Backtospawn's page

Just to comment: Honestly, in my opinion the value of more skills is actually very low.

Why? Because most classes only keep up with increasing 3 skills to maximum benefit. And many skills don't have much benefit to only being trained.

And beyond that there are ways to get trained (and even expert) in additional skills without having higher int.

Honestly, I think basically everybody has the same capability when it comes to skills (specific skill choices not withstanding) except the rogue/investigator who get 5 instead of 3.

From my experience getting to lvl 2 in pathfinder society games more skills are pretty valuable early on. I assume in the late game getting a +13 or whatever will be better than a +0 that if forced to roll can only crit fail or fail on a nat 20.

For homebrew number of skills can be more or less valuable depending on how many players, a classic 4 party will be fine if they don't overlap, 3 players will struggle and 5 or more can afford to have some stuff that multiple people can do.

For combat though Saves, AC and Attack bonus/Spell DC is 99% that matters

Pumpkinhead11 wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Pumpkinhead11 wrote:

This is a Level 6 Fighter Feat and a Level 8 Rogue Feat. We already have abilities that do this very thing at this very level range.

No we don’t.

Throwing a weapon and it ricocheting back to you is not the issue with the feat.

That has been one of the most talked about issue with a number of posters; including this very thread.

No, actually read the complaints.

The issue isn’t the rebound, the issue is that you shoot your own weapon after you’ve thrown it to increase the damage (instead of just shooting the jerk you just threw your weapon at) by making it go faster, and then it rebounds to you, which gets even sillier when you go over piercing weapons.

Absolutely no one is complaining about the ability to ricochet, it’s everything else involved in the feat.

Sounds like a very easy fix though, just change the wording so that the bullet hits the target instead at a rule of cool angle to send the weapon back flying to you.

Maybe change the 1d6 to mental damage as they struggle to comprehend what just happened /s

I think it will also be very common for people to have a 1d6 thrown weapon for this so they can put a returning rune on it though.

Backtospawn wrote:

I really don't see the problem with this feature.

Backtospawn wrote:

The explanation is silly and makes no sense

Thas it.

Good point lol. I guess I just assumed that it will get rewritten for sure, the feature is fun, throw and shoot at an opponent, similar to the paired shots but only one reload and bonus damage in exchange for -2 attack on the throw and chance to lose that weapon is cool. But there was a clear oversight by not mentioning why would the weapon return other than game balance.

I really don't see the problem with this feature. There is plenty of lower level ways to get thown weapons to bounce back to you after the attack. The explanation is silly and makes no sense but it's easy to reflavor it at your table as both attacks hitting the enemy for extra damage with the return happening only on both succeding.

I imagine many people will use this with a returning rune just in case one of the attacks misses.

Yes it gives the return option to non-thrown weapons and having a rapier bonunce from your enemy is silly, but at level 9 martials are well in the realm of supernatural. A level 6 monk (Titan Wrestler + Whirling Throw) can throw a huge creature 30 feet away.

RPGnoremac wrote:

Now comparing casters to each other can be mildly helpful but really how do you compare Bard vs Wizard features they are so different.

Great question. Comparing Bard and Wizard has been really eye opening for me. Bard has a ton of core advantages. How does Wizard make up for that? Can it? Fun and roleplay aside (which isn't fair I know), I don't think it does after this analysis.

I'm still open to criticism on all parts of this though. It's not complete. It's not advanced. It's not the whole story. I'm the first to say it, but it's interesting and helping to answer some of my questions on class building and comparing benefits.

Wizards have more spell slots per level to compensate for the bards more martial features and compositions.

Anyway, I think the Witch vs Bard compare much better since compositions and hexes work quite similarly so Witch gives up 2 hp level, EEM vs EEL saves, low level AC, and weapon proficiency (not very relevant though). In exchange they get a buffed up familiar and while hexes and compositions are similar, hexes have a more offensive nature while compositions are more support oriented.

I think this shows what values the design team puts in their features. Good/decent 1 action cantrips are worth 1 slot/level. A class feature roughly equivalent to 3 class feats spread over several levels (Familiar + Enhanced Familiar + Incredible Familiar) equivalent to 2HP/level, light armor and M to L bump of a save.

I kind of always felt the Fighter is the "problem class". It can pretty much just do everything every other class can do and sometimes better. Now this will be true for the Gunslinger too.

If Fighter didn't exist every class could just have fun unique features that didn't have to compare with a flat +2 proficiency. Gunslinger is going down the same path now too.

I can say one thing though the "Gunslinger’s Way" feel quite interesting to me and have oddly amazing synergy with archetypes.

Oddly the Gunslinger can now take Martial Artist and be legendary in unarmed at level 15 EVERY round you could dragon’s tail 3 targets at 0 MAP.

If their proficiencies don't scale like this then I apologies for my misunderstanding

It is just speculations but I was thinking/hoping that other classes would get gun feats or an basic gun archetype which would put Fighter above the Gunslinger even more.

Inventor is a class that gets super cool features though that make the class seem like it will be super fun.

It does work like that but the drifter ability has to be 3 attacks to 3 different enemies. It would be like Path of Iron but with no 1 minute cooldown. And you could get Dance of thunder for when the enemies are farther apart.

Unicore wrote:

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

Candlejake wrote:

With only 8 class hp Gunslinger is basically a glass cannon so id give him some kind of damage boost over fighter

This is something that doesn't seem to come up much.

Gunslingers are notably more fragile than Fighters. As such, they should be able to hit even harder than them.

This is a big part of why I am asking what the gunslinger brings to the table that the Fighter can't get with the addition of an archetype or a few new reloading feats.

I don't like current Gunslinger. I've been a little shocked to see they were having Fighter proficiencies. What other class features could fit into the chassis without making it overpowered?

I would have prefered a strong class identity like the Swashbuckler, which is clearly way more than a free hand fighter with different feat choice.

It's like swashbuckler but instead of using an action to gain panache debuffing an enemy, gaining a bunch of benefits and allowing the use of powerful finisher attacks you spend the action reloading and you get to use a weapon that's almost as good as a bow. I guess at least reloading can't fail.

Gunslinger needs to get either more damage or better utility. The fact that utility feats like Smokescreen are basically a three action activity (reload + attack + utility) makes it so you rarely get more than one thing done in a round. Unless you spam risky reload get a bit higher damage but still less than an archer and no utility at all.

The keen feat is level 18 for Fighters so a bit of power creep but not too much. Barbarians get a better version of Fatal Bullet at 18 where it works with any weapon and also inflicts some bleeding.

Firearm Ace is actually a great example of Fatal Bullet issue. +2 to damage means +4 on crits from a level 1 feat. Meanwhile the level 16 feat gives +6.5 or +5.5 on average but only to crits. Unless you are fighting very debuffed mooks your chance of normal hit will always be higher than your chance to crit so Firearm Ace actually gives more damage than Fatal Bullet.

I think Firearm Ace is way too important to the class and should be a class feature not a feat because it's not a choice at all but still.

This seems to be similar to the other Ways though, all the free draws mean nothing in that game. A 10 foot Step won't help much and the Stride of Drifters can't be used unless you perceive enemies.

Why would the Sniper benefit be put on hold while the others are wasted?

But if this is a problem at many tables maybe change so the free actions and the damage can be done "Once until you make your first Strike" would be difficult to word properly though.

The way most tables I've been in usually play I think it's fair than in the encounters where you roll initiative in front of the bads the Gunslinger has their thematic quickdraw reaction time but if your party is ambushing someone the benefit is lost.

I'm not saying hair trigger is a great option either, I was mostly referring to my own experience, I was hyped about the Stealth Sniper type and thought Fatal Bullet would be great but even when you crit very often is just an extra die at level 16 when your crits already hit for at least 7 dice already.

I didn't save the calculation but Arquebus critting with only Greater Striking (less dice is better for the feat but of course we don't want less damage) so a normal hit is 3d8+8+2 (weapon specialization and firearm ace) and a crit 7d12+20=65.5 so 6.5 extra damage is just 10%. I think I found a gun that would do 12 % but I don't remember what combination that was. And with Major Strikingthis feat is less powerful.

Some playstyles will hate Hair Trigger because they want loaded guns at the start but even then other feats might be better.

And of course the last lvl 16 feat is by far the strongest... If you are in a campaign where enemies are shooting at you often.

I guess My opinion has shifted slightly to Fatal Bullet is meh and it should be lower level to be competitive, or better, we need more options at level 16.

It occurs to me that while I like all of this very much, because this is also all crossbow conversant it makes me think of universalities, there may be some disconnect between “everybody else reloading guns/crossbows” and “gunslingers reloading guns/crossbows”. Is this the Reloader? Or should everyone be able to do something while reloading?

"Dozens of new arquetypes" I assume some of them would make reloading feats available to everyone besides Running Reload already being an Archer feat.

The fatal trait is very strong, specially on a Legendary proficiency class like a Gunslinger. Still this feat is only adding a single damage die to an already brutal crit likely to finish off a foe resulting in overkill.

Compared to Hair Trigger, the extra attack will average more damage than what your first 8 crits or more, depending on your weapon, would get from the extra die. Except for exceptionally long fights or a party focused on boosting you up (heroism, tripping opponents, clumsy...) You are unlikely to crit enough to compensate, and even then a big burst of damage early to help quickly take down an enemy (and reduce his impact in the fight) is more valuable than the every round DPR increase.

Even if the playstyle of the group involves rarely hitting in the first round like some more urban/intrigue campaigns, you might be better off with a lower level feat.

Did I miss something or is it just a feat that sounds cool until you run numbers and see it adds only 12% aaverage damage to a crit in the best case scenario.

Pistolero is also being cast as using double pistols, so I don't think locking hands-free reload into Drifter is the best move.

For the sniper, I think you should also be able to get that effect by just aiming without reloading. It'd be a bit weird if you can't quite perform so well with a pre-loaded run than you can with one that you're just loading :P

But overall, I like your way of thinking. Using the Way to style reloading a bit more is a nice concept.

True, I forgot Pistolero lvl 15 requires dual wield. This is a very rough suggestion before ever playing. I just feel like the class needs more options to play with Reload. It doesn't feat the concept of using the Way for it but a reaction to reload would be nice since the best Gunslinger reactions can't be used without a loaded gun anyway.

I haven't gotten to play it yet but so far it seems like most people problem with the Gunslinger comes down to Reload feeling like a tax you pay for the theme. Guns don't do more damage than bows except on crits and bows having Deadly it's not even that far off.

Also the dual wielder playstyle is broken without a level 6 drifter feat or two dual wielder archetype feats. There are other problems like Sling and Crossbow support missing from most feats but that's easy to fix.

Others have posted suggestions on ways to improve Reload and I have some thematically split by the Way.

Drifter: You can take the Reload action without needing a Free Hand.
Pistolero: (Once per turn) When you critically hit an opponent you can Reload the weapon you used as a Free Action (Maybe as a Reaction?).
Sniper: When you take the Reload action you can designate a creature you are hidden from as your mark. If you Strike that opponent with the next action you can add precision damage equal to the number of dice on your One Shot One Kill.

I think these could be low level feats for people who want to dual wield, shoot more often or do more damage. Before playing I would even say this could be gotten for free as part of the Initial Deed but that could easily be unbalanced and the target of these is not to make Gunslingers more powerful, just make people feel like their Reload action is more than a tax to pay for their guns.

Backtospawn wrote:

My understanding was this was meant to be used only for drifters, hit with sword, then flurry. The feat is completely rubbish for dual wielding pistols. In fact there is no good way to dual wield pistols without abusing quick draw and doubling rings to ignore reload and just keep dropping a pistol after every attack.

I think this would still be very usable if the Reloading Strike feat at level 6 was not also a flourish. The fact you can only use one of them per round is what really kills the combo. Since a melee/ranged drifter benefits more from a free reload when he can't reload otherwise than from a free attack at -10 (or -8 with agile melee).

Then again removing flourish from Reloading Strike would let them hit 4 times per round, 3 melee 1 ranged. Even then I wonder if Rebounding Assault + Reloading Strike would be better by reducing MAP.

You can't even abuse the doubling rings actually, they're linked to one pair of firearms and after dropping the first pistol you're down to mundane or significantly lower level runes on your pistols. The only vaguely functional way to play a dual-pistol Pistolero is to spend your second level and fourth level feats on the Dual-Weapon Warrior Archetype to get the Dual-Weapon Reload feat that allows you to reload a one-handed ranged weapon while your other hand is occupied by a weapon.

Right I just saw it bonds to a pair of weapons. I guess investing in the archetype is the only way without having to drop and pick up weapons constantly. They definitely need to add either some support for the dual pistol theme or remove the flavor text refering to it because even with the archetype 2 reload actions are too much for either a Flurry attack or a Paired Shots is just not worth it, not to mention all the reactions that required a loaded gun.

Backtospawn wrote:

My understanding was this was meant to be used only for drifters, hit with sword, then flurry. The feat is completely rubbish for dual wielding pistols. In fact there is no good way to dual wield pistols without abusing quick draw and doubling rings to ignore reload and just keep dropping a pistol after every attack.

I think this would still be very usable if the Reloading Strike feat at level 6 was not also a flourish. The fact you can only use one of them per round is what really kills the combo. Since a melee/ranged drifter benefits more from a free reload when he can't reload otherwise than from a free attack at -10 (or -8 with agile melee).

Then again removing flourish from Reloading Strike would let them hit 4 times per round, 3 melee 1 ranged. Even then I wonder if Rebounding Assault + Reloading Strike would be better by reducing MAP.

A feat should not be locked in to a 'way' unless the way is a prerequesite, and it is bad if for the hobby if the feat is good for only one type of play, in case if you missed the whole "illusion of choice" debate. This was a lazy feat stolen from fighter that works poorly for the gunslinger, and they got my opinion. Without press, this feat would give such a good opportunity to blast turn 1 for the brace of pistols type of guy

I was just mentioning it seems it was added with that way in mind but even in those ideal conditions it's still bad (specially for a level 14 feat). I haven't played it yet but it does seem the Gunslinger needs multiple changes before dual wielding guns is viable.

My understanding was this was meant to be used only for drifters, hit with sword, then flurry. The feat is completely rubbish for dual wielding pistols. In fact there is no good way to dual wield pistols without abusing quick draw and doubling rings to ignore reload and just keep dropping a pistol after every attack.

I think this would still be very usable if the Reloading Strike feat at level 6 was not also a flourish. The fact you can only use one of them per round is what really kills the combo. Since a melee/ranged drifter benefits more from a free reload when he can't reload otherwise than from a free attack at -10 (or -8 with agile melee).

Then again removing flourish from Reloading Strike would let them hit 4 times per round, 3 melee 1 ranged. Even then I wonder if Rebounding Assault + Reloading Strike would be better by reducing MAP.