Dirge Of Hubris's page

Dirge Of Hubris wrote:

I've been steadily creating a Leshy for every situation so I'm mad hype for more options. Everything from a Leshy Gunslinger (Johhny Silverseed,) Leshy Draconic Barbarian (Snapped Dragon,) to Leshy Armor Inventor (The Robotanist) who is a walking terrarium.

I imagined the leshy gunslinger, with the glide, suffering from a rifle recoil and flying away to new horizons.

Nah. They are firmly rooted in their firing stance.

I've been steadily creating a Leshy for every situation so I'm mad hype for more options. Everything from a Leshy Gunslinger (Johhny Silverseed,) Leshy Draconic Barbarian (Snapped Dragon,) to Leshy Armor Inventor (The Robotanist) who is a walking terrarium.

I absolutely hate to rely on references to pop culture, but I would like an AP designed like Dragon Age: Origins. The massive threat to Avistan is Tar-Baphon; have the PCs travel from country to country forming alliances and gathering materials for the war effort to come. From Alkenstar gunsmiths to Halcyon Speakers, to rubbin elbows with Telandia and Azaersi, you could get all the major players in the world to reveal their hand to slap the Whispering Tyrant about. Could be on the scaling of Wrath of the Righteous. A lot of the old APs happened almost completely on the down low. Of the APs I've played, I think of Iron Gods the most in how limited its scope of influence was, and that is something I enjoyed the least as a "hero."

*pushes glasses* AXCTUALLY, you see if you look on page 95 of the Character Guide, there is a Knight Reclaimant example image. They are loading a holy bullet into a revolver. IN setting there is a lot of different locales using guns now other than just Alkenstar. Like A LOT so rarity in Golarion is not as big of an issue. Ustalav has backgrounds that give Lore Engineering which matches the image. The World Guide entry on Alkenstar talks about Ricia's trade ideals and how far they have been pushing their firearm tech all over world now.

Really, just the art design alone for all the characters I've seen makes me think this was a low hanging fruit argument all around.

The-Magic-Sword wrote:

Was the Fighter v. Alchemist comparison, where the Alchemist has Master proficiency, accounting for the fact that the Alchemist is a boost behind on their throwing stat, since their key stat is intelligence? I know that technically that's only half the game's levels, but I forget which ranges it actually applies to.

I also agree that the drawbacks of that build are pretty severe for the alchemist, given the side effects of the mutagen and the feat investment, whereas the fighter is getting a bunch of 'hidden' benefits in that scenario.

Alch is behind 1-4, 10-14 and 20 on stat (provided they apex dex and they should).

HOLY MOLY. I was reading that as ONE ability boost per five. No wonder my Alchemist is struggling. NO ONE CORRECTED MEEEE. That makes a lot more sense. So I guess really a couple of tune up items and such could really balance this out better but Alch isn't slipping into the Horrible zone.

Am I sitting in amateur hour here with the boosts in general. In the HP comparison, the Alchemist spends three of their boosts across 15 levels only in Fortitude, but none in Intelligence or Dex? So they don't have a +5 to hit from Dex in this comparison? So AC is different as well? Is this common place for martials/supports to sink their boosts into Constitution through 15?

From memory the problem with master proficiency is sticky bomb. An alchemist using sticky bomb (acid) does more damage than a melee fighter if they have the prof upgrade (assuming 3.3 rounds of persistent).

Math @ level 15

Alchemist hit bonus = 15+6 master+3 quicksilver (no reason not to have this up all the time)+5 dex=+29

Fighter hit bonus = 15+8 legendary+2 item+5 str =+30

Alchemist damage = 1+3 weapon spec+(3d6+8 persistent)+8 splash = 4+18.5 persistent+8 splash= 8 on miss, 73.05 on hit, 138.1 on crit.

Fighter damage = 3d12+2d6+13 = 19.5+7+13=39.5 on hit, 79 on crit.

Then you account for hit bonus - average AC for a level 15 monster is 37, giving the fighter 70% to hit and alchemist 65%.

Alch damage (Quick Alchemy+Sticky Acid)
=0.3(8)+0.5(73.05)+0.15(138.1)=59.639

Fighter damage (Strike+Certain Strike)
=0.2(79)+0.5(39.5)+0.05(79)+0.4(39.5)+0.5(13)=57.85

Now considering the alch can do it from 60ft away at this point... might be problematic.

This is all very nice for strictly damage comparison, EXCEPT with no bonus constitution for either party and assuming both are human for simplicity, the Alchemist has 98 effective hp. 15x8+8 for 128-30 for quicksilver at level 15 which is why you wouldn't want it all the time. The fighter packing 15x10+8 for 158. 60 health/40% ish difference IS A SPICY MEATBALL of an exchange. Fighter attacks are not consumable or limited in scope. And I am incapable of providing average AC comparisons but Quicksilver is also smacking the Alch's treasured jewels for a gentle tickle of -2 Fortitude nonstop as well.

dmerceless wrote:

Cyouni wrote:

I'm actually curious as to why this has come up. Especially if you look at low level comparisons, if we try and equalize the "extracts" and maximize the bombs:

PF1 (Int 18, headband at 4): 5/6/7/9/10 bombs, 2/3/4/6/8 extracts
PF2 (Int 18, no research field): 6/8/8/10/10 bombs, 4/4/6/6/8 elixirs

You're actually better off than PF1 for the low levels. So the question is, what's the problem here? Is it because people are using "fast bombs" to throw multiple in a round? Is it because they expect to throw bombs every round of every day? Some other reason?

I don't play and haven't played 1e for more than 2 sessions, and neither do my fellows, so the comparisons don't really mean much to us. I can at least try to answer you question though with the feedback that was given to me. It basically boiled down to "people want to do cool alchemical things every round, and if you try to do that before perpetuals (especially in the very early levels), you'll quickly find yourself using a crossbow instead".

Martials can always be martial. Casters can always be casters because cantrips are very serviceable now. Alchemist is the only class in the game stuck in this weird paradigm for a long time.

That's...not really realistically possible, though. Alchemy can't be reliably useful, universally accessible, infinite, and balanced. The only real solution to that is really to add something like level 0 elixirs/bombs that are significantly less effective, and I don't think anyone would be happy with that.

Making reagents more like invested items (in that there's a high static cap) wouldn't really be helpful either, because that would definitely tax new players to have the choices of a mid-level alchemist.

I think that alchemists fall significantly closer to martial on that scale than they do casters, and should be treated more like a martial. They get martial defensive proficiencies, for example (comparable to fighter), and their weapon proficiency...

I appreciate your math work in a big way, but I am conflicted on the martial comparison.

Spell proficiency is more similar to bombs and elixirs in my stance as they are both mostly consumable resources, be it scrolls or spellslots, ya know? All of them continue to advance to at least master at 15th.

Will any of those damage die or splash changes help the bomb hit?
Core problem still exists. My group has decided to home rule starting proficiency with bombs at Expert and then Master at 7th.

I think it's pretty rad that we got all the way here from suggested proficiency changes.

The damage dealt despite the airball helps bend the dpr math to look more healthy than it feels. Because all players are feeling is "my bomb/spellstrike failed." Again, anecdotally.

I was founding my entire argument on this understanding. Because at the end of the day, it is a role playing, story telling experience. If you narrated your combat rolls, it's gonna be another sad day.

"Hey, Alchy. You ever consider actually hitting the enemy with one of those wild tosses of yours?"
'WAIT. I did my share there. I did like 20 damage.'
"... Across ten bombs that didn't hit." *Laugh track*

Averages are nice, but that's all they are. The fighter in the white room also has a sizeable AC and HP pool.

Are we all just glazing over the fact that Alchemist mutagens and elixirs are extremely limited compared to the spell equivalents per the same level as well? Like, the comparison of a "sword specialist wizard" is el primo for proving my point rather than "bombers are ignoring their generalist class features." If people are having trouble with this now, what happens when the Magus releases? It's going to have buffs to share and be able to hit with dual class features. Do we have the ability to coat our weapons in a bomb? Do we have consistent buffs that also do not carry drawbacks? Bombs are clearly not the only way to play it; Alchemist just also isn't as good as other alternatives at the other things as well. Except toxicologist, clearly, which is ultra niche.

"Alchemists can do this ALL day" is a bad hypothetical because ALL day doesn't help in the fights, skill checks, or roleplaying when the rubber hits the road rim first. WBL comparisons to boot. While I enjoy using a formula to argue validity of an alchemist, it's arbitrary and up for more changes as this game evolves. "I hope this fight drags out long enough for me to shine" is such a just penultimate sad way to consider a class.

I do feel this a lot with regards to the alchemist.

Playing in Gauntlight as an Alchemist bomber atm, and let me tell you: the class feels crippled.

I hit less often than our other ranged combatant (shortbow/dagger switch hitter rogue) and less efficiently.

I hit, and lets say I crit with an alchemist's fire. I hit for 2d8, plus 1 splash.

Rogue crits after hiding, a feat made more likely by their full dex focus AND attacking a flat-footed enemy regularly, they do 4d6+1d10 on a crit, with zero strength score.

Averaging out to 8 damage for me, and 17 for the rogue, if we take the middle ground of the dice.

Now, sure, I can debuff (debilitating from a rogue does the same), can target weakness (literally anyone can throw a bomb or have a rune on a weapon, and a rogue could easily carry a few spell arrows), and can craft potions and the like (also, literally anyone with Crafting can, and rogues can craft MORE and BETTER because of their frequent skill feats).

There is literally nothing a bomber brings to the table compared to other classes. The medicine skill makes potions almost unnecessary except as a very niche option.

The only real benefit I provide to the group is quick access to antiplagues and antidotes. Every single thing I could do is done better by the rogue, who also is trained in medicine.

What niche exactly is the alchemist supposed to fit?

This is literally what I've been seeing across the board for people playing an alchemist. The Alchemist is a crafting basket for better accuracy classes. IF you actually need one of your bombs to inflict their crit or direct hit debuff, you have the fighter throw it instead. I have been stuck in a limbo on whether or not to play a Hobgoblin Fighter or an Alchemist because even if I have to pay for for my crafts in downtime and coin, at least I can count on the bomb actually landing. Yes, Quicksilver Mutagen helps, but it's also going to be the first turn of combat every single time. Everyone else is doing their thing, and Alchs just have to sit back and prepare so they can still hit less on average? Come on now.

I feel like the design philosophy was low-hanging fruit: a non-magical character who does demi-magical effects. Except it doesn't compete with martial, magical, or skill based characters for the above reasons. No matter how you slice it, it's sad that your specialty class features are better off handed to someone else.

With so many Changelings, check out the Coven Caster feat:

Quote:

You share your mother’s gift for working in groups.

Prerequisite(s): Changeling.
Benefit(s): As a standard action, you can attempt a special aid another action (1d20 + your choice of your Intelligence or Charisma modifier; DC 10). If you succeed, you can increase an adjacent spellcaster’s caster level by 1 until the beginning of your next turn. If you also have the coven witch hex, you can apply this bonus to all members of your coven within 30 feet.

In addition to reading the ARG's Changeling, read the bestiary's Changeling. There is information in one that is not in the other.

Be sure to watch out for 'the call'. It can really mess up your plans.... Or make them Evil!

/cevah

I perused those guides pretty tightly. I found a coven-touched feat that would allow the Nonwitch player to join the coven. I also found some super awesome coven teamwork feats in Blood of the Coven since we have that as a physical copy. It showed us all the options for hags and the minutia so far. However, those links you provided for the d20pfsrd gives some pretty cleaned up and concise insight as well so thanks for the assist.

So an update of larger proportions: We've decided as a group to run the Coven in the Strange Aeons AP. We are all changelings, and the party setup is Witch/Alchemist (Grenadier) serving as our archer/bomber, a Bard/Cavalier (Sister in Arms) going for a gestalt Prestige Battle Herald/Dragon Disciple for a supporty frontline, and me, a Spell Sage Wizard (Spell Sage)/Witch which spells real hard and good.

Everyone else is pretty well balanced across the board, I am so SAD that I went Witchborn alternate trait and have a 20 Int on 15 point buy. It's a high risk build for a dangerous AP sitting at 8 Str and Dex, 10 Con and Wis against Abberrations. I needed the Charisma for dealing with Devils in the future but I'm really second guessing that high of Int and Charisma.

Our Alchemist/Witch is really straight forward to work with and I've got that pretty much figured out for helping them.

Our Frontliner is a Basic Bard and Sister in Arms from the Adventurer's Guide. It's pretty awesome the things the Gray Maidens can do and there is a chance he will rebuild to become a Sanguine Angel with the new fighting style granting Teamwork feats to allies.

I've never done a campaign journal so I dont know if that's specific term. But I hope to keep most of our stuff posted for the fun of it.

If you want 1st party only, grab the Iron Collar of the Unbound Coven for 46,000 gp to form your coven. Or go with the Simulacrum spell to make a hag loyal to you. [The spell is Sorcerer, Wizard, Summoner, and Void school.]

/cevah

I have never read that spell correctly, and that is spectacular. We are first party only.

I'm going to come back with each of our builds and what AP we play in. I'll give you guys updates as we move along, and you can help us figure out where we can go in our builds. So living advice forum. :)

Avoid houses and water.

By the time I'm done building this character, Houses and water should avoid me. ;)

I think Occultist Arcanist makes for a good convo as it gives summon monsters and all planar ally spells. The fact summons have no time limit at lv20 jist makes it better in my opinion. Wizards has the benefit of the True Name discovery.

Evangelist/Exalt is easilly one of the best combos for any class specially in gestalt due to sheer bonuses you get.

One of the evil casting prc (ex: diaolist) can also be good thematically. Im not sure on the mechanics.

I have been eyeing the Occultist REAL close too just for versatility let alone the HP and Saves, but I've discovered the Spell Sage Wizard and infinite versatility. The Diabolist gave a few features that could make a defining difference like Infernal Charisma especially if I commit to the ritual that turns you into a half fiend.

Thanks for the help first of all. I've been reading a buddy's Blood of the Coven, and it's where we got the idea initially to do this. There is a Hag Crone deity that makes you function as Hag for the sake of a Coven as well. Divination is certainly a powerful school to focus in as a Wizard. I'm thinking about adding more Changeling Witches to our coven with the Recruits feat as well to help with ritual magicks later on. Now the struggle is coming down to what to actually gestalt with Witch to create a strong caster backbone for the group. I even considered some odd cheese by taking prestige gestalts like Evangelist/Exalted. I've got a lot of options and the decision fatigue is real!

So my crew and I have decided upon a thematic party to help us roleplay stronger as a team. The theme we chose is Coven which means we are all witches or witch themed characters and to boot, we are all gestalt because there is only 3 of us playing. We will all be playing an Adventure Path from level 1. So far we have a Vindictive Bastard exPaladin/Witch as a frontline and a ranged Witch/Rogue who worships Calistria.

I'm wanting to play a Diabolist Witch/Wizard the concept ending in a tyrannical Sorceress like Abrogail Thrune. I'm the magical powerhouse and the most experienced member of the Coven. I've been pretty out of Pathfinder for about two years. If you guys have any suggestions to help me get up to speed, I would be stoked to hear them.

I think out of all the APs I have played so far, Iron Gods has been the most kind. Nothing like the Hunters lodge in Reign of Winter... So mostly I would say, think first and don't press buttons that are not labeled.

EDIT: I'm planning on playing a sacred fist with a 2 level dip in MoMs once my groups Iron Gods game starts. Not looking for spoilers, but any advice from someone who's already lived it would be appreciated. :)

All the way into Lords of Rust, you will not have any problems. Dangerous things will use touch ac (not your problem) or fortitude saves (Probably not your problem.) Grapple is not present. Mostly lots of skills checks. I am trying to think of one piece of advice to help you out, but honestly, the Sacred Fist is going to already have it covered. Don't be ashamed to go in and out during the Dungeon Crawl. It is designed for it. OH! Magic and technological equipment is moderately rare. You will get all of your wealth in clumps and generally in one large item that most people can't use. That was a real hang-up for me at first.

Thanks for the tips. I still have quite a bit of story to work on. Where he had awoken, why he hunts aberrant life, etc.

I've been working on IO7 Irving Reed, a Pureblade Slayer, the last hour or so. I dipped one level for Techslinger so I could use the firearms the party tends to sell. The build is a little wonky as I usually go the spell casting route, but I have pretty steady abuse of the Ranger Combat Style Talent handling much of the heavy lifting.

Looks like there is a pureblade archetype for the Slayer that comes from Numeria. Android Pureblade could be pretty awesome.

I was thinking something like a Rogue or Inquisitor. Slayer is pretty good fit. Any ideas on how to implement that with a story though? I am pretty dry on martial stories.

I always loved the Winter Witch PrC, but we all know it is hard to work with.

Hey, amigos. I have been a part of Iron Gods for a little while now. I am in Lords of Rust currently, but that doesn't really matter right now.

What I need from your bountiful brains is a character concept and/or class to bring to the table. Currently, we have a Half-Orc Barbarian who is retraining into Cyberwarrior Fighter so they can become a robot-thing. who knows why he wants it; he just does. We also have a Changeling Druid who's mother is from beyond the stars. She adventures to find her and slay her for past transgressions. AND lastly, we have a Gebite Arcanist/Agent of the Grave trying to become a Mummy Lord.

Where did I fit in all this? I was a MoMS Monk/Sacred Fist Warpriest of Asmodeus following the fighting style of the Golden Erinyes. There was a scrap golem that the GM misread... He accidentally used a Clockwork Golem and it functioned like a woodchipper when you throw a buffalo in it. Disable Construct shut the beast down, but not before it made sausages out of my character. So that is where I need you guys to come in and help me round this off. We are missing a blaster and a little bit of tanking (the barbarian is a new player.) Any cool character concepts to give a guy a slight push?

I was thinking as far as: pour in eldritch ingredients, stir, boil and bam! Mystic back-up from a far away plane. But I see your point for sure.

Conjuration: Cauldron

I've been reading more and more of these 3pp classes. I think the primary issue is the limitations on the spellcasting list for the machinesmith. Would you mind if I did some tweaking to get them up to snuff or semi-par like an alchemist or Investigator?

Decided to go with the Entobian race from Alluria publishing. The character shall be a larvite OBSESSED with metamorphosis, both machine and flesh.

I would like to present a character bent on turning themselves into a machine via the Transmechanical Ascendant/Machinesmith. I wouldn't mind if we started with no items. I am sure I could fight my way to the top. I am thinking going Jonagite race from Gungnir Devs. All penalties with scaling stuffs based right along the same lines as my ideal.

Right now, I think any of us can do just about anything, but kudos to you, amigo Wombat, for all your hard work. Hopefully it goes rewarded!

As soon as you said Sin City, my interest went from "slightly wary" to "completely stoked." That sounds like a genius set-up.

It's whatever level for me. I haven't done an above level 4 start since the Complete Champion released.

The struggle is real with this story. I have had the crunch completed for since yesterday, but the background is killing me for some reason.

Quick question: Would you be against an amputee? I am considering a one-armed brawler (which may sound like a blind fighter pilot.) I was going to see if you would allow me to have a wooden prosthetic forearm (non-mechanical.)

I think Drow of the Underdark is probably the best book produced out of 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons as far as setting, flavor and balance. I perk up my ears at a game like this, but it will either be awesome or totally terrible depending on players so consider me interested but wary!

starting gold: 3d6 ⇒ (2, 1, 2) = 5

Game hates me already. Haha! Multiplied by ten for fifty plus 300 for the Push the Cargo Through trait for 350. Too much for a monk type but I am sure I will find a purpose for it.

`Assuming you really want to play that particular character, you are welcome to link up to my character if you want, as shes a noblewoman, although currently on the run. That said I encourage you to pick whatever trait you wish, don't feel the need to link with someone else if you don't wish to!

Considering our potential for extremely mobile combat, that could be a dangerous pairing mechanically. Roleplay-wise, are you a Chelish noble or some other regional human?

Ok. I used to be up to speed on Cthulhutech. I ran a widow tager and stealth got out of hand because the enemies lacked the chance to defend since damage is based on comparison. Are you still using the framewerk system?

Another guide
Here is another incredibly good guide.

I would like to throw my hat into the arena for a go. Going to create a brawler. If someone wants to play a noble of some sort, I would be willing to go with the Push the Cargo Through trait as a mercenary bodyguard for them. Other than that, I will probably avoid that trait.

Stat rolls were abominable. I have a quick question before I flesh out my character though; where is your stance on the techno-crafting? I understand it would be rare with the laboratories and such, but would it be possible/rewarding enough for the group if I went that route?

Once people said that there were spoilers in the Tech Guide, I let it sit in my downloads rather than reading it front to back like I usually do new releases. I am also stepping away from the Android race. I got overly excited at an Inquisitor of Brigh, but I got new machinations churning in my creative parts. >:D

Dotting.

Android Barbarian named Glitch.

I had that same idea. The issue is that Androids CANNOT benefit from morale bonuses (and thus rage...) It is sad.

I took that personally for some reason. I don't know why. It seemed simple to sacrifice something for roleplay principle, but I forget that sets a precedent for actual cheese. I will make that character and another. I would prefer to play a cool barbarian robot man-thing, but I get what you are saying. If you like my story, we can go from there.

*Edit* It seemed like a cool idea until I saw that Androids cannot benefit from Morale bonuses. All that rage with no bonuses.

Dotted for interest. *processing Omicis Sigma, Inquisitor of Brigh, secondary healer and combat support construct*

Even though it was in the Inner Sea Bestiary? I figured scrapping a single ability was different than constructing your own.

Yay for bumps. It would appear everyone wants to roll the Advanced Class Guide right now.

If I gave up Nanite Surge (3 RP because an Android is 16 rp,) would you mind an Android Barbarian? I have a pretty nice image of a post-apocalyptic wandering, Numerian-plate mail wearing robot wielding a slab of sharpened black metal.

You have a Wizard, a Witch, and a Rogue. Am I missing anyone else?