Dietrich von Sachsen's page

So my party just encountered the leech swarms in Schloss Caromarc tonight. That was a brutal encounter. And whilst we've had some brutal encounters thus far, this one really soured my players.

So when I was looking at the Leech stat block at the start of combat, I noticed something. Like all swarms, the leeches deal 2d6 automatic damage if they share a space with a character (as expected), and have a DC 15 Fort save for their distraction (again, as expected). They've also got Blood Drain, which deals an automatic 1d3 Str and 1d3 Con damage at the start of each turn. Nasty, but again, reasonably expected for leeches.

But what I didn't expect was the poison.

Poison (Ex) Swarm—injury; save Fort DC 15; frequency 1/round for 2 rounds; effect 1d4 Dexterity drain; cure 1 save.

First of all, are leeches actually poisonous in the real world? I didn't think they were (Though I'd be content to be corrected on that).

But secondly - and this is the crux of my question - why on God's Green Earth (tm) are ordinary, regular leeches dealing ability score drain? The kind that cannot be cured by any magic the 6th-level party encountering them could possibly possession, and that requires a return to town and multiple, expensive castings to deal with?

Is this just a typo, and it should be damage, not drain? It seems excessive for a CR 4 creature.

I think the choice of the word "Specialized", in retrospect, was probably a poor one.

You're quite right about the surgeon's tools - I incorrectly mixed up First Aid with Treat Deadly Wounds.

Regarding #5, it applies to the entire effect of the feat. Think of Healer's Hands (and conduit feats as a category) as being an "X times per day" ability. ^_^

That was my assumption, but the order of the wording left it somewhat ambiguous.

So recently my group had an interesting discussion about non-magical healing options and using the Heal skill, and so I decided to roll up a 5th level Dhampir Alchemist with the Chirugeon archetype and a ludicrous Heal modifier. However, as a result of this unusual build, I have some questions about how some of these things interact.

1) For the Specialized Healer's Satchel (Healer's Handbook, pg 28), does it comes with all four abilities (Diagnosis, First Aid, Long-Term Care, and Treatment), or does the creator of the bag have to pick one?

2) The Healer's Satchel says:

"The wielder also gains a +4 circumstance bonus on Heal checks when she expends uses of the healer’s satchel to treat poisons and provide first aid (this does not stack with the normal +2 circumstance bonus granted for using a healer’s kit)."

My character also has Surgeons' Tools:

"When used in conjunction with a healer’s kit, surgeon’s tools raise the kit’s bonus to a +3 circumstance bonus on Heal checks to treat wounds or deadly wounds."

Does the bonus from Surgeons Tools stack with the improved Healer's Kit bonus, for a total of +5, or does the +4 bonus overrule the Surgeon's Tools?

3) My character also have a Boline:

"Bolines are hook-shaped knives commonly used by herbalists and spellcasters to harvest ingredients for their craft. A boline’s blade is typically 5 inches long, and is too small and irregular to use as a weapon. You can use a boline to finely slice the herbs in a healer’s kit, so you can treat deadly wounds with only a single use from a healer’s kit rather than two uses."

Does this work with the Healer's Satchel?

4) The Healer's Satchel description reads:

"When the wielder expends 2 uses from a healer’s satchel to treat deadly wounds with the Heal skill, she adds her Wisdom bonus to the amount of hit points restored, and if she exceeds the DC by 5 or more, she adds 2 × her Wisdom bonus to the amount restored."

My character has the Incredible Healer feat, which allows me to heal hp = my Heal Check instead of "the normal amount". Does this extra bonus from the Healer's Satchel apply to the Incredible Healer feat, or is it only added to "the normal amount"?

5) Final question - honest! My character has the Healer's Hands feat:

"You can use the Heal skill to treat deadly wounds as a full-round action. You do not take a penalty for not using a healer’s kit when treating deadly wounds this way, and you can do so on a given creature more than once per day. When treating deadly wounds this way, if your result exceeds the DC by 10 or more, add your ranks in Knowledge (planes) to the damage healed. These benefits do not apply to creatures that are not healed by positive energy. You can use this feat’s benefit a number of times per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (planes)."

Concerning that last sentence... does that apply just to the adding of the Knowledge (planes) modifier to the damage healed, or to everything (including the use as a full-round action and the multiple times per day treating deadly wounds)?

I know it's a lot of questions, but I want to make sure I've done this build correctly.

In my experience, the efficient stats of a Chain Shirt mdkes every other liht afmor a completely moot point, save for Leather as your go-to armor on 1st adventurers. It's like the alternatives might as well not exist. If armor check penalties are an issue, of you have super high dex, just get it in Mithral.

And when it comes to the next catagory, that lightweight material throws off medium armor even more. A Breastplate suddenly has a near nonexistant check penalty and a max dex mod that even an archer could appreciate. Hell, if you knock the check penalty down wih a trait, you don't even need to be PROFICIENT to wear it without an issue. All this without hampering your movement speed.

I find a lot of my players with high dexterities go for MW Studded Leather for much of their early career because of the armour check and weight. Obviously once they can afford it, mithril is brilliant.

I also see a lot of players use leather, studded leather, and leather lamellar as barding for their horses for the protection, without hampering the horses' movement.

EDIT: Also, Lamellar Cuirass is the best armour for spellcasters. +2 AC, +4 Max Dex, no Armour Check and only 5% Spell Failure. And it's a bargain at 15 gp.

Actually the worst item on the list is scale mail, which stopped being worn around Roman time- in fact the Romans only used it ceremonially.

Perhaps they meant Brigandine?

Well Scale Armour wasn't exclusively worn ceremonially, and even as late as the 1400's some parts of medieval armour had scale components, typically as a skirt covering the groin. But you're right, it was never very popular for a number of reasons.

That said, if we want to go that route, we need to realize that Studded Leather is a complete fantasy. I suspect that was a mis-reading of brigandine from tomb effigies, which has studs, but the rivets are holding metal plates behind the leather or cavnas.

But studded leather has been around so long that it's pretty much a D&D trope.

Dietrich von Sachsen wrote:

Isonaroc wrote:

You're wearing padding for any of the medium and heavy armours (except for the armoured coat and hide). Even with a breastplate or full plate, they would have rigid leather and padded gambesons underneath. Any number of historical texts will back me up on that.

I'm not disagreeing, but I am saying that there there tends to be more weight involved (outside the armor proper) when you're dealing with chain. *shrugs*

Like what, exactly?

I agree 100%. I'd also like to point out how worthless Hide is, outside of that brief time at level one that a Chain Shirt isn't affordable (and even then, 99% of the time I just go with Studded Leather instead of Hide because at that point the armor check penalty hurts). And it only gets worse once Mythril quality armor becomes available.

I wish it gave like, Ice Resistance 2 or something. And that there were better item qualities for Non-Metal Armors (if anyone knows of an obscure item material that would make Hide Armor worth using, please, enlighten me!)

The nice thing about Hide though is, whilst mostly useless, is also dirt cheap, making it useful for at least a short window. The same can't be said of chainmail; it's too expensive to be the budget option, but not good enough to be worth buying later on.

Another point to remember is that not all armor styles and types are available in all cultures or settings. Eastern armors are call that because of their regional availability in certain geographic areas where the culture makes them the armor du jour.

Some armors with identical game stats but difference in price are because those armor designs are usually not prevalent in the same cultural regions.

Also it is my understanding that chain mail is so expensive because it is massively labor intensive. Mailsmiths I have talked to said it is far quicker and easier to work with metal plates to make plate armor than to make chainmail (even way more so when your doing riveted mail).

In the end for things like this I remind myself that if the stats work in game then overall that is a win to me. Much like Pathfinder is not supposed to be a perfect economic simulator (buying and selling loot) or accurate treatise on ethics or morality (alignment system) neither is it supposed to be a perfect recreation of technology or combat.

It is a game and sometimes you need to turn a blind eye to generally minor things in the name of fun and playability.

My point being if an expert in the field looks hard enough at anything in the game it will break down somewhere. Are those little things important enough to really worry about?

Maille is absolutely a (litany of expletives) to make, but making good quality steel for plate armour required more specialized skills and knowledge, so on that point I'd argue it's a wash.

The point about eastern armours is completely fair, but even without them we're still left with the chainmail vs. breastplate issue.

Ultimately though my argument isn't purely about realism, it's about mechanics. If I chose to purchase chainmail for my character, I'm at a not insignificant disadvantage over the breastplate. While chainmail is cheaper, it's not budget enough to be worth buying (1st level characters almost always by Scale Mail first, and then go straight to breastplate).

I grant you it's a minor point, but I think it would be better if chainmail fulfilled a role that made it a viable option.

As a further example my GM has a degree in animal science and is a horse owner and equid fanatic. You should hear her go on about how stupid and wrong Pathfinder animal stats are and how animals should have more INT than the game gives them etc.

*Laughs* I can appreciate that! Your GM might appreciate "The Last Book on Mounted Combat" by Dire Destiny. Should be on the Paizo store.

The heavier part is pretty straightforward. Traditionally when you wear chainmail you aren't just wearing chainmail, you're wearing padding over you skin and rigid leather to provide additional support and protection.

You're wearing padding for any of the medium and heavy armours (except for the armoured coat and hide). Even with a breastplate or full plate, they would have rigid leather and padded gambesons underneath. Any number of historical texts will back me up on that.

In addition, the entire weight of chain mail rests on your shoulders, making it feel heavier than some heavier armors whose weights are better distributed.

Having worn and fought in the stuff, that's demonstrably false. Chainmail is always worn with a belt specifically to distribute the weight away from your shoulders.

Another point concerning horm lamellar and similiar armors, the fact that they are non-metallic is part of their value, this makes them immune to certain magical effects, and usable by druids. So they have advantages that will makes some characters choose them, in spite of increased cost or slightly reduced performance.

I had failed to consider that (although bizarrely, I did think of that when looking at Stoneplate in heavy armours).

Alright, fair enough. Horn Lamellar gets a pass. Iron being better than steel is still silly though. :)

they recently fixed the eastern armor, in a Errata of the ultimate equipment book I think, or maybe it was a FAQ. they are now priced better for what they do.

Can you provide a link?

There's nothing wrong with reskinning, but the other option is for a DM to talk to players about their ideal armor aesthetically. That way when loot, especially magic loot is dropped, you can give the players what they want. Are you gonna wear that full plate you bought? Or this super cool plus two fortification scale mail??

In my view, a good GM should be doing that anyways. :)

Part of the mental disconnect here is the mashup of historic, or rather technogical, periods. In typical fantasy fashion we have scale armor, full suits of maille, splinted armor and articulated plate side by side. There are reasons that armor types changed and were replaced in history, but we want them all present in our game. Keeping all the options is going to leave some odd realism questions. You either need to accept this or tinker it up (in a home game.)

Fully understood. I'm not arguing that Pathfinder should limit itself technologically when it comes to armours. My point is purely from a mechanical standpoint; so many of the Medium Armours are mechanically worthless. Surely we should have a reason to want to use them in our games, if we're going to even bother making rules for them.

Tinkering with them for my home games is something I plan on doing; but I don't think it's too much to mention my concerns in a broader context. Other people may be thinking the same thing, and if enough people think that a rule doesn't make sense, perhaps it time to change the rule?

Food for thought.

Just FYI, the price on Four-mirror armor got bumped up to 125gp in the errata to UE.

I didn't know that! Thank you. That makes Four Mirror far more sensible.

I was under the impression that breastplate only covers the torso, while chainmail covers the whole body: torso, legs, arms, and head. I could be wrong, though, but if that's so, seems feasible that it would weigh more and encumber more. I have no idea how thick the breastplate would need to be to match its weight, though. If anything, I'd wonder why breastplates give more AC than chainmail does.

Your thinking on this lines up perfectly with mine. If a breastplate covers less, it should be less protective; otherwise, if it's a breastplate but with leg and armour armour (of maille or some other type) it should be heavier and more encumbering.

This is going to sound like a very minor niggle, but it's been something that's bothered me for a while. This came about largely from a one-off game I was doing where the players were playing their Pathfinder alternate selves (think of the old D&D cartoon), and I was purchasing armour for my cavalier character.

Now, for full disclosure, I am an armoured fighter in the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA), and I fight in a maille hauberk. I *adore* chainmail, and think it's great. Whilst SCA combat certainly is divorced in a lot of ways from actual combat, the wearing of armour is one part that is - or can be- very authentic.

I also want to point out that I'm aware of the dangers of trying to apply real-world physics and logic to D&D.

With that said... I think the design of Medium Armours is really wonky.

If we look at Light Armours, most of them are pretty well designed (except for Leaf Armour... I can think of no reason why you'd shell out 500 gp for armour that is functionally identically to Masterwork Studded Leather or Parade Armour, which only costs 175 gp).

At the top end of the light armour, we have Chain Shirts at 100 gp, which is quite a bit more than most other armours, but it's the only one that gives a +4 armour bonus. It's a bit heavier than the others, but only by about 5 lbs, which is reasonable. It's slightly higher armour check penalty also means that some of the less protective but less encumbering light armours remain in play, depending on build and stats. The Armoured Kilt is also a nice option for customizing armours. Personally, I think that the Quilted Cloth should only a 5% Spell Failure, as the 10% makes it worthless to the people most likely to wear it - Arcane Spellcasters - but overall, I think the designers did a good job here. There is a enough variety in Light Armours without making most of the armours here rubbish.

Heavy Armour is also fairly well balanced. The only thing that raises an eyebrow is Field Plate. I like the mechanics, but it's overpriced - 1,350 gp is a heck of a price to pay just to have 1 fewer Armour check penalty over Masterwork Banded Mail, which is 400 gp. (And even more minor niggle... why is Iron Lammellar more protective than Steel Lamellar? Surely Iron is softer and more brittle a material... but I digress). Splint Mail is really the only red-headed stepchild of the lot, but it's designed to be the super cheap heavy armour option, so I give it a pass.

But Medium Armour?

As I've said, I adore maille. I would also point out that maille was THE armour for most of the medieval period, as well as in late antiquity, and it was used almost world-wide. But in Pathfinder, you'd have to be stark raving mad to choose chainmail as your character's armour.

Let's compare chainmail to a breastplate. The breastplate is 50 gp more expensive than the maille, which makes sense - after all, chainmail is demonstrably less protective than a solid steel plate. But why on earth does the breastplate weigh less, have less armour check, and less Arcane Spell Failure? Yes chainmail is supposed to be the "budget" option, but at only 50 gp difference almost every character is going to wait for one measily encounter to scrape up the difference and then buy breastplate. Either breastplates need to be more expensive so it's worth it to buy chainmail ever, or else chainmail needs to be improved.

It keeps even more bonkers when you start factoring in the eastern armours. Why would someone dish out 150 gp for chainmail when you can get the exact same thing in Four-Mirror armour for 45 gp? Yes, it weighs 5 lbs more, but for a 105 gp discount I'd take Four Mirror over chaimail any day. (This gets sillier when you realize that, historically, Four-Mirror armour was worn OVERTOP OF MAILLE.) Steel Lammellar has the same problem - it costs the same as chainmail at 150 gp, but is either identical or better than chainmail. So why would you EVER buy chainmail?

Since I'm on the subject, Horn Lamellar and Scale Mail are completely identical stat wise, but Horn costs twice as much. Finally, Mountain Pattern Armour is beyond useless. It's either equal to or worse than a breastplate in every way, and it's 50 gp more.

Pathfinder is, on the whole, a brilliantly written and overall well-designed game, and commend the people at Paizo for so much. However, I can't help but feel this small area of the game desperately needs a rework of some kind.

Totally way to late to help, but I found that Gordan Lightfoot's "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" works, especially if you pronounce any words ending in -ed with the extra poetic syllable; ie Sustained would be sung as "Sus-tayn-ed" and not "Sus-taynd".

Other options could be "Twa Corbies", repeating every 4th verse, or, if you can master the tune, the icelandic folk song "Krumisvisur" could work.

Dietrich von Sachsen wrote:

My Kingmaker Wiki

We're nearing the end of RRR. I'm planning on using Dudemeister's Hargulka's kingdom very shortly.

nice job! how did you get the PC images? is tat some kind of model with various equip or did you draw them yoursef? I'd love to share the source (if there is any) with my players!

The PC images are made using Heromachine 3 Alpha, which you can find here.

My Kingmaker Wiki

We're nearing the end of RRR. I'm planning on using Dudemeister's Hargulka's kingdom very shortly.

The Viscounty of Greensward.

Originally founded as the Barony of Greensward - a diarchy with a dwarf Paladin and a Human Cavalier as the Barons. When the dwarf was slain buying time for the party to flee from a band of five trolls and the Cavalier was recalled to Restov, the Oracle of Sarenrae ascended the High Seat and the nation was re-founded as a Viscounty.

Greensward was chosen to encourage settlers to come - sort of like how Greenland was named, although in our case it's not a blatant lie.

When I expanded the hex map south into the River Kingdoms, I included some of the sites, including Lostlarn Keep and Drowned Trees. That said, since I effectively doubled the height of the map with my expansion south into the River Kingdoms, these sites are currently far enough away that the PC's have not yet reached them.

Declaring a magical altar is intended to benefit a community and then restricting the altar in such a manner that certain types of communities [a community entirely housed on a large ship, or perhaps a community of travelers (nomadic shepherds for example, or perhaps something more Gypsie style) for examples] is rather silly.

That aside... I can't seem to find the duration of these Altar-worship boons, am I missing it somewhere?

From Inner Sea Gods:

"A worshiper of an altar’s deity may stand, sit, kneel, or lie prostrate within 10 feet of the altar and speak a prayer to gain a temporary blessing from the altar (treat this as speaking a command word to activate a magic item). The effect of this blessing is described in the individual altar entries. Unless otherwise specified, this blessing ends after 24 hours (or earlier, if dispelled or ended by the actions of the worshiper). The altar can provide its blessing only once per creature per day."

(Emphasis Mine).

James Jacobs wrote:

Usuall when we put something like this on a wandering monster list, the expectation is that the GM will breathe a bit more life into the encounter than simply having a silver dragon swoop in and attack. And as folks have pointed out, there is a history of silver dragon stuff in the region that the GM can use as inspiration.

Besides, when something random attacks, it should always be ninjas.

But then, surely it wouldn't be random, by definition? :p

Just to be clear, I wasn't assuming that all of the Random encounters should be combat encounters. I was just wondering how other folks had run the Silver Dragon encounter.

So my players have started heading Eastward after having made contact with Maegar Varn and set up an embassy there. As they've been running around exploring things, I noticed that at the very bottom of the Nomen Heights Random Ecounters chart (on page 79) there is this:

1 Silver Dragon (CR 14, Bestiary 110).

What the...

Maybe it's just me, but the idea of of a silver dragon being a "random" encounter seems really, really odd to me. Not only should a dragon of that power have a name and a lair nearby, but given that there's a certain unspoken assumption that your players are good aligned, and are not likely to just attack a Silver Dragon. Even if they are a bunch of evil bastards, the silver dragon isn't likely to know that and isn't likely to attack. (In fact, it isn't even likely to land...)

Anyone have any thoughts on how to run this encounter?

Dietrich von Sachsen wrote:

If you wish, nogoodscallywag, I would be happy to post the system I used.

Please do.

TAXATION MODIFIERS* (affects all income sources except events):

INCOME (Cities and Checks):
Base Value of “main” city (max 2,000 gp)
½ of Base of “secondary” city (max 1,000 gp)
¼ of Base Value of other cities (max 250 gp)
50 gp if Build Point gained from Stability
25 gp per 5 Build Points gained from Economy (ruler gains 25 gp per Build Point gained from Economy)*
-10 gp per point of Unrest at start of Event Phase
5 gp per Minor Item Slot
10 gp per Medium Item Slot
15 gp per Major Item Slot
50 gp per Mansion
100 gp per Noble Villa
100 gp per Castle
*Under my system, the players could grant estates within their realm to NPC nobles, giving them the incomes from those hexes/cites/improvements. The Ruler always got a better bonus to income from Economy than did the nobles.

INCOME (Resources):
Gold Mine: 250 gp (500 gp with Mine)
Sootscale Silver Mine: 100 gp (200 gp with Mine; x2 if Kobolds are evicted)
Flooded Silver Mine: 200 gp (400 gp with Mine; only if drained for either)
Ironstone Gully Iron Mine: 100 gp (200 gp with Mine)
Whispering Valley Gemstone Mine: 300 gp (600 with Mine or Quarry)
Coachwood Grove: 75 gp (150 gp with Sawmill; x2 if Melianse if evicted)
Lake Silverstep: 50 gp with Fishery
Cloudberry Patch: 25 gp (50 gp with Farm)
Other Mines: 50 gp
Other Quarries: 25 gp
Other Sawmills: 10 gp
Other Fisheries: 5 gp
Useful Plants: 5 gp (10 gp with Farm)
Other Farms: 5 gp
Roads: 5 gp/4 roads; 1/5th the value of a Trade Route if Trade Route that does not involve a city in your domain
Highways: 25 gp if a highway connects a settlement to a settlement in your domain; otherwise counts as road.
Rivers or Canals: 5 gp/4 rivers; Rivers with a waterfall do not count
10 per Watchtower
25 per Fort

INCOME (Events):
Bandit Activity: -25 gp x Build Points lost
Boomtown: 10 gp x Bonus to Economy
Crop Failure: 50% or 0% income from Farms affected
Economic Boom: 50 gp x Build Points gained
Food Shortage: -25 gp x Increase in Consumption points
Food Surplus: Double Farm or Fishery Income (DM’s choice)
New Subjects: 15 gp x Build Points Gained
Outstanding Success: 100 gp
Remarkable Treasure: Triple the Value of the Item Slot
Slavers: -100 gp
Smugglers: -100 gp per check failed
Vandals: 10 gp x 1d6

INCOME (Trade):
Trade Route Resounding Success: 100 x BP earned back
Trade Route Established: 25 x BP earned back
Trade Route Failed: 10 x BP earned back
Trade Route Total Loss: -200 x (Every 5 BP invested)
Food Trade Route: 25 gp
Goods Trade Route: 50 gp
Luxuries Trade Route: 100 gp
Raw Materials Trade Route: 30 gp

MONTHLY EXPENDITURES:
Royal Domain:
Government Salaries: 75 gp/month for each member of Government
Maid Salaries: 6 gp/month per maid
Cook Salaries: 15 gp/month per cook
Stablehand Salaries: 10 gp/month per Stablehand
Soldier Salaries: 30 gp/month per Soldier
Household Knight Salary: 50 gp/month per Knight
Upkeep (food, candles, etc.): 150-350 gp/month depending on the size of your castle; DM fiat.
Horse Upkeep: 10 gp per horse; Ponies and smaller mounts cost 7 gp, more exotic mounts cost more depending on mount.
Major Domo/Steward salary: 50 gp/month
Chief Herald salary: 50 gp/month
Master Builder salary: 50 gp/month
Master of Dispatch: 30 gp/month
Bird Feed and Raven care: 12 gp/month for six Ravens
Master Smith: 120 gp/month
Guard Captain: 120 gp/month
Royal Chirugeon: 30 gp/month
Chronicler: 150 gp/month
Embassy Upkeep: 100 gp/month per Embassy (requires Embassy)
Wine and Beer Cellar: 100 gp/month (requires Brewery)
Good Food: 50 gp/month (Requires Inn, Pier, or Tavern, and either a Granary or 5 Farms)
Excellent Food: 100 gp/month (Requires either two of either Inn, Pier or Tavern OR Market or Stockyard; AND either a Granary and 5 Farms, OR 10 Farms)
Amazing Food: 200 gp/month (Requires two of either Inn, Pier or Tavern AND Market or Stockyard AND Granary and 10 Farms)
Hosting a Modest Feast: 100 gp per 20 guests
Hosting a Grand Feast: 400 gp per 20 guests (requires Brewery)
Hosting an Extravagant Feast: 800 gp per 20 guests (requires Brewery and Granary)

UPGRADES:
Construct new Buildings: see Ultimate Campaign
Upgrade Furnishings: 300 gp (+5 to income check of the room)
Stone Wall for Inner Bailey: 3,500 gp (Requires Quarry)*
Improved Towers for Inner Bailey: 2,500 gp (Requires Quarry and Stone Wall)*
Stone Wall for Outer Bailey: 10,000 gp (Requires Quarry)*
Improved Towers for Outer Bailey: 8,000 gp (Requires Quarry and Stone Wall)*
Siege Engines: Varies (cannons and the like require Alchemist, Exotic Artisan, and Smithy)*
Gatehouse Iron Door: 500 gp
Gatehouse Wooden Portcullis: 500 gp
Gatehouse Iron Portcullis: 1,000 gp

*The Castle began with a wooden palisade wall, maintaining the wall it had when the Stag Lord lived there.

I had a system by which the party had what was called the King's Purse (or Viscountess' Purse, as our situation might be). They were given a gp income based on various factors, but also had to pay wages not only for their government officials, but also their servants, personal soldiers, castle upkeep, etc. I had the government officials be paid about 75 gp per month. This also meant that the PC's could assign lands within their kingdom as fiefs for nobility; they would still keep the BP and Kingdom bonuses, but the nobles would gain the Income from those hexes and/or cities.

Like Redcelt suggested, make sure they have a Major Domo/Chamberlain/Steward for their household. In my case, we had a very elderly but spry half-elf who's parents were killed in the Galt Red Revolution, and who had served nobles in Ustalav and Brevoy. They also had a Master Builder and a Chief Herald on payroll as well.

If you wish, nogoodscallywag, I would be happy to post the system I used.

Actually the cleric has a problem with the church. His character name is Aramis Vol as in mark of death and blood of Vol. the church council against the wishes of the Keeper sent him rejects of the church to test him to see if he could turn them around and thus prove himself. The player is something of a drama queen and flipped out even though I told him exactly why they were sent. He was like how dare they not intrinsically trust me even though my name is Vol. so having the church step in will be problematic at best.

This is increasingly sounding like a Player problem (or, more to the point, a problem player). Inter-party fighting could be fun if people are mature about it. This doesn't strike me as such.

(Just as an aside, if they really are intent on overthrowing the ruler... why the heck are they wasting time raising armies? Just hire a couple of assassins - it's way cheaper and would get the job done without nearly as much bloodshed, especially if they can keep their involvement hidden...)

Honestly though, given how big the Stolen Lands are, I'd recommend to the Paladin to buy off the Cleric with some BP to start his own vassal kingdom somewhere else. He can call the shots there; meanwhile, the Paladin's kingdom will always have the head start. But I fully agree with Redcelt - outside forces must intervene. The further down the road of civil war they go, the more forcefully outside forces will act. Consider what would happen if King Surtova offered to "mediate" the warring factions, much as King Edward I of England did when the Scots were leaderless and fighting over the throne? Could be interesting.

FLite wrote:

Not on a boat. Not on a goat. Not on a train. Not on a (mobile) demiplane.

Not in a wagon, not on a dragon, not even a tiny one on your flagon.

:D Thank you for that. I think you two win the Excellence in Intertubes award...

In my Kingmaker game, the party has a number of side businesses they run when they're not ruling or adventuring.

The (now deceased) human Rogue built and ran a bar called "The Lord's Den". The manager he hired - a Tiefling woman - is now a PC in her own right, having taken over as Spymaster.

The half-elf Oracle of Life, who is also the Kingdom's ruler, runs a charitable hospital dedicated to Sarenrae, where she spends time treating people with illnesses and injuries.

The human Storm Druid runs... an engineering firm... building public works and buildings in an environmentally sustainable way. While many people have commented "worst druid ever", his real goal - to build an airship and travel the center of the Eye of Abendigo - is well served by this business.

The half-elf Sorcerer runs a magic shop, along with her two "apprentices" (who mainly use her library, rather than learning directly from her), complete with an alchemy lab, an observatory, and a greenhouse. She uses it to help fund her research into both the ancient Cyclops Empire of Casmaron and into dragons - one of which she has a very personal grudge against.

A couple of the former party members were members of the Restov City Watch; one retired to accept the post of Night Watch Commander, allowing him to be nearer to his 9-year-old son, the other now works as the party's Ambassador to Varnhold.

I don't think that there are Scrying spells that detect level, are there?

There is a 3rd-party spell called Foe's Measure that allows you to do that (assuming, of course, you allow 3rd-Party).

However, as you'll note, this spell can be fooled by a disguise, so as long as he puts some effort into looking like an apprentice he can probably fool this spell.

Other things to do is use the Magic Aura spell to disguise your more powerful magic items from Detect Magic.

Could you put one on a ship?

That's also a good point. I guess the question is how big of a something does the altar need to be bolted to before it counts as stationary, even if the object it's bolted to isn't?

I think you know the answer before asking.

I'll agree the wagon is a stretch, but Splendor raises a good point. Is an altar on a ship considered stationary?

So I recently discovered the Magic Altars from Inner Sea Gods this evening from the Archives of Nethys (I don't know how I missed those earlier, I've owned the actual book for like two years at least...) and frankly, I think it's a really cool concept, and one my Oracle of Life, a devotee of Sarenrae in my Kingmaker game, will enjoy.

However, something got me thinking: how neat would it be to have said Altar of Sarenrae, instead of hiding in a church, be mounted on the back of a wagon, similar to the True Cross the crusaders had a the Battle of Hattin in 1187 CE, or the Caroccio Standards of Venice and Milan?

However, this little bit came up from Inner Sea Gods:

"An altar is always fixed in place; it cannot be moved without losing its magical abilities. Most altars are secured to the floor, and a successful DC 25 Strength check is required to uproot or move them (or a higher DC, depending on their size and weight)."

I know this may be munchkin-ing quite a lot, but does the altar count as moving if it's secured to a wagon?

This seems pretty cut and dried, despite the one and a half pages of moderately-civil discourse.

Armor Training is a four-part class feature, just as Weapon Training is. Fighter (dragoon) in particular gives up Armor Training 2-4 for other class features. Unless they were to pick up levels in, say, Magus (myrmidarch), Armor Training 2-4 does not exist for them. Sash of the War Champion would have zero effect on them, because they do not gain Armor Training levels higher than 1. It does not suddenly give them back the ability to advance the Armor Training that they gave up for their new archetype features.

(As a side note, anyone noticed the OP has only posted once in this thread?)

Blimey, I go away for a couple of weeks and this brews up...

Advanced Class Guide Archetype text wrote:

If an archetype replaces a class feature that's part of a series of improvements or additions to the base ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger's favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue's +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, her sneak attack doesn't jump from +1d6 to +3d6 at 5th level—it improves to +2d6 just as if she finally gained the increase for 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level in which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.

If an archetype replaces a class feature that has a series of improvements, but it does not list one individual improvement, that class feature replaces the entire class feature and all of its improvements. For example, if a class feature says that it replaces trap sense without mentioning a specific bonus, it replaces all of trap sense.

Thank you, TriOmegaZero. I think you've answered the question to my satisfaction.

In regards to the Sash, as far as I can tell, if gaining level 7 in Dragoon wouldn't give you the full speed in Heavy Armour, I cannot see why the Sash would. Even if RAW it would, the Dev's clearly seem to be treating Armour Training as 4 separate abilities (Armour Training 1, Armour Training 2, etc.)

As a GM ruling, I would probably allow the Sash either to up the abilities that replaced Armour Training and Bravery, or else create a slew of similiar Sashes for the various Archetypes.

One of my players is playing a Fighter with the Dragoon archetype. Dragoons get Armour Training 1 at Third Level, but do not get Armour Training 2, 3 or 4.

The wording of Armour Training says:

Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.

In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor. (Emphasis mine).

7th level is when a Fighter gains Armour Training 2.

My question is this: Is this 7th level ability tied to having Armour Training 2, or is it just cogent on having Armour Training and being 7th level? Can a 7th Level Dragoon move at full speed in Heavy Armour?

My question really is...how much stats do you really need?

Well I don't think we need to go quite as far as mythic... but a Green Hag Lich Cleric of Gyronna 15 should be pretty badass.

I think I've got enough information to do this. Thanks all!

Seeing as this topic has been moved I'll answer.

Subtract 10 from there ability score and round down any odd number to an even one.

Gotchya. So you assume that all of the base ability scores were 10 or 11?

Also, what about the ability score increases from Hit Dice?

Whoops! You're quite right. I simply saw Rules Questions and Gameplay...

Hello Everyone!

So I'm trying to create a unique monster for my Kingmaker game -specifically Wilendithas the Eternal Hag, the Green Hag Lich Cleric of Gyronna described in Shadows of Gallowspire.

I'd like to give her more powerful stats as a baseline, rather than just taking a bog-standard Green Hag and applying templates and class levels. Is there a way to figure out a monsters racial ability scores?

Also, does the Caster Level of spell-like abilities improve with Class levels, or is it just the racial hit dice?

A thought concerning Shaken: since Dirty Trick maneuvers can be "cured" by applying a Move Action to negate the effects. Most of the above examples don't have some sort of logical way of negating them - and thus seem more like the use of intimidate.

I'm thinking it might be better to physically hurl something off-putting, like a vial of creepy-crawlies; or, if you have a torch in hand, a flask of lamp oil. The attack doesn't really do anything, but the knowledge that this COULD harm the target gives them Shaken, while still allows them a way to remove the penalty (by sweeping off the substance)

Similarly, if you were fighting a Fey opponent, a bag of iron filings could work to make them shaken.

I almost recommended Fields of Blood but it has a couple issues.

1) I found the unit building/maintaining a bit on the complex side. Not that it was TOO complex, just as a subsystem tacked on to the roleplaying game it required a bit much effort.
2) The unit building was connected to the kingdom rules in Fields of Blood that are completely different from the Kingmaker/Pathfinder rules. Now I really like the kingdom rules from FoB, but if you're already using Kingmaker rules the conversion would be extensive.

Other than the unit construction, the mass combat rules were solid. I also like how their system zooms in from a 12 mile hex to move armies, to a 4 mile hex to jockey for position on the battlefield and then down to a battlefield map where you move and combat units. Interesting idea.

Personally, I always preferred Kingmaker for the the Kingdom building, but really enjoyed FoB for the Mass Combat. The trick would be combining the two in a way that made sense...

Just in case there's someone out there bemoaning that they want a flag, but

don't have an artistic bone in their body...try: -
http://inkwellideas.com/coat_of_arms/
It's what I used to create the flag for my player's kingdom after none of
them showed much interest...

Exactly the program I used. :) Good on ya for pointing it out though.

http://stolenlandscampaign.wikispaces.com/Kingdom+Heraldry+Page

This is the flag we came up with. The green and blue was chosen to represent the fertility of the new land; The suns represent the Oracle of Life, Tesfai, who worships Sarenrae, and the anvil and hammer in honour of Torag, the most popular deity in the party at the time.

The wyvern is in memory of when the cavalier, at 3rd level, one-shotted a wyvern. Mounted Lance Charge + Spirited Charge + Crit = the first and only time I've had to roll a Death by Massive Damage save.

Mathius wrote:

I am looking at fire as she bears and that seams a better resource then stormwrack.

I think that Fire as She Bears is better for ships and ship combat, but Stormwrack really shines in its first chapter. The sections on Water Hazards (currents, oceanic diseases), Marine Terrain (coral reefs, ship decks with their pitching and rolling movement and washes of green water over the deck), and Voyages (excellent random weather/wind direction and strength/rain charts, navigation rules) are all very useful.

From Chapter 3, I'm thinking about incorporating the Legendary Captain prestige class (with some modifications - as written it pushes Leadership into the stratosphere), and borrowing some elements from the Scarlet Corsair to spice up Paizo's Shackles Pirate.

In Chapter 4, Knowledge (Naval Architecture/Engineering) is a nice addition, and the navigation rules from Chapter 1 pick up again under Knowledge (Geography). Some of the feats in Chapter 4 strike me as over-powered, but I think some of them would fit in nicely with the feats from Fire As She Bears. In particular, Great Captain (use Aid Another to aid multiple sailors performing a given action), Steam Magic (converts fire spells into more reliable steam spells underwater) and Old Salt (bonuses on some typical sailor skills and weather prediction) are potentially very useful.

Back on the topic of ships, the variety of types in Stormwrack is nice, but you could simulate any of them pretty easily in FASB.

My biggest complaint with FaSB is that it really isn't useful for "small" ships, like Pinnaces, Coracles, or Barques and the like. It's definately a system designed for massive ships of the line and such.

So I've been looking into starting a seafaring game (not exactly S&Sh, but something like it) for a little while now, but one thing that kind of bothers me is how limited ship variety is. Sure, you can buy modifications, but that really doesn't cover the broad range of ships that I'm sure are sailing about in Golarion.

One thing I always liked about the old 3.5e Stormwrack book was the decent variety of ships you could get. Not just the default "sailing ship", but cogs, pinnaces, drommands, and the like. Especially at low levels, having the PC's commanding a Pinnace means they could command the thing all by themselves and not need more than a couple of crew,

Does anyone have any pointers about how to convert these ships into Pathfinder rules? In particular, determining Base Save, hp, total squares of sail and rigging, etc.

Since we're on the subject, I do have a question about hoof attacks. Do Horse animal companions have the Docile SQ?

For a normal horse, it's hooves are treated as secondary attacks (and thus -5 to attack) until it's combat trained, at which point they count as primary attacks. But you also have a bite attack. Does this remain a primary attack as well? And if I attack with my horse's bite and both hooves at once, do I suffer any penalties?

My understanding is that each settlement district increased Consumption by 1, as I didn't see anything to the contrary.

Basically assume that if rules from Kingmaker were not explicitly changed by Ultimate Campaign, keep them.