Shifter as some kind of Druid archetype is.... kind of what it always was, thematically.
If 1E had been less.... granular in its rules, I would have simply presented it as a reskin of the Fighter or Barbarian.
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As I weighed in on elsewhere-
And with divine politics in turmoil, I would say just about any kind of shake-up is possible- in Avistan and beyond.
I'd like a female hobgoblin for the commander. Maybe one with an injury or something that kept her from frontline duty. For the Guardian... honestly not a class I have all that much interest in, feels like something that should just be an alternate Fighter chassis. So I'd want something weird as hell to put a little sizzle on it.
I think "Apocalypse Rider" might be an option that gives you a superkewl mount... because with alignment going out the window, getting to be a badass hell-riding Ghost Rider type doesn't inherently require you to do awful stuff...
Are there even any actual wars going on in the setting at all at this point? Everyone sharing a border with the Gravelands has at least a low-intensity conflict going on. Only the presence of nastier neighbors keeps Nirmathas and Molthune in cold, rather than hot war. Linnorm Kings vs. Irrisen is a constant low-grade conflict. The former Worldwound is a long way from safe, and anyone bordering it has a similar problem to the Gravelands. Nex and Geb know no real peace. Belkzen is nobody's idea of a good neighbor. Kyonin has an ongoing conflict with Treerazer in Tanglebriar. The Shackles have exactly two kinds of foreign relations- People who pay them protection money and people who don't. And then you have the "could break out any day now" conflicts- Vidiran and the Shackles just recently won a naval war with Cheliax, and Ravounel just calved off. Safe to say Abrogail is going to look for a way to flex Chelish muscle at the first opportunity. Brevoy is always a half-step from open civil war. Isger is a weak, tottering basket case propped up by Cheliax. Just about anyone sharing its border could get to feeling ambitious, especially if they see Cheliax as on the back foot. And those are just the obvious rumblings. It's equally possible that recent efforts to normalize, say, Taldan/Qadiri relations could break down, or New Thassilon could have a civil war, or Razmiran could launch a holy crusade into the River Kingdoms...
Huh? Which fallen angel though? Tabris This one- https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Tabris
Apocalypse Rider is a cool as hell name which, if NOT linked to the four Daemon heavies, is wide open to interpretation. Eternal Legend is even less generous with clues as to what, exactly, it's about. But I'm going to do something a bit wingnut (like how I kept putting my chips on Calistria during the "which Core deity dies?" dead pool despite the fact that I didn't actually see her as the most likely) and posit that maybe they're going to be tied to the godsrain- specifically, into which sort of deity's croaking empowers you. Not because I actually think they'll go in a way that limited, but because without more to go on, it's a place to start.
The creepier, the better for me. Bonus points if they don't look especially creepy on first glance, but are utterly awful, like Lurkers in Light, Rusalkas, or Kishis.
Less rocket tag is something I more than trust Paizo to be able to pull off.
Been a Paizo loyalist since I first spotted Burnt Offerings on the shelves of my FLGS back in 2007. There have been ups and downs of various sorts since then, but I can truthfully say that my baseline appreciation for the work put in and the way they engage with the playerbase has never been seriously shaken.
Doube-post for Great Justice: I really want to think that's Yivali on Arazni's finger, and I think a deity looking after those who are unwillingly undead might actually get some care and consideration from Pharasma and her followers.
Just sayin'... "1d6 investigators are swept up into his flabby claws and perish" are rules mechanics. Just so whatever we get is more repeatable in polite company than Cain's sheet...
Note that Gorum's death is something that happens on-screen and is witnessed by PCs... but I doubt we'll get any sorts of mechanics for any of it. Much like Cain's jokey sheet in OWoD, true dragons in L5R, and Cthulhu's "1d6 Investigators per turn" bits in CoC, I would say that deities are going to remain stat-free, their victories and defeats matters of narrative. We know the Orc pantheon is going to get whomped on, and we know a couple of other inbound deific demises, but none of it sounds like dice are going to be rolled to see how it goes.
Plenty of magical swords over the history of fantasy literature have reshaped themselves, and if there's an outright sword-deity, I'd be willing to bet it can embody all sorts of sharp and pointies.
Personally I'm interested to see what happens to Gorum's armor...it's one of the more iconic things about him and it seems like something along those lines could be a neat artifact. I figure it'll end up sharded. Bits and pieces falling here and there...
First Blade seems like a pretty likely candidate. Then again, it'd be interesting to see what happens when a herald's god dies but they're still around. Her name's Iomedae ;)
All of this is hammering home that we need to get Tsukiyo more press :P
Huh. For some reason I had thought Nocticula was evil. Regardless, her lust component and backstory aren't very appealing to me. I'm hoping that Aleph has more of a Nyx vibe. She shed lust as a primary concern when she shed her demonic ties. Artists, outcasts, and the glories of midnight are her focus as a deity. The Redeemer Queen is a very different person now.
I must say, Szuriel looks SMASHING.
I mean, gods have perished in spectacular fashion before, so, say, an exemplar empowered by Acavna running around right after Earthfall makes perfect sense...
I'm not entirely sure Yog-Sothoth can die. Time needs to pass for something to end, and YS doesn't truck with any of that temporality nonsense. I don't see any of the HPL crew taking lasting harm in this, whether past, present, and future are one in them or not...
Gorum's sword had not cleared leather
I'm not sure the Ray is going to be changing in a happy way. But we'll see how this war shakes out. As a fan of Black Butterfly, Ashava, Moloch, the Queens of Night, Tolc, Sun Wukong, Lao Shu Po, Tsukiyo, and Pulura, I'm a long way from reassured simply because Gorum's the core deity to get it in the neck. :P I think the bad news is still in the mail, and that includes the tweaks to the various pantheons. But at least my boy Yog-Sothoth is probably safe...
Gorum doesn't have to be much of a good guy to still not be nasty enough for beings thriving on the worst aspects of war (which is, for the record, a pretty godawful business no matter how you slice it).
I wonder if we weren't limited to just 20. How would people define the pantheons of the gods. In general, the cultural zones of the Inner Sea seem more henotheistic than genuinely polytheistic, and the "pantheon" is therefore a bit shaky. Cheliax and Nidal are both very strongly in the pockets of one primary state deity, and the Padishah Empire of Kelesh likewise pays primary devotion to a singular divinity, even though the existence and relative merits of other gods are acknowledged there. More broadly, you have deities who associate into mini-pantheons out of affection (the Prismatic Ray), you have deities associated by blood ties who therefore form a sort of family concern (Shelyn and Zonny-boy, or the dwarven deities), you have what are pretty clearly mortal-orchestrated sub-pantheons like the Godclaw or the Cosmic Caravan, but Inner Sea theology is pretty fast and loose.
What are you excommunicating her for?! She's RIGHT! :P Excommunicating? No, no, nothing so forgiving :P (Jokes aside, edition wars are dumb, but I must say, 4E was remarkably light on anything I consider salvageable)
"Hey, 4e Actually Had Some Good Ideas" :p Your heresy has been noted ;)
I think Szuriel cheap-shots him in some fashion. It'd fit. The Rider of War examining the Godsrain prophecies and deciding that if killing the God of War unleashes war, well... party on!
The Dragon-Eagle is going to die protecting people from a shard of REDACTED in the Worldwound only to be attacked by the Rider of War taking a cheap shot. REDACTEDs will also be falling over the world in addition to Gorum's blood.What is a dragon-eagle? Sturovenen
A good death for a good deity. Pour one out.
I am fine with Gorum. Of the gods, he is one i never quite cared for. Though I wonder what will replace him for places that did worship him? Maybe more regional war gods? Good guys still have Torag and Iomedae to lean on. Maybe (ugh) Cayden for the chaotic types. Evil sorts have Rovagug, and maybe Zonny-boy. People unconcerned with the ethical components of warfare who just love a good fight can... I dunno. The wrong sorts of (ugh) Caydenites, I suppose. Or for purist "mastering the art of war" types, I guess there's (yawn) Irori. And then there are non-core options who may or may not make it through all of this.... Milani for heroic revolutionaries, Moloch for lawful orderly "stomp your face in and commit atrocities" types, Szuriel for revel in pointless conflict.
YES IT'S NOT SHELYN!!! Note that with Szuriel evidently involved in the plotline, Gorum becomes a solid choice... because the Rider of War might want a bit more influence over her namesake.
YES IT'S NOT SHELYN!!! I stopped worrying about her when Zonny-boy was marked safe.
The real burning question. So long, Gorum. I consider it kind of a "meh" choice, but hey, for quite a few people he was kind of a "meh" deity, so that's that :P
Welp, so long Gorum. Write if you find work!
Multiple gods are going to die?? It has always been in the cards. And as a fan of deities from beyond the Inner Sea, Empyreal Lords, and Archdevils, yes, I am just a wee bit anxious.
Why do you like Gorum? What is there to like about him? A certain refreshing simplicty, thematic purity, and... in many ways he's like Irori, if Irori had more focus than just generally "being better" and if his followers got out there and mixed things up. Gorum is a fine deity for a warrior dedicated to mastering his craft. Or a sound patron for people for whopm every day is a struggle. Erastil may guide your hand on the hunt, and Torag may be fine to call upon as you forge weapons, but Gorum is there for you when the roving psychos from the next hill over come calling. I don't consider him the best and most wonderful deity in the setting, but he offers plenty, particularly for certain character types for whom the other options on offer have no appeal.
I'm hoping for Abadar (goodbye capitalist god) Hello Asmodeus (a contract is a contract is a contract!), Norgorber (secrets and theft run best in economies), Torag (craftsmen don't work for free and systems need to be in place to better pay them)... Iomedae(goodbye evangelist crusaders) Hello Torag (something about recently softening on some deeply nasty edcits and anathema?), Sarenrae (You don't get to be chief deity of a massive empire without a few evangelist crusaders screaming your name), Erastil (defense of one's narrow folk community leaves ample scope for bad behavior)... Gorum (goodbye deity of murderhobos). Hello Cayden ("Hah ha I got hammered and fought them all!), Calistria ("They looked at me funny, I need revenge"), Zon-Kuthon ("let's make them scream!")... Like, my (crow)man... problem players are just gonna move on to whatever's available.
What are you hoping to see on the stream? Fairly lazy answer, but: That Paizo special sauce/sizzle (a combination of care, creativity, and fun) that's kept me a loyal customer since "Burnt Offerings" grabbed me by the eyeballs in 2007. I'd also like some word on just how much of a bloodbath this is or is not going to be for non-Core deities. A 5% fatality rate in the Core 20, with other changes possible to deities who will remain makes me, as a fan of the "other guys," very nervous about select personal favorites. (I have a thing for Empyreal Lords, Archdevils, and deities from beyond the Inner Sea) I wanna see what sort of cool setting books we might get related to this shake-up. When the Core deity who gets it in the neck is announced, I'd kind of like to hear the reasoning for the specific choice, even if it's something that can be summed up in one sentence, like, "Aroden was a jerk." What are you excited for? Any teases about Arazni's increased prominence and how it comes about. Any hints of more Yivali writings.
It's not a bet I'd put any money on, but putting my dead pool pick on Calistria. Largely a combination of process of elimination and avoiding safer/more obvious choices. Also pointedly selecting a deity I actually like, as opposed to engaging in wishful thinking about removing anyone in particular... Going down the line: Lamashtu is both a superb patron of villainy and one of the first Golarion deities we ever got to unpack. She has some neat divine politics to juggle, and her job as "Why humans and animals get along so poorly" is also kind of relevant. I just don't see how her demise is better for story or setting than keeping her around. Iomedae? I just feel like cheating us out of watching her deal with Arazni's "promotion" is a lazy move. If anyone but Arazni were stepping up, I'd call her a natural choice for heroic and/or tragic death. Plus Seelah the Paladin is an iconic with a deep well of art assets and a major role as product identity. Torag? Eh. Just no sizzle there. Shelyn? Too much going on with her brother who's going to be around. Not seeing it. Sarenrae? Like Iomedae, a natural choice for heroism and/or tragedy, but it just feels... off? Some of it's also that there's a lot of art assets of Kyra with her symbol. See Seelah, under Iomedae. Norgorber? To kill a god so big on secrecy you'd need to unpack his secrets a bit. I don't see that happening. And then there's the whole, "are you sure he's dead?" angle. Pass. Gorum? There's a strong case to be made for his death, but... cliches are cliches for a reason. People may (justly) argue that he doesn't enrich the setting as much as some of the others, but an essentially amoral god of war has a part to play. People claim that he's the god of choice for murderhobo problem players, but... all of the other obvious patrons of warriors (Torag, Iomedae, Szuriel, Moloch,etc.) take strong ethical positions that lack one thing Gorum's indifference brings to the table: full-throated support of both sides of ANY fight that comes up. Abadar gets a bum rap. He, like Gorum, makes a superb patron of both heroes and villains, and he runs like a thread across the entire setting in a way only rivaled by the already-safe Desna and Rovagug. Gozreh? Putting a few other things aside, Gozreh is sort of the representative of Sourhern Garund in the core 20. A nature deity who isn't just a Green Man analogue of one kind or another, and who ties into some of the less "fantasy Europe" regions of the setting. Plus, Gozreh's broadly inhuman nature and portrayal are cool. Like Gorum, not the worst pick, but not mine. Calistria enlivens and enriches the setting, but not in a load-bearing way. The "elf" deity whose most widely-known portrayal is explicitly not how most elves venerate her. The not-always-nice goddess who still seems to broadly gang out with the good guys more than the bad. An odd thematic mix which, while not directly overlapping Arazni's areas of interest, might feel like an odd conceptual crowding of it. A goddess who would be mourned in the fantasy, thereby having gut punch impact, but without feeling crippling. She is in the sweet spot where she would be missed... but could be spared. So she's where I have placed my marker.
Meanwhile, I'm just like... "Okay, once we figure who we lose of the Core 20, when do we start sweating bullets for favored non-Core deities?" 'Cause I've got a few of them I'd miss far more than anyone who's left...
I'm keeping my "probably not one of Team Badguy" marker in place. And my wingnut dead pool bet remains Calistria. Not surprised at all that Rover's gonna stick around. Thanks, Erin, for ten fun fictions!
Man why do people think Martial Art Master Buddha is boring? :D A topic for another thread, but... in short: Because he and his followers never actually do very much. They exist as setting, but their interactions with others which would make them a living part of the setting are incredibly thin on the ground. When Zon-Kuthon gets out to play more often than you do, safe to say you're kind of a divine shut-in :P
It's the most interesting he's ever been! And doing it required him to essentially become the self-absorbed villain of the multiverse... yeesh. Didn't have him figured for a dirt nap (again, collective shrugs seldom seem to be the desired result) but also didn't have him figured for an actual prophecy. This was fun, and finally breaks up what had been a pattern in the poster. How fitting that a Godclaw member should inject a little chaos into an apparent visual pattern....
3.) Apart from the departing core deity and newly entering Arazni, is leaving the core 20 while staying alive an option? I dunno who'd get Hestia'ed in those circumstances. Seems unlikely.
I know how Folca was taken out! We used him as a post-campaign treat for our Wrath of the Righteous playthrough. It wasn't meant to be particularly challenging compared to, say, Deskari of Baphomet, just an excuse to show off and clean up a part of the setting that needed cleaning...
It occurs to me to wonder... are the people of Tian Xia even going to know who the dead god is, or are they going to wake up one day with a colossal divine war raging in the heavens and hells and have no idea who started it? Since their core 20 isn't the Core 20, I think we can safely assume they potentially lose a deity or two from their own geographic pantheon without it having to be one of the baseline 20 from the core rules. After all, southern Garund isn't exactly a major epicenter for each remaining faith either. Iblydos, Casmaron, Vudra, Arcadia... I doubt anyone's getting out of this without a bit of divine mayhem.
See, my marker's on a deity I actually like and who I think enriches the setting, even if she has her issues. Because a collective shrug at a deity's demise is not, to my thinking, the desired reaction here. For example- I have not seen anyone passionately defend the likes of Irori or Gorum or Torag, which means, yes, you might be able to bin one of them with minimal ripples, but is the death of a god something you want to have create minimal ripples?
"Incompetent sh*theel." (a dismissive description of another) "Well, that sure narrows the hell out of your life." (in cases where someone had expressed something they won't do or try) "My deterioration continues apace." (a response to "how are you doing?") "I could complain, but who'd listen?" (ibid) "Living the dream. One of these days I'll wake up, and then I'll be in trouble." (ibid) "If you ever hit/shoot/stab me with that and I find out about it, I'm going to be very annoyed." (a not-at-all-veiled critique of the physical strength or material potency of a weapon or individual)
- The Iroran Sacred Order of Archivists defend written history from revisionists and propagandists (including those glory-seeking Pathfinders!), and were a lynchpin of Hell's Rebels. And are dead by the time we "meet" them. - His nephew Gruhastha wrote Irori's biography so hard that he then became a book that also became maybe the most extremely ripped god. Deities are hardly what is called for. - His faithful can become 900-pound celestial tigers who train mortals, and in their spare time hunt powerful creatures so they can play tag with them. A group of divine servitors (ascended petitioners, really) who hang out only in Iroran temples. Not exactly what I'm getting at here. - An Iroran monk figured out a way to travel to the Ethereal Plane by punching someone in a dream. Sounds more Ryu-in-Street Fighter/pseudo-Shaolin, not really a solution to the issue of their role in society. - Fleshwarps and mutants in the Mana Wastes worship Irori in pursuit of their own self-perfection, however alien the nature or process of that perfection might be to others, or if "perfection" might simply mean an easing of suffering. (Impossible Lands 309) Acceptable! But niche as hell. The largest public arena in the Inner Sea is also Absalom's temple to Irori, even if the Irorans aren't delighted about it. Which feeds into the issue with the faith as presented. Then there's the Exhaustive Path, who decided self-perfection means checking off every mortal sin at least once. Useful villains. Want Irorans who perform civic duties educating people? They run the public schools in Prada Hanam. So... one case of what I'm asking for. Gotta say, the overwhelming majority of your examples kind of prove my point. They're reclusive weirdos and/or people who absolutely cannot function in wider society, which means it's a very difficult religion to put a particularly human face on going off of what is there.
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