Help with hitting a PC...


Advice

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leo1925 wrote:

For those that recommended targeting his CMD:

I don't know how his enourmous AC comes from but keep in mind that A LOT of the things that give you AC also give you CMD by default (whether they say so or not)

Also alot of things that do not, armor, shield, natural armor for instance do not help at all, which might be enough to turn someone from unhittable to merely challenging, a trip, sunder or disarm attack can further make things quite tricky even for a high AC PC.


DAM! Just erased my long winded post before I hit the send button.

So here is the short short version...

Would this work?

Use spectral hand to cast teleport on your PC's gear. Its a touch spell that only works on a willing target (The PC is out), but attended items get a Will save. Teleport can effect One willing medium target AND everything that target can hold up to its max load. The PC must be willing but his gear doesn't have to be. Might get lucky and catch the PC touching another PC (Add your puns here) and strip them both. you should be able to chain this up to 1 load per 3 CL as per the spell if you catch them in a group hug or something. Only question here is does each item get a save, or is it one save per 'load' as this is how the spell description lumps every item together.

Being naked in combat usually sucks.


Ultradan wrote:

Hi folks,

I have a player in my game who has a character practically no monster of mine can hit. He's practically a walking tank. Mind you, we're approaching the end of an adventure path so the PCs are all like 16th-17th level, so it's quite normal for them to have strong characters.

I'm just looking for a way to make that PC a little more 'hittable' so I may rough him up a little in the final few battles. I know if I hit him with something like a SLOW spell, the wizard of the group will automatically dispell it on the next round... So how would you guys go about it, without making it look too much like you did it on purpose?

(I don't want to kill the guy, but having him practically walk through the final chapters of the Adventure Path unscathed would be quite an anti-climax...)

Thanks!

Ultradan

You know, it's funny. I'm playing a tank ATM at about 13th lvl. We use some fairly 'non-standard' stat rules, but our magic item allowance is close to half our WBL. My fighter still is high 30s AC before he uses expertise. I got laid low after falling down a shaft (failed a climb check) into water (pfffs... swim skill... when is that ever going to be used?) in full plate and being attacked by electric eels (CR about 5?). Denied dex because your struggling to keep your head above water and touch attacks actually was scary for a minute. Esp because he was now about 60 feet of climbing below the rest of the party and had drunk his potion of fly earlier (and had worn off).

There are plenty of options to do damage to a high AC char. You need to find something that works for you and fits the theme of the AP (haven't gone that far through RotRL).

Brilliant Energy weapon (do they still exist in PF?). Ignores armor and Shield bonuses (and enhances from them). In essence, touch attacks, but you keep natural armor.

God squad of evil clerics with just enough charisma to exclude all of them from their channel negative energy (and a horde of skeletons to slow the party down).

Swarms have no to hit roll. Monkey swarm is CR 3 and just hits for 2D6. Mandragora Swarm if you really don't like them. Confusion poison. STR damage on their swarm damage (with no save), and Will save or be nauseated on combat start. Wonder if he's a little OP for a CR 13. I'm guessing if he isn't flying ALL the time it's a limited resource that he needs to activate? Implies a spell or magic item that he MIGHT not be able to pull off when he's distracted, suffering from confusion and STR damaged...

Go find some things that have an Engulf attack and use it. Advance 2 or 3 Gelatinous Cubes from CR 3 to 12 and have them supporting a big bad. Undead Oozes are CR 6 to begin with and have an engulf.

Spells with touch or ranged touch to connect. Alchemist bombs. Spells that are just 'make a save'. Transmute rock to mud made someone's day unhappy in our campaign when it was used inside a tunnel... on the roof. Less a 'damage' concern and more a 'suffocation' concern. Bulls Rush (Or Telekenisis) him off the edge of a cliff into water infested with electric eels... Do a Loki and encourage him to charge a silent image version of big bad on the edge of aforementioned cliff.

Happy hunting!

Liberty's Edge

I gotta say, Killatron hit the nail on the head. Alchemist is a great way to go vs. high AC (as they target touch AC). I have one in my current party and he really brings the meanest, nastiest monsters down to size. Give him the Acid bomb discovery and he can choose fire or acid for damage (in case of resistances). Also, explosive bomb and precise bomb discoveries will allow him to catch said tank on fire, hit his nearby (within 10') allies, and do no damage to the other baddies. It's a pretty bad@$$ ranged touch character.


Killatron5000 wrote:

One evil alchemist bomber. The new king of the touch attack.

No the gunslinger with multi-barrel firearms shot him for 600 damage in one full attack and took the bullet ridden remains off the crown of the shredded meat that was left.


I had player back few years ago just like that. The thing with really high AC you tend to do less damage. At those high levels he found he wasn't much of a threat as I wouldn't bother attacking him. Better to just take out the rest of the party then they can gang up on the tank.

Of course the tank, changed his tactics using combat maneuvers to help control the battle field. Since he had no problem landing a hit making use of bulls rush, disarm and trip help the party defend against the aggressors.


Dragonsong wrote:
Killatron5000 wrote:

One evil alchemist bomber. The new king of the touch attack.

No the gunslinger with multi-barrel firearms shot him for 600 damage in one full attack and took the bullet ridden remains off the crown of the shredded meat that was left.

It's highely debatable the fact that the double barrel pistol has built in manyshot and effectively doubles the number of your attacks.


leo1925 wrote:
Dragonsong wrote:
Killatron5000 wrote:

One evil alchemist bomber. The new king of the touch attack.

No the gunslinger with multi-barrel firearms shot him for 600 damage in one full attack and took the bullet ridden remains off the crown of the shredded meat that was left.
It's highely debatable the fact that the double barrel pistol has built in manyshot and effectively doubles the number of your attacks.

I agree (and do not think it should) but as it stands the TWF gunslinger is the touch attack king.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Ecaterina Ducaird wrote:

(...)

Swarms have no to hit roll. Monkey swarm is CR 3 and just hits for 2D6. Mandragora Swarm if you really don't like them. (...)

That's what I was looking at. There was one based on Gold piece looking beetles from an Orison source that could fit that area nicely or even better with a flying move, poison upgrade, golden template (tome of horror), etc.


Slime wrote:
Ecaterina Ducaird wrote:

(...)

Swarms have no to hit roll. Monkey swarm is CR 3 and just hits for 2D6. Mandragora Swarm if you really don't like them. (...)
That's what I was looking at. There was one based on Gold piece looking beetles from an Orison source that could fit that area nicely or even better with a flying move, poison upgrade, golden template (tome of horror), etc.

Have a monk UMD a scroll of anti magic and then go full defensive and stick to the fighter like glue? Should make him a ton easier to hit, especially by archer/mages with poisoned arrows that have True Strike for a round or two.

True Strike affects the attacker so would not be stopped by the Anti magic, but I am AFB and don't remember if Anti Magic Field has a range or not...

Alternately, Brilliant Weapons is 7th or 8th level spell from the 3.5 Spell Compendium that basically puts the Brilliant Energy effect on groups of people. That could seriously mess up the entire party if added to some level 6-7 Archery mooks with access to True Strike.

Liberty's Edge

Killatron5000 wrote:
One evil alchemist bomber. The new king of the touch attack.
Dragonsong wrote:
No the gunslinger with multi-barrel firearms shot him for 600 damage in one full attack and took the bullet ridden remains off the crown of the shredded meat that was left.

Dude, you're response was a little too specific. I take it we should all stay the hell out of your crawlspace?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

UltraDan,

I feel your pain as I also have a PC in my group with a max'ed AC. The thing to remember is that most of the bad guys are not stupid. The way I handle it is to have the BBEG spend 1 maybe 2 rounds attacking the tank. Then once they have had an opportunity to realise how hard he is to hit they then concentrate on the other softer pcs with the plan to come back to him later. Now for those BBEG who are shown as having spied/scryed on the party they just ingore the tank completely. The advantage I have here is the tank PC has made himself almost combat ineffective other than a shield for the rest of the party.

Also when the BBEG is a caster be sure to target the tank with spells that do touch attacks or debuff as that can also bring him down to size for the minions.


Heymitch wrote:
Killatron5000 wrote:
One evil alchemist bomber. The new king of the touch attack.
Dragonsong wrote:
No the gunslinger with multi-barrel firearms shot him for 600 damage in one full attack and took the bullet ridden remains off the crown of the shredded meat that was left.
Dude, you're response was a little too specific. I take it we should all stay the hell out of your crawlspace?

No more frustration at some of the questionable (for me) gunslinger builds I have seen here coupled with the fact that we do play and are talking about a game that at time requires us to engage in descriptive language of violence.


Throw a Magus at him. Shocking grasp targets touch AC and gets a +5 bonus to attack when attacking someone in metal armor. Then deck it out with metamagic. Intensified raises damage to 10d6, and if you take magical lineage: shocking grasp it won't raise the level. A bit of a one trick pony, but it is a nice trick.


Lol, for fun, here's the rundown on that tank:

Base AC 10
Full Plate +4 (+13 AC) (Armor Bonus)
Tower Shield +4 (+10 AC) (Shield Bonus)
Shield Focus (+1 AC) (Feat)
Greater Shield Focus (+1 AC) (Feat)
Ring Of Protection +4 (Deflection Bonus)
Amulet Of Natural Armor +3 (Natural Armor)
Combat Expertise (Can take a -3 or -4 on attack rolls to get a +3 or +4 Dodge Bonus on AC)
LongSword +3 Defending (+3 Enhancement Bonus)
AND a +2 Dex Bonus (has Armor Training so technically he could get a +3 Dex Bonus but is limited to +2 because of his tower shield).

That makes like 50 or 51 AC when using combat expertise... Sigh!

Ultradan


The Magus also has the option of taking an arcana from the UC that turns an entire round of melee attacks into touch attacks.

With the intensified shocking grasp, a quickened spell and a debuff stored in a spell storing weapon along with three or four melee attacks (all hitting touch AC) and the magus could effectively hand the high AC PC his innards in a round or less.

Level 5 ninja baddies with firearms are really mean:
Poof! Here's 1d10+3d6+5 plus 1 strength damage against your flat-footed touch AC!

Oh yeah...

Two words: Magic Jar.


Ultradan wrote:

Lol, for fun, here's the rundown on that tank:

Base AC 10
Full Plate +4 (+13 AC) (Armor Bonus)
Tower Shield +4 (+10 AC) (Shield Bonus)
Shield Focus (+1 AC) (Feat)
Greater Shield Focus (+1 AC) (Feat)
Ring Of Protection +4 (Deflection Bonus)
Amulet Of Natural Armor +3 (Natural Armor)
Combat Expertise (Can take a -3 or -4 on attack rolls to get a +3 or +4 Dodge Bonus on AC)
LongSword +3 Defending (+3 Enhancement Bonus)
AND a +2 Dex Bonus (has Armor Training so technically he could get a +3 Dex Bonus but is limited to +2 because of his tower shield).

That makes like 50 or 51 AC when using combat expertise... Sigh!

Ultradan

Yea a 19-23 ish touch AC

Also not as bad as I was expecting I dont see missle shield or ray shield to help him offset spells and such.


Ultradan wrote:

Lol, for fun, here's the rundown on that tank:

Tower Shield +4 (+10 AC) (Shield Bonus)

Shouldn't that be only a +8 Shield AC with a -2 to his attacks?

Best bet is to hit him with Touch attacks and use a series of targeted Dispell on his flight/items to supress their effects for a few rounds. Hit him with a volley of tanglefoot bags.

Or ignore him. He seems purely defense oriented. How dangerous can he be in combat. As well, what is his will save? Hold spells or dominate/charm spells will put him in his place. What sort of elemental resists does he have? Even lower damage AOE spells add up if hit by enough of them. Few wands of lightning bolt or acid arrow can mess him up.


Give him a nemesis. High level Invulnerable Rager Barbarian with Come and Get Me, Sunder, Strength Surge and pounce. With a big ass sword, +5 Furious Adamantine greatsword big.
Pounce him, destroy his shield to drop his AC and stop shield bashing shenanagans, then his armour, then his sword, hell sunder a buff if you want. His AC just dropped by 26. If he fights back, punish him with come and get me.

You don't have to be that nasty, but you get the idea, sunder your way through his defenses.


Gilfalas wrote:
Ultradan wrote:

Lol, for fun, here's the rundown on that tank:

Tower Shield +4 (+10 AC) (Shield Bonus)

Shouldn't that be only a +8 Shield AC with a -2 to his attacks?

Also per Sean's eratta defending weapons bonus can only be used in rounds you attack with it so not really helpful against ranged attacks while you are closing the gap so that's(situationlly) 5 off the AC making him a good bit more vulnerable


The harshest way of dealing with Mr. Invincible might just be to kill off his friends. Take out the rest of the PCs around him and see if he can do anything to stop it in time.

Grand Lodge

cibet44 wrote:
AerynTahlro wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
AerynTahlro wrote:
Silence on the wizard, Slow on the tank, Touch attacks against the tank, teleport the tank 300' into the air
Only you can't teleport someone onto a surface that can't support their weight...

I don't see that note anywhere in the spell description...

--> http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/teleport

I've never read that either. It does sound like a great way to keep Teleport from being an offensive spell though.

Well, and the fact that targeted persons need to be willing targets, as per the target entry of the spell.

Would be nice if there were a Baleful Teleport, though, with a more restricted range (10 ft per caster level?) and a few of the restriction removed. A twisted dimensionalist archetype comes to mind. I'm thinking the spell could be used similar to the shaitan's bull rush ability (imprison target(s) by teleporting them into solid objects), or teleporting them straight up and falling to their doom.

But I digress...


Have the enemy have an spellcaster with them.

1st round:
quickened (he has rod) cloudkill
forcecage

Tear the rest of the party up so that they have no time to help him.

Or go classic and let enemy spellcasters sling around with dazing spells.

Or make someone summon a giant scorpion (improved summoning, ofc). Or several of them. His plate, Shield and the natural armor won't help him against it. Does a defending sword give dodge bonus to AC?
And let them grapple the hell out of him.

Or dominate him (spell) while keeping his allies busy...

Or planeshift him to another plane. Its basically a will save or die. Or can he cope with the negative energy plane? I doubt that.

Or just ignore him since he can't be a serious damage dealer with all this equipment...

Dunno there are a lot of options around. If he optimizes to be invulnerable he must cope with you optimizing your monsters.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I still think the humble rust monster is being overlooked (or the not so humble Dire Rust Monster or even Awakened Rust Monster).


lastblacknight wrote:
I still think the humble rust monster is being overlooked (or the not so humble Dire Rust Monster or even Awakened Rust Monster).

+1

I really like this suggestion. Very malicious. >=]


hgsolo wrote:
lastblacknight wrote:
I still think the humble rust monster is being overlooked (or the not so humble Dire Rust Monster or even Awakened Rust Monster).

+1

I really like this suggestion. Very malicious. >=]

Evil, actually...

lol

Ultradan

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