So I made a document comparing the expected damage of a druid using polymorphing spells and wild shape.
Take a look here: link to google doc
Polymorph does not get item bonuses.
"If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can also use the stats of your unarmed attacks instead, which can get an item bonus.
You can also use the stats of your unarmed attacks instead, which can get an item bonus.Wildshape can use your "to hit" and if you mean your unarmed attacks that would only mean the basic punching power.
I have no idea where you are getting the idea of adding item bonuses to the forms attack other than to hit.
Not sure what you mean, the item bonus is just adding to to hit.
The problem is it both says that (in both the form spells and the wild shape feat) but in polymorph at the start of the spells section it clearly says no item bonuses cross over when polymorphed. Looking at the rules here it seems fairly likely that the item bonus doesn’t carry over. But I could see people ruling that it’s the unarmed bonus before the morphing.Specific overrides general. If the feat or spell says you can use your own bonuses if higher, it doesn't matter what the tag says.
I would argue it is ambiguous. That being said, as the item bonus is likely only +3 MAX it shouldn't be too unbalancing. For striking runes and the like I would go the other way though, as it only says your unarmed attack bonus and not everything else.
I would argue it is ambiguous. That being said, as the item bonus is likely only +3 MAX it shouldn't be too unbalancing. For striking runes and the like I would go the other way though, as it only says your unarmed attack bonus and not everything else.The problem is it both says that (in both the form spells and the wild shape feat) but in polymorph at the start of the spells section it clearly says no item bonuses cross over when polymorphed. Looking at the rules here it seems fairly likely that the item bonus doesn’t carry over. But I could see people ruling that it’s the unarmed bonus before the morphing.Specific overrides general. If the feat or spell says you can use your own bonuses if higher, it doesn't matter what the tag says.
The extra dice definitely go away.
As for the attack bonus:
Lose item bonus. If your attack bonus is higher, use it.
The latter does not exclude the former. It's a matter of either order of operations or in which state we check the PC's attack bonus.
I lean toward the item bonus going away as part of the spell. While in that form you aren't limited to that form's attack bonus if yours is higher, while polymorphed and not having access to an item bonus.
You should compare it vs. A fighter or martial mc druid who takes the wildhape feat, thus getting the +2 status on top of their already better to hit with a starting 18 in str and proficiency.So I made a document comparing the expected damage of a druid using polymorphing spells and wild shape.
Take a look here: link to google doc
That would be best, but that only is nice levels 4~10, because animal form stops scaling and the other wild shape feats are too high level.
That would be best, but that only is nice levels 4~10, because animal form stops scaling and the other wild shape feats are too high level.You should compare it vs. A fighter or martial mc druid who takes the wildhape feat, thus getting the +2 status on top of their already better to hit with a starting 18 in str and proficiency.So I made a document comparing the expected damage of a druid using polymorphing spells and wild shape.
Take a look here: link to google doc
what about through spells? I was considering what a fighter/sorc who only took shape spells would be like.
You'd run into the same issue of scaling poorly since your spell levels would fall behind expectations (IE getting 3rd level Animal Form at the level you're supposed to have 4th level Wild Shape).
You'd run into the same issue of scaling poorly since your spell levels would fall behind expectations (IE getting 3rd level Animal Form at the level you're supposed to have 4th level Wild Shape).
sure but since you can use your own accuracy with the spells, i was wondering how they compare.
what about through spells? I was considering what a fighter/sorc who only took shape spells would be like.That would be best, but that only is nice levels 4~10, because animal form stops scaling and the other wild shape feats are too high level.You should compare it vs. A fighter or martial mc druid who takes the wildhape feat, thus getting the +2 status on top of their already better to hit with a starting 18 in str and proficiency.So I made a document comparing the expected damage of a druid using polymorphing spells and wild shape.
Take a look here: link to google doc
You'd want to use your top spells, which would be insignificant for a very long time. At that time, you'd still have so few to cast it'd be hard to use polymorph as a default tactic.
But you'd have hit points, so there's that.A Focus Spell makes a huge difference.
With the form spell determining most of your abilities, it's actually better to go the opposite direction, taking a warrior MCD to get Resiliency and hit points. Get a high Con and you can fight in form most of the time from 3rd level on. It'll hurt though. Your numbers will be mediocre, but you'll potentially have utility & mobility.
what about through spells? I was considering what a fighter/sorc who only took shape spells would be like.That would be best, but that only is nice levels 4~10, because animal form stops scaling and the other wild shape feats are too high level.You should compare it vs. A fighter or martial mc druid who takes the wildhape feat, thus getting the +2 status on top of their already better to hit with a starting 18 in str and proficiency.So I made a document comparing the expected damage of a druid using polymorphing spells and wild shape.
Take a look here: link to google doc
That might be worth checking out. But I don't think it would be too good.
The highest damage form is less than or equal to what you get from a two handed weapon. And you don't get the +2 status bonus from wild shape. So I don't think it'll will ever be good or worth it, but it could be viable.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I believe that you don't get item bonuses on the specific stats stated in the polymorph spell, but since you can specifically use your stats for attack bonus you do get to use your item bonus because it is using your attack bonus as if you were not WS. It would be like not being able to use a + wisdom item bonus for perception while in WS. It makes no sense. The Prohibition on item bonus is so you don't add bonuses to the already high attack bonus of the level specific spell. The only ambiguous part I wonder about is if you can add alignment or elemental damage with handwraps.
The problem is it both says that (in both the form spells and the wild shape feat) but in polymorph at the start of the spells section it clearly says no item bonuses cross over when polymorphed. Looking at the rules here it seems fairly likely that the item bonus doesn’t carry over. But I could see people ruling that it’s the unarmed bonus before the morphing.
"If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties."
It says special statistics. I think it refers to all the statistics from the form (AC, Athletics bonus, attack bonus). But your own attack bonus, which is no special statistic, is normally adjusted by your equipment (otherwise, Wild Shape would fall behind at high levels because of lack of equipment bonus).
I'm in agreement with those who are saying you get item bonuses to attack if you use your own attack modifier. That was how I interpreted it in the first place.
It makes sense because for a good number of characters, their entire approach to combat might hinge on Wild Shape. If you spend levels 1-20 without being able to use bonuses to hit from items, you're not going to have as much fun as the other players, especially since you're already losing out on other item based things.
Either way, I think some developer clarification might help.
You could take Order Explorer - Leshie Familiar and give it Familiar Focus, but yes, it does seem like an oversight that Wild Shape does not increase your Focus Pool, given that it has obvious interaction with Wild Morph, and you would need 2 Focus Points to cast them both.
Even Order Magic doesn't add to your Focus Pool, which is total nonsense.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, that's correct. To get another Focus Point, you would need to either use that Feat at 4 to get a Leshie Familiar, which can Refocus for you in Combat, or you need to MC into something that has Focus point granting Feats, instead of the Fighter. If you want to stay kind of Fightery, maybe go towards Knight Reclaimant? It would take 3 Feats, but at 8 you could take Invoke the Crimson Oath.
There are a couple of Ancestry Feats, like Energized Font that would enable you to Refocus in combat as well.
I actually just noticed that only a leaf order druid can have a leshie familiar. So in order for a wild druid to have more than 1 focus point, they have to take order explorer, which is fine but i feel like this is a huge oversight
Yes quite possibly one of the biggest oversights of the 21st century.