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Themetricsystem wrote:
Are there even any actual wars going on in the setting at all at this point?
Everyone sharing a border with the Gravelands has at least a low-intensity conflict going on.
Only the presence of nastier neighbors keeps Nirmathas and Molthune in cold, rather than hot war.
Linnorm Kings vs. Irrisen is a constant low-grade conflict.
The former Worldwound is a long way from safe, and anyone bordering it has a similar problem to the Gravelands.
Nex and Geb know no real peace.
Belkzen is nobody's idea of a good neighbor.
Kyonin has an ongoing conflict with Treerazer in Tanglebriar.
The Shackles have exactly two kinds of foreign relations- People who pay them protection money and people who don't.
And then you have the "could break out any day now" conflicts-
Vidiran and the Shackles just recently won a naval war with Cheliax, and Ravounel just calved off. Safe to say Abrogail is going to look for a way to flex Chelish muscle at the first opportunity.
Brevoy is always a half-step from open civil war.
Isger is a weak, tottering basket case propped up by Cheliax. Just about anyone sharing its border could get to feeling ambitious, especially if they see Cheliax as on the back foot.
And those are just the obvious rumblings. It's equally possible that recent efforts to normalize, say, Taldan/Qadiri relations could break down, or New Thassilon could have a civil war, or Razmiran could launch a holy crusade into the River Kingdoms...
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Been a Paizo loyalist since I first spotted Burnt Offerings on the shelves of my FLGS back in 2007.
There have been ups and downs of various sorts since then, but I can truthfully say that my baseline appreciation for the work put in and the way they engage with the playerbase has never been seriously shaken.
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Doube-post for Great Justice: I really want to think that's Yivali on Arazni's finger, and I think a deity looking after those who are unwillingly undead might actually get some care and consideration from Pharasma and her followers.
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Note that Gorum's death is something that happens on-screen and is witnessed by PCs... but I doubt we'll get any sorts of mechanics for any of it.
Much like Cain's jokey sheet in OWoD, true dragons in L5R, and Cthulhu's "1d6 Investigators per turn" bits in CoC, I would say that deities are going to remain stat-free, their victories and defeats matters of narrative.
We know the Orc pantheon is going to get whomped on, and we know a couple of other inbound deific demises, but none of it sounds like dice are going to be rolled to see how it goes.
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Calliope5431 wrote:
Personally I'm interested to see what happens to Gorum's armor...it's one of the more iconic things about him and it seems like something along those lines could be a neat artifact.
I figure it'll end up sharded. Bits and pieces falling here and there...
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Perpdepog wrote:
First Blade seems like a pretty likely candidate. Then again, it'd be interesting to see what happens when a herald's god dies but they're still around.
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Gisher wrote:
Huh. For some reason I had thought Nocticula was evil. Regardless, her lust component and backstory aren't very appealing to me. I'm hoping that Aleph has more of a Nyx vibe.
She shed lust as a primary concern when she shed her demonic ties.
Artists, outcasts, and the glories of midnight are her focus as a deity.
The Redeemer Queen is a very different person now.
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I mean, gods have perished in spectacular fashion before, so, say, an exemplar empowered by Acavna running around right after Earthfall makes perfect sense...
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vyshan wrote:
I wonder if we weren't limited to just 20. How would people define the pantheons of the gods.
In general, the cultural zones of the Inner Sea seem more henotheistic than genuinely polytheistic, and the "pantheon" is therefore a bit shaky.
Cheliax and Nidal are both very strongly in the pockets of one primary state deity, and the Padishah Empire of Kelesh likewise pays primary devotion to a singular divinity, even though the existence and relative merits of other gods are acknowledged there.
More broadly, you have deities who associate into mini-pantheons out of affection (the Prismatic Ray), you have deities associated by blood ties who therefore form a sort of family concern (Shelyn and Zonny-boy, or the dwarven deities), you have what are pretty clearly mortal-orchestrated sub-pantheons like the Godclaw or the Cosmic Caravan, but Inner Sea theology is pretty fast and loose.
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Gisher wrote:
ornathopter wrote:
The Dragon-Eagle is going to die protecting people from a shard of REDACTED in the Worldwound only to be attacked by the Rider of War taking a cheap shot. REDACTEDs will also be falling over the world in addition to Gorum's blood.
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keftiu wrote:
Relistening now to catch one detail I'd missed before: Sturovenen dies preventing a piece of the Godsrain from being used to re-open the Worldwound. He apparently explodes into a rainbow seen across Sarkoris.
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vyshan wrote:
I am fine with Gorum. Of the gods, he is one i never quite cared for. Though I wonder what will replace him for places that did worship him? Maybe more regional war gods?
Good guys still have Torag and Iomedae to lean on. Maybe (ugh) Cayden for the chaotic types.
Evil sorts have Rovagug, and maybe Zonny-boy.
People unconcerned with the ethical components of warfare who just love a good fight can... I dunno. The wrong sorts of (ugh) Caydenites, I suppose.
Or for purist "mastering the art of war" types, I guess there's (yawn) Irori.
And then there are non-core options who may or may not make it through all of this.... Milani for heroic revolutionaries, Moloch for lawful orderly "stomp your face in and commit atrocities" types, Szuriel for revel in pointless conflict.
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Calliope5431 wrote:
Nintendogeek01 wrote:
YES IT'S NOT SHELYN!!!
My hats remain safe.
Gorum is just so...generic.
It does sort of feel sort of like a "not with a bang but a whimper" sort of situation, and I mean that with the utmost respect for people who like Gorum.
He's just NOT that interesting of a choice.
Note that with Szuriel evidently involved in the plotline, Gorum becomes a solid choice... because the Rider of War might want a bit more influence over her namesake.
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Sanityfaerie wrote:
Why do you like Gorum? What is there to like about him?
A certain refreshing simplicty, thematic purity, and... in many ways he's like Irori, if Irori had more focus than just generally "being better" and if his followers got out there and mixed things up.
Gorum is a fine deity for a warrior dedicated to mastering his craft. Or a sound patron for people for whopm every day is a struggle. Erastil may guide your hand on the hunt, and Torag may be fine to call upon as you forge weapons, but Gorum is there for you when the roving psychos from the next hill over come calling.
I don't consider him the best and most wonderful deity in the setting, but he offers plenty, particularly for certain character types for whom the other options on offer have no appeal.
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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
I'm hoping for Abadar (goodbye capitalist god)
Hello Asmodeus (a contract is a contract is a contract!), Norgorber (secrets and theft run best in economies), Torag (craftsmen don't work for free and systems need to be in place to better pay them)...
Quote:
Iomedae(goodbye evangelist crusaders)
Hello Torag (something about recently softening on some deeply nasty edcits and anathema?), Sarenrae (You don't get to be chief deity of a massive empire without a few evangelist crusaders screaming your name), Erastil (defense of one's narrow folk community leaves ample scope for bad behavior)...
Quote:
Gorum (goodbye deity of murderhobos).
Hello Cayden ("Hah ha I got hammered and fought them all!), Calistria ("They looked at me funny, I need revenge"), Zon-Kuthon ("let's make them scream!")...
Like, my (crow)man... problem players are just gonna move on to whatever's available.
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Jonathan Morgantini wrote:
What are you hoping to see on the stream?
Fairly lazy answer, but:
That Paizo special sauce/sizzle (a combination of care, creativity, and fun) that's kept me a loyal customer since "Burnt Offerings" grabbed me by the eyeballs in 2007.
I'd also like some word on just how much of a bloodbath this is or is not going to be for non-Core deities. A 5% fatality rate in the Core 20, with other changes possible to deities who will remain makes me, as a fan of the "other guys," very nervous about select personal favorites.
(I have a thing for Empyreal Lords, Archdevils, and deities from beyond the Inner Sea)
I wanna see what sort of cool setting books we might get related to this shake-up.
When the Core deity who gets it in the neck is announced, I'd kind of like to hear the reasoning for the specific choice, even if it's something that can be summed up in one sentence, like, "Aroden was a jerk."
Quote:
What are you excited for?
Any teases about Arazni's increased prominence and how it comes about.
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CorvusMask wrote:
Man why do people think Martial Art Master Buddha is boring? :D
A topic for another thread, but... in short:
Because he and his followers never actually do very much. They exist as setting, but their interactions with others which would make them a living part of the setting are incredibly thin on the ground.
When Zon-Kuthon gets out to play more often than you do, safe to say you're kind of a divine shut-in :P
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Phillip Gastone wrote:
I know how Folca was taken out!
We used him as a post-campaign treat for our Wrath of the Righteous playthrough.
It wasn't meant to be particularly challenging compared to, say, Deskari of Baphomet, just an excuse to show off and clean up a part of the setting that needed cleaning...
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Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
It occurs to me to wonder... are the people of Tian Xia even going to know who the dead god is, or are they going to wake up one day with a colossal divine war raging in the heavens and hells and have no idea who started it?
Since their core 20 isn't the Core 20, I think we can safely assume they potentially lose a deity or two from their own geographic pantheon without it having to be one of the baseline 20 from the core rules.
After all, southern Garund isn't exactly a major epicenter for each remaining faith either.
Iblydos, Casmaron, Vudra, Arcadia...
I doubt anyone's getting out of this without a bit of divine mayhem.
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"Incompetent sh*theel." (a dismissive description of another)
"Well, that sure narrows the hell out of your life." (in cases where someone had expressed something they won't do or try)
"My deterioration continues apace." (a response to "how are you doing?")
"I could complain, but who'd listen?" (ibid)
"Living the dream. One of these days I'll wake up, and then I'll be in trouble." (ibid)
"If you ever hit/shoot/stab me with that and I find out about it, I'm going to be very annoyed." (a not-at-all-veiled critique of the physical strength or material potency of a weapon or individual)
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Garrett Guillotte wrote:
- The Iroran Sacred Order of Archivists defend written history from revisionists and propagandists (including those glory-seeking Pathfinders!), and were a lynchpin of Hell's Rebels.
And are dead by the time we "meet" them.
Quote:
- His nephew Gruhastha wrote Irori's biography so hard that he then became a book that also became maybe the most extremely ripped god.
Deities are hardly what is called for.
Quote:
- His faithful can become 900-pound celestial tigers who train mortals, and in their spare time hunt powerful creatures so they can play tag with them.
A group of divine servitors (ascended petitioners, really) who hang out only in Iroran temples. Not exactly what I'm getting at here.
Sounds more Ryu-in-Street Fighter/pseudo-Shaolin, not really a solution to the issue of their role in society.
Quote:
- Fleshwarps and mutants in the Mana Wastes worship Irori in pursuit of their own self-perfection, however alien the nature or process of that perfection might be to others, or if "perfection" might simply mean an easing of suffering. (Impossible Lands 309)
Which feeds into the issue with the faith as presented.
Quote:
Then there's the Exhaustive Path, who decided self-perfection means checking off every mortal sin at least once.
Useful villains.
Quote:
Want Irorans who perform civic duties educating people? They run the public schools in Prada Hanam.
So... one case of what I'm asking for.
Gotta say, the overwhelming majority of your examples kind of prove my point. They're reclusive weirdos and/or people who absolutely cannot function in wider society, which means it's a very difficult religion to put a particularly human face on going off of what is there.
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Vee8 wrote:
I was under the impression that dealing with the dark tapestry was more Black Butterfly's job than Desna's.
Given the power disparity between the two, I think it's more that Black Butterfly focused more on the Dark Tapestry, but Desna had the firepower.
Quote:
Kinda sad we don't get a glimpse of Black Butterfly's reaction to Desna's death.
I kinda figured she just... winked out. A shadow with nothing to cast it- given how deities have died in the past by losing symbolic aspects of themselves, I can really see it- Black Butterfly just disappears when Desna dies.
But she was always so quiet and distant that nobody noticed in their grief over the loss of her much shinier, noisier, more outgoing progenitor.
Anyway, with Desna formally marked safe (I didn't think it would be her, but I will admit to relief that it isn't), and Pharasma as the first to be marked safe...
I'M GOOD NOW. Hope it's not Lamashtu.
EDIT: I'm good about the core 20, anyway. I remain on tenterhooks about favored non-Core deities, for whom we don't have set numbers of casualties or even a percentage...
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The problem with being a monk deity devoted to self-improvement is that your followers just do their own thing honing their skills and training up... which means they just kinda... exist in insular enclaves pointedly not really intersecting with the rest of the setting most of the time.
Despite my own personal distaste for proselytizing, I think Irori's faith could seriously do with some more activist clergy, like... training farmers to defend themselves, serving as philosopher-teachers of communities or what have you... 'cause as they generally come off when they show up at all, they just seem kinda... there.
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Limeylongears wrote:
I mucked up the battered fish part of today's fish and chip supper.
Handing back my Brit Card now.
I'm afraid failing to batter your fish properly also disqualifies you from have an Alaskan Card.
My latest culinary atrocit- er, endeavor of note: Lamb burger on a bagel cooked on top of a woodstove in a one-room cabin while my elderly father was monopolizing the propane burners...
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Kobold Catgirl wrote:
I want to say, this whole event has been doing amazing at its intended purpose. I didn't even know half of what I suddenly find myself starting arguments over about the gods. I forgot how compelling some of them are.
Very much this.
It might be a pretty blatant bit of marketing sensationalism, but it's definitely helping bring home how fleshed-out most Pathfinder deities are.
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AceofMoxen wrote:
And only three God-creations, right?
Four. It's how Aroden ascended as well.
So it has, to its credit-
One flash in the pan deity who became very important in Avistan and died right around the time prophecy "broke." Aroden as a deity didn't last as long as the damn Peacock Spirit!
One inheritor of the better aspects of the first guy's mantle. Who had already inherited the mantle of his herald after the first one got horribly murdered.
One schmuck who got blackout hammered and became a god and literally does not recall how it happened.
One sneaky git who lies about literally everything.
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Ohhhhhh BOY do I have some opinions.
Core 20 first, then some favored other deities...
Personal Favorites:
Desna. She's a neat goddess for adventurers (hit the open road, see the world, do nice stuff, dream big) and plays with some fun themes. The fact that she's probably some kind of sweet-natured eldritch abomination dressing up like a pretty elf with moth wings is just the cherry on the sundae
Pharasma. There's something kind of reassuring in her stony silence and impartiality. She's a god whose perspective actually feels suitably Olympian. As a reader of Pratchett, she gives me "Azrael in Reaper Man vibes. While not the first essentially all right deity of death in TTRPGs, she sticks the landing better than most.
I Like Them A Lot:
Abadar. I like that his followers can get up to very good and very bad things without it feeling like a betrayal of their faith. From greedy abusive landlords to lone paladins wandering into frontier towns to clean up the local bandits, Abadar covers a lot of useful space.
Erastil. A stag-headed archery god of community and rural living? Kind of a curmudgeon? I enjoy him. And a ranger deity who emphasizes the people a ranger looks after is just good fun.
Gozreh- A TTRPG nature deity who isn't a Green Man analogue? Sold!
Asmodeus- Man do I hate him. Man isn't that the point?
Zon-Kuthon- ibid, plus some tragedy
Lamashtu- She's fun, and operates in extremely dark and nasty ways while having clergy with some scraps of nuance.
Calistria- Deliberately a bit complicated and dangerous to get close to. I actually wish she wasn't so bolted to being the primary Elf god for so much of the game's history, given that Golarion's elves on the whole make rather poor Calistrians :P
Shelyn- After decades of RPGs making love goddesses who are vain, shallow, and hard to like, one who's about finding the love and beauty in everyone was such a welcome change of pace the shock hasn't worn off yet.
Fine in their role:
Gorum. No one's going to accuse him of being the most exciting or conceptually original, but the cliche he embodies exists for a reason.
Rovagug. Big bad monster god of breaking stuff. Sounds fun.
Nethys. I like a magic deity who not merely doesn't take moral or ethical stances, but apparently can't. It's... pleasing.
Iomedae. More interesting than Gorum, but still essentially a deity with onyl one or two notes in her musical range. Luckily they're good ones.
Sarenrae. As a "big good," she's all right, but I confess, she just doesn't click with me on any deeper level.
I actually don't have strong opinions and sometimes have to forcibly remind myself they exist:
Torag. Moradin. Whatever.
Irori. Lawful Neutral monk self-improvement god who apparently exists and does things and matters a lot in Vudra.
Urgathoa- Oh, right, the death goddess hates undead, guess we'd better tick that box. And give Urgathoa some hedonism so she has more to do than just raise armies of zombies.
I have to remind myself that someone worked hard on creating these deities and not maliciously spit on their creative endeavors every time they come up:
Norgorber. He's a fun one because I actually enjoy the Skinsaw Cult as antagonists, but nothing else about him jives for me. A shadowy deceptive murderous thief-god, and... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....
Cayden Cailean. Years ago, I created a thread for people to tell me what it was they saw in him. Someone called him "the god of bros." That is precisely the problem. Hate him. Hate him, he never shows up in games I have a hand in running, he sucks, I hate him. The god of "hold my beer and watch this" being presented as some kind of amazing hero everyone likes makes me want to claw my eyes out. Literally everything he brings to the table, Desna does better. Or Sun Wukong.
None-Core now...
Non-Core Deities in unreservedly love:
Black Butterfly- Ironically mostly for her edicts and anathema. I like the idea of anonymous acts of good being a requirement for following her.
Tsukiyo- A neurodivegent moon deity who's an absolute good guy. hell yes.
Grandmother Spider- Look, she's just cool, all right?
Nocticula the Redeemer Queen- Less for the story (which, due to the way publishing schedules work, felt kind of rushed) than the end result. I like where she ended up.
Moloch- Sometimes you just need somebody to punch until your hand falls off.
Shyka- Because it's hilarious seeing who Shyka will be next!
Ashava- Kiiiiiiind of an Eilistraee expy in some ways, but you know what, I'm okay with that.
Nhimbaloth- "The Willows" is creepy as hell, and that's basically her whole deal. Yes please.
Mahathallah- She just rings my bell, okay?
Non-Core Deities or Demigods I Honestly Prefer to Core Deities in Similar Roles:
Eiseth- Makes SUCH a great war and vengeance goddess.
Sivanah- I wish she'd mug Norgorber for more of his deception schtick.
Arshea- As a beacon of a positive take on sexuality, Arshea is a delight.
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OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:
* I get confused when folks talk about Tian-Xia gods being part of their own Core 20. Is this a thing?
More or less.
While some deities are equally relevant the world over, and while a priest's abilities aren't geography-based, local culture often gives other deities primacy.
To use Tian Xia as an example, Abadar, Desna, Irori, Lamashtu, Pharasma, and Shelyn are all considered pretty important there, but Shizuru is the solar deity and Sarenrae doesn't get enough market share to be particularly prominent. So if your characters are operating there, you're far more likely to run into priests of Shizuru than Sarenrae. Assassins are more likely to call up Yaezhing than Norgorber. And so forth.
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Going back to some earlier predictions of mine...
I don't think it'll be Rover (or any of the Nasties), but if it is a "team bad guy" deity biting the dust, he's the most likely of the remaining Core- Nordberg sponsors a whole lot of different types of villainy, and Lamashtu is honestly cool and engaging as an adversary in ways Rover fails to be (as in, she can sometimes play at divine politics, whereas everybody hates Rover).
Expanding my predictions...
Team Tepid:
Irori just doesn't do all that much one way or the other. It would certainly be a huge deal in, say, Vudra or Jalmeray, but he's a deity who has been used with a very light hand most of the time. After all this build, having him get picked off would likely be greeted with sighs of bemused relief across a lot of the more invested playerbase, sorry to say.
Abadar fills a useful narrative niche, since (a bit like Helm over in Forgotten Realms) his followers can get up to both wonderful and utterly awful things. He's also kind of load-bearing as "that god whose clerics are always on hand to cast spells for money." Killing him would usher in some chaos and fun, but it feels... not quite as "meh" as Irori, but it's in there.
Gorum- Diet Khorne is a possibility, but I dunno. He brings something to the table from a PC option point of view- the "Crom," a god for warriors to yell about who doesn't really stick his nose in all that much. He might be kind of a generic fantasy war god in a lot of ways, but cliches are cliches for a reason, and he fits anyone who wants to get their Conan on really well.
Gozreh- Well, he's more interesting than Obligatory Tree-Themed Green-Man Knockoff types, and I don't see her dying as being all that much of a fuss. And Goz-masks are cool as hell. Besides, as essentially the only one of the core pantheon to get much love in southern Garund for most of 1E, she'd be a weird one to kill off. I think he's probably safe.
Calistria- Still where I have my death bet marker placed, less because I'm particularly confident than because I think she's a really neat and interesting deity who would genuinely be missed without causing too much real-life depression. Admittedly a bit of a longshot (I think the loss of a Team Good Guy deity is far more likely), but sometimes you gotta bet on a longshot.
Team Good Guy:
With Erastil and Cayden (booooooo) safe, we're down to some hardcore fan favorites and... Torag.
Desna- This is the one that has me worried, because she's easily one of my favorite deities in TTRPG history. I don't think she'll get it in the neck (she's thematically load-bearing to a lot of things about Golarion as a setting and has a lot of neat divine politics she's wrapped up in), but the possibility is there. And can you imagine the story if it's her?
Torag- Frankly... people accuse the likes of Gozreh or Nethys or Gorum of being boring, but Torag takes the cake for me. He's not all that different from, you know. Moradin. But he's also the only "dwarf" deity in the Core 20, and the rest of the Dwarven pantheon remains kinda under-fleshed after all of this time. I put him in the Irori basket... unlikely because it just doesn't seem like it'd hit all that hard.
Iomedae- Honestly, what has her safe-ish in my mind? Having Aroden's prior herald step into her "slot," even with completely different divine concerns, just feels like a lazy cop-out. That said, her death would have a massive impact on the setting. As a Paladin/valor goddess, she's got a narrow but important thematic focus from a TTRPG point of view- and I really want to see how she and Arazni deal with one another as deities of comparable standing. I just think the particular story (with Arazni becoming a core deity) is more interesting with Iomedae alive.
Sarenrae- Of the various good deities, she seems like someone who'd take one for the team. So I don't think she'll get to. As with Iomedae, I just think the story is more interesting if she's around to deal with the fallout. That said, of the good deities, she's one whose demise would have an immediate and stunning impact- not least since she's the patron deity of the iconic cleric! Call it a longshot.
Shelyn- I'm honestly not seeing it, not with Zon-Kuthon still around. Their dynamic is a nice bit of iron-jawed tragedy.
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Phillip Gastone wrote:
How about a deity like Crom from Conan? 'I have given you life, the strength in your arms and the fire in your hearts. Now go away and don't bother me or I'll smack you."
It can be argued that that's kind of the Gorumite vibe
