Dirge Of Hubris's page

Dirge Of Hubris wrote:

I've been steadily creating a Leshy for every situation so I'm mad hype for more options. Everything from a Leshy Gunslinger (Johhny Silverseed,) Leshy Draconic Barbarian (Snapped Dragon,) to Leshy Armor Inventor (The Robotanist) who is a walking terrarium.

I imagined the leshy gunslinger, with the glide, suffering from a rifle recoil and flying away to new horizons.

Nah. They are firmly rooted in their firing stance.

I've been steadily creating a Leshy for every situation so I'm mad hype for more options. Everything from a Leshy Gunslinger (Johhny Silverseed,) Leshy Draconic Barbarian (Snapped Dragon,) to Leshy Armor Inventor (The Robotanist) who is a walking terrarium.

The-Magic-Sword wrote:

Was the Fighter v. Alchemist comparison, where the Alchemist has Master proficiency, accounting for the fact that the Alchemist is a boost behind on their throwing stat, since their key stat is intelligence? I know that technically that's only half the game's levels, but I forget which ranges it actually applies to.

I also agree that the drawbacks of that build are pretty severe for the alchemist, given the side effects of the mutagen and the feat investment, whereas the fighter is getting a bunch of 'hidden' benefits in that scenario.

Alch is behind 1-4, 10-14 and 20 on stat (provided they apex dex and they should).

HOLY MOLY. I was reading that as ONE ability boost per five. No wonder my Alchemist is struggling. NO ONE CORRECTED MEEEE. That makes a lot more sense. So I guess really a couple of tune up items and such could really balance this out better but Alch isn't slipping into the Horrible zone.

From memory the problem with master proficiency is sticky bomb. An alchemist using sticky bomb (acid) does more damage than a melee fighter if they have the prof upgrade (assuming 3.3 rounds of persistent).

Math @ level 15

Alchemist hit bonus = 15+6 master+3 quicksilver (no reason not to have this up all the time)+5 dex=+29

Fighter hit bonus = 15+8 legendary+2 item+5 str =+30

Alchemist damage = 1+3 weapon spec+(3d6+8 persistent)+8 splash = 4+18.5 persistent+8 splash= 8 on miss, 73.05 on hit, 138.1 on crit.

Fighter damage = 3d12+2d6+13 = 19.5+7+13=39.5 on hit, 79 on crit.

Then you account for hit bonus - average AC for a level 15 monster is 37, giving the fighter 70% to hit and alchemist 65%.

Alch damage (Quick Alchemy+Sticky Acid)
=0.3(8)+0.5(73.05)+0.15(138.1)=59.639

Fighter damage (Strike+Certain Strike)
=0.2(79)+0.5(39.5)+0.05(79)+0.4(39.5)+0.5(13)=57.85

Now considering the alch can do it from 60ft away at this point... might be problematic.

This is all very nice for strictly damage comparison, EXCEPT with no bonus constitution for either party and assuming both are human for simplicity, the Alchemist has 98 effective hp. 15x8+8 for 128-30 for quicksilver at level 15 which is why you wouldn't want it all the time. The fighter packing 15x10+8 for 158. 60 health/40% ish difference IS A SPICY MEATBALL of an exchange. Fighter attacks are not consumable or limited in scope. And I am incapable of providing average AC comparisons but Quicksilver is also smacking the Alch's treasured jewels for a gentle tickle of -2 Fortitude nonstop as well.

Will any of those damage die or splash changes help the bomb hit?
Core problem still exists. My group has decided to home rule starting proficiency with bombs at Expert and then Master at 7th.

I think it's pretty rad that we got all the way here from suggested proficiency changes.

The damage dealt despite the airball helps bend the dpr math to look more healthy than it feels. Because all players are feeling is "my bomb/spellstrike failed." Again, anecdotally.

I was founding my entire argument on this understanding. Because at the end of the day, it is a role playing, story telling experience. If you narrated your combat rolls, it's gonna be another sad day.

"Hey, Alchy. You ever consider actually hitting the enemy with one of those wild tosses of yours?"
'WAIT. I did my share there. I did like 20 damage.'
"... Across ten bombs that didn't hit." *Laugh track*

Averages are nice, but that's all they are. The fighter in the white room also has a sizeable AC and HP pool.

Are we all just glazing over the fact that Alchemist mutagens and elixirs are extremely limited compared to the spell equivalents per the same level as well? Like, the comparison of a "sword specialist wizard" is el primo for proving my point rather than "bombers are ignoring their generalist class features." If people are having trouble with this now, what happens when the Magus releases? It's going to have buffs to share and be able to hit with dual class features. Do we have the ability to coat our weapons in a bomb? Do we have consistent buffs that also do not carry drawbacks? Bombs are clearly not the only way to play it; Alchemist just also isn't as good as other alternatives at the other things as well. Except toxicologist, clearly, which is ultra niche.

"Alchemists can do this ALL day" is a bad hypothetical because ALL day doesn't help in the fights, skill checks, or roleplaying when the rubber hits the road rim first. WBL comparisons to boot. While I enjoy using a formula to argue validity of an alchemist, it's arbitrary and up for more changes as this game evolves. "I hope this fight drags out long enough for me to shine" is such a just penultimate sad way to consider a class.

I do feel this a lot with regards to the alchemist.

Playing in Gauntlight as an Alchemist bomber atm, and let me tell you: the class feels crippled.

I hit less often than our other ranged combatant (shortbow/dagger switch hitter rogue) and less efficiently.

I hit, and lets say I crit with an alchemist's fire. I hit for 2d8, plus 1 splash.

Rogue crits after hiding, a feat made more likely by their full dex focus AND attacking a flat-footed enemy regularly, they do 4d6+1d10 on a crit, with zero strength score.

Averaging out to 8 damage for me, and 17 for the rogue, if we take the middle ground of the dice.

Now, sure, I can debuff (debilitating from a rogue does the same), can target weakness (literally anyone can throw a bomb or have a rune on a weapon, and a rogue could easily carry a few spell arrows), and can craft potions and the like (also, literally anyone with Crafting can, and rogues can craft MORE and BETTER because of their frequent skill feats).

There is literally nothing a bomber brings to the table compared to other classes. The medicine skill makes potions almost unnecessary except as a very niche option.

The only real benefit I provide to the group is quick access to antiplagues and antidotes. Every single thing I could do is done better by the rogue, who also is trained in medicine.

What niche exactly is the alchemist supposed to fit?

This is literally what I've been seeing across the board for people playing an alchemist. The Alchemist is a crafting basket for better accuracy classes. IF you actually need one of your bombs to inflict their crit or direct hit debuff, you have the fighter throw it instead. I have been stuck in a limbo on whether or not to play a Hobgoblin Fighter or an Alchemist because even if I have to pay for for my crafts in downtime and coin, at least I can count on the bomb actually landing. Yes, Quicksilver Mutagen helps, but it's also going to be the first turn of combat every single time. Everyone else is doing their thing, and Alchs just have to sit back and prepare so they can still hit less on average? Come on now.

I feel like the design philosophy was low-hanging fruit: a non-magical character who does demi-magical effects. Except it doesn't compete with martial, magical, or skill based characters for the above reasons. No matter how you slice it, it's sad that your specialty class features are better off handed to someone else.

Avoid houses and water.

By the time I'm done building this character, Houses and water should avoid me. ;)

So my crew and I have decided upon a thematic party to help us roleplay stronger as a team. The theme we chose is Coven which means we are all witches or witch themed characters and to boot, we are all gestalt because there is only 3 of us playing. We will all be playing an Adventure Path from level 1. So far we have a Vindictive Bastard exPaladin/Witch as a frontline and a ranged Witch/Rogue who worships Calistria.

I'm wanting to play a Diabolist Witch/Wizard the concept ending in a tyrannical Sorceress like Abrogail Thrune. I'm the magical powerhouse and the most experienced member of the Coven. I've been pretty out of Pathfinder for about two years. If you guys have any suggestions to help me get up to speed, I would be stoked to hear them.

"No one travels alone in our group. You can show us equal respect and trust by having your leader come out to meet us the same as we are coming here to meet you. You are merely attempting to isolate us for some unknown reason."

"If'n you'll trust me, follow me."

Putting a hand on Nyssa's shoulder, Gavin will prepare an action to lead her the twenty feet to the front if she so desires.

"OR it is a ravenous, terra-dwelling monstrosity who knew full well that it was capable of killing everyone of us since the water here makes the surroundings sick. Otherwise, why would it wait at the entrance?"

Gavin will use his Adhesive spittle on the next turn. The Save DC for the exact same effect as a tangle foot bag is DC 14.

Rearing back, Gavin will spit a globule of green adhesive directly at the amphibian-esque attacker.

"And for the record, I brought all these fine people to help search for your father this time. Worth more than any out-of-control backpack, kiddo.

Now tell me. You have any idea on where Khonnir was going or what Khonnir was planning on doing before he set out this last time? If anything can you tell me anything about his first expedition? Anything he may have told only you?"

"Aurusk, ye say? Rough soundin' name for what appears to be a rough lookin' fellow. You definitely seem a gentle man though, and that says lot right now."

Taking Aurusk's welcoming gesture, he gives him a gentle handshake then turns to the lady.

"And Alexis, s'it? I don't know much about warrior-poets or Ustalav so I will assume you to be of Taldoran-make until I can summise your abilities. Or 'til you object in some manner."

Tipping his hat to Alexis, Gavin turns to the tough looking man speaking about the Gillmen.

"'Suppose that be leavin' you, ser." And Nyssa if/when they get back te 'ere. "I assume you be a might rougher than the sir Aurusk given the cut o' yer garm and musculature. Doubt people be praisin' yer subtler qualities."

"Val... That girl. My last couple of encounters with her have been a little frustrating, but that is a whole 'nother story. Best I be introducin' you all though. No telling what's going on in that little head o' hers. 'Fore we get to that part though, best I know your names and professions. I'll start; name's Gavin, and I'm a might far from home on a venture here to help Khonnir."

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

2. The familiar took a step toward a spirit animal concept, but I dont think that goes quite far enough. I am beginning to think that it might need to go off in a different direction.

Stuff is sounding good. Here's my suggestion for the familiar, roughly:

Spirit Bond
You have the choice of a bonding to either a spirit fetish or a spirit familiar.
Spirit fetish is (blah blah blah) it's a wizard's arcane bonded object with slightly different thematics. Pet-less option, flavorful, and works well for shamans who don't have strong animal affinities.
Spirit familiar is (blah blah blah) it's like the current version except it's treated as a fey, can be turned into a passive entity (like the tattoo familiar), is so strongly bonded it only dies at -2x Con, and it at high enough level, can be briefly ethereal.

New Feat
Guardian Spirit Familar
Prerequisites: spirit familier
Benefit: Your spirit familiar gains the base statistics of an animal companion, including ability scores, attacks, and the other line items listed in AC. It hit points are now equal to yours, rather than half.

A feat seems a bit crazy, but it would be awesome if that was merely a feature of the class to begin with. IMO this should be treated like an lesser Eidolon/animal companion given the fact that when the thing is dead, you can't do a thing until you perform a ritual of doom. A completely separate listing of choices from the familiar lists or even something like the Necrocraft would go a long ways towards flavor-into-mechanics.