On analysis of this thread I urge you to join our ranks, brother.
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So Pathfinder Society has finally managed to come to my little home town in Australia, and I have volunteered to help out the Venture Captain here with DMing the first event, the Beginner Bash. Since this is the first event and I have never run a game outside my home before, nor any Pathfinder Society scenarios, I was wondering if anyone had any advice? Mainly best way to prepare for it, and any tips to maximise fun,? Especially with the absolute new comers who are bound to be attending. Thanks.
heck, they had guns in the orient far longer than they did in the west. the chinese had a variation of the repeater rifle by the time the trojan horse was built. What on earth are you talking about? The Trojan War was in somewhere around 1180 BC, the Chinese invented gunpowder a couple of hundred years before the Mongols arrived, around 1044AD. That is 2000 years difference in history? That is invented it, not even invented firearms for it. 'Rifles' as in firearms that create a spin on their projectiles to give range and accuracy, came around in 18th century Europe. Repeaters we are talking mid 19th century. Where on earth did you hear this information?
Wrong on all counts except the Chinese invented it.
I can state a case where any class in the game is broken as all hell at level 10-20, some classes are just more obvious. Do Rogues.
That character is brutal. He can out brawl +3 CR beasts like the Adult Blue dragon or Storm Giant on his own.... that is kind of ridiculous. What are his weaknesses? Low saves, maybe troubles with DR? He seems like a one man campaign crusher. To the OP, having played a summoning and pet focused druid in my last campaign, I would reccomend -against- Master Summoner. Not because it isn't powerful, it is. But because it requires alot of homework, preparation, and clarity. You have to have stats for lots of different creatures ready all the time, and work really hard not to unreasonably slow down combat when your turns come. The main problem with the class isn't the power, it's not annoying your fellow party members by slowing combats to a halt. I put a tonne of effort into streamlining those aspects and still found myself at medium levels eating alot of real world time with my turns.
Strength, all day, everyday. Then Con, for hp and raging brutality and more rage, then, and only then, Dexterity. 18 is a fantastic amount already, if you full attack something and then send 5 attacks during their round on top of that, you won't need a 6th. Something has gone horribly wrong if you do.
The Joker. Are you sure about that?
75 is pretty steep at 1-4, but I won't have enough rage rounds to cycle with anyway at those levels. At the levels I want it with spell sunder and strength surge etc (6 onwards) it becomes trivial for the fantastic ability it provides, especially for the time period compared to potions and wands. Plus I can channel Gary Oldman in my roleplay before entering a dungeon, which is always a huge plus, haha.
So I am making a Barbarian for an up and coming module, and found a particular combo of two things already good for Barbarians, and am wondering if this is as good as it seems. I want to take human for superstition bonuses as well as Heart of the Fields. However, with Allnight it seems to get very strong. With Allnight I am immune to fatigue for 8 hours, more than enough for a day, meaning I can Rage cycle all I want, without investing in Oracle levels, or waiting until level 17. At the end of this I am exhausted, but using my alternate ratial trait from being human Heart of the Fields, I can ignore this completely. Allowing me to do it for another 8 hours if I like, or sleep unimpeded. Seems like a fantastic option, is there anything I am missing?
Fighter, it does what it says on the tin. So many choices with feats and styles no two are very similar. Huge, consistant damage, and an anchor for the team to hinge around. Wizard. I like to play mine as weathered generals controlling the combat with guile, rather than bookish fops. Huge power, and really rewards creativity and lateral thinking. Next is a tie between Druid and Bard, depending on the team. Druid, I am playing one right now, and at level 9 I feel like Emperor of the Universe. Very very very strong, out fight fighters, summon monsters everywhere, crowd control, great buffs and a strong companion. Alot of tactics involved, very fun. Bard, slots well into any party out there. Best force multiplier in the game, by far. Great flavour, spells and abilities and a defined niche. Very well designed class.
Give him a nemesis. High level Invulnerable Rager Barbarian with Come and Get Me, Sunder, Strength Surge and pounce. With a big ass sword, +5 Furious Adamantine greatsword big.
You don't have to be that nasty, but you get the idea, sunder your way through his defenses.
Level 8 is a sweet spot for shapeshifting druids. They will tear up everything level appropriate for the party that level if they get the gear they want. Later on in the teens the other melee classes will pull forward again, but Druids a full casters so...yeh.
I recently played a halfling fencer (9th level). That is an awesome Rogue mate, no joke. You've inspired me to try one like that myself.
Best choice? As in, strongest?
So, be shapeshift -and- spellcasting druid. Pick Oread as your race so you have 20 Strength and 20 Wisdom at level 1. Go Dinosaur shaman for standard action summoning and nasty dinosaur shapeshifting. Have a pounce allosaurus companion that kills on the charge, and what the heck be one yourself so you can do it too. Or you can go Tricerotops, or Stegosaurus... You have huge damage, buffing, healing, great crowd control, a companion, summons. Your party may be wondering why they came.
Dibs Diviner School
What are the other party members?
I'd be interested to see how an Arcane Duelist stacks up against a Magus (of any variety). Being able to Haste / Good Hope / Inspire Courage in one round would be very useful, especially with the two feats that give +1 to IC buffs. What feats are those?
Yes.
Wizard was of the God variety right out of Treantmonks guide, first time player who proved very capable, loved crafting. Sorceror was Undead bloodline, mix of blast and Save or Suck/Die, not much buffing. Halfling Rogue went dual kukri's high dex, everyone has seen these. Druid chose fire domain over a companion, went a more casting orientated build, oddly did not like summoning however. Bard took archery feats and buffing and enchantment spells. I'd also like to know how the Player was playing the monk in the first place as well. Attempted to make a high AC, high saves melee'er. Ran around with the rogue using mobility, grapples and flurries. Worked ok the first few levels, started to lag later on and not be able to take hits/avoid them at all. Got creamed alot, lack of damage became glaringly obvious when the wizard got access to pouncing celestial dire tigers (Still back in the day pre-smite nerf, undead etc took double from each hit). Strength helped this, but not much. The paladin he switched to had a companion, 2 handed sword and the charge feats.
Had a Monk played by one of my players in my Curse of the Crimson Throne game I DM'ed. He had major issues with it, as he went a dex route, and had to re-build in the 3rd book due to being useless. Switched to the Treantmonk Strength build through a personal plot, quit the character in the 4th book despite it in disgust. Picked up a Paladin and never looked back. The party was Half-Elf Wizard, Human Sorceror, Halfling Rogue, Half-elf Druid, Human Bard, Human Monk (Paladin).
Matt's build is solid, but I'd offer an a slight alternative I like to use. Human Barbarian (Beast totem, Invulnerable Rager), Favored Bonus = Superstition
Str 18
1 Feat: Power Attack, Raging Vitality (h)
I really like having Dazing Assault at 11. It allows you to try to disable casters when you attack them,, as well as limit the amount of punishment you take with Come and Get Me if you need it, by forcing Fort saves. Armour Proficiency Heavy for Mithral Full Plate, with the level 8/9 choices depending on your taste. If your campaign is going to level 20, I would pick up alot of the 1/rage powers to take advantage of Tireless Rage and level 17. Also, the Human bonus to superstition is the most powerful racial choice, but Dwarves with the steel soul feat can also make very strong Barbarians.
Monks are rad because they make the DM tone down the encounters so he can do something.
Haha, too true. Really, the Pathfinder Barbarian has truly impressed me as a martial class. It is packed full of flavour and power, without having to rely on spells, or stepping on any other classes toes. Paizo did really well with its APG changes, and I can't wait to see what is in store for Barbarians in Ultimate Combat.
Sounds like an endorsement of its power rather than a dismissal. The Barbarian is making the enemies focus upon him. Good. The readied action tactic will certainly take him by surprise. Once. Thereafter it becomes a guessing game between the player and DM. Another spellcaster readied an action again? Well this time I won't come out of rage... or maybe I will, who knows, care to waste a turn on it? Either way, the spellcaster is focussing his attention on the high saves, high hp, armour wearing, DR having barbarian and not his deadly but squishy allies. He is doing his job even better.
Wow I never noticed that before....that made me look at all the rage powers in a new way. That is really quite awesome. I'm tempted to change my barbarian build up to work in Flesh Wound, Knockdown, Unexpected Strike, Surprise accuracy and Mighty swing. Having those available once per round on top of Strength Surge would be amazing, even at level 17.
For your cash, why not invest in some Masterwork Alchemical Silver Brass Knuckles for 391 gp for another +1 to hit and DR bypassing. And a wand of Mage Armor to hand to your mage to use on you for tough situations.
That character is fine Ciretose, as I said previously, I am ok with Strength based monks, I merely see them as a sub optimal choice compared to other strength based characters. They aren't inviable like a dexterity build. Your progression is interesting though, if you want to continue. If you are following Treantmonks build, than I'm sure it will come out ok. Are we officially laying this Dexterity/grappling monk nonsense to rest then? That was my main pet peeve.
Crafting feats don't allow you to break WBL. Also, we are trying to make a baseline to see whether monks are viable, if your character needs to be over-itemed then the character is a flawed concept from the start. I would also not be so confident in your grappling ability, assuming your CMB stated is correct, which I haven't checked, and even with your items, it is only +41. The lowest CMD for bestiary CR 20 opponents is 51, although the average is about 54, some in the 60's. So it seems to be that you're the one needing 20's.
Before we look at this build we need to get those items in check. Your pricing is way off.
The real costs are. Monks Robe 13,000gp
To a grand total of 1,087,500. 207,500 gp over WBL. Also, you need some means of flight, this is level 20 we're dealing with. So throw in some Winged Boots for 16,000 gp.
Just...no. We have already dealt with these horrible builds just in the last page. It is a trap build which ends up with a useless character. Please don't insult us by having it suggested again as an example of a useful monk. Oh, and by the way, the example build given had an even higher wisdom than that, and Stunning Fist was still useless against what should be easy opponents. Without even having to mention the mindboggling impossibility of pulling off manuevers despite investing 5 feats in it.
Don't forget to take steel soul for extra dwarven goodness.
If I disregard this, its because I don't see this as an achievement. Anyone could have stood in that square. Hells, even a summon can protect casters from a charge and set up for a flank. You have to bring more to the table.
You made a level 16 character that does 11 damage a hit to achieve that CMB? Are you sure you aren't arguing for the Monks are bad side? Lets compare it to some CR16's.Black Dragon, Ancient CMD 45 (49 vs. trip), hits you on 2's, you need an 11 on your first attack, and he needs a 7 on his fort to save against stunning. Not good odds for you. Golem, Mithral CMD 54 Immune to stunning fist. Hits you on 2's. Horned Devil CMD 44 (and you average 1 damage per hit after damage reduction) Saves against stunning fist on a 9, hitting you back with his own stunning, which you need a 13. Is also flying. You need a 20 to land a maneuver, against everyone but the Horned Devil, who you can nail on a 19, but of course he can Greater Teleport at will. These are average opponents however, what about a moderate boss fight?
You need more 20's to land a maneuver, and you get murdered for even trying. You have no way for you to bypass Demon or Devil DR, you have no ability to do damage over the untyped DR alot of creatures have, you can't melee or even phase Dragons. Even despite going the dexterity route, you are still trading blows with what should be effortless same CR enemies, and get auto-hit by anything challenging. Thank you for proving our point.
Level 20? Wizard takes Divination specialisation, wins initiative without rolling, and the match.
Yes I use miniatures. No, our group, like yours, also has an imagination. Nice Ad Hominem fallacy though.
That's a real strange assessment. If the monk survives the wizards fireball, throws off the wizard's charm, and locks him out of further combat that the monks abilities are serving the rest of his party. \ It isn't too strange, it is the same as when someone makes a dwarven tincan, fullplate, shield, sword, hoping to tank, when there is a berserker in the party, and despairs when npc's get bored of trying to break through his defenses and instead attack the person doing twice his damage. Stacks of defense without any threat to back it up are meaningless, there is no reason attempt them, until the rest of the party is dealt with. Paladins have a little bit of this problem, but Paladins will murder you when they smite.
I play the NPC's exactly as they would act. If they are winning, they press the advantage, if they are cowardly and losing they will break and run. If the party gets over there head, it is up to them to save themselves. This kind of play is beneficial in two ways, as a DM it gives you a 'feel' for what kind of challenge is appropriate to PC's, and it gives PC's satisfaction that they earn every victory they come out of. That sword cuts both ways however, if the wizard throws a death spell in the first round and it sticks... thats their good fortune, I won't save my NPC's either.
Since you aren't responding to points anymore Lilith you must be in agreement that monks are mechanically selfish, and a dexterity/manuever focus is a frivolous waste of a a potential party member. I'm glad, because I wouldn't want newer players to fall into that trap. I'd like to state for the thread that some monks are more useful than others, a Four Winds/Sacred Mountain/Drunken master strength based monk can be very useful, as well as the Zen Archer archetype. Even so, I hope that Monks get the APG barbarian treatment in Ultimate Combat.
No, he didn't. This manuever based monk doesn't fill any role required of a balanced party. In effect you are designating that necessity onto others, while taking an inferior choice in aiding them. It is a selfish choice, and that is fine. Optimisation is not necessary, however, it does highlight 'Why are monks so bad'. If you leave the flavour aside, mechanically they are selfish. All of their abilities serve to help them only. This is even more obvious when you focus on dexterity. All of those manuevers you are talking about are just as doable with a Strength basis, while also having the ability to contribute damage. But by focusing on dexterity, you increase your own defenses, while giving up on damage. Yet another task for the party to cover.
If he just wants to do manuevers? He doesn't. Strange trick to choose though. Where does this monk fit into a party? Standard 4 player party.
Where does this Agility based monk fit in?
Glorious. I christen him Gronk. Gronk the Destroyer.
This is an old argument that began in 2010. In the example you gave in that thread (the beholder), it was revealed that your DM either did not know the rules, or was playing softball with you. The float like a butterfly, hit like a butterfly style of monk is still very questionable in terms of viability, especially when compared with the options of other classes. It's not a question of whether a monk can do something, it is whether they are comparable.
That's hilarious.....and true.
APG Barbarians are where its at in the melee mix at the moment. Go Invulnerable Rager for 10/DR, get Beast Totem for more natural armour and pounce, take superstitious for paladin like saves, Come and Get me and Dazing Assault means free attacks every round, and enemies make fort saves each time they try and hit you, and Reckless Abandon for Fighter AB. I can't speak for other types but this type of Barbarian tore down the house in my last game. Life is good in the Barbarian world.
Rogue Talents:
Advanced Rogue Talents
Bards gain all the class skills of Rogues, bar Swim and Disable Device. At level 16 they consider these, and every other skill in the game as class skill as well. For the loss of these skills at level 1 they gain all knowledge skills, only needing to invest 1 rank in each to be an expert on them thanks to the increadibly useful Bardic Knowledge and Loremaster. Using Versatile performance they gain skills at a 3 for 1 basis, more than making up for their 2 less skills per level, and on top of this treat those free skills as charisma based. Finally, at level 10 bards receive Jack of All Trades, which means they can 'fluke' any skill they have not to invested in and can take 10 in situations that threaten failure, thus making them the most reliable skill user.They are also a charisma based caster with all the charm spells, and all the social skills, making them a superb 'face' for the party.
I consider a 'standard' melee class one that can be relied upon to solely destroy a CR creature one equal its level in single melee combat if built well. Fighters/ Rangers/ Barbarians/Paladins/Cavaliers can do this. Some non full-BAB classes can do this such as Druids/Clerics/Oracles/Monks/Inquisitors. Fighters etc are valuable because someone has to tangle with the enemies. Those that can't have other tricks. Not every class has to be a capable melee, but they must bring other things to the table.If you do not need a rogue for skills, and rogues do not contribute equally to the party on the frontline, what reason is there for a rogue to be in the party? I am not saying a rogue player cannot contribute, I am saying that by choosing the rogue class they will not be able to contribute as much as another class. I merely want rogues to be stronger.
Ok, so they are a harder class to play than others. Fair enough, but what do you get from that? People that state they can outdamage other classes with Sneak Attacks...prove it? The tests run so far show that rogues fall far behind on the scale in terms of damage compared to other classes, even with their sneak attacks. Bards are now the undisputed skill users of the game, and they are a great force multiplier for the party, and they have spells. With the recent archetype additions for Rangers and Bards, you no longer even need rogues to handle traps. From what I see, when playing a rogue, you get a finicky, sub standard melee'er, or a very hard to set up ranged attacker. What are the benefits to the rogue class to counter balance the required 'tactical thought' and 'better than average gaming competence'?
I think the OP's point was that the Rogues niche, being able to disable magical traps, is achieved at level 1. After that they are not doing anything unique. Everyone of their skills can still be taken without taking another level of Rogue. Pure rogues have damage.... if they have a flank....but even then not as much as any full BAB class.... and they might get murdered in response. This is a powergamers perspective, but I wouldn't reccomend any of my table mates go full rogue. I would always reccomend a fighter/rogue mix, using Cornugon Smash. *shrugs* Paizo must be aware of these issues with the amount of board chatter on it. One can only hope Ultimate Combat shows them some love, like the APG did the barbarian.
Paladins are holy warriors of the gods. I can understand how you would see Richard the Lionheart and Roland, and think that is all they are, but consider Khalid Ibn al-Walid, the Drawn Sword of God. Just as much, if not more a holy warrior than the others, and extremely proficient in spear, lance, bow and sword alike. The Paladins choice of weapon has nothing to do with their Code, I submit that Paladins are more than the Western ideal of warfare.
If I may offer an alternative, use the Scout Archetype, and Cornugon Smash. That way you will always sneak, without Feint, or a flanker. Human
Build: Fighter-Power Attack, Weapon focus- Lucerne Hammer, Dazzling Display
Heres how it works. Charge the enemy with power attack (No penalties to hit due to furious focus), with the scout archetype you generate a sneak attack, and cornugon smash fires off, allowing you to easily demoralize, also, you get a bonus to AC equal to your sneak attack dice thanks to Offensive Defense. Next round because of shatter defenses they are automatically flat footed and can be sneak attacked at will. Added bonuses- With Mithral armour and armour expert trait, he suffers no Armour check penalties in Full plate.
Any other tactics? Ranger specific or otherwise? The feat Mounted Skirmisher from the APG allows a full attack if your mount moves less than or equal to its movement. It isn't available until level 14, but its much better than pounce, as it requires no set-up. So ride your large sized wolf and full attack, and enjoy the trip attacks as well.
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