Avoron's page

I'm here! Sorry, I was working most of the day and didn't get a chance to check in, but I'm super excited to have been chosen. I'll get an intro post up in gameplay shortly.

Couldn't Mira craft wondrous items?

Yes, and if I recall correctly she made five of those feather tokens for Sunreturn.

Okay, let's take a look at some animals.

Beast Shape I

Bull shark has the highest base damage of any medium form for Vital Strikers and the like, followed by giant porcupine if you need a land speed for some reason. And the digmaul is strictly better than the leopard at this level (which does not, in fact, have a swim speed). As small combat forms go, the dallo’s worth mentioning for its darkvision, scent, and three primary natural weapons that put it up there with the velociraptor and eagle.

Beast Shape II

Highest base damage form is now the arsinoitherium at 4d8. Meanwhile, the marax is a serious contender for the dire tiger's title of best pouncer - it doesn't have grab, but it's got four attacks and half of them have reach. I'd say the impaler shrike's 60-ft. flight speed, grab, and reach let it solidly beat giant vulture as the best large flyer, and at this level the plesiosaurus is strictly better than the narwhal. If you're going tiny, rabbit beats the fox for speed, and margay might well be the best combat form with its climb speed and cat-level attacks. Quillcat's worth noting as a small form with pounce.

Beast Shape III

The bull of zagresh has better trample damage than the mastadon. And the yolubilis heron is a better flyer than the quetzalcoatlus - not as scary in a full-attack, but more mobile and with 1.5x Str on its bite. If you're going diminutive a jerboa or horned lizard is strictly better than a hedgehog, adorableness notwithstanding. You say there's no small animals of note, but the trumpeter swan flies faster now than anything else out there. Finally, it might be worth mentioning some creatures with ferocity, like the dire badger or ceratosaurus.

Three words: symbol of exsanguination.

Perfect for use during interstellar travel to find planets with functioning water cycles.

It only says you lose your next action, not your next turn.

It was specifically clarified by Sean K Reynolds to be referring to the creature's next turn.

And sign language is not an official language in the game, even though I think it should exist so a GM can easily say "show me sign language in the book".

They most certainly could, at which point I would show them Black Markets, page 24, where it explicitly lays out the rules for sign language and describes several different types, including Drow Sign Language (Sakvroth) and the sign language of Varisia. I could also point them to the list of drow bonus languages, as well as references to sign language in the rules for the monk vow of silence and the spells aphasia and shield speech. If all else failed, I would simply take the Gesture Expertise trait - or learn to speak Flail Snail.

"Thank ye lad. I do not deserve this kindness. How...much do I owe ye after we return to town?"

Perrin blinks. "Are you kidding? You just saved my friend from what might have been permanent scarring. I'll do whatever I can to keep you alive." He looks sheepish at that, and adds hurriedly, "I mean, also your life is inherently valuable too! It's not just about the healing. But wow, that healing."

"What in the nine hells is going on here? Are the Elven Lands so low as to resort to mere banditry now?"

"It's... complicated." Perrin hesitates, unsure of how much to share. But he decides to go for it. "Brookside was attacked by orcs, but we found papers showing that the elven council was manipulating them. We think they were trying to justify troop movements into the Bishopric to prepare for a larger war." He follows Arla's gaze to the prisoner in the cart and grimaces. "We're taking Elrin to the Bishop to uncover the truth. I guess this ambush was meant to stop us from getting there."

He turns back to Arla and looks her in the eye as though noticing her for the first time. "You said you're the coroner? Wow - I didn't realize that job was so... dramatic. That was some amazing magic back there." He stoops down, then holds out the runestone and the belt. "Here, these might come in handy if we run into another attack." Since the belt won't stack with Kazador's Ability Mastery. He also offers her the ring with the crossbow mark. "And this should help with your archery. I'd give it to Mel, but I don't think she wants any part in it."

Struck with a sudden thought, Perrin rushes back to the trunk and retrieves a small crimson bottle, a tightly rolled parchment, and a stone tablet inscribed with golden runes. Smiling warmly to Arla and Kazador, he lays them out on the ground alongside the wands he was holding. "Speaking of which, here are a few magical devices that aren't quite suited to my talents. Please, both of you, take whatever you can put to good use." Wand of grease (48 charges), wand of haste (3 charges), scroll of invisibility (CL 4), scroll of disguise self, and potion of enlarge person. No reason for Perrin to hog all the consumables!

Wait, are you sure you use the elemental's DC? The rules for the polymorph subschool seem to indicate otherwise.

In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits... The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.

So the DC for your whirlwind would equal the DC for your wild shape, which according to this FAQ is 10 + level of the spell being emulated (7) + your key spellcasting ability score (Wis).

Looks to me like DC 17 + Wis, and you can boost it further by taking Ability Focus (wild shape).

I agree. For comparison, take a look at the text of the wizard variant multiclass:

At 7th level, he gains the 1st-level powers of his chosen school. If any of those powers grant an extra effect at 20th level, the character does not gain that extra effect.

This makes it crystal clear that the level 20 benefit is not a separate power - it is simply an "extra effect" of the 1st-level power Forewarned, which Mythic School increases.

Per the rules for Magic Item Slots for Animals, the only body types capable of grasping and carrying are avians and bipeds.

So at 4th and 5th level your best option is probably the deinonychus, or the dimorphodon if you want flight. At 6th and 7th level I'd go with the impaler shrike for a great flight speed and grab, but there's also the chalicotherium with scent and a pair of claw attacks. From 8th level on, the allosaurus is the classic choice with its lovely pounce/rake/grab routine, but the quetzalcoatlus or yolubilis heron make solid flying alternatives.

Finally, at high levels you can always turn into an earth elemental with a roughly humanoid form, getting some great bonuses, defensive abilities, and earth glide while still capable of holding and using items, as well as performing verbal and somatic components without the need of a feat.

That being said, anything in the below CR 1 range with high AC is annoying and possibly deadly.

An ambush by sixteen young squirrels would be a bizarrely terrifying CR 3 encounter. They've each got +22 Stealth, +6 initiative, +8 Reflex, +14 to hit, and 24 AC. So the question just becomes "can you grapple them to death before you fall unconscious from the bite damage?"

I'm incredibly annoyed at the lake of bears

I am deeply disappointed that this was just a typo.

Housecat wins CR 1/4th by a long distance.

I dunno, there are some pretty tough CR 1/4 critters out there.

To start with, the skunk has stats pretty much identical to the cat, except it also has a ranged musk spray that hits on an 8 and the cat needs a 10 to save against. The nausea on a failed save is basically a death sentence, and even on a success they're still sickened.

Then there's the king crab or creeper ivy, either of which will succeed on its grapple check on a 2 and knock the cat unconscious from constrict damage on the second turn.

The scarlet spider might just win through hit-and-run tactics alone - it hits the cat on a 7 while the cat needs a 14 to hit back, the spider has 1 more hp, and as long as the spider keeps moving the cat can't get off a full-attack. Plus there's that Str poison that incapacitates on three failed saves to discourage the cat from just sitting there.

The porcupine beats the cat in the greatest way possible: any attack the cat makes will hurt itself just as much, and the porcupine has more hp and a solid tail attack to help speed things along. A cat is likewise helpless against a pufferfish despite its lack of natural weapons or a land speed. The lich newt could win through a similar mechanism, though not as efficiently - the cat might knock it unconscious before succumbing to the poison, though it certainly won't kill it, and the newt will recover more quickly.

The nymph water strider has a flight speed and 5-ft. reach, so it can just beat down the cat while swooping by from above without even entering its space. Likewise, the pyrausta can just strafe the cat from the air with its breath weapon, or just swoop down with Flyby Attack. Even if the cat readies an attack and gets lucky, it won't matter with the pyrausta's fast healing. It can also just set the ground on fire with its at-will spark.

Finally, the mite and the tooth fairy are both entirely immune to all of the cat's attacks, and thus can take their leisurely time stabbing it to death or stealing it's teeth.

Lovely! Vors, it's been great gaming with you, and I wish you the best.

As for a follow-up campaign, I'd definitely be interested! We've come to a great place, but I think Perrin and Mel still have more of a story to tell, and I'd be sad to see them go so soon. I agree that we could probably continue just fine with the two of us, but it might be nice to recruit another player, if only to mix things up a bit.

Likewise, I'd be fine with either PC or NPC classes - I think working within the NPC chassis provides a unique challenge, but I definitely wouldn't say no to some more tricks at our disposal. Whatever Mel would prefer works for me. If we do end up switching to heroic classes, I'm thinking a life shaman might be the best approximation for Perrin: allowing him to keep his familiar, channel energy, and Wis-based prepared divine casting without an alignment restriction.

A Gunslinger/Vigilante/Bard/Occultist/Barbarian is an example of nothing but shameless ability hording by someone with no character concept other than 'winning' Pathfinder.

"All my life I've been intrigued by the objects around me, working to tell their stories and unlock the power they contain. But everything changed when I found the gun of a fallen hero - for when I hold it I am filled with a consuming rage at this meaningless loss. On the surface I am still that same mild-mannered storyteller, yes, but beneath there is something else, a furious warrior who will stop at nothing to avenge these long-dead champions and ensure that their struggles are not forgotten."

Perrin stares after Mel curiously for a moment, then shrugs and goes back to packing.
Knowledge (arcana): 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (20) + 1 = 21 to understand these abilities, except he's not trained so he can't beat more than a DC 10 anyway.

When he's finished, he heads out to meet the others and wishes Vors a fond farewell. "If there's anyone I trust to keep this town safe, it's you." Then he turns to Mel and holds out two items: a fine elven cloak, and a pendant that matches the one around his own neck. "Here, for the journey. They're enchanted for protection, I found them on Ukar and... the other." A cloak of resistance +1 and amulet of natural armor +1.

The small aether elemental is pretty ridiculous for CR 1, with flight, blindsense, telekinesis, natural invisibility, and multiple ranged attack options.

A winter hag with a couple hag or witch minions gets access to a free unlimited-use full-round action simulacrum. At CR 7, that's got to be one of the most overpowered abilities in the game.

The hardest hitting single attack form at level 4 is the bull shark (2d8 bite). Next up is the giant porcupine (2d6 tail slap) if you're one of those losers who actually needs legs. Honorable mention to the giant gecko (2d4 bite), if you happen to want a climb speed.

At level 6 you've got the arsinoitherium (4d8 gore) and at level 8 you've got the behemoth hippopotamus (4d8 gore) or cameroceras (4d8 tentacles).

Witch? No new hexes and many are tied to your levels.

There's always the white-haired witch/sohei monk/eldritch knight route, with Feral Combat Training so you can flurry with your hair plus anaconda's coils and spiked haramaki for some extra damage on every grab. Unlike many of the hexes they replace, the abilities on this archetype are incredibly front-loaded, so the increased martial prowess from eldritch knight could definitely be worth it. Bonus points if you take Combat Reflexes and Vicious Stomp to make full use of the trip ability and that lovely reach.

And for extra fun, you could play a ratfolk with a mauler familiar as a flying mount, and take Mounted Skirmisher as your prerequisite-free sohei bonus feat so you get psuedo-pounce with your flurry of hair right off the bat.

As Mel peers down at the map, Perrin takes the scrolls and wands from the bag and examines them with his spell. Spellcraft: 1d20 + 10 ⇒ (16) + 10 = 26

But when Mel starts talking, he turns his whole attention back to her, his face sliding first into worry and then helpless despair. His eyes dart around, unable to meet hers, and his gear slides forgotten to the ground. Sense Motive: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (6) + 3 = 9

When she's finished with the map he takes it and stares down blankly at the arrows and lines. For a moment he doesn't speak, just looks at the map in painful silence. "Pawns," he finally mutters in a small voice, hand twisting at the amulet around his neck. Int check: 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (17) + 1 = 18

Then his eyes seem to focus on what he's seeing, and when he looks up again, it is with a purpose. "You know what happens to pawns, right? When they get to the end of the board?" He stands up straighter, raising the map into the sunlight. "They become whatever the hell they want."

He stalks over to the elf and brandishes the map like a weapon. "You're right. You can't stop us from taking your stuff. If I decide to, I could very easily take this map back to what's left of our town, hop on that horse you so kindly sent our way, and ride north until I get to Iustia's border. I wonder what they'll think when I show them these plans, and tell them everything you've done? Because it looks to me like this counsel of yours are bullies who take what they want and don't care who they hurt."

"But hey. I might be wrong. We've been wrong a lot lately, it turns out, and it's starting to feel like our thing. So if you want to convince us that we are, if you don't want us to set off for Iustia by nightfall, you'd better start talking right this instant. What's going on?"

Intimidate: 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (20) + 1 = 21

There is the Cannibalism subdomain of Evil domain hinting that cannibalism is evil. Raging cannibal barbarian archetype hints that eating the flesh of sentient creatures is evil.

I mean, there's also the Fear subdomain of the Evil domain, but you wouldn't argue that using fear is inherently evil, right? All sorts of good actions can involve making people scared.

As for the raging cannibal, that archetype doesn't even have any alignment restrictions beyond the standard non-lawful rule for barbarians, so if anything I'd see it as an argument against a monolithic view. In fact, it specifically draws attention to the distinction between different reasons for cannibalism in its flavor text (no pun intended).

Is there a list or description of what constitutes an evil act anywhere?

Yep!

Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit... Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

Cannibalism itself doesn't hurt, oppress, or kill anyone, so long as you're eating people who are already dead. It doesn't debase or destroy innocent life because it doesn't do anything to innocent life, it does something to a dead pile of flesh.

I think I have to tone down my earlier stance though. Eating the flesh of sentient creatures if you would otherwise starve would not be Evil. Circumstances and intention matter.

Agreed. I'd go even further, and say that as long as you're not causing or contributing to the deaths yourself, and as long as you're not stealing corpses from distraught family members, there's nothing particularly evil about cannibalism in the first place.

You mention that consent is important in defining whether it is good or not, having the monsters basically die for you. Problem is, I don't think they actually can consent. The spell forces them to "fight for you to the best of their ability".

They certainly don't get any say in whether or not to obey you, which is a big part of the evil. But as far as I can tell they still have a mind of their own, so as long as you can communicate with them you can instruct them to tell you truthfully whether or not they would cooperate if they had the choice.

I suspect that the answer is that what ever powers enforce the alignment system, have deemed the desecration of corpses is worse than causing pain and discomfort for sentient creatures.

And I'd argue that behaving a certain way because some cosmic force of the universe will reward or punish you for it is at best a lawful action, and at worst a selfish one.

Could you use summoned Giant soldier ants guilt free? They are mindless, so incapable of suffering and won't really die.

I'd say so! Real-world insects are a bit more iffy, because it's hard to tell with certainty exactly what sort of capacity for suffering they have, but Pathfinder rules seem pretty clear that vermin are just as lacking in thoughts as zombies or robots.

So yeah, that might be a pretty unambiguously decent choice. Of course, a bloody skeleton would be a much more efficient option, since you wouldn't have to spend another spell every couple minutes, and efficiency translates to morality to the extent that the opportunity cost of those summons includes spells you would be using to help people.

If you do prefer summoning, though, a lemure devil might be an even better option of the same level. They're just as mindless as the ant and have loads of resistances for tanking traps and other hazards. Unfortunately, summoning one of them gives the spell the evil descriptor just like animate dead, so it might not be more appealing. I have a hard time seeing how putting one of the building blocks of Hell out of action for a day is an evil act, but that's the way it goes.

It would not matter though, cannibalism is Evil, no matter why you do it.

Which rulebook is that in again?

It seems that everyone agrees that it is not a Good act to use the cannibal as a minesweeper. Might not be Evil but definetly not Good.

I'm not so sure. I think if you have reason to believe they can and will reveal the traps rather than walk into them it could be a good act, or if the only alternative is killing them outright. Then you're just straight-up reducing the amount of suffering and death.

About bloody skeletons. Animating undead is Evil. So it is actually more evil to trigger the traps with skeletons than trigger them with ponies from Mount spell.

Oh, it's definitely "evil" in the game mechanic sense, it's just clearly the more ethical thing to do. If you're interesting in racking up cosmic points, sure, never summon undead and spend all your time spamming spells with the [good] descriptor. But if you're interested in actually doing what's right, maybe don't send helpless ponies into excruciating deaths when there's a much less harmful alternative.

In Golarion at least it seems that summoned monsters don't actually exist when they are not summoned.

That directly contradicts the rules for summoning in the core rulebook.

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.

Avoron wrote:

Still pretty morally grey. Summoned monsters can't permanently die, no, but they're still entirely capable of suffering. Unless you're shelling out a delay pain for that pony, you're getting into some pretty serious moral problems of your own.

How is the pain from stumbling on traps different from the pain of having the enemy stab/hack/crush the summoned monster? Are you saying that using summoned monsters to trip traps is worse than having them fight for you? In both cases you are willingly sending them to be hurt and "killed".

Nope, I'm asserting that in both situations inflicting suffering on a being with some degree of sentience and no choice in the matter is a gross moral bad, and can only become a net moral good if it prevents greater harm. Which I'm sure is often the case - good character's don't typically send summoned creatures to their deaths just for amusement, and from a mechanical perspective the whole point of summoned monsters is often that they get hurt so that the party doesn't have to. Doubly so if the party's survival is crucial to some world-saving goal.

My point was mostly to the comparison between using a summoned monster to trigger traps and using the prisoner. I don't think it's as cut and dry as you presented it - no permanent death is a plus, but not if you'll be killing the prisoner anyway. And at least the prisoner might know where the traps are, so they'd have the opportunity to reveal them and then nobody has to get hurt.

Interestingly enough, a nice bloody skeleton would probably be a more ethical way of testing for traps then either of these methods. They're mindless, obedient, and practically indestructible - what's not to love?

Summoned monsters are more efficient and less morally grey way of sweeping for traps.

Still pretty morally grey. Summoned monsters can't permanently die, no, but they're still entirely capable of suffering. Unless you're shelling out a delay pain for that pony, you're getting into some pretty serious moral problems of your own.

As for the prisoner, I definitely think there's some hypocrisy implicit in objecting to the trapsweeping but not to the killing. Recall that this was presented as a plan "to catch at least one cannibal alive," implying that any not captured for this purpose will simply be put to death. That in itself is problematic, and alternative methods of containment may or may not be feasible. But if it's a question of whether to kill the prisoner outright, or else allow them to choose whether to die or test for traps, I find it hard to see how the more permissive option is less acceptable.

Aqueous orb works excellently with Dazing Spell, and before that aggressive thundercloud makes a decent substitute. I'd even suggest grabbing Additional Traits so you can get Magical Lineage/Wayang Spellhunter on your favorite blasting spell.

Ooh, fun question! So you're creating a simulacrum of an extremely powerful creature to possess with Twin Soul... and your GM is letting you use Assume Supernatural Ability to gain one of its activated Su abilities as well? Lovely, sounds like quite a game. Let's see...

One option is to possess something massive so you can crush your enemies underfoot. There are loads of choices for high-CR bruisers, but you'll want the very best, which brings me to my first suggestion: Fafnheir, Father of All Linnorms.

How would you like to be a Colossal dragon with absolutely phenomenal ability scores? Str 45, Dex 30, Con 36 before any stat-boosting items is pretty hard to top, and that's just the beginning. For senses you've got darkvision, low-light vision, scent, and a constant nonmagical true seeing. For movement you've got a 100 ft. fight speed, burrow and swim for good measure, and a constant nonmagical freedom of movement. For defense you've got at least 263 hp, a whopping +30 natural armor bonus, DR 20/cold iron and magic, SR 35, and a slew of random immunities that happens to include any and all mind-affecting effects.

Oh, and if some uppity monster gets close enough to take you on in melee, they have to deal with your five excellent natural attacks - plus grab, constrict, and a nasty poison that slams them with fire damage while draining all their ability scores at once. And if that's not enough Assume Supernatural Ability lets you use that breath weapon for a 90-ft. cone of 26d10 fire damage that can also deafen creatures or blow them away or zap them with a bolt of lightning.

This simulacrum would be surprisingly convenient for a spellcaster, given that it's a twelve ton, 120-ft beast. As a creature of the dragon type it can perform the verbal and somatic components of spellcasting just fine, and when size becomes an issue you can simply use an alter self spell or greater hat of disguise to shrink down to something more manageable while still retaining many of the form's benefits.

Still, you might not be thinking of something quite so massive, so let's tone it down a little... and by down I mean up, because my next suggestion is the Great Old One Bokrug.

Bokrug is quite possibly the highest CR creature available with your caster level, and for good reason. He's much smaller than Fafnheir and with lower Str and Dex scores, but his Con is even higher. His senses are likewise excellent, with blindsight out to range of 120 ft. You don't get a means of flight without SLAs - but you're a caster, you can just toss on overland flight at the start of the day.

You'll still be terrifying in melee combat, of course: five great natural attacks, grab, constrict, a maddening Wis poison, the whole deal. But what really makes this simulacrum worth it is the defensive abilities. This creature has even more immunities than the linnorm, including classics like mind-affecting and new ones like ability damage, death effects, and poison. You won't need to eat, drink, or breathe. Better hp at 322, and you don't just get a +18 natural armor bonus to AC, you also get a +10 insight bonus that also applies to your initiative. DR 15/epic and lawful, SR 38, fast healing 20 - the list goes on and on.

You even have auras of toxic breath and unspeakable presence to weaken and confuse your enemies - speaking of which, your friends might want to stay a safe distance away until they invest in some protective gear. And all of these so far are automatic abilities. You can use your Assume Supernatural Ability to pick up telepathy, so you can inflict your insanity on any target within 100 ft. as a standard action.

Meanwhile, Bokrug can speak so verbal components won't be a problem, and while your ability to perform somatic components is less clear I'm sure you can come up with a workaround if it turns out to be an issue.

Then again, it might be time to consider the possibility that you don't particularly want to turn into a giant lizard of death. After all, your current choice of an erinyes suggests some preference for generally humanoid forms. And besides, who needs all those tentacles and poison fangs? You'll be spending most of your time casting spells anyway.

Which brings me to my third and final suggestion, and probably the one I would be most tempted to choose: a maharaja rakshasa.

Not only is this creature much smaller and less obtrusive than the other choices, with it's roughly humanoid form, it also has a much lower CR - so it might seem at first to be an odd choice.

It has a few solid perks, of course, that are visible right off the bat. Darkvision. All-around vision, so you can't be flanked. DR 20/good and piercing, SR 35. A nice little flight speed. But nothing that shows why it rises to the level of the others, not with a mere 155 hp and +13 natural armor bonus, a nice but not outstanding Str 27, Dex 28, Con 30.

And then you see it: extra initiative. When possessing your maharaja simulacrum you get to role initiative twice - on the higher count you take your turn, and on the lower count you get an extra standard action.

Let me say that again, in case you missed it. TWO. STANDARD. ACTIONS. PER. ROUND. You just effectively doubled your spellcasting output in a single stroke, never mind the chance to spam hexes that never run out. Keep your Colossal linnorms, this critter is a spellcaster's dream.

And since that's an automatic ability, you've still got several options for your Assume Supernatural Ability feat. You could get a free action detect thoughts you can use as much as you want to become the ultimate mind reader, without any of the visible manifestations to reveal you. You could get the at-will ability to change shape into any humanoid, becoming a master of disguise.

Or you could take an even cooler route and make your simulacrum of a rakshasa rajadhiraja, the upgraded form of the maharaja. Not only would your simulacrum get additional hit dice and thus hp, it would also gain the amazing Reincarnate ability that you can poach with your feat. It's basically a free reincarnate every day except it brings someone back with no negative levels and in any form of your choosing with only a size constraint. If you can get that ability, it could have endless potential.

So, thoughts?

Edit: A creature with dual initiative might be an alternate means for improving your action economy, if your GM rules that mythic abilities can be retained by simulacra. So that would mean an apkallu, davana titan, elohim, mythic hydra, ophiotaurus, or something with the agile template.

As per the Paladin hard stats, they HAVE TO be Lawful Good, AND are divinely powered, Gorum is neither... add to that the comparison with clerics who have to be within one alignmenet shift of their sponsoring deity... it is then logical that a paladin's deity has to be Good, Lowful, or both, and can in no way be evil or chaotic, Gorum is Chaotic, ergo ineligible to be worshipped by paladins.. Druids are not free from this alignment restriction either, since they must be within one step of true Neutral.

Yeah... clerics have to be within one step of their deity's alignment, because the rules for clerics say so. The rules for paladins don't say anything of the sort - not in their "Alignment" field, not in their code of conduct. Without a rule saying otherwise, there's nothing stopping a lawful good paladin from worshiping a chaotic deity.

Same with druids: they have to be within one step of true neutral, but there's nothing restricting the deities they can worship. A chaotic neutral druid is perfectly capable of worshiping a lawful good deity if they so desire.

Also, worshipping a formless "Divine Force", like clerics can do (at least in 3.xx, I don't know if that option is allowed in PF) lets you choose your alignment freely, but being a divine class, and worshipping a being that is definitely at odds with your own stand on ethics, is not allowable. That being would demand that you adopt a fairlyh close stand to its own before bestowing its gifts

First of all, a deity doesn't have to "bestow its gifts" on a paladin worshiper. As was already mentioned, paladins don't get their power from specific deities, they get it from "the divine forces of law and good." So they can just pick a deity and worship it just like a fighter can, without needing anything in return.

Second, though, it's entirely plausible that a deity would offer power to someone with a very different ethos if they think it could draw them closer to the deity's worldview. Evil beings trying to tempt heroes by giving them power is a classic literary trope, and there's no reason it couldn't apply to other alignments as well.

Honestly, I'm more confused why you'd even want to worship Gorum heavily as a paladin.

I mean, there's a goddess of just and honorable warfare sitting right there but instead you'd rather worship Khorne minus the throne of skulls for your champion of good and righteousness. Okay then...

"There are two things I need to do good in this world: the will, and the power.

I have the will. I don't need some ancient book of scripture to tell me to help those in need, I feel the urgency of it in my heart. I will surround myself with friends and allies who share my conviction, so that I may never be swayed from doing what is right.

Gorum, Our Lord in Iron, provides the power. He is present in every sword ever raised to defend the innocent, every shield ever braced to ward against destruction. He is not good, he is not evil, he is nothing more or less than martial prowess itself, and it is through him that I will gain the strength I need to fight for a better world."

Also: have you seen Iomedae's paladin code? It's filled with all sorts of silly restrictions like "death before dishonor" and "never refuse a challenge" that someone who's actually concerned with winning might very well want to avoid.

Technically yes, a none Divine character can worship what ever god they want?

It's not even limited to non-divine characters - clerics, inquisitors, and warpriests are the only ones required to be within one step of their deity. Other divine casters like druids, oracles, and even paladins have no such restriction, unless your GM decides to house-rule one.

For instance, I'm currently playing a neutral good adept who for story reasons knowingly worships and receives divine spells from a chaotic evil demon lord... and it's working great.

Int check: 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (8) + 1 = 9 Well, whatever that check was for, I'm pretty sure he just failed.

Before turning back into the town, Perrin kneels down to inspect the body of the fallen chieftain. He finds a few potions and pieces of jewelry that he can't yet identify, a pile of papers that he can't yet read, and two more vials of that liquid fire that reduced the karak to ashes.

As he steps back toward the gate, Perrin hears a loud crunching sound beneath his feet. Looking down, he sees a small pile of gravel lying next to an empty suit of leather armor. He bends down and plucks a small amulet from the rubble, slowly draping it over his neck as he chokes back the lump in his throat.

With that, he strides quickly over to where Mel is at work treating the Brooksiders. He joins her without a word and starts to bandage Roger Tomfoot, his eyes never lifting from the task at hand. The doctor continues on in this way for about half an hour, at which point he stands and clears his throat. "Can we, um, gather everyone together? I should be able to heal you all at once."

Pebbles moves into position by the gate alongside Vors, holding his spear at the ready. He pauses for a moment, motionless, then slowly turns his head to face the man beside him. The creature reaches out a rocky hand with surprising gentleness and rests it softly on Vors' shoulder, filling his mind with a strange clarity. Using his guidance spell-like ability. Then Pebbles seems to suddenly snap out of it, gripping his spear with both hands and turning away to stare fiercely at the gate.

Erin jumps down from her mount and kneels over Pogug, releasing the catch on her other sheath as she does so. "Mortals are sloppy and fragile, so we come prepared." As she speaks, her right hand closes around a stick of wood last seen in the first arena, when she and her familiar were lying bloody on the ground. She presses the wand to Pogug's lacerated skull and closes her eyes in concentration, muttering the proper command word. Casting infernal healing on Pogug from the wand, granting him fast healing 1 for ten rounds.

Perrin kneels down to look the child in the eye and smiles gently. "I can." He takes a pebble from the ground and clasps the child's hand in his, softly pressing the pebble into their palm. "Because there are rules about what happens when you get chopped up, rules about how much it hurts and how long it takes to heal." Pure water suddenly rushes through their fingers, springing from the air itself. "And I can break them." When he lets go of the pebble, it is glowing with a soft golden light. "As long as your daddy is still breathing, I promise I can make him better."

I now want to see all hymns renamed "god theme songs."

You could separate melee classes based on whether they can make full-attack actions while moving and not. If any class can get Pounce from picking Kitsune that can elevate nearly all of them.

Hmm the Kitsune may be a new Go-to race for classes. Too bad it adds to charisma and subtracts from strength. If you reversed that it would be excellent.

Or you could be a Dex-based urban bloodrager and the stats will be just perfect.

Polymorph spells might be the way to go here, with a wand of monstrous physique II to turn into a tikbalang. Or maybe just go catfolk and cast pouncing fury, usable with greater bloodrage from level 11 on.

Of course, nothing can beat the sheer glory of a kitsune bloodrager with Vulpine Pounce.

Evasion will work against anything that gets a reflex save.

Not quite. Evasion only works against effects that allow a Reflex save for half damage. If someone with evasion makes their save against tar pool or blistering invective, they'll still be taking damage from it.

Honestly, these don't seem to be "shenanigans" so much as "using an ability exactly how it's meant to be used." If a character has put significant investment into being supernaturally good at dodging certain types attacks, then they should absolutely be able to get away with risks that would be deadly for a normal human. If they can't, then what's the point of having the ability?

Example: The roof collapses on top of the PC's for 40 damage.

I mean, that sort of environmental damage is entirely up to the GM. If you don't want there to be a save, don't allow a save. If you say there's a Reflex save for half damage, then evasion should obviously work. Note that if you're using the environmental rules for cave-ins and collapses, even a character with evasion who makes their save can be buried under the rubble and take continuous damage until they're freed.

Example 2: character is wearing full plate and standing in knee deep water, but has a ring of Evasion. A trap (or whatever) is triggered and everyone in the water is struck by a Lightning Bolt (spell or natural).

Well, per the environmental rules for thunderstorms, natural lightning doesn't actually allow a Reflex save. But if you've decided it does, or it comes from the lightning bolt spell, then yeah, evasion should apply. Again, that's literally why the ability exists. It's a magical ring, say they jumped three feet in the air if you want to.

Example 3: I spent the last 30 minutes arguing with the DM that Spider Climb will allow me to climb the slippery frozen water fall. About 300 ft up the side of the waterfall it is hit with a fireball and the whole thing shatters dropping tons of ice to the ground.

Falling damage doesn't allow a Reflex save, and shattering ice is up to you, but for the fireball there's no reason not to let them avoid the damage.

Example 4: I rub myself down in in highly flammable grease before engaging the fire breathing dragon.

Yep, dodging draconic breath weapons is a perfectly legitimate use of evasion.

Really, if you don't want a high Reflex save and evasion to protect them from certain dangers, then confront them with dangers that don't allow a Reflex save for half damage. It's as simple as that.

"Why is you great sword weilding fighter friend taking to a rodent.... and following it's orders?"

(Shrugs)"I seems to know more than the sorcerer, so why not?"

Maybe even enough to know that neither turtles nor hedgehogs are rodents.

Ordinarily, yes. But in this case there are specific rules for incorporeal creatures within objects, and they trump the general rules for calculating concealment and line of sight.

It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge.

flight is the means to get into the air and moving around once your there, so you fly up as soon as you stop moving you are no longer flying you are floating(if using magic) or hovering(if not using magic) so yes a creature with a dex of 0 cant fly but they don't need to to be able to float

No, any creature that loses all actions can’t take an action to attempt a Fly check to hover in place and thus automatically falls. That includes a paralyzed, stunned, or dazed creature. Magical flight doesn’t act any differently, even for paralysis, as it isn’t a purely mental action. A creature with 0 Dexterity can’t fly, and paralysis sets a creature’s Dexterity to 0.

Avoron wrote:

Lady-J wrote:

magical flight like the fly spell just makes you float its the power of the magic that is making you stay in the air so limitations on the body should have no effect, many other means of magical flight are also just mental control so again holding the body in place does nothing, while there might be some magically granted flight that is based on physical movement were this faq would apply that ruling not all magical flight works the same way

That's an interesting argument. I wonder if there's an FAQ that addresses it.

note how i said there would be some that fall under the faq but if you are suspended in air via magic and you cant move you would still be suspended in air via magic the magic isn't going away just because you can no longer move

No, any creature that loses all actions can’t take an action to attempt a Fly check to hover in place and thus automatically falls. That includes a paralyzed, stunned, or dazed creature. Magical flight doesn’t act any differently, even for paralysis, as it isn’t a purely mental action. A creature with 0 Dexterity can’t fly, and paralysis sets a creature’s Dexterity to 0.

magical flight like the fly spell just makes you float its the power of the magic that is making you stay in the air so limitations on the body should have no effect, many other means of magical flight are also just mental control so again holding the body in place does nothing, while there might be some magically granted flight that is based on physical movement were this faq would apply that ruling not all magical flight works the same way

That's an interesting argument. I wonder if there's an FAQ that addresses it.

No, any creature that loses all actions can’t take an action to attempt a Fly check to hover in place and thus automatically falls. That includes a paralyzed, stunned, or dazed creature. Magical flight doesn’t act any differently, even for paralysis, as it isn’t a purely mental action. A creature with 0 Dexterity can’t fly, and paralysis sets a creature’s Dexterity to 0.

Huh.

If you don't want to use the spell, the domain, or an earth elemental form, then your options are all pretty limited. You could take VMC stone oracle, deep earth sorcerer, or kobold sorcerer. You could take Greater Eldritch Heritage with the deep earth or kobold bloodlines. You could be an oread and take the Oread Earth Glider feat. You could buy a xorn robe or a ring of stony flesh. Or you could cast summon elemental steed.

You cannot bestow amnesia with Bestow Curse.

Yep! You totally can.

Amnesia isn’t something the regular list of options can do.

Yep! It totally is.

Bestow curse can also inflict a single insanity on a foe, although in this case the insanity is also a curse.

AMNESIA

It inflicts a -4 penalty on Will saves and all skill checks and takes away your memories, causing you to lose all class abilities, feats, and skill ranks.

Yeah, it's ridiculously overpowered. But it's there.

Topple Spell requires a Force spell and Weapon Mastery feats require Weapon Focus which can only be used on Ray Spells.

Actually, we do have a published example of a creature taking Improved Critical (touch), so it seems like Weapon Focus (ranged touch) should be plausible as well.

Er, that's not right if you are using early fire-arms. Loading a one-handed or two-handed fire-arm is a standard action. Rapid re-load and alchemical cartridges both reduce loading time to move action, then to swift action. You get one swift action per turn, period.

Nope.

The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm).

Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action), but they tend to be unstable.

Simulacra can indeed suffer. A paladin simulacrum forced to murder children because his CE creator told him to will not only suffer emotionally for the act, but will also fall and lose his paladin powers. He will loath his existence, his master, but be wholly unable to do anything about it. If that's not suffering, than I must not know the meaning of the word.

The game developers have made it abundantly clear time and time again that simulacrum are treated as creatures in every way, except where specifically noted by the spell. They feel. They live. They hurt. Etc.

Oh, I'm fully aware that the simulacra would be people, that they'd be capable of suffering. In fact, I think I'd be able to comprehend their personhood a bit more fully than I can ever comprehend anyone else's. They're copies of me, you see. Copies of my mind, sculpted from ice and snow.

And that's why I know they wouldn't be suffering, at least not at first. If woke up to find that I was one of billions of copies of myself, set with the task of turning this world into a utopia, well, I'm pretty sure I would be more or less okay with that.

Well said! That said, I'm switching sides now. Why? It's in the username. You, I think, would refer to it as 'steelmanning.'

Lovely, let's go.

I can actually see a use for Dispel Magic- getting rid of your own non-dismissable spells if you mess up. Far from a top choice, but not quite as useless as other stuff.

Yeah, when you're using spells like polymorph any object to achieve complex results it might be nice to have an "off" switch.