Dragorine's page

If I were playing a str monk I wouldn't even bother with the +5 dex. Then the feat would be useful all 20 levels

Mystic Armor is another. It was only arcane and occult and now it is on all the lists.

Personally I'd be fine with the Ruffian non simple d6 restriction if all rogues had a non simple d6 restriction.

Webster gives 3 definitions
1: showing disregard for what is holy : WICKED
2: deserving of censure (an unholy alliance)
3: very unpleasant : GOD-AWFUL (an unholy mess)

I would be fine with the game removing all spell attack rolls.

On true strike-If true strike is meant to be part of the balancing of spell attack rolls then druids and all clerics need to have access to the spell without wasting racial feats.

Dragorine wrote:

keftiu wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Neutral champions first and foremost. Their absence makes absolutely zero sense. Doubly so for Champions of Neutral deities.

Got a pitch for True Neutral and CN?

When I think True Neutral Champion I think of Peacemaker from Suicide Squad. Peace at all cost not matter what it takes.

That's LN.

Short of devolving this thread to an argument about alignment my argument is that he doesn't have a code other than peace at any cost. He doesn't care about social structures. He'll break everything down if it gets him what he wants. To me he's N. He's just devoted to his ideal.

They way I see it is you can draw the Jezail with ten paces but only in the 1h grip. Then you'd have to spend an action to 2h grip it like one would do for a weapon with two handed trait(dwarven axe/bastard sword).

I'd say the same thing for pistol twirl. You'd spend a free action to drop to 1h grip than you can use the feat but you'd be stuck in 1h grip until you spent an action to grip 2h.

Anyway that's my 2 cents.

Is that a Dex-focused champion then? 'Cause he could totally get doubling rings to pump up his shield bashing capabilities. Might be great if you're fighting something like an ooze where bludgeoning damage would prevent it from splitting. Sure you could just use any number of other weapons from your loot pile, but then you'd have to waste actions dropping the shield and drawing out the new weapon.

Ring seems pretty valuable to me in that case.

I ran a campaign where the paladin did that exact same thing. He put a boss on his shield and used a doubling ring so all he needed for s, p and b damage was his longsword and shield.

On topic, I can understand why people don't like the mandatory items as presented in the game. For me, I guess I like my character to gain power from more than just leveling up. I know what feat I'm taking when I level up. It's planned. I don't know when I'm getting that new rune. It can be assumed I get a mandatory rune at level x but not at what point at level x. By giving it out automatically it feels less organic to me than finding one as treasure or by earning enough gold to buy one that happens to be available at the level I just attained. For me it adds another power dimension separate from what is completely within my control as a player. I may have to go through some of level x without that bonus or I may get it a level early. Not having that complete control adds some flavor to the game.

That being said I wouldn't mind being in a game that used the automatic progression or even running one if my players preferred.

2) You can't benefit from item bonuses while in Battle Form. Period.

There are a lot of general rules broken by specific rules. When something tells me I use my attack bonus i assume it is my attack bonus. My attack bonus includes an item bonus. It would be the same attack bonus as if i punched the monster. If you don't agree that's fine. I wouldn't ever play a druid at your table though.

I'm in the choose your list group.

I believe that you don't get item bonuses on the specific stats stated in the polymorph spell, but since you can specifically use your stats for attack bonus you do get to use your item bonus because it is using your attack bonus as if you were not WS. It would be like not being able to use a + wisdom item bonus for perception while in WS. It makes no sense. The Prohibition on item bonus is so you don't add bonuses to the already high attack bonus of the level specific spell. The only ambiguous part I wonder about is if you can add alignment or elemental damage with handwraps.

Awesome!! How are you liking Hellknight AP so far? Also I find as a DM with such a large party they have a ton of skill overlap did you have a similar issue? But I am super glad you had fun and enjoying 2e.

So far I'm enjoying it. I chose to run the AP instead of a homebrew because I just don't have the time to write my own story. My players had no issue fitting into the setting and I think each had their moments. There haven't been too many skills being used yet. My dragon sorcerer and bard players teamed up to entertain the crowd at the tavern before the call of heroes and my druid player failed badly on both chances to identify the monsters they were fighting but succeeded on befriending a couple of animals. My cleric player was able to successful "entertain" (unintentionally creep out/scare) some children with stories about Pharasma.

I would be interested in knowing how much you got to improvise as the GM?

Because my first session (as a player) was approximately 50% rules discussion about how stealth, initiative, senses (scent) or recall knowledge work and if acid arrow actually does area splash damage or not (just the most prominent examples).

Kinda killed some of the thrills I had for this edition.

We had no rules discussion. I've spent more time than my players reading the rules and I'm sure I didn't run everything 100% right, but I don't try to actively hurt the fun of my players. If they want to do something I try to let them do it if it makes sense.

Hellknight Hill spoiler

I think in the first few sessions some of the minutia of who some things work will slow things down. I had to look up if rage gave an attack bonus or how sudden charge worked(my barbarian isn't very experienced as a player) just to refresh my memory. I had to look up if produce flame was ranged now (it is).

How different did the sorcs feel to each other?

Both are very different characters. The imperial sorcerer is an iron gut goblin who is very much looking to dab in alchemical crafting and really only took imperial because he wanted to be an arcane caster and hates preparing spells. My dragon sorcerer is an elf who is very much in tune with her dragon bloodline. She wants to grow wings and claws, but as there has only been 2 combat encounters to far neither of them have used a spell point yet.

Hellknight Hill Spoiler

As both are arcane casters they obviously had overlap but, as it was my daughter's first character for a game, I didn't want to ask her to pick something else and I told my other more experienced player mt daughter chose sorcerer but he loves sorcerers. Both had fun and are very different personality wise at the very least.

I just ran my first 2nd edition game on Saturday. I ran the Hellknight Hill adventure path. These are my impressions from running the game.

First and most importantly it felt like Pathfinder. Everyone seamlessly used the three action system and everyone was effective in what they were trying to do barring a bad roll. As a group we had played PF1 many times in the past with the exception of my daughter (age 13) who was enjoying her first ttrpg game ever and she had a blast.

There were 6 PCs and I found the rules for editing encounters fairly easy to work with. Before the session I had gone through the first 2 sections and added monsters or made a monster elite as I felt necessary and it didn't take too much time. There ware times when I had to consult rules since we are not familiar with every class feature or spell but in general it didn't take too long and I assume as we become more familiar with the system that will improve.

Our party make up is caster heavy. The only pure melee is the barbarian. Otherwise we have 2 sorcerers (dragon and imperial), a cloister cleric of Pharasma, a melee focused animal druid with a wolf companion and a bard with a whip. Only the barbarian took damage and between the druid's medicine and the cleric's healing she had no issue staying alive. My imperial sorcerer player loved the 3 action magic missile and my dragon sorcerer player (my daughter) crit on her first casting of electric arc on both targets (bad reflex saves with a natural 2 and 3 respectively). My bard player today told me that this was how a game should be run and that he had a good time.

TLDR: We had a good time. Can't wait for our next session.

In general I also like the game. I think sometimes we focus on what we don't like more than what we do, and I have to say I like a lot more than I dislike. The sorcerer unarmed prof was glaring and I'm not a fan of goodberry taking an hour to cast. To tell the truth I haven't run a game yet. This Saturday will be the first time playing.

CyberMephit wrote:

Not sure why do you think that, given that it worked the same way in PF1?

It's asymmetric with Celestial Armor, which imposes a penalty on all non-Good users. As well as being inconsistent with every other source of Good damage.

Now, maybe the armor's in error instead, but I'd consider Holy and its companion properties being in error more likely.

My wife's cleric can't even cast the Divine spells because Pharasma is TN. It can work both ways. Plus if Aligned weapons worked on everyone but their alignment then that just turns TN into the worst alignment.

One thing I find interesting is Neutrals can now use aligned weapons. They just can't craft the runes.

Seems like the Shield cantrip is your only reliable defense.

The Divine list isn't very well suited to a non-armored caster any more than it ever has been, lacking options like Mage Armor, Blur, Mirror Image, etc. This wasn't an issue for Clerics previously, obviously, but it seems it might be one now.

If the Cleric is going to become more Mage-like, shouldn't the Divine list adapt to compensate a bit?

How would you keep your Priest alive (aside from casting Sanctuary and never attacking ^^ )?

My wife made a cloistered cleric. Her AC at level 1 is 16 with a +3 dex +3 proficiency. I imagine she'll work up to a 20 Dex with Explorer's clothing. If you want to be low dex then that may be an issue but she also uses a dagger (Pharasma) so she can also use dex to hit. Shield brings it up to a 17 and sure my animal druid has a 17 and with her wooden shield can bring it up to a 19, but my druid will be in melee most of the time and her cleric won't.

I always thought the old restriction against metal armor was because natural spirits can't communicate through metal, due to the natural aversion they have to cold iron (as seen by fey type's DR). So druids can use metal weapons, but they can't wear metal armor because that would create a barrier around them that prevents communion with natural spirits.

Ah I like this interpretation. +1

Darkvision+flying+speech can make a pretty interesting scout since they get perception and stealth = to character level + caster ability mod.

Not sure how many offensive touch spells there are for spell delivery. Arcane/Primal 'sting' spells like Spider Sting are touch. No attack roll needed since they are fort saves. Heal is better off using the 2 action version since they are the same number of actions (cast+command or 2 action cast) and you get the bonus 8 healing. Unless the target is 40ft away and the familiar had fast movement.

The bonus low level spell is nice and gaining an extra focus once a day helps many classes that are not low/mid level leaf druids.

Manual dexterity could have a familiar deliver a potion or goodberry or pull a lever or stealth and take something unattended.

I agree they should be able to do 1 damage for an unarmed strike. I guess the developers didn't want to have cats killing commoners any longer.

I guess these are just my thoughts on familiars.

Leaf order also get a 2nd focus point at 1st level.

I have a problem with Goodberry taking a hour to cast. Everyone just waits around for a 1st level druid magically make 1 berry that heal 1d8+5 and save on one ration. Not to mention at level one they can only use their 2nd point to make 1 more goodberry if they have another hour to spend.

How does the order of the boosts change that? It still makes ir so that you could only have an 18 in your key score and no other stat at 1st level, right?

The order shouldn't matter. Adding +2 to main stat 2nd or 4th still gives you the same bonus. Being able to take the 2 flaws to raise str to 18 for the wild druid was what I was referencing.

Solves the issue with wild shape druids not being able to have an 18 str at level 1.

I'd like to put my vote in for disliking the Druid Vestments. I'd rather they make a Wild Rune for armors and that Wild Shaped druids use their attack bonus automatically if its higher than the Form Spell or better yet that Form spells use Proficiency + a Form spell bonus such as Animal Form is Proficiency+5, heightened 4 Prof+7 and heightened 5 Prof+7. I think forcing Wild Druids to use Str for the number of Wild Shapes per day makes sure they are not dumping their physical scores.

I'd guess having separate rules for attack bonus for Wild Shape and the Form spells could prove complicated but using Wild Shape should mean more than reach and bonus hp.

Dinosaur Form Spell Level 4 Prof+7, heightened 5th Prof+7, heightened 7th Prof+10

Elemental Form spell level 5 Prof+8, heightened 6 Prof+8, heightened 7 Prof+8

These numbers were taken from the attack modifier given at each spell level-the minimum level of the druid to cast the spell. IE to cast Animal Form a druid must be level 5. Animal Form attack modifier is +10. 10-5 would give a Prof+5 attack modifier as stated in the first paragraph.

I think it'd be cool to be able to burn your highest spell slot for an extra wild shape.

You can get a ghost touch rune for your handwraps to hit ghosts. It is 35 more gold than +1 rune. You wont be needing potency rune till you get your druid vestments anyway. At that point your potency will do for your druid what it does for all other melee classes...also, wild druid fans may not like it, they can also just cast a spell at it.

Your elemental form's AC bonus would be negated by druid vestments unless it said otherwise.

I would be fine getting rid of the druid vestments. Adding wild as an armor rune would let you use your AC in place of the form spells while wild shaped and I think that while wild shape is being used the caster should innately be able to use their attack bonus if its higher than the form spell's. I'm fine with the form spells themselves not allowing this.

I think there should be feats to buff wild claws incase people want to go a different route than wild shape. I think wild druids should be able to gain access to expert prof without multi-classing. Both clerics and rogues can. I think pest form should have a 1 hour duration for wild shape utility or at least heighten 2 or 3 for it. Let them take a feat at 12, 16 and 19 in place of proficiency casting.

Yeah my wife was playing as a wild order druid and she felt exactly this way which probably points to some low level changes to make that feel a bit more effective and differentiated. Wild claws was not really any better than the Scimitar and Shield she was holding.

Potentially Wild claws should do a bit more in melee so you have incentive to cast it at early levels?

I've been thinking a a druid/fighter build with wild claws and fighter 2wf feats. You wouldn't need a potency rune since wild claws has that built in so gain extra damage on fiery or icy runes...or vorpral.

Dragorine wrote:

The problem is any druid order can do that same thing. Other than leaf getting to move in magical plant terrain and leshy with 3 abilities and goodberry which is worse that channel energy because who tracks rations. Also channeled heal can be improved with a feat and has its own pool and goodberry doesn't.

Other Druid Orders absolutely can do the same thing, but the opportunity cost for Leaf is lower because their base abilities don't really brook further investment. I legit feel bad for Animal Companions whose owners aren't fully investing in Animal Feats.

I admit that channel energy is much better than Goodberry, but honestly I don't particularly mind that maybe Clerics are better healers in most situations. Goodberry is a pretty different healing mechanic regardless, and is not without its own benefits.

I'm not worried about the 'rations' aspect to Goodberry, I see that as mostly an RP item. It is genuinely not that difficult to come up with berries in most biomes through much of the year, never mind your actual rations or the possibility of harvesting them off your Leshy.

I only bring up channel energy because leaf druids get goodberry and leshy and clerics get channel energy and domain. One would hope...all other things being equal...that goodberry could compare to channel energy but goodberry has no use in combat and heals less than channel energy and has nothing to improve it later on. I think druids should be able to heal as well as clerics and i think the leaf order is a good place for those mechanics.

It'd be neat to have an open druid order like the universal wizard school but I don't want that to be the leaf order. I want cool plant powers.

I'd hate for leaf to be a multi-class order. I love the concept of the leaf order and I want to see some nice abilities. Something like improved goodberry, spending spell points to use sunlight to regenerate, a toxic touch attack, barkskin or some sort of thorn armor. Still it'd be fun to have a leaf druid with woodland stride and widen spell center entangle on themselves and watch everyone struggle.

As leaf is right now it's "fine" because it uses the druid's casting abilities and those are basically fine. It is probably ranked 3rd of the 4 orders though.

As of now druids are far too weak to be viable.

I believe druids as casters is fine. I'd like leaf druids to have more than goodberry like some druid feats to aid in healing and the like but overall they are viable. Wild druids are my main issue.

A few issues I have with wild shape is the damage is weak since it doesn't seem to be modified by the potency rune and wild druids, I don't believe, need a maxed out wisdom so I'd rather wilds druids be able choose to have their class stat be str.

I am fine with the number of wild shapes you get per day and their duration. By the time you get animal shape you're one level from having 4(5 if they actually let you use str for your class stat). That's 4 combats plus you still get 2 more animal form from your spell slots and your wild claws for any other combats that may come. The only real issue is for using wild shape for out of combat situations. Form control is too high level and competes with elemental shape. Maybe if it only worked with pest form if they wanted druids to waste 2 actions each combat on wild shape. You'd get an hour long flying form then at level 7.

I feel plant druids feats are boring. Maybe I'm missing something, but talking to plants seems very situational. It's up to the DM to throw plant creatures at you and talking to non-creature plants seems weak. Plus for the few times you may need to talk to a plant there's a spell for that. I had some idea to use the survival skill to train a plant companion but that isn't very fleshed out in the rules here and seems up to DM approval. Goodberry seems the only reason to take leaf druids.

I would add at the same time give druids bards paladins sorcerers the ability to heal as good as healer clerics because we shouldn't need to have every party have a cleric to heal well enough. Good at healing isn't a good class nitch imo.

Are you using the Anti-Paladin in your game, or letting players play it?

If so, are you keep the alignment RAW or letting players play NE and LE as well?

I would let any evil alignment be an anti-paladin. Same as I would alowe any good alignment for a paladin. What I found funny when reading through the anti-paladin was that they have a code of conduct but are CE. The big arguement I heard about why paladins are lawful was because of their code of conduct but it seems anti-paladins can have a code and still be chaotic.

I know if I think multiple skills could be used for a check then I will let the PCs use what ever skill they want that I think could apply. That being said perception would work the best IMO since that is the blanket hey I noticed something skill.