Avoron's page

I've been trying to find if there's another case of a creature having an unusual type of natural attack (AKA not on the list in the Universal Monster Rules) that doesn't call it out as being explicitly a natural attack. That'd do a lot to convince me that sound strikes are natural attacks. My google skills are coming up short, though, so I'm not sure if there's any way to check that other than going through the Bestiaries one by one and looking for it.

Sure, there are plenty. The most common at an initial glance are probably tendril attacks (calathgars, cerebric fungi, charnal colossi, heartrot trees, neshmaals, rhu-chaliks, smokeshades, stranglereeds, tsaalgrends, yellow musk creepers) and tongue attacks (akanames, belier devils, boggards, bogwiggles, froghemoths, giant slugs, hunter urchins, mohrgs, neothelids, nikaramsas, suspiridaemons), but there are also the occasional outliers like satyr horns, kangaroo kicks, and platypus spurs. And even the standard natural weapon names aren't universal - claws might be listed as foreclaws, tail slaps might be tail barbs or tail fans or just tails. The list really is just a guideline.

It still doesn't explicitly allow for unusual damage types like you said earlier.

Sure it does.

Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature's description.

Specifically, I was speaking to the fact that not adding Str to damage on the sound strikes doesn't disqualify them, any more than a dragon's bite attack adding extra Str damage makes the bite not a natural weapon.

It's from the "Natural Attacks" entry in the universal monster rules - specifically, the last line.

Format: bite +5 (1d6+1), 2 claws +5 (1d4+2), 4 tentacles +0 (1d4+1); Location: Melee and Ranged.

This makes it pretty clear that natural attacks can be either melee or ranged.

1) "Natural attack" doesn't mean "an attack form that isn't Ex or Su"; it means an attack with natural weapons, such as claws and bites. So I don't believe either of your examples counts.

I'm not sure that follows. There are all sorts of different natural weapons beyond claws and bites, and there's no reason that, say, "sound strikes" couldn't be one of them. After all, it's formatted just like all other natural attacks in the game. And the rules specifically say they can include ranged attacks, or can deal unusual damage.

I mean, you'd agree that other rules for natural attacks apply to the sound strikes, right? If you made a full-attack with sound strikes and manufactured weapons, wouldn't you take a -5 to hit?

FWIW, I'm currently allowing a player in my home game to use the Rusalka's tresses and it doesn't really come across as significantly more powerful than any other ball of natural attacks the Polymorph spells offer. I really like that it gives a reason to pick a form other than the flying form with the most natural attacks (looking at you, Monstrous Gargoyle Physique).

Agreed - the reach is lovely, but it's not game-changing when you stack it up against other fey form I options like the rabisu.

Then again, there's still about a 50/50 chance that Mogaru gets stunned by any given breath attack from Varklops

Wait, how do you figure that? Varklops' breath weapon has a DC 43 Reflex save and Mogaru's Reflex save is only +24, giving him a 90% chance of failure even before factoring in kaijuslayer.

When combined with the fact that Varklops can attack with Lunge while flying safely out of Mogaru's reach, this would make it trivial for Varklops to chip away at Mogaru's health with Greater Vital Strike and stun-lock him with a move action whenever his breath weapon or firebolts would be available.

Cool build, Slim Jim! I do see a few issues though.

the VB's Precise Strike eventually becomes a HUGE pile begging multiplication

Precise strike is precision damage, and isn't multiplied on a critical hit.

The weapon you really want is the Waveblade, which is a piercing 18-20/x2

I don't see the agile enchantment anywhere on your equipment list - until you get that on your waveblade, you'll be taking a -4 penalty on every single damage roll.

* +5 to all saves as soon as Circlet of Persuasion acquired

Not how it works - since Cha adds to your other stat instead of replacing it, it still doesn't count as a Charisma-based check. There's an FAQ.

Also, why on earth would you put more points into Int and Wis than Con?

If you're lawful it might be fun to grab the Warrior Priest feat and go into hellknight signifer.

One fun archetype for a Dex-based kobold paladin is the virtuous bravo, giving you Weapon Finesse for free plus a bunch of defensive abilities to make up for your Con penalty. You could get Fencing Grace by 3rd level, or if you really want to go crazy you could take the Tail Terror feat and then Slashing Grace with a long lash kobold tail attachment for a lovely finessable reach weapon. Slow to get going, but once you grab Combat Reflexes and start dishing out loads of attacks of opportunity with Dex-to-damage, precise strike, and smite, you'll truly be a terror to behold.

Okay, let's take a look at some animals.

Beast Shape I

Bull shark has the highest base damage of any medium form for Vital Strikers and the like, followed by giant porcupine if you need a land speed for some reason. And the digmaul is strictly better than the leopard at this level (which does not, in fact, have a swim speed). As small combat forms go, the dallo’s worth mentioning for its darkvision, scent, and three primary natural weapons that put it up there with the velociraptor and eagle.

Beast Shape II

Highest base damage form is now the arsinoitherium at 4d8. Meanwhile, the marax is a serious contender for the dire tiger's title of best pouncer - it doesn't have grab, but it's got four attacks and half of them have reach. I'd say the impaler shrike's 60-ft. flight speed, grab, and reach let it solidly beat giant vulture as the best large flyer, and at this level the plesiosaurus is strictly better than the narwhal. If you're going tiny, rabbit beats the fox for speed, and margay might well be the best combat form with its climb speed and cat-level attacks. Quillcat's worth noting as a small form with pounce.

Beast Shape III

The bull of zagresh has better trample damage than the mastadon. And the yolubilis heron is a better flyer than the quetzalcoatlus - not as scary in a full-attack, but more mobile and with 1.5x Str on its bite. If you're going diminutive a jerboa or horned lizard is strictly better than a hedgehog, adorableness notwithstanding. You say there's no small animals of note, but the trumpeter swan flies faster now than anything else out there. Finally, it might be worth mentioning some creatures with ferocity, like the dire badger or ceratosaurus.

For alter self, take a look at the canopy troll (Small form with perfect senses and bite/claw/claw/sting attacks with reach on the sting) and the sewer troll (Medium form with perfect senses and bite/claw/claw attacks with reach on the claws).

With this spell and a bucket of known size you can create a rudimentary clock! Just cast it when you set up camp for the night, and you can keep perfect track of when to change watch shifts and how long your casters have to sleep to regain spells.

In other words, "yeah, I got nothing."

Ooh, lovely! I've always wanted to try a paladin in a game without alignment, so I'm thinking of making a fetchling virtuous bravo.

Or better yet, in the middle of a crowded city square.

Three words: symbol of exsanguination.

I'm not sure I'd want to rely on just outrunning/evading my foes with a base 90ft flying movement particularly since it could be shut down, albeit temporarily, by Dispel or worse Antimagic

Even setting aside the fact that in an emergency iron resilience can negate that sort of attack, I still don't see that as a problem. Air walk gives you rounds of free feather falling if dispelled, so the davana's got plenty of time to resume the air walk as a swift action at the start of its next turn.

As for shutting down in antimagic, that's not a bug, it's a feature. If you catch a floating davana titan in an antimagic field it will automatically fall until it leaves the area, bringing its magical defenses back immediately so you don't get a chance to attack while it's vulnerable.

Were you thinking of Wind Walk perhaps as I'm not sure how you came up with 640ft movement

Sorry, not 640 ft./round, 720.

Base speed of 90 ft., running at four times base speed, with dual initiative letting it run twice per round.

I’m done with this.

I'm... sorry? Sorry that creatures can meet each other, that crafting feats are powerful, that multiclassing... exists? I'm not quite sure what my gnome did to upset you so much, but I sincerely apologize for causing you undue distress.

I believe the Davana Akashic Pillar's ability being referenced is that anytime it dies, it simply pulls a past copy of itself from the Akashik Record, which could theoretically be 1 minute younger than the version the group initially encountered. I don't know off hand how often it can do this, but if it's indefinitely, then I think we have a winner.

It's limited by mythic power, which they have at least ten of. It looks like that could still be bypassed by effects that kill them all at once - they can reset automatically, but if they do it before dying the thing that killed them will still take effect afterward, and if they wait until after they die it's too late. But of course, then you run into iron resilience.

You might be able to cut those defenses off with an antimagic field, since while the abilities themselves are extraordinary, the mythic power that fuels them is supernatural. Except it looks like iron resilience can block antimagic itself, since it works on area attacks and things that don't allow saves.

A davana pillar's defenses are really, really thorough.

Combat feats with minimal prereqs useful to most spellcasters. Um.

Don't forget about Amateur Swashbuckler for dodging panache! Everyone in your party will qualify, and it can be a lifesaver for staying out of melee range, especially if someone would get hit by a full-attack after a 5-ft. step or a pounce.

For ranged attacks it might be worth it to hand out Improved Unarmed Strike and Deflect Arrows, or better yet Shield Focus and Missile Shield if everyone's got at least a mithral buckler.

In terms of actual rage powers, it might not be a terrible idea to grab the Energy Resistance or Elemental Blood line to let your blasters go crazy and maybe give everyone a movement boost.

They're not immune to harm, but they're immune to being harmed by it.

Davana's still have nothing to get past the old greater invis+mind blank chestnut so in theory they go down to any person with a high impact ranged attack(s). Plus they don't have any rapid bug out abilities besides walking which is problematic for getting away from the local buffed archer thing.

Both valid points. Though with an at-will greater dispel magic it can use twice per round, that greater invisibility and mind blank probably won't stay up for very long. And if it does need to run, it does so through the air at 640 ft./round, which might be a bit tricky to keep up with while full-attacking.

no ability damage or drain resistance/immunities

Note that it can deal with ability damage fairly easily with a quickened heal.

my Loremaster would probably try a combo of Enervation and Acid Arrow

Enervation does still have to deal with SR 39 - manageable, but worth taking into account.

No unusual movement abilities, he's a ground pounder.

Well, it does have constant air walk. So more of an air pounder.

Does second save do what I think it does (wasn't having much luck finding the ability)?

It's a mythic monster ability: whenever it fails a save against an ongoing effect it gets another one at the start of its next turn.

Finally, keep in mind that any strategy based on wearing it down becomes literally ten times more difficult if you're dealing with a davana pillar with the Akashic Guru ability, because every time you think you've killed it it comes back at full hp, with no negative levels and all its heals.

In terms of teamwork feats for spellcasters, maybe take a look at Allied Spellcaster, Callous Casting, Elemental Commixture, or Escape Route.

Alternatively, how about a dual-cursed life oracle? Immediate action misfortune lets you make sure enemies tank their saves while your allies make their own, life link is great for shoring up low caster hp, and magic variant channeling lets you boost everyone's concentration and caster level checks in a pinch.

But the topic of the Thread is the Hardest official monster, not "theorycrafting Koan Builds". Lets keep on topic.

I couldn't agree more. I've been trying to keep my responses spoilered in the hope that things would die down, but it doesn't seem very successful.

Anyway, my original goal was just to demonstrate the value of broadly applicable defenses against niche forms of attack. With that in mind, does anyone see a glaring weakness in the davana titan? Any way to neutralize them other than brute forcing it with a dozen encounter-ending effects? Because that alone makes me see them as a contender for the hardest monster to defeat, especially if they get a davana pillar variant ability.

undead, constructs, inevitables, swarms, will-o'-wisps, warmonger devils, and anything with negative energy affinity

With all that aside, yes any monster in the book can be defeated if you plan a build just for that monster, but in most games you're not building for monster X. You're building something that is always useful, and Mr.Koan like any other build(monster or PC) will have weaknesses that can be exploited.

You are aware that Mr. Koan was built three years ago on a whim for an entirely different set of foes, correct? Just checking.

We’ve been over this.

We have.

Please tell me, in nineteen words or less, how Varklops can see a flying invisible gnome with a +63 Stealth bonus.

Perfect for use during interstellar travel to find planets with functioning water cycles.

It only says you lose your next action, not your next turn.

It was specifically clarified by Sean K Reynolds to be referring to the creature's next turn.

And sign language is not an official language in the game, even though I think it should exist so a GM can easily say "show me sign language in the book".

They most certainly could, at which point I would show them Black Markets, page 24, where it explicitly lays out the rules for sign language and describes several different types, including Drow Sign Language (Sakvroth) and the sign language of Varisia. I could also point them to the list of drow bonus languages, as well as references to sign language in the rules for the monk vow of silence and the spells aphasia and shield speech. If all else failed, I would simply take the Gesture Expertise trait - or learn to speak Flail Snail.

The base DC to hear someone screaming questions at the top of their lungs is probably around -10. Varklops has a +34 Perception bonus, so he can hear the koan from 450 feet away even if he rolls a natural 1. Meanwhile, Ferdinand can fly up invisibly with a +63 Stealth bonus before distance modifiers - which, as previously mentioned, Varklops has no way of countering. Getting within 450 feet won't be a challenge.

For further reference, here's a koaner pitted against Ancalagon, Pazuzu, and Cthulhu. As for this new set of foes, several of them will fall to the globe of tranquil water trick, while Vorgozen will take about twelve days of koaning before she collapses from thirst, and Tawil at'Umr and Black Butterfly will probably require some outside assistance to finish them off. But Bewildering Koan still does the heavy lifting, it just needs someone to mop up with the killing blow.

Anyway, this is all a little bit off-topic. My main point was to demonstrate that the complex layered defenses of many of these enemies remain vulnerable to niche forms of attack, while all-purpose counters like the davana titan's dual initiative and iron resilience provide a much more thorough form of security.

A Bewildering Koan build will have a very heavily optimized bluff check. With that level of dedication, even something as impressive as a +50 sense motive won't be sufficient. Presuming something like a Ninja 2 / Sorcerer 18:

The Bewildering Koan build I had in mind has a +85 Bluff bonus before pageant of the peacock, with a cyclops helm for emergencies.

Is the koan mind-affecting? It doesn't say but I would think it is.

Nope, not any more mind-affecting than any other use of the Bluff skill.

Actually BB no sells the Koan thing thanks to her aura. I doubt many GMs are going to let you pantomime a question.

Not pantomime, actual sign language. Black Butterfly has truespeech, so she automatically understands you.

Baalzebul, Varklops, Vorgozen, the Oliphaunt, Black Butterfly, and possibly Tawil at’Umr can all be incapacitated as a swift action by a decent Bewildering Koan build. A davana titan, meanwhile, just sits back and laughs.

Let's check with our friend Google, shall we?

baleful polymorph, banishment, bestow curse, blasphemy, bleed, breath of life, chaos hammer, chill/heat metal, chill touch, cloak of chaos, command/control plants/undead, control water, cure/inflict light/moderate/serious/critical wounds, death knell, dictum, discern lies, dismissal, dispel chaos/evil/good/law, disrupting weapon, forbiddance, ghost sound, glitterdust, hallucinatory terrain, halt undead, harm, heal, hide from undead, holy smite, illusory wall, imprisonment, mage's disjunction, magic aura, magic jar, major/minor/permanent/persistent/programmed/project/silent image, misdirection, mislead, order's wrath, (lesser/greater) planar binding, plane shift, prismatic spray/wall, pyrotechnics, repel vermin, repulsion, sanctuary, screen, shades, shatter, shield of law, (greater) scrying, (greater) shadow conjuration/evocation, slow, speak with dead, soul bind, telekinesis, teleport object, trap the soul, undeath to death, unholy blight, veil, ventriloquism, warp wood, wish

Along with channel energy, that should cover most of the core rulebook. The bestiaries, of course, will have much more variety.

The Sideromancer wrote:

I've seen a pretty crazy use of Gift of Consumption and it's upgrade. Specifically, willingly exposing yourself to the biggest Fort-based Save-or-die in existence: a coup-de-gras.

Oh wow that works, doesn't it. You still eat the crit, but that's awesome. I'm imagining a witch being executed by beheading, then the executioner's head falls off, or the judge.

It gets even better if you use it with marionette possession on your nycar familiar, so you can't die or fall unconscious from the hit point damage.

Technically, greater teleport is enough. Interplanetary teleport is a redundant spell with literally no advantage over the former beyond a higher Will save DC.

Not quite. Greater teleport requires "a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting" that gives you "some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination." For a planet you've never been to and aren't in communication with, this can be hard to get. Interplanetary teleport, meanwhile, explicitly works just fine if all you know is the planet you're aiming for, and it automatically takes you to a safe place.

Fortunately, though, there's a much easier way: two castings of plane shift. That can put you anywhere on any plane with no knowledge needed - the error radius of a few hundred miles is inconvenient for most uses, but that's nothing on the scale of interplanetary travel. If you can't cast the spell yourself, you could buy an item or bind an outsider to cast it for you. Or just pay a cleric a couple thousand gp.

I'm thinking shoot for both traits that lower the spell slot level when you add metamagic to them and put a lot of focus onto baleful polymorph. It's level 5 in both lists. With both traits, it's level 6 as a familiar spell, and the familiar could then carry four castings of it, though I think holding back one for a greater dispel magic would be wiser.

Also note that Wayang Spellhunter doesn't work on baleful polymorph, since it's not 3rd level or below.

Correct. The fact is, there aren't that many [good] spells that can deal direct damage to humanoids in the first place. Being treated as good would protect you from a fair number of them: burst of radiance, spear of purity, litany of righteousness, blaze of glory, holy smite, etc. You'd still be vulnerable to a few corner cases, like shield of the dawnflower or holy ice, and debatably to good spells that just create physical weapons, like holy ice weapon or light lance. But honestly, how often are any of those going to come up? I'd be more concerned about the myriad non-damage ways to incapacitate characters in Pathfinder.

That said, some means to gain protection, though not full-out immunity, against spells with the [good] descriptor include: the fiendish appearance evolution, the Fury of the Tainted feat, the Improved Fury of the Tainted feat, infamy's panoply armor, mail of malevolence armor, a pantheistic clasp, or the World Serpent Spirit rage power.

If you want more thorough protection, your best bet is probably to hide in an antimagic field, or maybe an unhallow spell set to counter any spell originating from someone with a different faith or alignment from you with dispel magic, although even that's far from unbeatable.

Wait, are you sure you use the elemental's DC? The rules for the polymorph subschool seem to indicate otherwise.

In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits... The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.

So the DC for your whirlwind would equal the DC for your wild shape, which according to this FAQ is 10 + level of the spell being emulated (7) + your key spellcasting ability score (Wis).

Looks to me like DC 17 + Wis, and you can boost it further by taking Ability Focus (wild shape).

I agree. For comparison, take a look at the text of the wizard variant multiclass:

At 7th level, he gains the 1st-level powers of his chosen school. If any of those powers grant an extra effect at 20th level, the character does not gain that extra effect.

This makes it crystal clear that the level 20 benefit is not a separate power - it is simply an "extra effect" of the 1st-level power Forewarned, which Mythic School increases.

Precisely! Here are the relevant rules:

While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon.

We know earth elementals are capable of speaking in Terran, and the subtype rules say that if they're generally humanoid in form they can make complex enough movements to wield weapons, so somatic components should be possible as well.

You can't use material components that are melded into your form, but with wild shape's long duration it's simple enough to set down your spell component pouch before you transform and pick it up afterward - or if you're expecting to be transforming in a hurry, you can invest in a polymorphic pouch.

Per the rules for Magic Item Slots for Animals, the only body types capable of grasping and carrying are avians and bipeds.

So at 4th and 5th level your best option is probably the deinonychus, or the dimorphodon if you want flight. At 6th and 7th level I'd go with the impaler shrike for a great flight speed and grab, but there's also the chalicotherium with scent and a pair of claw attacks. From 8th level on, the allosaurus is the classic choice with its lovely pounce/rake/grab routine, but the quetzalcoatlus or yolubilis heron make solid flying alternatives.

Finally, at high levels you can always turn into an earth elemental with a roughly humanoid form, getting some great bonuses, defensive abilities, and earth glide while still capable of holding and using items, as well as performing verbal and somatic components without the need of a feat.

That being said, anything in the below CR 1 range with high AC is annoying and possibly deadly.

An ambush by sixteen young squirrels would be a bizarrely terrifying CR 3 encounter. They've each got +22 Stealth, +6 initiative, +8 Reflex, +14 to hit, and 24 AC. So the question just becomes "can you grapple them to death before you fall unconscious from the bite damage?"

I'm incredibly annoyed at the lake of bears

I am deeply disappointed that this was just a typo.

Housecat wins CR 1/4th by a long distance.

I dunno, there are some pretty tough CR 1/4 critters out there.

To start with, the skunk has stats pretty much identical to the cat, except it also has a ranged musk spray that hits on an 8 and the cat needs a 10 to save against. The nausea on a failed save is basically a death sentence, and even on a success they're still sickened.

Then there's the king crab or creeper ivy, either of which will succeed on its grapple check on a 2 and knock the cat unconscious from constrict damage on the second turn.

The scarlet spider might just win through hit-and-run tactics alone - it hits the cat on a 7 while the cat needs a 14 to hit back, the spider has 1 more hp, and as long as the spider keeps moving the cat can't get off a full-attack. Plus there's that Str poison that incapacitates on three failed saves to discourage the cat from just sitting there.

The porcupine beats the cat in the greatest way possible: any attack the cat makes will hurt itself just as much, and the porcupine has more hp and a solid tail attack to help speed things along. A cat is likewise helpless against a pufferfish despite its lack of natural weapons or a land speed. The lich newt could win through a similar mechanism, though not as efficiently - the cat might knock it unconscious before succumbing to the poison, though it certainly won't kill it, and the newt will recover more quickly.

The nymph water strider has a flight speed and 5-ft. reach, so it can just beat down the cat while swooping by from above without even entering its space. Likewise, the pyrausta can just strafe the cat from the air with its breath weapon, or just swoop down with Flyby Attack. Even if the cat readies an attack and gets lucky, it won't matter with the pyrausta's fast healing. It can also just set the ground on fire with its at-will spark.

Finally, the mite and the tooth fairy are both entirely immune to all of the cat's attacks, and thus can take their leisurely time stabbing it to death or stealing it's teeth.

Nice. Excellent counterexample.

I've always found that starting with a set of mechanical choices helps me write more creative and interesting characters, all the more so if the choices don't intuitively go together. It's like how poems with rhyme and meter can be easier than free verse, because you've got something to work from other than a blank page and your own head.

Oh, we can use anything that was published before April 2011? So just to make sure, that would include spells like infernal healing (Inner Sea World Guide, March 2011) and emergency force sphere (Cheliax, Empire of Devils, August 2009)?

And for Oric's sake, didn't Boon Companion first come out in Seekers of Secrets in October 2009?

Or about Additional Traits?

Fun! You mentioned we only start with the trait for our crime, would we be able to take Additional Traits for more?

If I may explain….I understand that limiting character creation to Paizo sources that existed prior to April 2011 (release date of the module) is frustrating given all the current options available.

It's actually kind of fun, flipping through my physical books for once to see what's out there instead of just searching the archives.

I was looking at some Huge form options, originally I thought the behemoth Hippo was the hardest hitting single attack form but it appears this beast is one above him https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/megafauna/megafa una-deinotherium/megafauna-elasmotherium/

This is quite impressive strong jawed.

Oooooooh we have a new winner!!

Now, all we need is a beastkin berserker with Improved Vital Strike and Furious Finish: with strong jaw that's 216 base damage on a standard action, before any bonuses.

Is there room for a straight Cleric of Dezna? Travel/Exploration and Luck Domain/Subdomain. I like casters but it seems like you already have interest in the arcane arts.

If it helps, the mystic theurge I'm working on is a druid/wizard, so a cleric in the party certainly wouldn't go amiss!