same thing about languages. You only get them at lvl 1 according to p.17. So if the rules on p.555 gets precedence, then you get double, nay triple skill gain from a headband of vast intellect, and one bonus language per +2 bonus.
If the rules on p.17 gets precedence, you don't get a bonus language, and you only get skillpoints when leveling up, and then you don't get them retroactively. In essence, p.555 refers to p.17 since there's a contradiction and the p.555 rules aren't specific enough to overrule p.17.The basis of YOUR interpretation of the rules, mdt, demands you disregard the rules on p.17 entirely. What's your basis for that? Because it seems right? someone told you? Although correct, it's not good enough. I need it printed, or in an errata. Like a true lawyer.
I haven't read the book from cover to cover yet, so PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong. Show me something quoted from the pathfinder book that eliminates this possiblity of abuse/misinterpretation entirely.
Imho, rules have to be water tight on things like this so they can't be misinterpreted.
I realize of course Chris' and Zurai's point and agree that the RAI is great to this end, although I don't think it was a nightmare... You just make short lists or use a calculator and add for each level individually. Takes less than a minute figuring out... Anyhoo... Back on track: somewhere along the line someone forgot to change the rules on p.17 and go over this thing to make sure it was water tight and easily understandable.
Edited: I discovered and corrected some big errors in my post. Proofreading ftw. -.-
To me this means that every time I level up I check my intelligence score (magic bonuses that last for more than 24 h included), and add skill points equal to 2 + 8 for my int score of 26 on my wizard.
This you have correct. However, the description of the headband itself states that the skill points from it are hard-coded. That is an exception to the rules on page 555. So you do get the skill points, but the ones you get based on the INT from the headband are hard-coded to the 1-3 skills on the band, and you yourself cannot spend them.
Now, according to the rules on p.555 you also get skill points for every level you have, not only when you level up. Add to that the skill ranks that comes with the headband, which in NO WAY states that these skill ranks are a hard coded version of what you get with a high int. The headband just says you get them unconditionally.A creative rules lawyer could actually find support in the rules for gaining MORE than double skill ranks per level.
If a wizard is lvl 8 and just crafted himself a headband of vast intellect +4 he would, according to my interpretation the rules we've been talking about, after 24 hrs get:
• +16 skill points to spend as he wish
• 2 hard coded skills with 8 ranks, and he chose these skills himself since he crafted it himself
• 10 skill points when he reaches lvl 9 because he's got an int of 26 with the headband bonus.
And a creative rules lawyer would get slammed down by pointing out that the creators of the game have already addressed this multiple times. (See below).
And then there's the contradictions between p.17 and p.555 which makes me think you won't get a bonus language for high int, and maybe even no retroactive skill points.The following sentence from p.555 tells me the rules on p.17 apply to a high int score gained through magic items:
Quote:Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours.
And the next one is a big contradiction to the rules on p.17 concerning intelligence:
Quote:Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses.
Actually this doesn't SAY that you get skill points for earlier levels, cause that would contradict the rule about only getting skill points when you reach a new level. Same thing about languages. You only get them at lvl 1 according to p.17. So if the rules on p.555 gets precedence, then you get double, nay triple skill gain from a headband of vast intellect, and one bonus language per +2 bonus.
No contradiction at all. You do get them retoactively, the next time you level. Basically, you should have ranks equal to [class Skill Points] + [Int Mod] + [Racial Mod] + [Favored Class Mod] at each level, and if you don't have enough to equal that for each level you have, you would need to correct that at the earliest opportunity. The points gained from a headband of intellect are fixed and only apply to the skills hardcoded into it. If you put personal skill points into those same skills, they don't stack, the band overrides the ones you spent. So you could have 15 of your skill points tied up in say Disable Device when you are level 10, but you only get credit for 10.
If the rules on p.17 gets precedence, you don't get a bonus language, and you only get skillpoints when leveling up, and then you don't get them retroactively. In essence, p.555 refers to p.17 since there's a contradiction and the p.555 rules aren't specific enough to overrule p.17.
I don't see how you can make this claim. Page 555 clearly states that it is modifying the normal rules, so it is an update to page 17, page 17 is discussing the generality of intelligence and how it's used in the game. Page 555 is addressing how to adjust the rules if the stat changes. This is why you are having trouble understanding how this rule modification works. You are interpreting the general as overriding the specific modification to the general.
The basis of YOUR interpretation of the rules, mdt, demands you disregard the rules on p.17 entirely. What's your basis for that? Because it seems right? someone told you? Although correct, it's not good enough. I need it printed, or in an errata. Like a true lawyer.I haven't read the book from cover to cover yet, so PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong. Show me something quoted from the pathfinder book that eliminates this possiblity of abuse/misinterpretation entirely.
Imho, rules have to be water tight on things like this so they can't be misinterpreted.
I realize of course Chris' and Zurai's point and agree that the RAI is great to this end, although I don't think it was a nightmare... You just make short lists or use a calculator and add for each level individually. Takes less than a minute figuring out... Anyhoo... Back on track: somewhere along the line someone forgot to change the rules on p.17 and go over this thing to make sure it was water tight and easily understandable.
Edited: I discovered and corrected some big errors in my post. Proofreading ftw. -.-
You've already gotten your answer from the powers that be (see below). At this point, from this last part, it sounds to me like you are more just trying to argue to argue. If you want an official errata, fine, but in the meantime, please don't argue you haven't been given an answer to this. The powers that be have already answered it, and at this point all your doing is arguing a position you know is incorrect. A GMs job is to interpret the rules with common sense, and if your rules lawyer insists on doing things the way you want them done, then either let him or deny him, it's your game. The best bet would be to point him to the quote below.
It's easy to see why in 3.5 the Intelligence boosting items didn't mess with your skill points, ain't it? :-)
The headband of vast intelligence grants you an Intelligence bonus. We wanted it to also grant skill points, since that's what increased intelligence scores do. What we DIDN'T want was a situation where you get an item that grants an INT bonus and put it on your head and get to pick where those extra skill ranks go there and then... because then what's keeping you from putting those ranks in to, say, Appraise, but then when you get to a locked door you can just take the item off and then put it back on your head and say, "Now those skill ranks are adding to my Disable Device!" Makes the item WAY too versatile.
So the solution was to "hard code" the skill ranks into each item. That way, when you find an INT boosting head band, you not only know what the skill ranks it grants are, but when you take it off and put it back on or pass it around to your friends, it stays the same. It removes the whole "What do I want to be good at today?" problem. And that DOES mean that sometimes you'll find an INT boosting item that overlaps with skill ranks you already have, but that's fine with me since you're still enjoying all the other benefits of the increased INT score just like you did in 3.5 (which, remember, doesn't grant ANY skill ranks for INT boosters).
You certainly don't get the bonus ranks hard coded into the item AND another batch of skill ranks to spend as you wish.
I'll make sure Jason knows that this'll be something we should add to the FAQ. It's not really errata, since it's not really a correction. It's just something that needs more explanation.
EDIT: I'm not sure if excluding bonus languages from the things the headband grants was an oversight or intentional. I think it might have been intentional, but I'm not sure.
Yeah, at this point I think the rules are fairly clear, finally.
While it would be helpful if the Designers expanded the definitions in the PRD, and maybe the errata document (even though it is not strictly a correction).. the rules are now clear.
Until there is a written amendment, you're going to have to roll up your sleeves and tell them the way it works. Point to this thread if you have to, and say the matter has been resolved.
If you're not going to be respected as the GM, after having gone to trouble to get the fair and accurate ruling, then you need a better caliber of player.
If you're routinely run roughshod by rules lawyers, that's a problem we can't help you with. We can encourage you, but you're the only one that can do anything about it.
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How many people are allowing periods of time when the thing isn't worn, once the bonus is established as a permanent one? I am thinking that 12 hours a day is enough for it to remain a permanent bonus when on (and maybe I'd allow it when it's off as well, but I am wary of abuses). I don't see that sleeping in a headband to keep the tenor of the bonus is terribly flavourful (and the belts of physical stat boosting clearly have to come off from time to time, given nature's normal alimentary course).
No way dude, you gotta have those suckers bolted on ;) This is why all my character's who have belts wear kilts.
More seriously I just take the approach that once the bonus becomes permanent they can retain that bonus provided they wear it every day and don't benefit from another item that uses that slot and they wear it while adventuring. I suppose that could lead to some silliness and if players decide to abuse it I will likely change it but in general it's one of those things I don't feel is worth tracking.
I'm mostly satisfied with my answer from JJ (James Jacobs) and other answers I've gotten, but this whole arguing for argument's sake was actually started by James Risner who didn't agree with me that the RAW were unclear. Other than trying to explain WHY I read the RAW so horrendously different from the RAI I'm just trying to comb out all the little errors so that if and when Jason finally reads this he's got alot of input about what to put in his faq/errata thing...
I think it's important to point out all the ways that p.17 and p.555 isn't consistent and that it does not adress different items and sources of int gain well enough, like Watcher said early on. It's not only that the headband isn't clear enough. This is bigger than the headband, in fact anything that gives you int, even the earned bonuses on lvl 4, 8, 12 etc is touched by this potential confusion and therefore I ask you guys if you agree or not and try to discuss it with you to figure out the "nooks and crannies" of this for the sake of the community. Repeating that "it's just the way it works" is really counterproductive because I know how at least the core of it is intended after JJ's first reply. However, I still feel that he didn't address or even picked up on all the details of it, but now that this thread has grown to such a monster and I've lost my train of thought, I'm not sure I cba trying to cath up again. I'm sorry for not being clear enough about this, though mostly I've only answered trying to explain what I read. Oh, and thanks for trying to help. I have actually learned a great deal from this thread even though I haven't found the focus to participate in all of the directions it was taking at the same time, or reply properly to all. I've got problems keeping my "wall of text"-factor down as it is. :P
Any ignoring has not been intentional. :o
By the way, thanks for the concern, but this time around I'm actually playing myself! :D The poor player from my group who is DMing now has caused me pain as a player with überstupuid characters before, so now it's my turn! XD Except that I'm more of the intelligent-manipulating-cunning-wizard-type rather than the stupid-drunk-dwarf-dual-wielding-two-spiked-shields-type... :P
And no, I have no intention of ruining the game by rules lawyering and breaking the game balance, but he deserves a few headaches... :D Being primarily a DM for about 15 years sort of gives you a fair understanding of what being überpowerful means.. Been there, done that. More often than not it's not much fun. :P
Anyhoo... I think maybe there are better alternatives to hard-coding(and I'm happy to share it and discuss it if there's interest for it), but then I guess I should've gotten more involved while this was still in beta... :)
By the way. I just discovered some minor detail on p.554:
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
It doesn't say anything about items.. Hehe... ;)
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Specifically, where does it say that you get languages for increased int? It's only at lvl 1 you get them, right? At least that's what p.17 indicates.
It doesn't say specifically that these are those skill points. You have to guess. If you're a rules lawyer playing a wizard crafting a headband and you get both the associated skills AND skill points for high int you haven't done it wrong according to the diffuse RAW. You've stayed within the framework of the rules.
Page 17 does not say "You only gain these at character creation", so without some text to explicitly limit it to 1st level you can interpret this both ways: You either get them with increased INT or you only get them at character creation. It depends on your GM and how he interprets the RAW.
Specific beats General rules. The specific rules in the Headband beat the general rule on page 555. While I agree your interpretation (while clearly against RAI and the least probable interpretation) could be considered RAW, it is the kind of RAW where you have people going with the interpretation that is not the simplest interpretation. You have to work to theorize you get both sets of skill ranks.
I'm mostly satisfied with my answer from JJ (James Jacobs) and other answers I've gotten, but this whole arguing for argument's sake was actually started by James Risner who didn't agree with me that the RAW were unclear.
I said no such thing. I said that you can't prove your position (that you get the skills twice) from the rules, because your position (your interpretation) isn't the only valid interpretation of the rules. I offered up another valid interpretation (that you only get the skills once and you get the ones the item has hardcoded.) My whole point was this is an "Ask your DM" problem because there is no unambiguous RAW.
Page 17 does not say "You only gain these at character creation", so without some text to explicitly limit it to 1st level you can interpret this both ways: You either get them with increased INT or you only get them at character creation. It depends on your GM and how he interprets the RAW.Specifically, where does it say that you get languages for increased int? It's only at lvl 1 you get them, right? At least that's what p.17 indicates.
It doesn't say specifically that these are those skill points. You have to guess. If you're a rules lawyer playing a wizard crafting a headband and you get both the associated skills AND skill points for high int you haven't done it wrong according to the diffuse RAW. You've stayed within the framework of the rules.
No, it doesn't say "first level". It says: "The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game."
This means you could be creating a high level character and get bonus languages for int, but it also means you don't get any bonus languages if your int score rises later in the game. Disregarding the vague contradiction on p.555 of course. Even with it, if you go by specific beats general p.17 beats p.555 and you don't get languages at any time other than "start of the game" which I assume mean "character creation".Specific beats General rules. The specific rules in the Headband beat the general rule on page 555. While I agree your interpretation (while clearly against RAI and the least probable interpretation) could be considered RAW, it is the kind of RAW where you have people going with the interpretation that is not the simplest interpretation. You have to work to theorize you get both sets of skill ranks.
This is where we disagree. Playing my wizard I actually added the skill points for my int when I next lvled up without even thinking about the fact that I already had gotten the hard coded skills from my recently crafted headband +4. And I even had a headband +2 before this which I also have been adding skill points from. It's really intuitive and easily understandable, but I thought it a bit odd the second time and came here in search of answers. Then I was made aware of p.555 which complicated things(read: messed up) things further.
I'm mostly satisfied with my answer from JJ (James Jacobs) and other answers I've gotten, but this whole arguing for argument's sake was actually started by James Risner who didn't agree with me that the RAW were unclear.I said no such thing. I said that you can't prove your position (that you get the skills twice) from the rules, because your position (your interpretation) isn't the only valid interpretation of the rules. I offered up another valid interpretation (that you only get the skills once and you get the ones the item has hardcoded.) My whole point was this is an "Ask your DM" problem because there is no unambiguous RAW.
At least we agree the RAW is ambiguous at best. :)
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This is fixed with one sentence in the headband description.
"This item gives no bonus skill points for increasing your intelligence."
Then it explains it gives skill ranks. Not the same thing and while technically splitting hairs, is the only way people like the OP won't abuse the thing.
Really its not necessary as its easy to see the design intent in the rules, and reading RAW is stupid.
Its really things like that that allow Iron Heart Surge to end the effects of gravity, drowning, breathing, anti-magic fields, and anything else you could conceive of that is an ongoing condition lasting longer than a single round.
This is fixed with one sentence in the headband description.
"This item gives no bonus skill points for increasing your intelligence."
Then it explains it gives skill ranks. Not the same thing and while technically splitting hairs, is the only way people like the OP won't abuse the thing.
Really its not necessary as its easy to see the design intent in the rules, and reading RAW is stupid.
Its really things like that that allow Iron Heart Surge to end the effects of gravity, drowning, breathing, anti-magic fields, and anything else you could conceive of that is an ongoing condition lasting longer than a single round.
I actually know the OP personally. He's tutoring new DMs and would never abuse loopholes or poorly worded rules, he merely use them pedagogically to give the new DMs more experience, security and understanding of game balance, so you shouldn't be so judgmental. He does, however, have a love for details and discussion.
I think you underestimate the confusion such details can throw unexperienced people into and the effects it has on their experience of the game. It's just tiresome and deducts from the overall gaming experience because you feel you're playing an unfinished or poorly tought through game.
Sure, for dedicated, seasoned players/DMs what you say might hold true in most cases, but far from everybody who picks up this game has that kind of dedication or experience.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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it also means you don't get any bonus languages if your int score rises later in the game.
At least we agree the RAW is ambiguous at best. :)
Well, I don't agree it proves that at all. As for the ambiguity, while I don't think it is ambiguous I have no problem accepting that you do and agreeing that the rules are not precise enough in language to address this corner case. I'll implement the RAW the way I see it reading, and that is that you don't stack the skill points twice and you gain languages when your Int increases. You are free to implement it the other way, provided your DM interprets it that way.
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heres another idea.
wearing the headband for 24 hours drains the magic of the item into the wearer. permenantly. leaving no residue. the headband may be removed with no ill effect. but the wearer benefits from his or her increased intellect, permanently. the old headband becomes perfectly mundane, but of masterwork quality. this bonus does not stack with itself, only the higher applies.
this should be the ruling for all attribute enhancers
you get all the bonuses of increased attribute, but can't change it.
but this just turns it into a cheap tome. so tomes would have to cheapen as well.
heres another idea.
wearing the headband for 24 hours drains the magic of the item into the wearer. permenantly. leaving no residue. the headband may be removed with no ill effect. but the wearer benefits from his or her increased intellect, permanently. the old headband becomes perfectly mundane, but of masterwork quality. this bonus does not stack with itself, only the higher applies.
this should be the ruling for all attribute enhancers
you get all the bonuses of increased attribute, but can't change it.
but this just turns it into a cheap tome. so tomes would have to cheapen as well.
The other problem is that it would lose the entire point of it being a magical item. If you were to use that sort of rule there would be no penalty for picking up one of each of the headbands and using them up. It quickly becomes fairly broken...
Even if you were to limit a person to one mental attribute booster at a time, you would also have problems with how magic items are supposed to function. If the magic becomes an inate part of the character, what happens in an anti-magic field? Also, it means that the character can no longer be disarmed of the benefits of the item, which is a perfectly reasonable DM tool (under very specific circumstances, e.g. characters are imprisoned). Trying to make the magic become part of the character circumvents only a small issue(whether or not the item can be removed for a short period of time without losing the extended bonuses) that can easily be resolved with a quick DM call of whether or not the action is reasonable. However, you quickly open up a can of worms with the drawbacks that sneak in with this fix...
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heres another idea.
wearing the headband for 24 hours drains the magic of the item into the wearer. permenantly. leaving no residue. the headband may be removed with no ill effect. but the wearer benefits from his or her increased intellect, permanently. the old headband becomes perfectly mundane, but of masterwork quality. this bonus does not stack with itself, only the higher applies.
this should be the ruling for all attribute enhancers
you get all the bonuses of increased attribute, but can't change it.
but this just turns it into a cheap tome. so tomes would have to cheapen as well.
The other problem is that it would lose the entire point of it being a magical item. If you were to use that sort of rule there would be no penalty for picking up one of each of the headbands and using them up. It quickly becomes fairly broken...
Even if you were to limit a person to one mental attribute booster at a time, you would also have problems with how magic items are supposed to function. If the magic becomes an inate part of the character, what happens in an anti-magic field? Also, it means that the character can no longer be disarmed of the benefits of the item, which is a perfectly reasonable DM tool (under very specific circumstances, e.g. characters are imprisoned). Trying to make the magic become part of the character circumvents only a small issue(whether or not the item can be removed for a short period of time without losing the extended bonuses) that can easily be resolved with a quick DM call of whether or not the action is reasonable. However, you quickly open up a can of worms with the drawbacks that sneak in with this fix...
so the bonus is drained from the item, that means it can't be shared and no skill or language swap every 2 days, so what if the bonus becomes permanent? since it's part of the character, an anti magic field cannot work. the permenancy just means you have to drain each bonus from a seperate item, reducing cost increase, but increasing it back due to the item's magic being absorbed entirely. you can also now wear that headband you couldn't wear before because you needed that int bonus. it's only a small power increase. the real benefit goes to classes that use the stat, and wizards who don't have to prepare X buff for Y character. Meaning instead of reserving a bulls strength for Carl Mcfighter, Ellie the Evoker Gets to cast another scorching ray. as i said a small power increase. and what kind of DM would be sadistic enough to strip his players of thier hard earned stat bonuses? i can understand stealing the horde of candles of invocation. as they are cheesy, but not the rogues mithril shirt or gloves of dexterity.
So, in other words, I could just use a bunch of +2 headbands of vast intelligence to get the benefits of full ranks in all skills I care about.
Likewise, I don't have to pay any extra money in order to place items in my head/waist slots, because the bonus is permanent.
Do we need yet another reason to make these items so very much a staple on a PC? I think we need ways to unstaple them, if anything.
heres another idea.
wearing the headband for 24 hours drains the magic of the item into the wearer. permenantly. leaving no residue. the headband may be removed with no ill effect. but the wearer benefits from his or her increased intellect, permanently. the old headband becomes perfectly mundane, but of masterwork quality. this bonus does not stack with itself, only the higher applies.
this should be the ruling for all attribute enhancers
you get all the bonuses of increased attribute, but can't change it.
but this just turns it into a cheap tome. so tomes would have to cheapen as well.
I guess if you were to say that you can benefit from the enhancement as long as you don't use any other headband type items.
Otherwise you get all sorts of stacking issues. There are other issues as well. What happens at player death, does the enhancement stick with the body? What if you are reincarnated or True Resd? Can someone dispel the effect or somehow remove it the wya they can remove a magic item?
Overall, I think you are introducing more issues than fixing.
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heres another idea.
wearing the headband for 24 hours drains the magic of the item into the wearer. permenantly. leaving no residue. the headband may be removed with no ill effect. but the wearer benefits from his or her increased intellect, permanently. the old headband becomes perfectly mundane, but of masterwork quality. this bonus does not stack with itself, only the higher applies.
this should be the ruling for all attribute enhancers
you get all the bonuses of increased attribute, but can't change it.
but this just turns it into a cheap tome. so tomes would have to cheapen as well.
I guess if you were to say that you can benefit from the enhancement as long as you don't use any other headband type items.
Otherwise you get all sorts of stacking issues. There are other issues as well. What happens at player death, does the enhancement stick with the body? What if you are reincarnated or True Resd? Can someone dispel the effect or somehow remove it the wya they can remove a magic item?
Overall, I think you are introducing more issues than fixing.
the enchancement would stick with the body, not the soul. so reincanarnate won't keep it, true ressurection would require a fully intact original body. or treat them as a tome of X. and cheapen tomes accordingly. or instead of wealth, for a 1/4 wealth reduction (giving 3/4 wealth by level instead of full) the tequilla sunrise character points variant. (tequilla sunrise tome of houserules for 3rd edition; on the tequilla sunrise library of unearthed arcana) which nets you the combat bonuses of the big 6. with level based limits. +10 permanent enhancement bonus to a stat at level 20. for 5 character points (you get 2 a level) (1 every 4 levels) or +5 to any other combat stat. (Deflection/nat armor/resistance save bonus/enchancement/insight to AC/Damage/saves/ feats) the variant reduces the need for the big 6. but doesn't eliminate it.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So, in other words, I could just use a bunch of +2 headbands of vast intelligence to get the benefits of full ranks in all skills I care about
Sure, if you don't mind waiting 24 full hours between Hat swaps to get the "other" skill ranks when you need them. It isn't like you just swap out the hat and you have +X to Acrobatics now when you didn't 5 mins ago.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Sure, if you don't mind waiting 24 full hours between Hat swaps to get the "other" skill ranks when you need them. It isn't like you just swap out the hat and you have +X to Acrobatics now when you didn't 5 mins ago.
But I can imagine an adventure on the Elemental Plane of Water, where the PCs are given headbands of vast intelligence that have the Swim and Diplomacy skills hard-wired in, as well as the Aquan and Merfolk languages.
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Ok, one of the skills my hat (reskinned into a fedora) gives me is linguistics. Are all my new languages hard-coded into this hat's monstrosity of a stat block too? If one of the skills gained through the hat is a class skill do I gain the additional 3 point kicker class skills normally receive? If I'm disarmed or otherwise relieved of my fancy fedora when do these bonuses go away? And who shot J. R. Ewing?
I'm all for not 'gaming the system', but this is a magic item, not a cohort, animal companion, familiar, special mount, or my lover. If a player came up to me asking about this I'd just tell them to pick two skills they want if they can have the hat crafted for them, or tell them what skills it has if it was found as loot. Simple right?
Ok, one of the skills my hat (reskinned into a fedora) gives me is linguistics. Are all my new languages hard-coded into this hat's monstrosity of a stat block too? If one of the skills gained through the hat is a class skill do I gain the additional 3 point kicker class skills normally receive? If I'm disarmed or otherwise relieved of my fancy fedora when do these bonuses go away? And who shot J. R. Ewing?
I'm all for not 'gaming the system', but this is a magic item, not a cohort, animal companion, familiar, special mount, or my lover. If a player came up to me asking about this I'd just tell them to pick two skills they want if they can have the hat crafted for them, or tell them what skills it has if it was found as loot. Simple right?
A) Anything the hat grants has to be built into it, so if it's linguistics, all bonus languages for ranks have to be built into it.
B) The hat gives you ranks in a skill. If you have ranks in a class skill, you get a +3 bonus. The hat doesn't give you the +3 bonus, the rules do because you have ranks. Short answer, yes, you get class bonuses to the skill ranks granted by the hat. It should be obvious, but before it's asked, yes, you get racial bonuses, stat bonuses (or penalties), class bonuses, enhancement bonuses, circumstantial bonuses, and every other bonus and penalty to a skill you'd normally get if you paid skill ranks for it (Because you did, they just came from the hat).
C) Yes, if you remove the hat for any reason, or if it's removed for you, you lose those bonuses (per raw). A nice GM might give you some 'fudge factor' time to accomodate things like bathing or having a night of fun with the inn keeper's daughter. That's strictly house ruling though, RAW is, if it's removed, it's 24 hours to regain.
D) Nobody, J.R. wasn't shot, it was all a bad dream.
D) Nobody, J.R. wasn't shot, it was all a bad dream.
Actually, that was Bobby Ewing.
J.R. was shot and lost his spleen.
And it was Kristine Shepherd. Funny, I thought it was Sue Ellen. I was still a kid when the show was on air, though :) , so I didn't remember it quite well. Wiki can be a blessing sometimes.
Other than that, I agree on all your other answers (A, B and C).
D) Nobody, J.R. wasn't shot, it was all a bad dream.Actually, that was Bobby Ewing.
J.R. was shot and lost his spleen.
** spoiler omitted **Other than that, I agree on all your other answers (A, B and C).
LOL
I was a kid too, and I never watched it, just vaguely remembered everyone thought it was a 'jump the shark' moment.
It's easy to see why in 3.5 the Intelligence boosting items didn't mess with your skill points, ain't it? :-)
The headband of vast intelligence grants you an Intelligence bonus. We wanted it to also grant skill points, since that's what increased intelligence scores do. What we DIDN'T want was a situation where you get an item that grants an INT bonus and put it on your head and get to pick where those extra skill ranks go there and then... because then what's keeping you from putting those ranks in to, say, Appraise, but then when you get to a locked door you can just take the item off and then put it back on your head and say, "Now those skill ranks are adding to my Disable Device!" Makes the item WAY too versatile.
So the solution was to "hard code" the skill ranks into each item. That way, when you find an INT boosting head band, you not only know what the skill ranks it grants are, but when you take it off and put it back on or pass it around to your friends, it stays the same. It removes the whole "What do I want to be good at today?" problem. And that DOES mean that sometimes you'll find an INT boosting item that overlaps with skill ranks you already have, but that's fine with me since you're still enjoying all the other benefits of the increased INT score just like you did in 3.5 (which, remember, doesn't grant ANY skill ranks for INT boosters).
You certainly don't get the bonus ranks hard coded into the item AND another batch of skill ranks to spend as you wish.
I'll make sure Jason knows that this'll be something we should add to the FAQ. It's not really errata, since it's not really a correction. It's just something that needs more explanation.
EDIT: I'm not sure if excluding bonus languages from the things the headband grants was an oversight or intentional. I think it might have been intentional, but I'm not sure.
James, if a character or creature with an unusually low intelligence (such as an animal companion with 2 intelligence or an orc barbarian with 3 intelligence) were to put on a headband of intellect +6, would they gain any skill ranks as per the items' description?
I think not (their intelligence is still too low), but some people think that you get the ranks regardless, as that's what the headband says.
In which manner was it intended to function? Are you given the ranks as a result of the permanent intelligence increase? Or are you given them just because the headband says youg et them?
James, if a character or creature with an unusually low intelligence (such as an animal companion with 2 intelligence or an orc barbarian with 3 intelligence) were to put on a headband of intellect +6, would they gain any skill ranks as per the items' description?
I think not (their intelligence is still too low), but some people think that you get the ranks regardless, as that's what the headband says.
In which manner was it intended to function? Are you given the ranks as a result of the permanent intelligence increase? Or are you given them just because the headband says youg et them?
I would rule that the bonus skills apply, regardless of what the original intelligence of the wearer is/was.
I would rather keep a consistent rule for any specific item. It makes things flow much easier.
And I think that it could be fun to have a headband a pet or such skills
Ex: give your horse a headband with perception and perform: oratory, then cast share language on them. They can tell you all about what happened in the stabe while you were in the inn, or you can have them put on a show -a talking horse!- as a distraction while you go about your business.
Ex: give your horse a headband with perception and perform: oratory, then cast share language on them. They can tell you all about what happened in the stabe while you were in the inn, or you can have them put on a show -a talking horse!- as a distraction while you go about your business.
Better yet, give your MULE a Headband with Perception and Perform(Oratory), cast Share Language and call it Francis !!!
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FAQ!
Thanks for that Sean, I'm still surprised this had to be answered in an FAQ.
However, there's still a couple of outstanding issues :
Starting Languages : Do permanent increases in INT grant starting languages? The idea behind permanent INT increases being retroactive was to make it easier to make characters at higher levels (doesn't matter when their int became 14 vs 13, they get the same skill points). However, you still have to keep track of it for starting languages if it isn't retroactive. If it is retroactive, then INT headbands would logically have to have a language embedded in them for each +2 granted (which may or may not match a language you already have, oh well). I don't have a problem with this (I play it this way in my games) but official rulings would be nice. If they aren't, then it makes a disconnect between the stated dev intent and the rules as written if you don't get the starting language bonus.
Linguistics : On a related note, if the headband is granting the Linguistics skill, then it grants a number of bonus languages equal to the wearer's HD (Since each rank in Linguistics grants a language). Since I don't think anyone wants languages to be 'changeable' any more than skill points, I think the headbands of INT need an FAQ/Errata about Linguistics stating Languages are built into the headband (in a fixed order, no matter who wears it). I would actually think the linguistics overrides any linguistics they already have, wiping out those languages and replacing them with whatever is in the headband.
Complicated, no? :)
The bonus languages "edit" I was informed by the kindly Gent below has been amended as per the link he showed and in which I am putting here now http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qos
The Headband hardcodes the specific skill (the bonus skill points you get from having a now higher Intelligence, which are bonus skills talked about on pg.555,) so it's easier to keep the listing of your now new skill points and don't have points in a bunch of different skills that you would then need to keep track of. Spells are easy with being removed so there is no reason to keep them jotted down. You lose a spell slot for a spell level, you choose a slot from that spell level's slot for the spells you still have available to cast.
It really isn't that hard to understand.
You remove the headband, you lose the bonus skill points (which are linked to a specific skill stated by the headband which are the bonus skill points talked about on PG 555,) and any spell slots given.
Spike_Rs, necro much?
Also, according to this FAQ the Paizo Devs have decided that starting language acquisition is retroactive. Ie: You get extra starting languages anytime your intelligence goes up.
Spike_Rs, necro much?
Also, according to this FAQ the Paizo Devs have decided that starting language acquisition is retroactive. Ie: You get extra starting languages anytime your intelligence goes up.
That FAQ I didn't see. I was looking for somehting and this is one of the ones that popped up.I don't really look at dates so I didn't know it was from that long ago. I am gonna alter my response to show what you posted. ={D> Thanks.
And i missed the one where the guy had said FAQ lol, there was a lot to read and I missed his and like the three or four around it. It also says in the FAQ that you don't get bonus skill points. A lot to read through and sometimes we miss things.
Once again, thanks for pointing that out. i really should start looking at dates and be more careful with making sure I read all the responses.
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A Headband gives you one "full skill" (that is, the maximum amount of ranks you can have in that skill, generally equal to your character level) per +2 Int bonus after having been worn for 24 hourd. Which skills these are are fixed for each headband.
If you increase in level, the granted ranks increase accordingly.
If a level 20 character wears such a headband for a day, they'll get 20 ranks in the skills that the headband grants (not stacking with existing skill points).
If they hand their headband over to their level 1 friend, said friend would only get 1 rank, in the same skills, and still not stacking with existing skill ranks.
A headband grants no other skill ranks, be it at level up or whatever, except those it grants as part of their "full skills".
No. The bonus skill is those extra skill points.+1"Permanent Bonuses
Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores--#TOC-Ability -Score-BonusesSo if I'm reading correctly, you get the retroactive skills from the Headband in the form of it's chosen skill, but when you level up, you get the extra ranks accordingly? Or nah?
yes.
For example say you had a headband +2 with the skill swim on it. If you put it on when you are 4th level, after 24 hours it will grant you 4 ranks in swim which overlap with any ranks you already have. Now, you gain another level putting you at level 5. You would then have to wait 24 hours, but after that time the headband would now grant you a 5 ranks in swim which overlap with any ranks you already have.
So, no matter what, the skills associated with the headband will have 20 ranks at level 20? After 24hrs, blah blah blah.
Yep.
And the skill associated with the headband has to be something you are trained in?
Does the headband make the associated skill a class skill?
This seems so stupid in juxtapose to just granting retroactive skill points and adjusting your skills per level after you get the headband. And wear it for 24hrs, blah blah blah.
And the skill associated with the headband has to be something you are trained in?
No.
It's really pretty simple. You wear the headband for 24 hours, your Int goes up, you get the commensurate number of skill ranks, but they're preallocated to the headband's skill(s). If you already allocated skill ranks to that skill with your real skill ranks, they don't stack, so you might want to retrain them.
That's it. That's the item.
The headband doesn't make it a class skill.
You don't have to be trained in the skill because the headband MAKES you trained in the skill (trained = "have at least 1 rank in the skill", headband = "you have ranks in the skill").
Since this thread has been necroed...
What happens when the skill added is linguistics?